Smelly Brown Algae (not diatoms)

[Conceyted]

Last month I moved my 90 gallon mostly sps tank to a new apartment. We were fairly unprepared since it was our first tank move (and we even plotted out what we would do). In the end we ended up moving with very minimal losses but during the move we did have some rtning going on. Within the first week half of our sps lost some color (which was expected) and a few pieces rtned slightly. The rtning ceased after a day or two or stable tank conditions and We clipped the branches that had rtned. The corals have been growing PERFECT and most if not all of the clipped ends have been recovered with new growth. However, for that one week is smelled HORRIBLE in here. I am sure everyone knows how a dead or dying sps smells. Now think of that times 100 because our entire apartment smelled like that :hmm3:

Well, we worked through it and did a water change or two and its been going well. Well, right before we made the move I had noticed a little bit of brown algae start to come about in the tank. It was not out of hand, but upon checking the old RODI filters I noticed I was getting like 30 tds from the rodi. So, I had a new system waiting at the new apartment so i could one again have 0 tds water. I also have a sillicate DI cartridge at the end of the system to eliminate sillicates from our water as well. Well, the new system has been producing 0 tds water since we moved the tank. We have done two water changes (35-45 gallons each) in the past month with the 0tds water and all we have had is more and more brown algae. There is also a little bit of what looks to be cyano, but its darker and pretty much black. I think the two algae are related.

If I leave the pumps off for 5-10 minutes and stop circulating the water, I can see 1000s of algae strands in the water just free floating around. It legs go of the rocks and floats in the water. If I take a turkey baster and baste the rocks with water the algae will easily blow off. The glass gets this algae and it comes right off in less than one swoop of the cleaning magnet. I can even create enough flow with the cleaning magnet to push some algae off the starboard. But while this algae does not cling on very well, it is very persistent. Also, I have noticed since this algae became prominent my skimmer (H&S A150) has foamed like no other. Sometimes it foams to the point that I have foam coming out of the top air holes int he skimmer cup and it has even been known to push that heavy acrylic lid right off the top of the skimmer enough to ooze some foam out. The worst part of all, it smells LIKE DEAD CORAL! This algae is horrible smelling. If I take out any of the small rocks in the tank and smell them, or if I work with any equipment like my pumps etc to clean them, I smell this horrid smelling algae. I recently checked my tank parameters and they are as follows:

77.8-79.0 degrees
1.0245 SG
8.2-8.3 PH
0 Nitrates
0 Ammonia
0 Phosphates
385 Calcium

I generally would just keep doing water changes, but it doesn't appear to be working? The only other issue I have noticed is that I recently got a shipment of snails in from Reeftopia. These snails were super sluggish and I have yet to see one attach itself to a rock or to the glass or starboard. They are alive because they do come out of their shells, but they do not stick to anything, nor do they move around and eat any algae. Both of my tangs seem to be eating the algae off the rocks, so I cant imagine the snails don't eat this stuff, I am just not getting it. What is going on? Here are some pictures so you all can see it how I see it.

http://fish.conceyted.com/algae/IMG_0563.jpg
http://fish.conceyted.com/algae/IMG_0571.jpg
http://fish.conceyted.com/algae/IMG_0573.jpg
http://fish.conceyted.com/algae/IMG_0574.jpg
http://fish.conceyted.com/algae/IMG_0575.jpg
http://fish.conceyted.com/algae/IMG_0576.jpg
http://fish.conceyted.com/algae/IMG_0581.jpg
http://fish.conceyted.com/algae/IMG_0582.jpg
http://fish.conceyted.com/algae/IMG_0584.jpg

Any help is appreciated. I am almost to the point where I am going to take out every single rock and scrub it down individually and then dip it in fresh water and do a 100% water change all at once. HELP!

[Peter Eichler]

Dinoflagellates

Here are a couple articles that will help.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/eb/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

Limiting nutrients by as much as posible and raising your PH can go a long way. If possible skim a little wetter and keep in mind that waterchanges can sometimes just make dino problems worse. Add a good amount of activated carbon and change it about once a week til the problem clears up. A ferrous oxide based phosphate removed could be of help as well. Lastly, shorten your photoperiod. They can be tricky but I had a small outbreak that I was able to knock out in about a week.

[Conceyted]

Woo you are awesome. Thank you, Peter!

[Peter Eichler]

You're welcome, glad I could help. Forgot to mention, manual removal of it will help with nutrient export, and will also limit the potential for toxins.

[kwaters]

Not to steal the thread, but this is what I have...I think it may be similar....to date, I have not been able to ID....I don't think it is hair algae...I have plenty of that in my 700 gal pond outside...I know exactly what that looks like.

Here are my pics...

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w163/kwaters_photos/fish002.jpg

My tank and set up is currently odor free...except for the skim-mate from the skimmer (which I change every two to three days)

Again, sorry to high jack...just wondering if I am dealing with the same thing.

[Peter Eichler]

Hard to tell for sure from that pic but it looks to me like you might have a less severe outbreak of dinos and it appears to be growing on another species of algae. Do air bubbles form in the brown algae and on the rocks during the day? If they don't it might be diatoms, I'd especially expect diatoms over dinos if it's a newer tank. That other species might be Bryopsis but it's really tough to tell from that pic. Is it a little feathery looking when you examine it up close?

[Frick-n-Frags]

It looks like several micros mixed up in there including dinos and cyano. I get the strings of brown snot when I get a nutrient fueled bloom. i think those are some kind of dino's too.


edit: that tank is screaming "excess nutrients" I think I would be siphoning all that algae out through a filter, (water back into the sump) every day from now to forever, and also skip feeding for 3-4 days every 3-4 days. you badly need to export some nutrients somehow. also, a squad of astrea snails can stay ontop of the beginnings of micro outbreaks. your sand is probably being the nitrate factory.

[Frick-n-Frags]

kwaters has micros growing on some kind of turf algae. I see this when the underneath algae is dying and the very quick/opportunistic micros start growing at that nutrient site immediately - IF this is the only place this is happening.

I also see this when a micro is just overrunning everything too.

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10282828#post10282828 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Frick-n-Frags
It looks like several micros mixed up in there including dinos and cyano. I get the strings of brown snot when I get a nutrient fueled bloom. i think those are some kind of dino's too.


edit: that tank is screaming "excess nutrients" I think I would be siphoning all that algae out through a filter, (water back into the sump) every day from now to forever, and also skip feeding for 3-4 days every 3-4 days. you badly need to export some nutrients somehow. also, a squad of astrea snails can stay ontop of the beginnings of micro outbreaks. your sand is probably being the nitrate factory.

Actually, I think his Dinos were brought on by a mini cycle when he moved his tank. Nutrients may have been/be a little high but I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with his system and if his test results are correct it's not excess nitrates or phosphates. The waterchanges he did after the move may have helped fuel the dinos rather than help get rid of them. Astrea snails or any other snail won't do much good for his problem since the dinos are toxic and most snails will not eat the stuff. If they do it's not uncommon to have a bunch of dead snails during a dino outbreak. Lastly, he doesn't have any sand, it's a starboard tank.

[Frick-n-Frags]

OH DANG heh no sand? got me. those must be hills of algae :D

I am having trouble understanding the term "mild outbreak" or "mild cycle" when referring to that system

there is no cycle. his LR has all the bacteria. he has a huge nutrient spike from some nitrate factory (post-cycle stuff) a dead fish, ton of uneaten food, pocket of ancient nastiness stirred up.
you don't cycle when you change the glass walls on your LR (understand that a BB move is just that, replace glass walls, business as usual)


snails eat everything if they get it when its small. also, he has no snails. I say, that wouldn't have happened if he would have had
an astrea per gallon in there when he made the move.
don't even try calling a cerith a snail. one astrea = 5 ceriths


and REGARDLESS of the path to this point, why would you advise him not to religiously siphon that since it has bound nutrients in it? and especially a BB :D that puke will come right out, as in gone from the water column.

anyway, good luck and remove nutrients (nutrients out > nutrients in and you win)

[Conceyted]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10283270#post10283270 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Frick-n-Frags
OH DANG heh no sand? got me. those must be hills of algae :D

I am having trouble understanding the term "mild outbreak" or "mild cycle" when referring to that system

there is no cycle. his LR has all the bacteria. he has a huge nutrient spike from some nitrate factory (post-cycle stuff) a dead fish, ton of uneaten food, pocket of ancient nastiness stirred up.
you don't cycle when you change the glass walls on your LR (understand that a BB move is just that, replace glass walls, business as usual)


snails eat everything if they get it when its small. also, he has no snails. I say, that wouldn't have happened if he would have had
an astrea per gallon in there when he made the move.
don't even try calling a cerith a snail. one astrea = 5 ceriths


and REGARDLESS of the path to this point, why would you advise him not to religiously siphon that since it has bound nutrients in it? and especially a BB :D that puke will come right out, as in gone from the water column.

anyway, good luck and remove nutrients (nutrients out > nutrients in and you win) First of all, and try your best not to take offense to this, Why are you speaking for me? Where was it said I had no snails? Before the move I had about 150 astrea and about 40 cerith snails. I bought more snails after the move (another 100 astrea, 20 turbos, and 48 cerith) when I started noticing algae and a dwindling number of snails. Secondly, I skim VERY wet at all times. It is very unlikely ANYTHING in my tank is causing nitrates. All of my tests have proved your nitrate factory theory wrong because I have ZERO nitrates. The last time I had nitrates was during the startup cycle of this tank a year and a half ago.

On a lighter note, you are both right that I do need to do some manual removal along with a few other techniques. I did a lot of reading and also read all the articles you linked above. Very great information! They recommend raising PH to about 8.5 as well as manual removal, lowering my photo period to 4 hours, and skimming very wet. Unfortunately, when the new Reefkeeper2 firmware came out from Digital Aquatics I updated and lost my PH calibration. Also, what really baffles my mind is that I use a kalk reactor which runs all my auto top off water through it as it tops off the tank. My ph (while I do not have an accurate reading atm) should be fairly high already. I guess that is only half the battle. After reading up more I went ahead and ordered a huge bucket of kalk, some ph calibration solution and ozone calibration solution. They also suggested carbon and ozone to help filter out excess nutrients. I run ozone already in low doses but I will pump that up some while also running carbon. I forgot the carbon in my Marine Depot order so I will most likely have to go buy some from a LFS.

One question I do have is about the photo period. When it says 4 hours, does that mean actinics and halides for 4 hours? Because I like my actinics to come on before my halides. If not the fish seem to freak out.

My total plan of attack is to calibrate my PH probe and orp probe. Fill my kalk reactor with tons of carbon (not that it matters, it will only dose the usual) and then maintain a PH of 8.5. Meanwhile, I will skim overly wet, reduce my photo period to 4 hours, increase ozone production from 7mv to 12-15mv, and also every two days I will shut my pumps off for 15-20 minutes to manually remove any floating algae and algae off the rocks. I will be syphoning only algae out and the water will be syphoned back into my sump. That way, there will only be nutrient export and I wont be adding new sea water to top the tank off. My expectations is that all of this takes 1-2 weeks to begin working. And once it begins to work hopefully the sluggish snails will come back alive. If not, I will be then removing my snails and once I know all of the dynoflagelletes are out I will order a new package of snails and slowly begin to lower ph back to normal levels.

PS: Thank you both for your help so far. I woudl be very lost without you guys.

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10283270#post10283270 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Frick-n-Frags
OH DANG heh no sand? got me. those must be hills of algae :D

I am having trouble understanding the term "mild outbreak" or "mild cycle" when referring to that system

there is no cycle. his LR has all the bacteria. he has a huge nutrient spike from some nitrate factory (post-cycle stuff) a dead fish, ton of uneaten food, pocket of ancient nastiness stirred up.
you don't cycle when you change the glass walls on your LR (understand that a BB move is just that, replace glass walls, business as usual)


snails eat everything if they get it when its small. also, he has no snails. I say, that wouldn't have happened if he would have had
an astrea per gallon in there when he made the move.
don't even try calling a cerith a snail. one astrea = 5 ceriths


and REGARDLESS of the path to this point, why would you advise him not to religiously siphon that since it has bound nutrients in it? and especially a BB :D that puke will come right out, as in gone from the water column.

anyway, good luck and remove nutrients (nutrients out > nutrients in and you win)

Completely removing your rockwork will often cause a mini cycle. It's not just bacteria being present, it's far more complex than that. The flow pattern going over the rockwork that has changed and the different exposures the rock to light will cause a tank to process nutrients differently. Various microrganisms will die back in certain areas and it will take a little time for it to fully populate other areas. It's similar to how even though a new tank might have undetectable nitrates, phosphates, ammonia, and nitrites it will still get cycles of algae in the early months of the system. I don't know why you're so hung up on the "nitrate factory" thing. There are plenty of instances where nuisance alage thrives in tanks with undetectable nitrates and phosphates. Though in a lot of those cases those elements are just being consumed quickly by the nuisance algae. Regardless, it has been talked about how trace elements and various other nutrients besides phospahte and nitrate can fuel dinos.

Con covered the snail thing pretty well, but it's important to point out again that dinos can be very toxic to snails. Also, dinos can be so aggressive that they will grow over something that has been in a tank for an hour or so. I'm sorry, but even if they did eat it and it wasn't toxic, no amount of snails is going to keep up with that.

Lastly, point out exactly where I advised against him siphoning out the dinos? If you read the thread again you'll see I suggested he siphon it out before you posted. In fact I think when he siphons it out he'll see a much smaller amount come back.

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10283596#post10283596 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Conceyted
First of all, and try your best not to take offense to this, Why are you speaking for me? Where was it said I had no snails? Before the move I had about 150 astrea and about 40 cerith snails. I bought more snails after the move (another 100 astrea, 20 turbos, and 48 cerith) when I started noticing algae and a dwindling number of snails. Secondly, I skim VERY wet at all times. It is very unlikely ANYTHING in my tank is causing nitrates. All of my tests have proved your nitrate factory theory wrong because I have ZERO nitrates. The last time I had nitrates was during the startup cycle of this tank a year and a half ago.

On a lighter note, you are both right that I do need to do some manual removal along with a few other techniques. I did a lot of reading and also read all the articles you linked above. Very great information! They recommend raising PH to about 8.5 as well as manual removal, lowering my photo period to 4 hours, and skimming very wet. Unfortunately, when the new Reefkeeper2 firmware came out from Digital Aquatics I updated and lost my PH calibration. Also, what really baffles my mind is that I use a kalk reactor which runs all my auto top off water through it as it tops off the tank. My ph (while I do not have an accurate reading atm) should be fairly high already. I guess that is only half the battle. After reading up more I went ahead and ordered a huge bucket of kalk, some ph calibration solution and ozone calibration solution. They also suggested carbon and ozone to help filter out excess nutrients. I run ozone already in low doses but I will pump that up some while also running carbon. I forgot the carbon in my Marine Depot order so I will most likely have to go buy some from a LFS.

One question I do have is about the photo period. When it says 4 hours, does that mean actinics and halides for 4 hours? Because I like my actinics to come on before my halides. If not the fish seem to freak out.

My total plan of attack is to calibrate my PH probe and orp probe. Fill my kalk reactor with tons of carbon (not that it matters, it will only dose the usual) and then maintain a PH of 8.5. Meanwhile, I will skim overly wet, reduce my photo period to 4 hours, increase ozone production from 7mv to 12-15mv, and also every two days I will shut my pumps off for 15-20 minutes to manually remove any floating algae and algae off the rocks. I will be syphoning only algae out and the water will be syphoned back into my sump. That way, there will only be nutrient export and I wont be adding new sea water to top the tank off. My expectations is that all of this takes 1-2 weeks to begin working. And once it begins to work hopefully the sluggish snails will come back alive. If not, I will be then removing my snails and once I know all of the dynoflagelletes are out I will order a new package of snails and slowly begin to lower ph back to normal levels.

PS: Thank you both for your help so far. I woudl be very lost without you guys.

Sounds like a good plan of action. I'd get at least the GAC in place before siphoning the algae out. Just get some Marineland Black Diamond carbon from a LFS, it's good carbon and is cleaner and works better than a lot of the more expensive stuff. If you don't already have one pick up a filter sock to siphon the algae water into, it may also be beneficial to place the filter sock (when you're siphoning) near your skimmer intake in the sump.

As for the lighting, I only cut back my light cycle by an hour or two because I just didn't want to make too many changes and I didn't want to have to deal with slowing ramping my light cycle back up. I don't blame you for going with the suggested 4 hours, but I just had a feeling I'd be fine with a small decrease. I also wanted the stuff to continue to grow so it could choke itself out by taking in nutrients. The last thing I wanted was the shortened light cycle to give me false hope that it was gone and have it come back strong once I returned my light cycle to normal. That's what I did, take it as you will :)

If you're lucky, you could see huge improvements in just a few days and have it nearly knocked out within a week. Lets not talk about what happens if you're unlucky just yet ;)

[Peter Eichler]

How are things looking?

[carolina reefer]

Tagging along. I have the same stuff growing in my tank and look forward to your progress.

[Conceyted]

Pretty much the same. I have been gathering up my items I will need to tackle the algae. I am waiting on my ph calibration fluid and my big bucket of kalk. I don't want to start treatment before I can lower my PH because that seems to be the key in killing this algae. I have, however, lowered the photo period and bumped up my ozone production. And I am skimming super wet and thats doing well. Thanks for checking up on me, I will post again when I begin the treatment (any day now)

[allengy]

I'm tagging along also because I have been fighting that stuff for months. I tried a better skimmer and skimming wet, doubled my flow, reduced feeding (only two fish), cut back my lighting, replaced the bulbs and adding more snails. I did notice that my Astrea snails started disappearing some time ago. I added more and they died. Only the Astrea snails. The Mexican Turbos and Nassarius snails seem to be ok. Little by little it's getting better but whatever is causing the brown stuff is still there. Oh, I also tried shutting off the lights for a few days. That would make a lot of it disappear but it came right back once I turned the lights back on.

[Conceyted]

Id recommend raising your PH like I plan to do. Seems to be what really kills it, the rest of it is just helping kill it.

[Conceyted]

Alright its almost 2 months later. Here is an update. After a month of elevated ph I have noticed a very drastic decrease in the population of the Dinoflagellates. There is still a very little bit left, but to my amazement, many of my snails have "woken back up" and are back active on the rocks and glass. I am tempted but reluctant to buy more snails just yet, but I plan to as soon as I am sure the algae has been conquered. I am also tempted to do a water change, but like I stated previously, I am reluctant. One thing I have noticed is my tank will no longer sustain a level above 8.2 PH. During the day the most the pH will get to is 8.2 and at night down to 7.8 or so. I have tried dosing massive amounts of kalkwasser only to have the tank lower its pH back down to 8.0 +/- .2 by the next day. I am currently doing some reading on this so I can raise my pH levels back up one last time and kill off any of the algae that is left. My skimmer is running normal again and not freaking out with all the algae floating in the water column, the smell is gone from the house and mostly from the water, and the tank looks clear and fairly clean. I will post some updated pictures tonight if I get around to it. Overall I am very pleased with the results. Here is a list of what I did to conquer this algae:

-Raised PH to ~ 8.6+
-Increased Ozone output from 8mg/hr to 12/17/22/30mg/hr
-Increased skimmer production by allowing the skimmer to skim extremely wet and emptying about .5 gallons per day of skimmate from the cup.
-Added a total of 1.5 medium sized containers of Marineland Black Diamond Carbon to the sump
-Manually syphoned algae out of the water column once the PH took the algae down some.
-Scraped the algae off the glass as much as possible and used a turkey baster to keep it off all pumps and rocks as much as possible.
-Used patience with persistence to conquer this hellish algae.
-And finally, used LARGE, 3 wick scented candles and sometimes Ozium air sanitizer spray to keep the stench to a minimum.

[Conceyted]

Updated pictures of the tank after fighting the dinos.

http://fish.conceyted.com/images/IMG_1493.jpg
http://fish.conceyted.com/images/IMG_1494.jpg
http://fish.conceyted.com/images/IMG_1495.jpg

[KurtsReef]

Do you run a UV unit? I have noticed a very dramatic drop in algae since installing one.

My Nitrates and Phosphates were zero at the time as well, this may be another angle of attack by getting a UV going.

[KurtsReef]

Do you run a UV unit? I have noticed a very dramatic drop in algae since installing one.

My Nitrates and Phosphates were zero at the time as well, this may be another angle of attack by getting a UV going.

[Conceyted]

I do not run UV, only ozone. I have toyed with the idea of a UV unit, but I never took the steps to implement one. I guess it is worth a shot.

[Conceyted]

After some research on UV I remember why I don't run it. Since I run ozone in my tank there is really no reason to run UV. I run a very small amount of ozone and it is really there to buffer the water and make it crystal clear. When I have problems like this, I slowly increase the output of my ozonizer to compensate. I can't imagine a UV sterilizer would help any more than what my Ozone is already doing.

[allengy]

I started using a UV sterilizer a couple of months ago. The amount of brown junk growing in my tank has been drastrictly reduced but I can't say for sure what caused it. I tried most of what I read here to try and get rid of the algae. The last thing I tried was the UV sterilizer. One thing I did notice is that my water got noticeably clearer after I started using it. Another thing is that my skimmer acted like it was breaking in all over again.

[JackKerouac]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10603199#post10603199 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Conceyted
Alright its almost 2 months later. Here is an update. After a month of elevated ph I have noticed a very drastic decrease in the population of the Dinoflagellates. There is still a very little bit left, but to my amazement, many of my snails have "woken back up" and are back active on the rocks and glass. I am tempted but reluctant to buy more snails just yet, but I plan to as soon as I am sure the algae has been conquered. I am also tempted to do a water change, but like I stated previously, I am reluctant. One thing I have noticed is my tank will no longer sustain a level above 8.2 PH. During the day the most the pH will get to is 8.2 and at night down to 7.8 or so. I have tried dosing massive amounts of kalkwasser only to have the tank lower its pH back down to 8.0 +/- .2 by the next day. I am currently doing some reading on this so I can raise my pH levels back up one last time and kill off any of the algae that is left. My skimmer is running normal again and not freaking out with all the algae floating in the water column, the smell is gone from the house and mostly from the water, and the tank looks clear and fairly clean. I will post some updated pictures tonight if I get around to it. Overall I am very pleased with the results. Here is a list of what I did to conquer this algae:

-Raised PH to ~ 8.6+
-Increased Ozone output from 8mg/hr to 12/17/22/30mg/hr
-Increased skimmer production by allowing the skimmer to skim extremely wet and emptying about .5 gallons per day of skimmate from the cup.
-Added a total of 1.5 medium sized containers of Marineland Black Diamond Carbon to the sump
-Manually syphoned algae out of the water column once the PH took the algae down some.
-Scraped the algae off the glass as much as possible and used a turkey baster to keep it off all pumps and rocks as much as possible.
-Used patience with persistence to conquer this hellish algae.
-And finally, used LARGE, 3 wick scented candles and sometimes Ozium air sanitizer spray to keep the stench to a minimum.

very useful !Thanks :)

[Conceyted]

I am glad to help.