Fish list for my 210

[pinkie]

I was hoping to get an opinion on whether I am overstocked or not.

My fish were young when I got them... most of them have grown a bit but they are all still pretty small.

I have a 210 gallon with a 50 gallon sump. My levels of ammonia and nitrite are 0 and my nitrate is at about 30 (only because my tap water is 30, but I just bought a RO/DI system which will arrive in a few days so that will be at 0 soon too). As for right now I know my bioload is fine. My biggest thing is, I have a semi-aggressive tank and I'd like to avoid fighting. Right now I've never seen anyone nip fins, just some minor chasing but after all it is semi-aggressive so that's to be expected.

Here's my fish list:

22" Snowflake Eel (he's a big boy but spends all day in the rocks, just does some swimming at night while the others are sleeping in the rocks. Very passive)
4" Magestic Angelfish (she has the most attitude and chases the others more than the other fish but she isn't mean... yet. I also assume she is the oldest in the tank because I bought her fully changed and she hasn't grown much, if at all in the 7 months I've had her)
4.5" Emperor Angelfish (hangs out with the Magestic constantly. Hopefully won't change much but from what I've heard it will drastically. He's growing like a weed and is starting to change colors)
8" Volitan Lionfish (only really swims during feeding time. Also growing like a weed, nearly doubled in size in 2 months)
5" Dogface Pufferfish (very passive, also spends most of his time sitting in caves)
5" Spiny Box Pufferfish (couldn't be more passive, has never bothered anyone. Pretty active, spends most of his time swimming across the tank)
5" Harlequin Tuskfish (highly active, but also extremely passive. Only savage when it comes to inverts!)
3" Lawnmower Blenny (no one bugs him)
3" Cleaner Wrasse (still alive after 6 months amazingly. Eats well but I wish I wouldn't have bought him)

I know right now things are fine in the tank but I'm more worried about down the road, especially with the two angels. Besides the obvious, do you see this being a major concern in the near future? Everyone is super healthy, has plenty of swimming room, eats wonderfully, has great coloration, etc. I've had them all for 6-8 months and haven't seen any reason to start separating anyone, but I wouldn't hesitate to do so if it is the best thing for the tank.

I also use mechanical filtration that I change regularly just to get debris out and do very heavy skimming and have LR in the sump to help with nitrification without compromising swimming room.

Here's my equipment list:

Berlin Turbo Classic protein skimmer
All-Glass model 4 sump
Mag Drive 2400 pump
Turbo Twist 18 watt UV sterilizer
Compact fluorescent lighting
250 watt Stealth heater
200 pounds of live rock
250+ pounds of live sand

And the RO system is on the way, medium grade model from Filter Guys.

Thanks for your opinions!

[DamnPepShrimp]

What are you looking to add? I have my queen and emperor in a 125g and they get along fine. I am switching to more aggressive though when I get a bigger tank, so they will go in place of a passer. I don't see a problem with having 2 angels. Every fish is different, if there becomes a problem down the road, then obviously one has to go. But what are you looking to add? You tank sounds nicely stocked and no problems, I would not want to upset that balance. I know it is hard to not mess with anything, but sometimes that is the best. Maybe when you upgrade (with those two angels full grown, it is inevitable) then you can add another fish or so. Maybe a tang, I didn't see any tangs listed, get one to help with algae control. You could add in a tang now and get away with it I think.

[pinkie]

I'm not looking to add anything to my current tank. I'm very happy with my fish stock. I'm just concerned with having to get a second tank and split the fish or if I need to find a new home for 1 of them (most likely one of the angels, as much as I would hate to do that). Thank you for your response.

[ralphie16]

thats a very very heavy bioload. you got some of the largest fish kept in home aquariums (puffers, large angels). many of your fish are fast growing and many of them will reach 40-50 cm.

[pinkie]

Yeah, very true. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage the bioload a lot easier than aggression. I can always add a larger sump, or upgrade the protein skimmer to an overpowered one, and increase my cleanup crew. In addition I can increase my water changes, and with a 75gpd RO/DI system that shouldn't be an issue. I just want to ensure that they all have enough swimming room and don't get aggressive towards each other due to a lack of space. With only having 3-4 moderately active fish in a 210 gallon tank hopefully they will all be able to find their own area.

[LisaD]

You are very responsible to be thinking of these issues now. I don't agree with ralphie that you are "very very" overstocked. IMO if you beef up your filtration (sump and skimmer) I think you may be okay for the life of these fish.

I think the adult sizes you might expect would be (based on wetwebmedia and/or fishbase):

Snowflake Eel - Typically to two feet in captivity and the wild, but recorded at thirty two inches maximum length - yours is probably close to maximum size.

Majestic Angelfish - less than 12 inches, should be okay for life in your tank if there are not aggression issues.

Emperor Angelfish - to about 15 inches max. This is one you may have to move to a larger tank eventually.

Volitan Lionfish - up to maximum size about 15". May have to move, but they aren't all that active, so you may be okay.

Dogface Pufferfish - usually around 12" max - not the largest of the puffers.

Spiny Box Pufferfish - don't know what species you have, but most of the spiny box puffers (as opposed to porcs) don't exceed 10" as adults.

Harlequin Tuskfish - usually 12 inches max. A gentle fish, and a great show fish.

Lawnmower Blenny - I don't think these get over 5 or 6 inches. May be eventually be eaten, but they are pretty good at evading predators.

Cleaner Wrasse - few inches - amazing you kept it alive so long. Minimal bioload.

You have seven large fish in a 210. They are not especially active, and may or may not show aggression as they age. At the most, I predict you may need to remove one angel and one of the puffers. I'd beef up the filtration, keep water quality high, and watch for aggression or stress.

Good luck!

[pinkie]

Ideally I would love to have a 500 gallon when I move to a new house but that probably won't happen for 2-3 more years and my emperor would probably be full-sized by then.

I totally agree that if a separation need occur it will be one of the angels and a puffer. So I was planning on if there was an issue, getting a 150 gallon tank and putting the Magestic Angel, the Dogface Puffer and then maybe getting a bird wrasse for that tank. But would the 210 still be too small for the emperor and the rest? If so, what would be a suitable home... 300 gallons then leave a few in the 210?

Thanks so much for your help.

[55semireef]

You could do that if you really want to keep all your fish. The cheapest route would be to get rid of the few fish when they get close to their max size. However, if you want to keep all your fish I would just wait and make the upgrade. I think 350 gallons would be able to host all your current inhabitants in your 210 for life.

[pinkie]

Thanks, very good advice. I would love a 350, the only reason I was leaning towards two tanks though is because if I run into issues of aggression between the two angels for example, I would love to have the opportunity of separating them. But that is something I will seriously consider in the future. Thanks again!

[55semireef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10288603#post10288603 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pinkie
Thanks, very good advice. I would love a 350, the only reason I was leaning towards two tanks though is because if I run into issues of aggression between the two angels for example, I would love to have the opportunity of separating them. But that is something I will seriously consider in the future. Thanks again!

No problem. ;)

[Titan*69]

If the two angels start to fight they'll have to be separated; I don't think adding a foot or two to your current tank would stop it.

Your list seems fine, but bigger is always better.

[55semireef]

This is not really much of a debate except for where each of us would draw the line. I think a 350 would be sufficient. Really, though, these numbers are pretty arbitrary without considering the dimensions of the tank. I'll bet that there are 350 gallons and 400 gallons with the same length and width just different heights. As most people know, added height will not add much swimming room for this type of fish. I do wonder, sometimes, how someone comes to the conclusion that a 350 gallon will not work while a 400 is acceptable. Is that extra 50 gallons really going to make that much of a difference to the fish after being caught from the ocean? And how do we know that is where to draw the line?

[Titan*69]

Personal judgment, information, and the experiences of fellow hobbiests.

IMO Height, width and length are all equally important. Some fish spend all their time swimming in topwater, others pace end to end, and some scour tank bottom all over for free meals.

Everytime I see a tank 3' or wider I get envious of the endless aquascaping options.

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10286146#post10286146 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LisaD
You are very responsible to be thinking of these issues now. I don't agree with ralphie that you are "very very" overstocked. IMO if you beef up your filtration (sump and skimmer) I think you may be okay for the life of these fish.

I think the adult sizes you might expect would be (based on wetwebmedia and/or fishbase):

Snowflake Eel - Typically to two feet in captivity and the wild, but recorded at thirty two inches maximum length - yours is probably close to maximum size.

Majestic Angelfish - less than 12 inches, should be okay for life in your tank if there are not aggression issues.

Emperor Angelfish - to about 15 inches max. This is one you may have to move to a larger tank eventually.

Volitan Lionfish - up to maximum size about 15". May have to move, but they aren't all that active, so you may be okay.

Dogface Pufferfish - usually around 12" max - not the largest of the puffers.

Spiny Box Pufferfish - don't know what species you have, but most of the spiny box puffers (as opposed to porcs) don't exceed 10" as adults.

Harlequin Tuskfish - usually 12 inches max. A gentle fish, and a great show fish.

Lawnmower Blenny - I don't think these get over 5 or 6 inches. May be eventually be eaten, but they are pretty good at evading predators.

Cleaner Wrasse - few inches - amazing you kept it alive so long. Minimal bioload.

You have seven large fish in a 210. They are not especially active, and may or may not show aggression as they age. At the most, I predict you may need to remove one angel and one of the puffers. I'd beef up the filtration, keep water quality high, and watch for aggression or stress.

Good luck!

7 large fish in a 210 is not a heavy heavy bioload? ok.....

I would hope very much for the orginal poster to post back on his tank in a year or two when his fish start getting larger and tell us how all of his fish are doing. Most likely he will be having a very difficult time keeping up his water quality, there will have been a disease outbreak or two, with possibly a couple of deaths. There will most likely be injuries as the fish may show aggression towards food competitors even though in a less populated tank this would not be happening.

Listen I would love to keep 7 large fish in my 220 but its not going to be a good place to live for the fish. I recommend 2-3 max large fish in a tank of that size with several more "smaller" type fish.

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10284459#post10284459 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pinkie
I was hoping to get an opinion on whether I am overstocked or not.........

.......but I wouldn't hesitate to do so if it is the best thing for the tank.

Thanks for your opinions!

Do what pleases you but you asked for opinions about whats best for your tank and I provided them. Don't worry if you don't follow my advice, most everyone on this board fights against advice that they don't want to hear and wait for the "ok" from someone that will tell them to go ahead do what you want. Looks like its human nature.

[pinkie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10296520#post10296520 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ralphie16
Do what pleases you but you asked for opinions about whats best for your tank and I provided them. Don't worry if you don't follow my advice, most everyone on this board fights against advice that they don't want to hear and wait for the "ok" from someone that will tell them to go ahead do what you want. Looks like its human nature.

I never listed my fish then waited for someone else to call me out on being overstocked. I posted asking if I was, which kind of says I already feel like I am. I also have mentioned several times I have been considering buying a 150+. So never have I been waiting for someone to say "nope keep them all in the 210". I was posting waiting for people to confirm I was overstocked so I don't buy another big tank unnecessarily and to give advice about what might happen between the fish as they grow and who to put in what tank, etc.

[55semireef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10295527#post10295527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Titan*69
Personal judgment, information, and the experiences of fellow hobbiests.

IMO Height, width and length are all equally important. Some fish spend all their time swimming in topwater, others pace end to end, and some scour tank bottom all over for free meals.

Everytime I see a tank 3' or wider I get envious of the endless aquascaping options.


Oh I am not saying height isn't important (because it is). I was saying that height was probably the least important if I compared them all together. If you really had to twist my arm, I would be more comfortable placing two angles in a larger shallow tank than a tank of the same water volume but with more standard demensions. Again, everyone draws the line differently. I do agree with what Ralphie is saying though.

[LisaD]

I just found this old thread doing a search for a different one. Pinkie, 13 months later, how is your tank doing?

I'm interested because I too have a 210 that is close to or at overstocked. Even with a skimmer upgrade and current water quality and good health, I am pretty sure I need to find homes for of the larger fish as they all grow.

I'd like to hear how things have been going, how many and what size fish you have, did you upgrade the skimmer?

[55semireef]

I am interested as well to know how the tank is doing.

[pinkie]

Sorry for the extreme delay in responding, it has been a while since I have been on the boards because I haven't really had any problems until now. As far as my tank, it was going extremely well....until today. I got a leak in my tank, and am now having to get rid of all my fish....worst nightmare.

But anyways, as far as my tank condition up until this morning...

The fish have done extremely well, no health problems, no fighting. The only issue I had was a minor case of HLLE on my spinybox puffer from stray electricity but once I fixed the problem, the puffer completely healed and is as healthy as can be. I will update my stocking list in bold with the changes....

22" Snowflake Eel (he's a big boy but spends all day in the rocks, just does some swimming at night while the others are sleeping in the rocks. Very passive) Still the same old big passive Eel. Hasn't grown, and don't expect him to.

4" Majestic Angelfish (she has the most attitude and chases the others more than the other fish but she isn't mean... yet. I also assume she is the oldest in the tank because I bought her fully changed and she hasn't grown much, if at all in the 7 months I've had her) She has REALLY mellowed out, much to my surprise. She doesn't bother anyone and has grown about an inch since this last post.

4.5" Emperor Angelfish (hangs out with the Magestic constantly. Hopefully won't change much but from what I've heard it will drastically. He's growing like a weed and is starting to change colors) Much to my surprise/happiness he still gets along with the Majestic Angelfish. No fighting at all, and he has fully changed into his adult colors. Very beautiful fish, and he has almost doubled in size. He is about 7" and thick.

8" Volitan Lionfish (only really swims during feeding time. Also growing like a weed, nearly doubled in size in 2 months) Still huge, now about 10" and as happy/healthy as ever.

5" Dogface Pufferfish (very passive, also spends most of his time sitting in caves) He has grown some, but his personality hasn't. Very passive, great fish.

5" Spiny Box Pufferfish (couldn't be more passive, has never bothered anyone. Pretty active, spends most of his time swimming across the tank) Still like my favorite fish. I have absolutely nothing negative to say about him.

5" Harlequin Tuskfish (highly active, but also extremely passive. Only savage when it comes to inverts!) Not much change. Hasn't grown a lot, still active, eats well, and loves eating inverts.

3" Lawnmower Blenny (no one bugs him) My only negative news. One day he just up and disappeared. My assumption is that he was eaten by an eel. I assume this because I would have seen the bulge in the Lionfish, and there were no fish remains what so ever.

3" Cleaner Wrasse (still alive after 6 months amazingly. Eats well but I wish I wouldn't have bought him) even more amazingly he is still alive and well after 2 years. He eats prepared food, and gets along great in the tank.

For which I am sure I will be criticized for, I have since added a few fish as well. Here are the new fish:

22" Zebra Eel - Same personality as the Snowflake, great tankmate.

6" Stars and Stripes Puffer and...
8" Guinea Fowl Puffer - Both of these guys have been quick growers. Had them for about 6 months so far.

3" Niger Trigger - Small, active, and keeps to himself.

2" Hawkfish - No one bothers him what so ever.

I am sure most of you will be thinking "Why on earth would someone get more fish if they thought they were overstocked in the first place?" Well, to be honest, it didn't look full. I figured I would be the best judge as to what overstocked was based on tank parameters, aggression, etc. In my opinion, all of the fish get along EXTREMELY well and are EXTREMELY healthy.

The tank parameters are good, but not perfect. Ammonia is zero, Nitrites are 0, and Nitrates are expectantly a little high. However, the only negative effect I have seen over the past 6 months (since I haven't gotten any new fish in 6 months) has been algae. Personally, I am positive (if I didn't have a tank leak) I would not get another fish for the 210g as it now seems full, not overstocked, but full. I don't expect people to agree, but that is my experience as best I can share it.

[DamnPepShrimp]

I'd definitely say your overstocked now, as you know most would agree already but in the end its up to you and your fish. If everything gets along and is happy, then good. You will run into a problem down the road, you got two puffers that get HUGE!!! Especially that stars and stripes, the niger will get HUGE as well. Definitely expect to upgrade shortly down the road, or get rid of a few fish once they outgrow your 210g.

oh btw, thanks for the update, now can we get some pics? :D

[pinkie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13672682#post13672682 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DamnPepShrimp
I'd definitely say your overstocked now, as you know most would agree already but in the end its up to you and your fish. If everything gets along and is happy, then good. You will run into a problem down the road, you got two puffers that get HUGE!!! Especially that stars and stripes, the niger will get HUGE as well. Definitely expect to upgrade shortly down the road, or get rid of a few fish once they outgrow your 210g.

oh btw, thanks for the update, now can we get some pics? :D

No offense at all but please read the whole post. :) I have a tank leak & I'm getting rid of every fish I have today.

[LisaD]

Really sorry to hear about your tank leak. How is it going keeping water contained and finding homes for the fish?

I appreciate the update. (I had PM'd him to ask for one).

Will you start another tank? I understand it's a moot point now, but I have to agree with DamnPepShrimp's post in principle, anyway. I have six fish in my 210 right now, but I don't think I can put many more in the tank.

I have:

emperor angel (~6")
black tip grouper (~8")
porcupine puffer (~5", will replace with dogface, it's a long story)
blue spotted rabbitfish (~6")
zebra moray (3+ feet)
Brazilian dragon moray (2 feet)

None of my fish are adult sized, and while my tank doesn't look that "full" I can't see adding more than a couple fish. I may be getting a good sized volitan lion from a friend. There are certainly more fish I'd like to keep. However, I think I will be topped out at that point, and will need to eventually find the zebra moray a home if I want to add even one more fish after that. Just mentioning this as my feelings about what is fully stocked in my tank have changed as my fish grew.

[DamnPepShrimp]

I don't know how I missed that! I am sorry! That's devastating! Good luck with everything, hopefully you can find a new tank and keep your fish? Not an option? I get attached to them, so I hate seeing them go.

[pinkie]

When I consider if I tank was overstocked, I personally think of why it would be considered overstocked. As for aggression, I didn't have any, ever. Having enough swimming room, I guess that is kinda subjective, but as far as I could tell no one ever seemed to have an issue with it. They always had plenty of room to swim around, never appeared to be stressed in any way by this, or pace any more than any fish that are alone in a 210g. Causing tank to crash due to disease/ammonia? I never once had a disease or ammonia spike any worse than a minor ich outbreak when I got my 3rd fish. I did have some issues with algae, but since it never negatively effected the fish, that is really just a cosmetic issue to me, and it gave the fish something to nibble on between meals. Also, a lot of that algae could have been managed better with added water changes, upgraded filtration, etc.

I guess that is what criteria I used in determining whether or not the tank was overstocked. Since I never had an issue with one of those things, I never really felt it was overstocked. With Overstocked being such a subjective opinion, I tried to use some information to determine whether or not I was overstocked.

Then again, looking at it every day perhaps I just got used to it, and one more fish never looked like much more, and I had a few too many fish, but again, I never really saw any of the signs of overstocking aside from algae.

As for the crash, thank you for the kind words. The tank is now completely empty, and I guess I will sell it as a giant terrarium. I won't be setting up a tank in the foreseeable future. The only tank I still have is my little biocube with my jawfish and pair of perculas that I have had for about 18 months. If I do ever get a new large tank, It probably won't be for several years, and will set up the tank my wife always wanted, a large tank with a clown trigger, an eel, and nothing else.

I found a fish store that would take my fish in, and they are selling them there. I had a few people from these boards call me about buying my fish, but if you are interested, they have them on display at Tropi-quatics in Lombard, IL.

Very tough to see them go, I was very attached to a couple of them in particular, especially the lionfish in my avatar.

[pinkie]

LisaD, why do you not add one more fish to your current list? Do you see signs of overstocking, is it a feeling?

[LisaD]

I am adding At least one more fish - trading out the porc for a black dogface (assuming it survives treatment for disease), and most likely adding a large lionfish. This fish by itself is probably equivalent to a whole bunch of smaller fish in the space it takes up and the waste it produces.

This porcupine puffer is leaving because it killed my last lionfish.

The tank has a lot of bioload. I could have a lot of 4" fish in this tank, but these fish carry a lot more weight per inch than smaller fish. Water quality is good, but my fish really are my pets, and I want them to have as much space as I can give them.

[pinkie]

Assuming everything goes as well then as it is now, why not one more? =)

[LisaD]

I've kept marine aquariums for over 30 years. I have more experience than I care to share with "just one more" syndrome. Sometimes all it takes to provoke a disease or aggression outbreak is adding just one more when everything is looking good. I feel like I definitely push the envelope on stocking, but I'm only willing to take risks up to a point with my fish.