What bottled supliments should I give my coral?

[plawrence5]

I have a colt coral and another type of similar coral. What type of bottled stuff should I be giving them? I have been dumping CoralAccel (kent marine) and Liquid Calcium (Kent Marine) as well as this other green coral/ filter feeder adative that I can not think of the name of right now..:confused:
I am all out of this stuff- what should I be buying to add to my tank to increase coral growth, and keep them healthy? Any preferred websites to get this stuff from? Cheep?

[marduc]

Regular water changes will replenish any trace elements, aside form that just add calcium and alkalinity supplements as needed (test for both, don''t just blindly add!!) Occasionally perhaps magnesium should be added, aside from that bottled supplements are not needed.


What chemicals must be supplemented (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/index.php)


Cheap alternatives for adding the above three (Ca, Alk, Mg): Improved do it yourself recipe (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/index.php)

another cheap alternative is to dose lime (kalkwasser) for balanced Ca and Alk, and use either the magflake mentioned in the above article, or epsom salts for occasional Mg supplements.

A cardinal rule is Don't add it if you don't test for it

[drummereef]

I agree completely. Water changes and keeping your Alkalinity, Caclium, and Magnesium in balance are key. Read those articles marduc posted! :)

[Randall_James]

A good quality plankton is a nice addition. DTs' or BioPlankton seem to both be good products. (your corals will do much better with feeding than element dosing I bet)

other supplements? probably a waste of money unless you are testing for levels (never add what you do not test for) Colt and other soft corals do not use much in the way of CA in the first place. I would agree that water changes should provide plenty of CA and trace elements.

[loosecannon]

Marduc:I am with you. Not needed. Thay make moore problums than thay fix. P.S. dt`s or bio plankton are not needed ether!

[rbrusletto]

I target feed once a week with a mixture of cyclopeeze and BioPlankton, when I top off, I add two drops of kent marine iodine. My corals(all) have never had any problem and always look great! For what it's worth though, I do either a 10% WC every week, or 20% every other week. All others(including calc) stay at great levels!

[bertoni]

Dissolved iodine isn't known to be required by the organisms we keep, on average, so I don't dose that anymore. Haven't seen a change since I stopped, which was years ago. Overdosing can cause problems, though, since iodine can be very toxic.

[bertoni]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm

Ooops, meant to post that link.

[seapug]

Wow, interesting contrast of responses from last week when I posted my "Don't worry about feeding your corals" thread. I got lambasted for advocating NOT dumping extra junk in your tank to "feed" corals. Same basic subject 4 days later and only one reply suggesting phytoplankton dosing.... where were all you "clean water" guys last week when I needed you? 8)

Here's what happened when I posted about the same topic:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1154478

[greenbean36191]

There's a difference between supplements and food. Corals need protein. They don't need heavy metals in the water.

[KEstep]

If you want to go cheap dose Kalkwasser as your topoff water. If you do small biweekly water changes your corals will have plenty to work with. As for feeding, I feed the corals if the tank can handle the extra load (filter wise). If not they get whatever the fish are fed. Most of the tanks i care for only receive Kalk and nothing else. If I dose anything else it is either for calcium and alk. Test before you add always. and that annoying saying "If you don't test for it dont add it" holds true.

[Reefbox]

I do:
10-15% water change ea. week ( i think this is key)

test water

adjust and maintain alk & ca. to optimum levels with the homemade cheap 2 part solution

my ph stays good at 8.3 w/ this method.

target feed w cyclopeeze/zooplankton 2-3 times wk and add some phytoplankton for my herbivorous corals and pods 1-2 week


That's it

I used to add all that stuff the lfs used to sale me, but not anymore...lol

[loosecannon]

Hay, Kestep: If you keep givn great info like dat your gona put yo self out of work!

[seapug]

I operate on the assumption my tank on it's cleanest day is still a sewer compared to the ocean. My corals (softies, Zoas, mushrooms, misc. lps, acros) all grow like crazy without any target feeding. I don't have a fuge but have insane numbers of mysids that take over the tank at night. I'm sure the corals feed on those, too. They do capture small pieces of frozen food when the fish are fed, but apart from that I just keep the water quality high with frequent small changes and maintaining Calcium and Alk levels. Good strong lighting goes a long way as well.

[plawrence5]

On that note, I just got metal halides- two 150w 14k, my colt coral is not looking good lately, I just figured it was due to my clarkies knack for beating up on it as it "hosts" it. I am starting to think that it is getting too much light though. I have it placed directly under one of the lights, about mid height in the tank. Do you think that is too much light?

[Randall_James]

Lighting changes can have dire effects on some animals if not acclimated to the change. Using eggcrate will diffuse the light a bit and help them adapt. Shorter lighting periods or moving them will help too. If it is just one coral having issues, you might just move it to a darker area

Although not "required" dosing of phytoplankton a couple times a week seems to help the vitality of most tanks IME.

Can corals live without it? I think most can do without, do they do better with ? I think so.. Can your fish live without you feeding them? actually most can do fairly well for a month or more, but we feed them because it is better for them to eat regularly. Coral has a much slower metabolism but I think it still benefits from feeding.

The key (IMO) is the correct food for the coral. Many corals can do nothing with Zooplankton or Cyclopeeze as it is just too large. Other corals need chopped mysis, you just gotta do some research on each.

I use phytoplankton as it feeds the largest number of organisms in my tanks (copepods, amphipods, filter feeding corals, sponges, clams) that in turn can make food for larger animals.

[greenbean36191]

As far as nutrients go, our tanks may or may not be sewers. You would be surprised how little we know about the availability or role of nutrients on reefs. As far as food availability goes our tanks are deserts. Good lighting will give most corals all the carbs they need, but they can't live on potatoes alone. To grow and repair tissue they need amino acids too. They get those amino acids (and any trace elements they need) from food, not the water. A large portion, and sometimes maybe all (Xenia?), of that food is bacteria, but most get the majority of there meat from zooplankton.

[Aquarist007]

I grow my own phytoplankton and add about half a cup a day.
I also have a refug loaded with copepods which are introduced into the tank 24/7.
With lps you are better to place lower from the lights then higher. I have had two bleached brain corals by being placed two close to the halides.
As far as chemicals---magnesium , calcium and reef build when necessary for the alk level
Water changes take care of the rest

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10309790#post10309790 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
As far as nutrients go, our tanks may or may not be sewers. You would be surprised how little we know about the availability or role of nutrients on reefs. As far as food availability goes our tanks are deserts. Good lighting will give most corals all the carbs they need, but they can't live on potatoes alone. To grow and repair tissue they need amino acids too. They get those amino acids (and any trace elements they need) from food, not the water. A large portion, and sometimes maybe all (Xenia?), of that food is bacteria, but most get the majority of there meat from zooplankton.

I am assuming zooplankton is cyclopeeze-----I have read a number of threads lately where guys have stated that cyclopeeze is too big for corals and clams
I am introducing zooplankton through a refugium--if that is the case, is feeding cyclopeeze a waste of time?

[plawrence5]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10309792#post10309792 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
I grow my own phytoplankton and add about half a cup a day.
I also have a refug loaded with copepods which are introduced into the tank 24/7.
With lps you are better to place lower from the lights then higher. I have had two bleached brain corals by being placed two close to the halides.
As far as chemicals---magnesium , calcium and reef build when necessary for the alk level
Water changes take care of the rest

How do you grow your own phytoplankton? I would like to learn how to do this. Can you please explain what set up you need and resources?

[hyperfocal]

Here's a Phyto how-to: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/breeder.htm

The only 'supplement' I add (outside of two-part Ca/Alk) is Selcon; I jjust soak food in it a couple times a week before feeding.

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10309822#post10309822 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
I am assuming zooplankton is cyclopeeze-----I have read a number of threads lately where guys have stated that cyclopeeze is too big for corals and clams
I am introducing zooplankton through a refugium--if that is the case, is feeding cyclopeeze a waste of time? Depends on what you are trying to feed. Clams, sponges, feather dusters, many SPS, many softies are pure filter feeders that require food that is very small. (Phytoplankton). Cyclopeeze and Zooplanktons are too large for them.
Many other corals just love the larger foods (Acans,and other LPS are great for this). You need to determine what is in the tank and feed accordingly.

Cyclopeeze is great food for many things all the same, fish, inverts and a million other things eat it up. So I doubt it is a wasted feeding, I would certainly add phyto to the mix however in most cases. (just my opinion, your milage may vary :) )

as far as growing your own phyto.... growing phyto is easy, growing "Good" phyto is not so easy. It is a learning process same as your display tank... (I buy mine)

[greenbean36191]

Zooplankton is any animal-like life floating around in the water. In our tanks that ranges from things the size of microscopic ciliates all the way up to mysis. Cyclopeeze, which is a copepod is zooplankton too. Different corals eat different size prey throughout the whole spectrum of sizes. For some, cyclopeeze is an appropriate size, for some it's too big. Clams are highly selective feeders and won't accept zooplankton as food. Even the smallest zooplankton is too big for them. They feed on phyto which is much smaller.

Depending on what the zooplankton is that you're feeding from the fuge adding cyclopeeze may or may not be a waste. Basically you want a range of food sizes since some larger mouthed corals tend to catch larger bits of food better while smaller ones can't eat the big stuff.

[Aquarist007]

[i]<a href=showthread.php?

as far as growing your own phyto.... growing phyto is easy, growing "Good" phyto is not so easy. It is a learning process same as your display tank... (I buy mine) [/B]

What is the difference between good phyto and bad phyto and how do you know your homemade stuff is good?

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10310604#post10310604 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by plawrence5
How do you grow your own phytoplankton? I would like to learn how to do this. Can you please explain what set up you need and resources?

I basically followed the article quoted below

I started with one large plastic pop bottle. I used water from the tank and about 180 ml of phyto solution I got from a friend. I added 10 ml of miracle grow liquid fertilizer.
I drilled a hole in the lid and inserted an air line. I used an 8 dollar clip on light from home depot.
I keep the light on for 18 hrs a day. It takes a week for the bottle to go dark green. At this point I harvested half for my tanks and started two more large pop bottles.
My station now looks like the one in the picture.

[Randall_James]

Most phyto you purchase is actually a combination of phytoplanktons.

You can not grow a blend as one type will out compete the others and you will end up with a single species. They all need their own homes until fully grown.

Also if you do not let the life cycle of the phyto progress completely, you will end up dumping nitrates into your display(the phyto fertilizer if you will) Commercial producers centrifuge the phyto out of suspension and either blend it as a gooey paste for resale (PhytoFeast) or add fresh water to the blend and sell it (DT's does this I think).

[hyperfocal]

I saw a presentation last summer from a Reed Mariculture rep -- he stated that their Phyto-Feast product is superior to products like DTs since Phyto-Feast is made from brown algae, rather than the green DT's uses. According to him, the cell-walls on brown algae are much thinner than on green and are therefore much more easily digested by tank inhabitants.

Anyone in the know have an opinion on this?

[bertoni]

There are endless debates on phytoplankton quality, but one refereed article showed DT's did better for Tridacna clam feeding than the other products tested, which include Phyto-Feast.

[spinninmidwater]

so with phytoplankton, do u have to target feed tridacna clam & other corals?

[bertoni]

I don't target feed phytoplankton. That might help in some situations, but for a 40g tank, I doubt that it matters.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10313091#post10313091 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
I don't target feed phytoplankton. That might help in some situations, but for a 40g tank, I doubt that it matters.

just turn off your pump/skimmer for 45 min but leave a power head on to circulate it.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10312531#post10312531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
Most phyto you purchase is actually a combination of phytoplanktons.

You can not grow a blend as one type will out compete the others and you will end up with a single species. They all need their own homes until fully grown.

Also if you do not let the life cycle of the phyto progress completely, you will end up dumping nitrates into your display(the phyto fertilizer if you will) Commercial producers centrifuge the phyto out of suspension and either blend it as a gooey paste for resale (PhytoFeast) or add fresh water to the blend and sell it (DT's does this I think).

very interesting---gee now I realize the algae coating the front glass 24 hrs after adding a cup of the home brew :)
Glad you pointed this out because we are using miracle grow liquid as a nutrient because it is more available here.

thanks for your input---I haven't been able to find a good discussion on home brew phyto since I started using it

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10312966#post10312966 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spinninmidwater
so with phytoplankton, do u have to target feed tridacna clam & other corals?

I would not target feed clams period--they are filter feeders and can do that very effeciently.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10305964#post10305964 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seapug
Wow, interesting contrast of responses from last week when I posted my "Don't worry about feeding your corals" thread. I got lambasted for advocating NOT dumping extra junk in your tank to "feed" corals. Same basic subject 4 days later and only one reply suggesting phytoplankton dosing.... where were all you "clean water" guys last week when I needed you? 8)

Here's what happened when I posted about the same topic:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1154478

yeah--I just read the entire thread--some great points that would be appropriate here so I left a post to see if they would join in here
Thanks
Scott

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10317404#post10317404 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
I would not target feed clams period--they are filter feeders and can do that very effeciently. mostly true but IME small clams <2" it has been my luck that target feeding seems to help a good amount. I move them to a container (coolwhip container) and "green" the water. They clean up the water in pretty short order and then back to their spot in display

I lost a number of small clams and after I started doing this, they quit dying on me. After they hit 2.5-3" they seem to do just fine. I wish I had more than just this "incidental" info on this but thought I would add it in.

[spinninmidwater]

hey Randall, thanks for your input. so how often do u move-and-feed your small clams in this manner?

i'm planning on raising one and for my tank size i'd definitely go for the smaller ones but are they too delicate from your experience? or should i go for a bigger one for starter?

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10323009#post10323009 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
mostly true but IME small clams <2" it has been my luck that target feeding seems to help a good amount. I move them to a container (coolwhip container) and "green" the water. They clean up the water in pretty short order and then back to their spot in display

I lost a number of small clams and after I started doing this, they quit dying on me. After they hit 2.5-3" they seem to do just fine. I wish I had more than just this "incidental" info on this but thought I would add it in.

you are a 100 percent correct---the little ones need to be fed like that---I think it is because there algae haven't developed to the point to sustain rapid growth by pure photosynthesis.

spinninmidwater---I would suggest every day depending on the size and weaning after they start to grow

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10312531#post10312531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
Most phyto you purchase is actually a combination of phytoplanktons.

You can not grow a blend as one type will out compete the others and you will end up with a single species. They all need their own homes until fully grown.

Also if you do not let the life cycle of the phyto progress completely, you will end up dumping nitrates into your display(the phyto fertilizer if you will) Commercial producers centrifuge the phyto out of suspension and either blend it as a gooey paste for resale (PhytoFeast) or add fresh water to the blend and sell it (DT's does this I think).

Hi Randall: is the information below purely economic spin?

Here's a couple short blurbs from Dene's web site at Coralscaping:

This is the ultimate live phytoplankton pack! The Phyto Reef Pack covers all the basics of live phytoplankton for your reef tank! This pack contains the various phytoplanktons for both motile and non-motile algaes ranging in sizes from as low as 4 microns to 14 microns. An excellent live food package for micro-fauna, amphipods, copods, worms, feather dusters, clams,sponges, shrimps and coral! As the basic building blocks of your food web are taken care of, your water column will become alive with zooplankton as natural spawns occur! The Phtyo Reef Pack includes 1 bottle (16oz/473ml) of live Nanno448 (Nannocloropsis), 1 bottle (16oz/473ml) of live Tetra448 (Tetraselmis) and 1 bottle (16oz./473ml) of live Iso448 (Isocrysis) all bottled 24 hours before shipping! Your live phytoplankton is guaranteed farm fresh!

In addition, to being the basic building block of the food web; adding phytoplankton has the additional effect of helping to remove unwanted phosphates and nitrates; just from existing and living in the water column of your reef tank, that only live phytoplankton can accomplish. In fact, most commercially bottled phytoplankton contain more dead cells than they do live, therefore, adding to the phosphate and nitrate levels in your tank; the exact opposite to the desired removal of these waste by-products.

[bertoni]

I'm not sure I'd say "ultimate", but that's a nice assortment of phytoplankton, if the quality is high. Quality is hard to judge, though.

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10326261#post10326261 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
I'm not sure I'd say "ultimate", but that's a nice assortment of phytoplankton, if the quality is high. Quality is hard to judge, though. That's for sure...

But it certainly highlights my previous statement... Phyto is easy to make, making good phyto is not :) The entire issue of size turns into a mess when you have different animals and on top of that, knowing which eats what...

I think regardless of which commercially available product you get, it is going to typically be 2 things... way more expensive than any DIY and probably higher quality.

Key... perhaps to vary types from purchase to purchase and see if YOU can see a difference.

I doubt highly that there is a single "reliable" source for all the information needed on something like this and so you sort of need to become your own authority on what your stuff likes best.

I over a few years of trying the DIY methods (growing Nannocloropsis) and purchasing have long since decided it was worth the $.50 to .75 a day to feed store bought blends. I use DT's and PhtyoFeast on an alternating schedule. (DT's runs me around $31 per purchase and the PhytoFeast around $41.... I can get around 45-60 days out of each one

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10326412#post10326412 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
That's for sure...

But it certainly highlights my previous statement... Phyto is easy to make, making good phyto is not :) The entire issue of size turns into a mess when you have different animals and on top of that, knowing which eats what...

I think regardless of which commercially available product you get, it is going to typically be 2 things... way more expensive than any DIY and probably higher quality.

Key... perhaps to vary types from purchase to purchase and see if YOU can see a difference.

I doubt highly that there is a single "reliable" source for all the information needed on something like this and so you sort of need to become your own authority on what your stuff likes best.

I over a few years of trying the DIY methods (growing Nannocloropsis) and purchasing have long since decided it was worth the $.50 to .75 a day to feed store bought blends. I use DT's and PhtyoFeast on an alternating schedule. (DT's runs me around $31 per purchase and the PhytoFeast around $41.... I can get around 45-60 days out of each one

I hear you--good advice--to be honest I do not like the possiblity of adding anymore phosphates nitrates whatever to the tank knowlingly
For the first time ever--after two weeks of adding dyi phyto I have a slime mold problem on the substrate--this is with running a phosban reactor, great flow, great skimmer, micron filterbag etc ect.

One question---do you stop the main pump for an hour or so when you feed---I've been told that a skimmer etc kind of defeats the idea of trying to increase the level of phyto in the water column

[bertoni]

I turn off my skimmer for a few hours when I feed, but my tanks have plenty of flow and aren't heavily loaded, so oxygen isn't a problem.

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10333381#post10333381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
I turn off my skimmer for a few hours when I feed, but my tanks have plenty of flow and aren't heavily loaded, so oxygen isn't a problem. Ditto...

[Aquarist007]

Ok I am convinced to back to DT
This slim mold--I think it is that--red brown and colour--only on the bottom of the substrated--peals off it like a paint scum.
I have cut out the dyi phyto and have two power heads directed at the substrate and am running phosban
When should it clear up--or should I be doing anything else?

[Randall_James]

it will run its course, be patient and also make sure you stay on your water changes

[Gdevine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10308183#post10308183 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seapug
I operate on the assumption my tank on it's cleanest day is still a sewer compared to the ocean. My corals (softies, Zoas, mushrooms, misc. lps, acros) all grow like crazy without any target feeding. I don't have a fuge but have insane numbers of mysids that take over the tank at night. I'm sure the corals feed on those, too. They do capture small pieces of frozen food when the fish are fed, but apart from that I just keep the water quality high with frequent small changes and maintaining Calcium and Alk levels. Good strong lighting goes a long way as well.

Now that's the ticket!

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10342631#post10342631 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gdevine
Now that's the ticket!

How did you accomplish the insane levels of mysis in your tank?