Stumped! Help me fix my 90g fish situation!

[King-Kong]

Well, I am stumped! I need to cram MORE fish into my 90g BB SPS tank (I've got an ATI BM250 and SPS corals that I need to make happy) but I am having issues coming up with fish that would "work".

Here's what I currently have:
-Cinnamon clown pair (aggressive, practically killed a bannerfish, willing to relocate)
-Bartletts anthias (1 male, 2 juves -- aggressive, am getting rid of)
-Purple tang (staying, doesnt like other grazers)
-Blue/Green Chromis (staying, no issues, will kill additional chromis)
-Juvenile Lineatus Wrasse (staying, no issues)
-Male Labouteis Wrasse (staying, aggressive, but easy to catch and isolate during introduction of new fish)

10 fish total right now. I need to be closer to 20 fish (so the SPS in my tank can prosper from the higher nitrogen sources, and my skimmer can work with better efficiency). I will be left with 5 fish after I get rid of the bartletts/clowns!

I wanted to replace the Bartlett's with a nicer anthias that stays smallish, but am having difficulty finding one that fits the bill. I cant find female sunset anthias (LA says they are rare and they never get them in), I've read mixed reports on queen tiger anthias, and dispar's seem very difficult to get to feed.

The showpiece school i wan to add are some threadfin / longspine cardinals, but getting them to survive in the short term has been very difficult. I lost an entire order of 10 in under 2 weeks. My LFS ordered some for me, and their group is virtually all dead too (in less time). But, I really want this fish.. and a school of 10-15 would be glorious.

Requirements for any new fish in my tank need to be: can deal with bright light, STRONG flow (9500gph in 90g), and they need to be peaceful towards other fish to reduce stress.

Please help.. I have really exhausted my ideas!

edit to add: here are some shots of my tank to give an idea of swimming space:

http://www.d3f.org/misc/fish/90g/a11-full-tank.jpg
http://www.d3f.org/misc/fish/90g/a09-full-tank-angle.jpg
http://www.d3f.org/misc/fish/90g/a10-full-tank-side.jpg

[ACBlinky]

How about a swallowtail angel? I've got a Lamarck's in my 90g and she's wonderful. They're bold fish and can hold their own, but IME they're not aggressive. They're fairly heavy-bodied, and can reach 6-9", so if you're looking for something to add bioload a swallowtail might be a decent choice. They're not grazers, they're planktivores, so hopefully your PT wouldn't have issues - I have a YT that gets along with my Lamarck's, no issues at all.

[ClownNut]

i wont add anymore fishes. your tank is already kind overloaded as it's, unless you have a 300G+ sump filled with LR for filteration. you will have problem with 20 fishes in your tank. not just they dont have room to swim and you might find you having a hard time keep your PO4 and NO3 down.

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10398962#post10398962 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ACBlinky
How about a swallowtail angel? I've got a Lamarck's in my 90g and she's wonderful. They're bold fish and can hold their own, but IME they're not aggressive. They're fairly heavy-bodied, and can reach 6-9", so if you're looking for something to add bioload a swallowtail might be a decent choice. They're not grazers, they're planktivores, so hopefully your PT wouldn't have issues - I have a YT that gets along with my Lamarck's, no issues at all.

That's a good suggestion... so no aggression ever from the Lamarcks? What other fish is she in with? What about a pair of them? Does their aggression level change when theyre paired up?


Clownnut: thanks for the concern, but because of my tank's system and because of the skimmer placed on it, I wont have any issues with nutrients with the type of load I'm looking to add. My current bioload isnt even close to being "full", seeing as how I still have some SPS with light-ish colors and arent experiencing any algaes related to high-nutrient tanks (Ofcourse, Salifert also shows 0 phosphates, but no point in testing phosphates anyways because of the nature of the beast). Because of how my tank is run, there is no where for detritus or food to settle to "rot" and turn into a phosphate and nitrate issues. I am running a bare bottom tank with very little rock and an extremely oversized skimmer and strong flow -- the system requires a heavy bioload, and I'm never even close to it yet.

[Cozen89]

just my opinion but 20 fish in a 90 gallon seems like a lot unless they are 20 super small fish.

[honda2sk]

maybe your biofiltration is not reached but your tank size is what is your limiting factor. crowding fish increases aggression, increases stress, which all leads to decreased immune systems leading to disease outbreak and possible deaths. rethink your plans.

[ACBlinky]

King-Kong - my 90g is stocked with the following:
- Yellow tang (3")
- Lamarck's swallowtail angel (4")
- Bicolour blenny (3")
- Brazillian gramma (4")
- Sixspot sleeper goby (4")
- Orange-spot shrimp goby (2")
- Talbot's damsel (1.5")
- South Seas damsel (2")
- Ocellaris clown (2.5")

There are no issues whatsoever with aggression from the angel, but she is the undisputed queen of the tank. The tang would like to take her place, but right now it's no contest. Right from day one, when she was just a tiny thing, this angel has had a presence - the other fish recognized her dominance the moment she moved from the QT into the main tank, even those that were much larger than her and had been fighting amongst themselves.

I adore this angel; she's beautiful to watch, and though she's a thick, sturdy fish there's something distinctly ladylike about her ways. I can't say, however, whether her behaviour is typical of the species and if it would change if she were paired. I've also had her less than a year and she's still a juvenile, so there's no telling what may come in the years ahead. That said, I've never heard of Genicanthus angels being overly aggressive.

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10400348#post10400348 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by honda2sk
maybe your biofiltration is not reached but your tank size is what is your limiting factor. crowding fish increases aggression, increases stress, which all leads to decreased immune systems leading to disease outbreak and possible deaths. rethink your plans.

I realize this, hence my request for suggestions for fish which are passive.. Thats kind of the entire point of my post. Looking for well mannered fish, which can exist in large groups, and not become aggressive. 1/2 of my current bioload does not meet this requirement.

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10400569#post10400569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ACBlinky
King-Kong - my 90g is stocked with the following:
- Yellow tang (3")
- Lamarck's swallowtail angel (4")
- Bicolour blenny (3")
- Brazillian gramma (4")
- Sixspot sleeper goby (4")
- Orange-spot shrimp goby (2")
- Talbot's damsel (1.5")
- South Seas damsel (2")
- Ocellaris clown (2.5")

There are no issues whatsoever with aggression from the angel, but she is the undisputed queen of the tank. The tang would like to take her place, but right now it's no contest. Right from day one, when she was just a tiny thing, this angel has had a presence - the other fish recognized her dominance the moment she moved from the QT into the main tank, even those that were much larger than her and had been fighting amongst themselves.

I adore this angel; she's beautiful to watch, and though she's a thick, sturdy fish there's something distinctly ladylike about her ways. I can't say, however, whether her behaviour is typical of the species and if it would change if she were paired. I've also had her less than a year and she's still a juvenile, so there's no telling what may come in the years ahead. That said, I've never heard of Genicanthus angels being overly aggressive.

Thanks AC. I will add this fish as a strong contendor (especially to replace the bottomless pit that is my cinnamon clown pair!)

[honda2sk]

20 fish in a 90 gallon, no matter how docile/passive, will most likely not work out very well. it takes a very experienced aquarist to fit 20 fish into a 90 gallon peacefully. you have to take into account not only what they all eat, that they all get enough to eat (you cant have 10 fish that all rasp the algae off the rock because soon enough it will run out, or 3 different pod hunters because they will run out too), but also their environments. you have to have the perfect mix of species that inhabit all parts of the tank, from those that make burrow in substrate and hang out in them, to those that stay and hunt near the substrate, to those that live on the rocks and in tiny holes on them, to those that swim in the water column and those that go all over. its very difficult to do this.

you don't "need a high bioload" for your corals to do well. there are hundreds upon hundreds of tanks with a high coral population with minimal fish, if any at all. and your statement that you want a higher bioload so your skimmer can work better is counterintuitive. you want to put in more "garbage" so you can take out more "garbage"? i think you need to rethink what your trying to accomplish.

[King-Kong]

Honda: I think you need to read up the system I am employing (bare bottom). I dont want to sound rude, but you dont seem to have any experience with it, based on the last post you made (in reference to the bioload). There are countless examples on this, and other boards, of people with moderate bioloads having their SPS systems pale and fade away due to a lack of nitrogen sources for their corals -- I am one of them. My system is SPS dominated. I have several clams, 1 LPS, and the rest are all SPS corals. The clams will happily uptake any excess nitrate left over from excess ammonia, and the skimmer will help squash phosphates and nitrates before they get a chance to break down and showup.

Also, you'll find that skimmers such as the one I am using (ATI BM250), will have their foam heads collapse when the water doesnt contain enough skimmable organics. Mavgi is a good user to reference for this.

The alternative is for me to supplement the nitrogen demand with systems like Pappone. But, through discussion, I'd like to find a couple of large groups of small peaceful fish that could obtain the same result, without me having to adopt Pappone or a similiar methodology.

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10400132#post10400132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cozen89
just my opinion but 20 fish in a 90 gallon seems like a lot unless they are 20 super small fish.

I'm fine with small fish. Youll see I am trying to get a school of Apogon Leptcanthus (threadfin cardinals). They are about 1"-1.5" on average coming in.

Any recommendations?

[cwilson]

how about a group of 10-12 yellow tangs?? :p

seriously though, i'd go with the lemarks angel. or a waneteb (spelling). those are nice because males and females look so different, so if you got a pair, it would still provide lots of different looks and colors.

plus, ive read that their very powerful swimmers and like lots of open space. so your tank should be perfect.

good luck and let us all know what you do! :)

[SDguy]

I'd personally rethink the threadfin cardinals. They are by far the limiting factor with respect to peaceful vs. aggressive tankmates. Furthermore, I don't think cardinals in geneal have the appetites/metabolisms that you are looking for with your situation. And does anyone know how they do in VERY high flow systems?

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10404826#post10404826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
I'd personally rethink the threadfin cardinals. They are by far the limiting factor with respect to peaceful vs. aggressive tankmates. Furthermore, I don't think cardinals in geneal have the appetites/metabolisms that you are looking for with your situation. And does anyone know how they do in VERY high flow systems?

SDGuy: I know the japanese have had good success with them (Unknown flow), but I know of one user (Leonardo) who has them in his 92g BB cube with a ton of flow.

When you see them out on the wild, youll see huge groups of them sitting above coral heads, appearantly, so this tells me they can handle some significant flow.

I know that individually, they wont offer a big bioload bump, but having 10+ would be a nice little set, I think, and help with bio-load.

But, even if I disregarded the threadfins, what other small fish could I go with instead?

I may be able to get some Pseudanthias parvirostris (Sunset / Diadem anthias) from my LFS for a good price, as a replacement for the Bartletts. It's either that, or the other species we discussed; dispar, loris... or, if I disregard aggression all together, Lyretails.

[RichConley]

KingKong,

I feel your pain (and the non-helpfulness of all this "you can't keep this many fish")


Have you ever considered Barnacle blennies? Supposedly they can be kept in large groups, and are quite comical. Maybe 10 or so of them?



For those of you who dont understand, this is my friend Chris's tank (well, actually, I own the tank now, he upgraded) about a year ago. At the time this picture was taken, he had well over 30 fish in this tank, including two triggers, and 3 tangs. Hes not even running barebottom, just a big skimmer. Its a 72bow. Theres a very large group of sand sleeping wrasses (I think 6 or 7 leopards, and a couple halichoeres).

http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28597&stc=1&d=1181169893

Much of the stocking limits we keep are based on the poor skimmer technology of 10 years ago. Things are drastically different now, and there are $200 skimmers now that can hang with $2000 skimmers of 5 years ago.

[King-Kong]

Rich: Thanks for the support..

Barnacle blennies didnt even begin to cross my mind.. didnt know you could keep so many.. man that would look nuts.. 10 of those bouncing from hole to hole!

I'll do some searching with them in mind and see if I can find any examples of them being used. My only concern would be the fact that I dont have very "holey" rock, and just about 45lbs in total anyways. I would want to be sure to have spots for some to sit in. I do love blennies, though.. :)

Can you think of any other small, open water fish, that I could try? I'm not even that interested in them being pretty (the leptcanthus arent very pretty at all). It just seems many of the fish readily available in this hobby arent meant to be used in large groups... but those fish do exist in the wild!

[King-Kong]

hahaha.. this is hilarious..
I just had to post this picture I found of them:

http://www.gregrothschildphotography.com/blnys3.jpg

[CarlC]

Skip the parvirostris. This species is very docile and will easily be picked on. I have one male and three females in QT. Just walk into the room and they scatter for cover. Nothing like the other anthias I keep.

Lori's are about the same. I've had them in my tank for awhile now and they have a hard time dealing with the more aggressive dispar at feeding time. They seem to prefer to hang out with the more docile flavicauda anthias.

Dispar could hold their own if you are willing to QT them for a period to make sure they are taking the food you'll be offering reguarly. They need to be strong eaters before entering the tank or they have very little chance long term. They love high flow and aren't bothered by intense lighting.

Carl

[RichConley]

Thats awesome.


I think a big part of the problem is that so many fish school as juveniles and dont as adults.

I've thought of getting a bunch of Lubbocks wrasses. They stay about 3", and as long as you keep it to mostly females, should stay relatively nice to each other. Theyre reasonably cheap ($20 or so) and reasonably colorfull.

[SDguy]

PM sent kong :D

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10405175#post10405175 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CarlC
Skip the parvirostris. This species is very docile and will easily be picked on. I have one male and three females in QT. Just walk into the room and they scatter for cover. Nothing like the other anthias I keep.

Lori's are about the same. I've had them in my tank for awhile now and they have a hard time dealing with the more aggressive dispar at feeding time. They seem to prefer to hang out with the more docile flavicauda anthias.

Dispar could hold their own if you are willing to QT them for a period to make sure they are taking the food you'll be offering reguarly. They need to be strong eaters before entering the tank or they have very little chance long term. They love high flow and aren't bothered by intense lighting.

Carl

Thanks for an awesome reply CarlC...

If I were to add the parvis (or the loris or dispars) they would go in when there would only be: 2 chromis, 1 purple tang, 1 laboutei, 1 juvenile lineatus... so, there shouldnt be anything there that would bother them. That being said, are the Dispars easier to get eating prepared foods? I think theyre very pretty, so wouldnt mind choosing them.

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10405194#post10405194 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Thats awesome.


I think a big part of the problem is that so many fish school as juveniles and dont as adults.

I've thought of getting a bunch of Lubbocks wrasses. They stay about 3", and as long as you keep it to mostly females, should stay relatively nice to each other. Theyre reasonably cheap ($20 or so) and reasonably colorfull.

Our LFS just got a pair of lubbock's in, and I was floored by how vibrant they are. Really understated in photos, and when you consider how cheap they are, a good deal!

[CarlC]

If you have the ability to keep them in QT to get them eating without the pressure's of being in the main tank I think they can be somewhat easy to get eating reguarly available foods. They are the only anthias I have that will eat flakes and pellets on the rare occasion I feed the tank with them.
I think they would fit in best in your high energy system. They don't mind extreme light and are a natural fish on the shallow reef.
If I could catch mine I'd ship them to you. They are stunning when flashing! Actinic really shows the blue in the fins and deepens the red dorsal They get really active about an hour before the lights go out.

Carl

[King-Kong]

Ok CarlC.. you've convinced me, then. Ill aim for the Dispars. I do have a 20g I can use as a quarantine to give them a little acclimation time before the "big show".

Any suggestions on how many I should look to get? I was considering 5 or 6. Also, should I try to get 1 male now, or get a bunch of small juveniles/females and let them sort it out?

[CarlC]

I always try for a fully changed male and whatever number of the smallest females possible. I feel it puts less stress on the females because they are not fighting it out. The smaller you can get the females the less chance of a immature male.

I don't know if I would go with more than 5 total to start with. If down the road they work out for you it is possible to add more females with a careful introduction.

I'll see if I can get some pics of my males flashing.

Carl

[Aqua Keepers]

Thats a great pic of those Barnacle blennies. Don't those guys need sand?

Are the Dispars as aggressive as the batletts?

[SDguy]

In general dispars are not as aggressive as bartletts. That said, I did have a male dipsar that would fight with my tomini tang, so each fish is individual.

[King-Kong]

Anyone know anything about small groups (say 3-5) of Chalk Bass? Serranus tortugarum?

They stay small, are peaceful, hardy, and exist in groups naturally. Also, they seem kind of pretty. Seems like it could be another option.

http://www.marinecenter.com/media/photos/FDD7956C3A62467887D6AC65265D11E0N.jpg

[Conesus_Kid]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned a harem of flasher wrasses.

[CarlC]

I don't know how well flashers would do in a tank that has 9600gph of flow.

Carl

[tmz]

Yellow pyramid butterfly is nice and reef safe. Mine never touches a copral. I second the Swallow tail female pretty and active fish. Reef safe but mine does occasionaly nip cynarina lacrymilis but nothing elseHow about a group of squampinis lyretail anthias?

[weap0n_X]

Heres some nice fish..

Midas Blenny
Radiant Wrasse
Black&White Ocellaris Pair
Blue Star Leopard Wrasse
Purple Firefish x 2
Lyretail Anthias (1 m, 3f)

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10415075#post10415075 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Yellow pyramid butterfly is nice and reef safe. Mine never touches a copral. I second the Swallow tail female pretty and active fish. Reef safe but mine does occasionaly nip cynarina lacrymilis but nothing elseHow about a group of squampinis lyretail anthias?

TMZ: know of any other reef safe butterfly? (Besides Pyramids and Bannerfish). I dont find the pyramids very pretty.. theyre kind of odd looking to me :)

Also, the lyretails would be almost as aggressive as my Bartletts, but they wouldnt all turn male.. I think for Anthias, im gonna try the Dispars.

[tmz]

As far as I know all of the rest either require caution or are deemed not reef safe.