120 gal or 180 gal

[carlosngloria]

Well Ive been reading these forums and I keep seeing the questions about 120gal tanks and most people replying that after you buy the 120gal youll wish you bought the 180. I was planning on doing a 120 gal reef tank, but that quickly changed when I noticed all the fish that I like are not reef safe. So now that brings me to this. If I am going to be doing FOWLR tank should I just jump into the 180 gal and not the 120?

Now that brings me to the next Question. Since my tank is only going to be FOWLR, and for sure Im not going to be adding any corals. I will not need a mh lighting set-up and can go PC or T5 only?

Now since I will be saving a little on the lighting I can go big on my Skimmer. If I was to get a 120 gal tank the sump I would be placing under it would be a 30-40 gal tank, and if I get the 180 then I would shoot for a 55 gal only because I think a 75 would be to big.

Ok since my lighting system shouldn't produce that much heat I shouldn't need a chiller. Since I wont need a chilled I can pick up a nice size UV system.

Now this brings me to my next question. What watt size of heating should I have in the 120 and 180. I know I should use multiple small heaters instead of 1 big heater. My house in the day stays around 79-80 and at night 74.

[Avi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10431646#post10431646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
should I just jump into the 180 gal and not the 120?

Well, I think that there's a lot of people that would almost always say...bigger is better. And, I'd agree. The larger the tank...the more stable it is, the more room there is for whatever you chose to put in and it offers more options as far as what you could put in...are just some of the reasons. I think, having a 120-gallon reef myself, that a 180 would offer even more room for more coral, so I'm with others on that. For fish, that extra room is just as much an incentive I think. So, if money and space are not objects for you, then go with the 180. It may be a bit more of a pain to keep the glass clear, but...hey...what's a little inconvenience when the incentives are so big?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10431646#post10431646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
...can go PC or T5 only?

You can use either PCs of T5s. I am still in the process of setting up a 110-gallon FOWLR and I'm using the PCs that I had when I first set up my reef...which now has MHs. I didn't know if the PCs would be bright enough for such a deep tank as the 110 is and so be sufficiently bright to show the colors of the fish, but I can say, without reservation, that they are. So, you could use the PCs, IMO, for sure. On the other hand, the t5s don't generate as much heat so if you absolutely...without a doubt...would never get a chiller if the room gets too warm, consider spending some more to get those.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10431646#post10431646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
I can pick up a nice size UV system.

A good UV is probably a good idea, but don't be lulled into thinking that it's a sure preventative of parasite problems. Make sure you follow that manufacturer's listing of recommended pumps because that will be based on the "dwell time" that the water needs to be passing the light so that it can effectively kill unwanted organisms in the water column. And, there's a limitation to the effectiveness of a UV sterilizer in that it only can kill what passes through it at the proper speed (gph).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10431646#post10431646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
Now this brings me to my next question. What watt size of heating should I have in the 120 and 180. I know I should use multiple small heaters instead of 1 big heater. My house in the day stays around 79-80 and at night 74.

I would doubt that you'd need more than a 300-watt heater. The water in your system will be warmed by the ambient room temperature and also by the water pumps, powerheads, lights, etc. depending on many issues like whether or not you plumb the circulation pump and the skimmer pump inside or outside the sump, which additional powerheads or other gadgetry you use for water movement, additional pumps like one for a UV sterilizer, the kind and amount of lighting you use, etc. So, in almost any application a 300-watt heater will be enough for you.

[carlosngloria]

Thanks Avi.

[Shooter7]

Definitely a 180 for FOWLR. Allow you to get bigger fish, if the fish is all you're interested in. And heck, with FOWLR, you don't even have to go T-5 or PC's. You could go NO flourescents since you don't have to worry about supplying anything photosynthetic. However, the T-5's would probably offer you a wider range of color control of the light in the tank.

[carlosngloria]

Should I do a glass top since my lighting isnt going to produce that much heat? Or should I just get the light fixture shielded and have some thing else on the tank to prevent fish jumping out.

A few more questions.

A Coralife turbo-twist UV sterilizers any good?
Since my lighting is not going to be so hot I shouldnt have that much evaporation and wouldnt need a RO/DI?

[jc1of2]

I had a 180 with ho t5s on a fowlr tank. Since the t5s are brighter than the pcs you can spend less money lighting your tank.

[Avi]

A glass top is, IMO, a real asset for keeping fish from jumping out. I no longer use one since the salt collects on it and it blocks some light from reaching coral that are light-demanding. Since you'll have only fish, there's no prevailing reason for not using glass on top.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10433320#post10433320 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
Since my lighting is not going to be so hot I shouldnt have that much evaporation and wouldnt need a RO/DI?

I don't see any connection between lighting, evaporation and using or not using RO/DI water, so maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, here, Carlos.

I'd say though, that you will have some evaporation coming from your sump and you'd have to keep that topped off. But, in any event, since you're tank will be fish-only, I don't think that using RO/DI water is something critical, and you've seem to arrive at that conclusion, anyway. I do think that there'll be people that will take issue with that and while, ideally, RO/DI will provide a better overall environment, I don't think that the fish would suffer in any discernible way if you didn't. On the other hand, somewhat depending on the quality of your local water, you may well suffer less from unwanted and annoying micro-algae growths and other irksome conditions like occasional diatoms if you were to use RO/DI. I guess, simply put, for a FOWLR, RO/DI isn't as important as it would be for a reef, but it's still preferable.

[EdKruzel]

If you're questioning expenses, then I suggest the 120. Four foot lights are cheaper than 72'' lights and so would the skimmer, circulatory pumps, etc...

The question really lies on which fish you intend to keep; big angels, tangs or like species would fair better in a bigger tank. Less demanding swimmers or smaller species would still prefer a larger tank, but can easily thrive in a 120.

Next is the space available for the tank. Most dwelling have ample room for a 4' tank, but a 6' or more system is often crammed into a tight spot.

Big tanks are much more stable than small and over the years (25+) I've had all kinds of sizes from little nano's (.5gal) to huge (hundreds of gallons) tanks and even a couple thousand gallon SW pond. I work for the government and moving has been frequent. I will never move a big tank again and have vowed to not own one until after I retire and settle in one area. For the time being a 58gal is just perfect. Easily moved but large enough to accommodate the livestock I keep. My advice to you is to think and research the livestock you'll want and design the tank around an ideal (not minimal) environment.

Good Luck...

[carlosngloria]

Thanks for all the great info and input.

My question basically on the water evaporation was will I have that much evaporation that spending 50cents a gallon will hurt me?

Also I bought a Queen Angel that right now is about 1" in length. I plan on having 2 tangs and 3 butterflys, maybe about 4 clowns, and a couple other smaller fish not decided on yet.

[Rockhead21564]

hey Ed, aren't "most" 120's 72" long? Same as 180's and 150's. I know you can get unusal sized tanks ie.. 48x18x24 or something similar. Just asking, thanks

[Shooter7]

Actually, "most" 120's that I'm familiar with, including the one sitting behind me as I type this, are 48x24x24. Now, 125's are usually 6 ft long...

[EdKruzel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10434151#post10434151 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rockhead21564
hey Ed, aren't "most" 120's 72" long? Same as 180's and 150's. I know you can get unusal sized tanks ie.. 48x18x24 or something similar. Just asking, thanks

You can order any dimension that will hold water without cracking but a standard 120 is 4x2x2, you may be thinking about the standard 125 that is 60''s long. Very few tank variations come standard in a 6' or a 7' but several different sizes are in an 8' tank. When I refer to a standard tank, it's just the industry sizing for mass produced tanks.

That being said, I love the 120 and the 180 for a big home tank. With the fish on the list, I'd definitely go with the 180 (or bigger).

[EdKruzel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10434688#post10434688 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shooter7
Now, 125's are usually 6 ft long...

Break out the measuring tape, a 125 is usually 60''s or 5'. You're probably referring to the 125L which comes in a 72'' size.

[Shooter7]

Interesting. Every 125 I think I've ever seen was 6'.

[Southern Boy]

I agree with ed.Think it through.I currently have a 180.I started with a 48 bowfront then went to a 125 and ended up with a 180.Now I have purchaced a 54 corner bow and I am downsizing.Not only do you need to look at the initial cost but also the monthly cost and your time.My bigger 1 of thr 2 is time.My tank requires alot of time.Where as it will take less time and probably 100-140 $ a month cheaper to maintain.I will eventualy end up with a big tank again when I buy a bigger house and can build it in to the house and give it it's own room.And I will take my time setting it up and make sure to use more cost freindly equipment to run it.Just my 2 cents.By the way do you live in South Florida?

[carlosngloria]

Yes I live in South Florida. I live about 10 mins away from ft lauderdale

I was doing a little shopping around and I found the 180gal with overflows, the stand for and the overflow kits my cost for this is $1010 which is not bad. since im not going to need super light i can probably get this tank set up for about $2,100 with the lights skimmer 55gal sump 260 lbs of live sand, bucket of salt, plus 20lb bag, 80lbs base rock, 3 100watt heaters. I have my 15 gal which I am going to turn into a QT.

Which brand of salt should I go with?

Southern Boy are you getting rid of your 180?

[Southern Boy]

Yes that is why I asked.I'm working on the 54 corner boe now.It will probably be 3-4 weeks and I have a couple of people taking interest in it but no sure things yet.I'll p.m. you in the morning.Wife is ready for bed.I live about 1 1/2 hours north of lauderdale so it's not to far.

[carlosngloria]

OK so I know that im going with a 180 gal tank. Now a question on fish. I want to have 2 diff kinds of clowns. Ocellaris and black saddle backs 2 of each. This shouldnt be a problem since my tank is going to be so big correct? Now about my rock set up should I make 1 big rock pile set up or should I do like 2 or 3 separate piles? Also would a sunken ship in there be a bad idea? I like the 2 piece sunken ship and would like to add it to the tank to give the smaller fish more places to hide and I would still be able to see them.

The main fish I want in my tank are the: Blue tang, Powder Blue Tang, Queen Angel, Black back butterfly, threadfin butterfly, ocellaris pair, and black saddle back pair.

Now the smaller fish: a pair of blue neon gobys, I would like a nice little school of chromis but I hear they like to take each other out, but I see that they like to be kept in schools, a little school of blue and yellow fusiler, a royal gamma, Parvirostris Anthias pair.

Thats should be it, unless Im walking in the LFS and spot something I like, but basically those are the fish I am looking to get for the tank.

Would anemones be ok in this tank with the fish listed. If so I would probably buy the MH pendants to have lighting for those as well, would like to get 2 one for each pair of clowns. Or should I just go anemoneless.

[Avi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10438355#post10438355 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
...I want to have 2 diff kinds of clowns. Ocellaris and black saddle backs 2 of each. This shouldnt be a problem since my tank is going to be so big correct?

Well, time will tell. It's most often not a good idea to have two different pairs of clownfish in the same tank, but it's possible that they will coexist in a big tank like that. The kinds that you're interested in aren't the clownfish that are the most aggressive, so hope for the best. Be sure to put them all in at one time, though, for the better chance of success with them living together.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10438355#post10438355 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
...should I make 1 big rock pile set up or should I do like 2 or 3 separate piles?

That's really, to a large extent, a matter of aesthetics and your preference. It is probably harder to have a bigger compliment of the live rock if you make separate piles but there are beautiful setups like that and so look around in the galleries and threads that include photos in RC for some ideas that you may like.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10438355#post10438355 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
Also would a sunken ship in there be a bad idea?

Not necessarily...so long as you have the requisite bobbing skeleton. Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Yeah, IMO, it would be a bad idea cause it's so unnatural looking and I think that most people would agree that a natural-looking tank with rockwork in a pleasing configuration is the most beautiful kind of reef. On the other hand, it's your tank, Carlos and so long as it provides the fish with what they need for sustained health I guess you can put in there whatever decorations you'd like. Please though...so I can sleep nights...don't put the fake ship in there. LOL

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10438355#post10438355 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
The main fish I want in my tank are the...Thats should be it, unless Im walking in the LFS and spot something I like, but basically those are the fish I am looking to get for the tank.

Make sure the butterfly fish that you chose are "planctivores" and will take foods like chopped mysis and cyclopeeze, rather than a kind that only eat coral. And, be sure that before you purchase any fish at all that it's eating at the fish store before you do buy it. Just ask at the fish store for them to put food in the tank for it and don't buy any fish...ever...if it's not taking food, no matter how much you want it. Ever.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10438355#post10438355 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
Would anemones be ok in this tank with the fish listed. If so I would probably buy the MH pendants to have lighting for those as well, would like to get 2 one for each pair of clowns. Or should I just go anemoneless.

The kind of anemones that clownfish host in require intense light, and since they fare best on the substrate and your tank will be a big, deep one, it's best that you don't even try anemones unless you do get MHs. It's my understanding that 180-gallon tanks are generally 24-inches deep, so, if you dodecide to do that so that you can keep anemones, then you'd do well to have 250-watt MHs bulbs.

[Southern Boy]

Mine is 27 deep and I have 3 250's.Even with 3 of them most of my anemones stay at the top.They even hang on the glass right at the water line.

[Avi]

Well...as far as I'm concerned, that's Southern Boy's videotape....400-watt MHs may be what you'd need, Carlos.

[carlosngloria]

Ok thanks for the input. I thought about getting the anemones because clowns look nice hosting in them. But I might not bite on it. Yeah I know that the sunken ship wouldnt look natural but the thing looks cool.

I probably wont get it though I had one in my fresh water tank that I had a few years ago and my fish would bury it with the gravel. It was a neat tank I had 2 fresh water barracudas and a shovel nose catfish, then one day my dad went to the fish store with out me and brought home this sweet fish. A red devil. With in the week the 2 cudas and my catfish were dead. All that was left was him. He ate the other fish in my tank. I thought the cudas would tear him up if he messed with them. But after he cleared the tank of fish he began to rearrange it the way he wanted, and when people went to look at him he would pick up the gravel and swim to the front of the tank and spit it at you. That pretty much put an end to my fresh water days. Now I think all the fresh water fish look ugly and thats why I jumped into saltwater.

Now back to the tank. I was reading the thread about TBS rock and the rock looked pretty nice. Big pieces for base and stuff. The only thing is I got a problem with the package. I dont want a million snails and hermits running around, and I dont want the stars either.
What ratio of base rock to live rock should I put in?

[bjkramer]

My advice is to get as big as can fit, your floor can hold and you can afford. Otherwise you'll always wish it was bigger.

Take it from someone who started with a 29, went to a 46 and now's at a 120.

[carlosngloria]

I live in a single story house with plenty of wall space to put it. I was planning on putting it in my den where my computer is. I was going to initially start with a 75gal that I bout a year ago with the stand for $300 I ended up selling it because when I bought the tank I didnt know about this forum. The tank was not drilled so I sold it for $200 a few months ago. Then I was going to do a 90 because I was gonna buy the stand back for $50 and the 90 fits on it. Then one day while I was in the store I saw the 120 gal and said forget the 90 I like the width of the 120. Then this past week I was in another LFS and I saw the 180. So I havent even started yet and I went from a 75 to a 180 so I need to buy the tank within the next 2 months. I want to have the tank set-up by Christmas. But Im for sure going to go with the 180 its a big tank for the fish im going to be getting. The only way I would go bigger is if I did a shark tank which is not gonna happen.

[Avi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10440714#post10440714 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
What ratio of base rock to live rock should I put in?

It all depends very much on how much patience you have. The base rock will become live rock with time but it doesn't happen over night, of course. The attraction of saving a good deal of money with the base rock has to be weighed up against the amount of time to season the tank properly with a full compliment of live rock, which, with your skimmer will be the basis of the "filtration" in your system. But, since it's going to be a fish only tank, you could do with a higher volume of base rock than you'd probably want to with a reef where low nitrates are more critical than they are with a fish only tank. Having a good quality skimmer on the tank will make a difference, too, as would having a refugium in your sump. Those measures free you up somewhat to go with a some higher amount of base rock in the rock you start with.

[carlosngloria]

AVI thanks for all the info you are providing me. I have a question about this skimmer is it any good?

Kent Marine Nautilus TE it is rated for upto 300 gallons

[Avi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10441496#post10441496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
... Kent Marine Nautilus TE it is rated for upto 300 gallons

You're welcome, Carlos...I can't really say anything about that skimmer because I haven't any experience at all with them and I haven't even read anything about them. I suggest though, that before you even look at specific skimmers, consider and then decide first, how you want to plumb it. A skimmer can be placed in the sump or outside...the pump for it can be plumbed in the sump or outside....I personally plumb mine outside of the sump, next to the tank stand. I do that so there's more room in the sump to be used as a refugium. I'd prefer to plumb the pump outside the sump so there's less heat transfer into the water of the system, but you have to have a drilled sump for that.

And then there's a big BUT....and, that's because not all skimmers can be plumbed outside the sump...some must be plumbed in the sump, some can be plumbed either way. SO, you have to investigate to be sure that the skimmer that you ultimately decide on can be plumbed the way you'd prefer.

So, think about that.

Then, once you decide, get the best skimmer you can afford. That's one piece of equipment that there should be little compromising on.

[carlosngloria]

Thanks Avi your a great help.

When im reading about the skimmer and it says the pump is submersible or inline, what does the inline part mean? Like on the ASM G4?

[Avi]

Inline means that it can be plumbed outside of the sump. In that case you can place the water pump that you use with it either inside or outside of the sump. In order for you to place the pump outside the sump, you'd have to have a hole drilled in the sump that would allow you to do that, and you'd use a bulkhead consistent with the size of the "in" of the skimmer. If you do plumb the skimmer outside, whether the water pump is in or out of the sump, you have to raise the skimmer so that it sits above the sump's water level. I built stands for my skimmers that are plumbed that way.

By the way, the Kent Nautilis TE, according to the literature about it that I've now seen, must be plumbed inside the sump.

[carlosngloria]

OK thanks. I like the ASM G4. It rated for upto 300 gal which should be good for the 180. Now I was looking at a fish compatibility chart and it says that the large angels can be kept with dwarf angels is this true?

[Avi]

Well, let's see what some people that have had experience keeping them together have to say about this......

[carlosngloria]

Avi do you think that Aqua-C EV180 Skimmer would work on my 180 set-up. If it does how is it working for you.

[carlosngloria]

I cant wait to start this project. I probably have about another month of researching and choosing my equipment before I start. In the mean time before is start buying all the goods Ill have to get the tank home and start deciding on which wall to place it. I have 4 spots to choose from. The only thing im in the process of getting is a lighting system. I am working with some one on ebay for the lighting. 3- 250w MH, and 4 96w pc. 2 10k daylight and 2 actinic blue. 6 power cords 1 for each MH 2 for the PCs and 1 for the fans. 1134w is 6w per gallon. So if i dont get the butterflys Ill be able to pick up 2 anemones for the clowns. Also some corals that the queen wont bother. So if I get that lighting system I should be ok.

[Avi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10445759#post10445759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carlosngloria
Avi do you think that Aqua-C EV180 Skimmer would work on my 180 set-up. If it does how is it working for you.

Well, I've had an Aqua-C EV-180 on my reef for well over three years now. And, I just got another for my new 110-gallon FOWLR. I like the one on the reef, although, I'm sure there are more effective skimmers. But, Aqua-Cs are quite good and they are, IMO and experience, easy to run and effective. Another thing is that they don't take up as much room as some other higher quality skimmers so they are a good alternative if space near the tank is an issue, as it is for me.

But, if I were in your place, Carlos, I wouldn't get the EV-180 if you're considering an Aqua-C. As I mentioned I have one on a 120-gallon reef and a 110-gallon fish only. I think that putting one on your 180-gallon tank would be understatement. It seems to me that you're not going to be strictly FOWLR since you've already started to drift into the coral/anemone phantasmagoria and so you'll be needing the attributes of a highly effective skimmer. So, if you aren't going to go with a higher-cost skimmer like a Euroreef or Deltech, and want to get an Aqua-C, go with the EV-240. As in most things that are reef and marine oriented, bigger and stronger will usually be a better choice.

[carlosngloria]

Ok will look into those. I just found a nice LFS around me, the guy I spoke to said they do financing. Put half down take the equipment home and pay little by little monthly. He does not charge extra for that and does not check credit. So I will be going there this weekend to check it out.

[Avi]

Good find. With an offer like that, you're able to get gear that you might not be able to get so fast if you had to pay right away when going to all the other expenses that setting up a big tank involves.

[carlosngloria]

Yea now I can shoot more towards the great stuff instead of the good stuff. Now for sure I know Ill have it set up by Christmas. His prices arent that bad either. I also live close to Big Als and they seem to have the lowest prices. But this guy was probably $20 higher on the tank.

[Avi]

$20 on an item that big is really negligible. If his markups are so small compared to the catalog sites, then I'd be his customer for drygoods if I lived that close.

[carlosngloria]

Yea $20 diff isnt that much he said he could do the tank for $650 Big Als wanted $630. Im pretty sure if I do the whole set-up with him hell give me like 10% off the total.


Anybody out there know if that fish compatibility chart is correct? It says that dwarf angels can be kept with large angels. Anybody tried this?

[carlosngloria]

Hey Avi, on my 15gal tank I want to put the Taam Nano skimmer. Do you think its a good idea? To put that and turn my bio-wheel into a refug?

[Avi]

There's a lot of disagreement on whether or not a protein skimmer is needed on a tank that comes within the description, "nano." I guess a 15-gallon does. Most of the disagreement on the "nay" side is because it's so easy and inexpensive to just do a lot of water changes to maintain the water quality of the tank. I, on the other hand, think that a skimmer is always a good idea. I don't, however, know about the Taam. If I were setting up a 15-gallon tank, I would probably give it a try. If that frees up the powerfilter that you have that now has a bio-wheel, for use as a refugium...all the better, Carlos.

[carlosngloria]

Ok thanks. Sounds good Ill be picking one up next wednesday. I know water changes arent that expensive since the saltwater is only 50cents but I would like to have extra protection for the mean time. I have a 1 and half inch queen angel in there that I want to keep alive till I get the big tank and move her over there.