72g bow lots of pics and diary

[oh monti !!!!!]

Here it goes the start of my new tank!! Picked this up from local reefer. Started on plumbing this weekend and took a few pics. I'm going to run a 29g sump underneath, and a fuge with hangon skimmer in back. Also is a pic included of my current 24g big switch huh? Please lets here your comments good or bad!! I'll take any advice you want to give thanks kevin RC is the bomb:blown: <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb186/ohmonti/890086699108_0_BG-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a> <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb186/ohmonti/000_0013.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a> <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb186/ohmonti/000_0014.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a> <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb186/ohmonti/000_0011.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

[john37]

what's the plumbing in the center for? the part that looks like an upside down U.

[oh monti !!!!!]

im not using an overflow so when power goes out the flow will stop once the tank level is below that..... at least thats my idea?!? is there a reason that wont work? dont want my sump to overflow!

[scowiii]

Gravity would still pull it up and down. Plus it looks really funky and unecessary

[oh monti !!!!!]

i think a big overflow box looks real funky in a tank. I dont want any powerheads in my tank either. I want it to be seamless. And besides no one will see the back of my tank! If you drill a small hole in the top of the pipe it will kill the siphon. I want my tank to have nothing in it no heaters, powerheads, overflows, or returns either. I love these big tanks on here where you see nothing but sand corals and fish!!! And as far as my plumbing at least its plumb and level i see alot of people in here that get to excited and dont even take the time to make it straight and clean. My plumbing does stick out about 8" but i plan on putting a refuge and a hang on skimmer behind my tank that will then be pumped into my 29g sump, maybe space really isnt a factor. Also my glass will be painted so even more will be hidden. :D

[Jeremy Blaze]

So is that center pipe a return or a drain? If it is a return, all you need is a check valve to prevent drain.

[oh monti !!!!!]

the one on the bottom right is a drain with the upside down "U" top right is the return from my sump. Bottom left is my closed loop without a pump yet. I will be building something to support my pump before i install it. I know the pipe is oversized but i did not drill the holes. I bought tank,stand,and sump for $100 already drilled. But for that price i really couldnt pass.

[XSiVE]

ok so if we are looking at the back of the tank, the 4 drilled holes go like this..

from left to right

leftmost: closed loop outlet from pump
left-middle: closed loop inlet to pump
right-middle: out to sump
rightmost: return from sump

correct?

I would be concerned about the amount of air pressure exerted on the water's surface versus the gravity keeping the water from flowing upwards in the U-section. In theory it works, look at the trap built-in to a toilet.. it's the same concept.. but the ratio of water surface area in a toilet bowl to the pipe size is a lot closer than what you've got there.. I would think the U section may need to be raised up quite a bit, or the piping enlarged.. but.. I could be wrong.. its still morning and I have not fully charged up.

[Jeremy Blaze]

I would put a check valve on the return and you should be okay.

[oh monti !!!!!]

the pipe is 1 1/2" on a 72g i thought that would be enough, and your exactly right about the toliet drain that was my concept! I thought about maybe even putting a small pump on the bottom of the drain tohelp more with the flow. not sure about though any thought on that?

[oh monti !!!!!]

didnt think of the check valve on the return. Answer me this though if the water level goes down below the return when power is off it cant drain right? my theory was to build my sump to hold plenty of water, enough where it would all drain below my returns into the sump

[XSiVE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10458169#post10458169 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oh monti !!!!!
the pipe is 1 1/2" on a 72g i thought that would be enough, and your exactly right about the toliet drain that was my concept! I thought about maybe even putting a small pump on the bottom of the drain tohelp more with the flow. not sure about though any thought on that?

I'd just cap off the other pipes and fill it up with FW to test *shrug* nothing to lose really.. let it start to drain and then when it stops you can calculate the volume of water that is missing from the tank and hopefully size your sump appropriately :)

How do you plan on keeping things (fish) out of those inlets?

[oh monti !!!!!]

the big test is coming !!!! just bein patient !!!! and those are threaded bulkheads so i will just put in the threaded screens that are made for the bulkheads and the returns i will put modular pipe to direct my flow. Cant say i am not scared of the big water test but ...... will see! just cant afford everything all at once

[RichConley]

I predict water on the floor.

[XSiVE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10458914#post10458914 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
I predict water on the floor.

yeah but the question is how much? :p

Monti, if i were in your shoes, before I bought anything else I would cap the other inlets / outlets off and just fill it up to see how far it fills before water hits the floor, then you can adjust your u-section up/down or change the plumbing method... that way you're only spending a few bucks on caps and don't spend a ton of money on something that might not work..

[oh monti !!!!!]

thats what i wrote the big test is coming

[XSiVE]

my bad for mis-interpreting :p I hope it goes well.

[oh monti !!!!!]

i have no problem changing something. i've ran quite a bit of pvc in my life and i have all the right tools to fix it easy. this will be tested i assure u with regular water over and over again before i do anything. I have seen this done on another tank and it was working i thought id try my luck. the "u" is about 2" under the top of my tank. I plan on only keeping about 10 to 15gallon in sump to allow max overflow protection. logically it makes sense if your water level is above the "u" then there should be a flow from the water rising up and going through the "u" and gravity will let it flow down think of your overflow, once the water fills up your overflow it rises high enough to flow down your pvc. at least i hope this works for me im sure its not fine tuned lol but in my dreams it works lol :lol: will see I do have another bulk head for the sump I just have to buy flexible hose to connect the rest for the test haha Rich conley no pics of your plumbing? those are some nice schematics you have RICH in your gallery it looks just like a picture my niece drew and your in software you can do better than that cant you its cool XSIVE who hasnt split water on the floor lol i do it every water change no matter how careful i am lol

[Jeremy Blaze]

I am confused. Is the u tube a drain to a sump? Or an intake or output for a closed loop?

[XSiVE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10459564#post10459564 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
I am confused. Is the u tube a drain to a sump? Or an intake or output for a closed loop?

it's the drain to the sump.

[Jeremy Blaze]

Bad Idea. The 2 bulkheads at the tops of the tank should be used as the drains.

[oh monti !!!!!]

y n the hll would the top bulkheads be used as drains, nobody does that. and yes the "u" is my drain. When you test your water do u take water from the top of your tank???? no you test the bottom to middle because thats where all the nitrates and everything are.

[oh monti !!!!!]

thats funny because every tank u see has modular pipe coming out of the top bulk heads to direct your flow. Yes i have seen a few that use the bottom for returns but thats not a good idea i believe, because i want a lot of flow and that will do nothing but blow my sand around!







<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10459690#post10459690 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
Bad Idea. The 2 bulkheads at the tops of the tank should be used as the drains.

[Jeremy Blaze]

Well, just about every tank that does not have an overflow box does use the top holes as drains.

Why?

Because it pulls the film off the top of the water. Feeding it to your filter to be processed. This is called surface skiming.

If the power goes out, it will drain the tank only a couple inches.

There is really no reason for the foul language. I am only trying th help. I have plumbed a few tanks in my time.

[Jeremy Blaze]

I think you need to do a bit more research on the matter.

Returns down low are a great idea. It will put more flow throughout the tank. You can put loc line to direct it up so it does not stir the sand.

As for the natrates being in the bottom of the tank, that is rediculous. Not sure where you heard that but, that is good ol' misinformation.

[oh monti !!!!!]

im pretty sure food falls to the bottom of the tank, therefore all food "nitrates" are stored in your sand bed. yes i agree with you when you said that it will put alot of flow in my tank but haveing a closed loop will also create a lot of flow and besides its just a 72g its really not that big and a little flow is really alot

[csb]

I think you have an interesting concept on the drain-to-sump ... I don't see any problems with that piece functioning properly.

However, here's something you might want to consider in regard to your lack of a traditional overflow box ...

Part of the concept of an overflow box is "surface skimming". A lot of proteins and other wastes rest on the surface of the water. With an overflow box, it's the surface of the water which is being drained to the sump for skimming. Without surface skimming, you aren't going to be able to effectively remove these wastes.

Surface skimming can still be accomplished without a traditional overflow box. In your case, on the inside of the drain bulkhead (in the tank) you could place a 90-elbow pointing up, then a 1.25" diameter standpipe (or whatever appropriate size for your flow requirements) with teeth cut at the water level. This would be similar in concept to a surface skimming attachment for a power filter, etc. But also, realize that the standpipe would determine your water level, so you'd have to make sure that the inlet of the standpipe is higher than the rise in your "U" drain pipe. Make sense?

Another method to address surface skimming ... probably easier than re-designing your drain ... would be to have a lot of surface agitation in the tank, so that the wastes and proteins on the surface are continually mixed into the water column. In theory, these wastes would eventually end up in the sump and skimmed.

[oh monti !!!!!]

no foul language just lol because im sorry that you dont understand my concept the"u" is 2" under the top of my tank and will stop the flow once the water is below that 2" With enough flow you dont have to have surface skimming . Are you telling me every tank in here has a surface skimmer? And why does everyones sand get dirty what do you think that is? It is leftovers. Y do they sell products to suck crap out of the sand is that just bs?








<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10460247#post10460247 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
Well, just about every tank that does not have an overflow box does use the top holes as drains.

Why?

Because it pulls the film off the top of the water. Feeding it to your filter to be processed. This is called surface skiming.

If the power goes out, it will drain the tank only a couple inches.

There is really no reason for the foul language. I am only trying th help. I have plumbed a few tanks in my time.

[oh monti !!!!!]

CSB i was hoping with a refuge ,sump, and alot of flow there wont have to be a lot of surface skimming. hopeing!!! lol :D

[oh monti !!!!!]

CSB i was hoping with a refuge ,sump, and alot of flow there wont have to be a lot of surface skimming. hopeing!!! lol :D and if i have to i guess i will hand skim lol hate not having a seamless tank

[Jeremy Blaze]

It's not that do not understand. I am just speaking from expreince of seting up hundreds of tanks. Many multiy tank systems.

I agree that if you over feed a tank the food will end up on the sand and cause problems, but that does not mean you need to test water from the bottom.

If your tank is so stratified that the lower levels test higher than the top of the water, you have some serious problems.

Yes, I would bet 90% of the tanks on here have surface skimming, if they are plumbed with a sump or other extrenal filter.

[ludnix]

I have to agree with CBS and Jeremy here, surface skimming seems pretty vital to me, even when using a lot of water agitation you usually find the waste on the surface just moves to an area of slightly less agitation.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10460355#post10460355 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by csb
I think you have an interesting concept on the drain-to-sump ... I don't see any problems with that piece functioning properly.


You mean, other than it siphoning the tank down to the level of the bulkhead?

[Jeremy Blaze]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10460646#post10460646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
You mean, other than it siphoning the tank down to the level of the bulkhead?

What do you know, you only have a basic drawing of plumbing that a 5th grader can do!:D

[oh monti !!!!!]

speaking from experience if a hole is drilled in the pvc there cannot be any siphon. and once water is under two inches it will be immpossible for it empty any more. there is no doubt there is a reason for surface skimming but a tank can maintain without it i'm doing it now!!! and lets see your thousand tanks you have set up!?

[oh monti !!!!!]

and im from Indy where are all your tanks at???

[tcmfish]

Ok just so you are reparing your house after some waterdamage take a look at your design again. I think the idea is good but the real thing won't work why... well ill tell ya. Its the same idea as those gravel vacs that are commonly used on freshwater tanks. You put the tube in the tank start the syphon and water goes OVER the edge of the tank and down to the sink bucket whatever it just goes out of the tank. Now same idea here the syphon will be started because it is lower than the water level it will work fine til you go on vacation or are at some important event and you will loose power then the water will continue to exit the tank and no water will be pumped in but since the outlet of that pipe is below the tank completely going to the sump no air will be allowed in the pipe til water is syphoned out all the way down to the bulkhead. If you don't get it you can get one of those gravel vacs and experiment or test it with tap water and be prepared to clean up. Also since you aren't surface skimming there will be a film on your surface. And if you have all this flow there is no way that perameters are different at the top than the bottom now this could be true in a very stagnent tank or something but it would have to be of some size. And please don't get so offended when people try to help.

[oh monti !!!!!]

ok you still arent listening some of you its like talking to my ex wife or something!!!!! if you are just trying to get post go somewhere else, and to those who are trying just to promote their business by making a bunch of post go away!!!! im not explaining again how there cant be a siphon when there is a hole drilled in my pvc therefore"air" grow up and go fight with your wife or whoever [profanity] you off thank you for visiting bye :uzi:

[mille239]

Please rethink your design my friend!!!! that drain will act as a siphon if it ever completely fills up with water, which I'm afraid it will!! As soon as the power goes out, (and depending on the power of your return pump, it may even siphon more to the sump than the return pump is putting back in the tank while it's running!!!!

A check valve won't make it any better... just think when you siphon water out of the bottom of the tank, it goes up over the top of the tank height and back down, and never stops until you break the siphon. This will drain your tank all the way down to the bulkhead. Unless I'm missing a major element of your design, I'd figure out a way to pull the water from the surface, so in the event of a power outage, your water level will only fall a couple inches at most.

[mille239]

one last note after re-reading, if you plan to put an air hole in the top portion of the U-tube, you will most likely get a lot of water comming out of it unless you put a riser on it above the height of the tank. eitherway, it should be a significantly large hole, so salt does not plug it up causing the siphon effect previously mentioned. (these are just my suggestions, and I have LOTS of experience with plumbing, just see my build thread (red house))
good luck, and let us know how the test goes if you go through with it.

[Jeremy Blaze]

Wow, why so aggresive, we are only trying to help.

As for calling me out on my tanks, come to the Falls of the Ohio State Park.
I have a 1200 gallon reef, 1000 gallon FOWLR, 2000 gallon Native Fish, 400 gallon Propagation tank, 4 120 qtanks, a 75 and a 125, and a 9 10 gallon q tank system.

If you are ever in Louisville, KY you can chack out Bluegrass Cichlids. I set up their system, or 22 40 gallon and 5 60 gallon tanks, all on one sump, pump, etc.

You can look at my past threads on my 180 skimerless tank, my 120 skimmerless.

GO to large tank forums and look at the almost 11foot tank thread.

Again, we are only trying to help, no reason to get so defensive and start the name calling and such.

I understand your theroy of the siphon break, but that idea only works for returns not drains. If you have a hole in the top of the u, you will never get a siphon drain to work. As long as the pipe is as high as it is ( to the top of the water) it must work on a siphon drain, just like j tube over flow boxes.

Best of luck! I hope you try this outside first.

[Reefcherie]

<i><br>Here at Reef Central, we believe that dialogs between participants should be conducted in a friendly and helpful manner. If you disagree with a posting, please express yourself in a way that is conducive to further constructive dialog. Conversely, when you post on any given subject, you must be willing to accept constructive criticism without posting a hostile or inflammatory response. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. Please let’s work to insure that Reef Central remains a friendly and flame free site where everyone, especially newcomers, can feel free to post questions without fear of being unfairly criticized. Thank you for your cooperation.</i>

[oh monti !!!!!]

well at reef central i guess its ok for people to run there mouth like little kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you look back but you didnt so thank you again for posting

[oh monti !!!!!]

so you sell people on letting their water drop 4" in their tank to use the top bulkheads as returns im sure that looks great i see that all the time And dear Rc!@!!!!!! read over before you write me a post like i said they need to find someone else to argue with this isnt a place for that is it????? they do not have to post or read so tell your 15 year old members to shut up and to the guy whos tryn to start his business im sure i will leave plenty of comments on your new website its funny how thats works isnt it im sure your customers will get a laugh or at least I will!!!! so keep running your mouth :lol:

[oh monti !!!!!]

bye you can leave now!!!






QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10465443#post10465443 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
Wow, why so aggresive, we are only trying to help.

As for calling me out on my tanks, come to the Falls of the Ohio State Park.
I have a 1200 gallon reef, 1000 gallon FOWLR, 2000 gallon Native Fish, 400 gallon Propagation tank, 4 120 qtanks, a 75 and a 125, and a 9 10 gallon q tank system.

If you are ever in Louisville, KY you can chack out Bluegrass Cichlids. I set up their system, or 22 40 gallon and 5 60 gallon tanks, all on one sump, pump, etc.

You can look at my past threads on my 180 skimerless tank, my 120 skimmerless.

GO to large tank forums and look at the almost 11foot tank thread.

Again, we are only trying to help, no reason to get so defensive and start the name calling and such.

I understand your theroy of the siphon break, but that idea only works for returns not drains. If you have a hole in the top of the u, you will never get a siphon drain to work. As long as the pipe is as high as it is ( to the top of the water) it must work on a siphon drain, just like j tube over flow boxes.

Best of luck! I hope you try this outside first. [/QUOTE]

[Jeremy Blaze]

wow

[Jeremy Blaze]

YEs, 4" of drop is much better than 20".

[oh monti !!!!!]

i can tell you aint married u have no one to argue with but RC members or like i said do u hate your life and just want to fight with someone find a different thread and move on !!!!





<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10465972#post10465972 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
YEs, 4" of drop is much better than 20".

[Jeremy Blaze]

I am terribly sorry, but I am only posting calm rational suggestions.

You seem to be the arguementive one.

Again, best of luck, I hope you plan works.

[billsreef]

Monti,

Even if you don't like the suggestions and help that experienced (and professional in at least one case) aquarists are offering you, remember they are trying to help you and not flame you.

The best way to make your siphon break work is to install a T with a 1/2 reduction and run a length of 1/2 pipe from the middle as a riser that goes above the level of the tank top. This will give you a large enough siphon break not to clog, and having the riser will allow the siphon break not to leak water all over the floor.

[RichConley]

OH monti,


Pretty much everyone is giving you correct, insightful, patient advice.

If you continue on the path you're on, not only will you have a flood on your hands, but you're going to end up getting banned for acting like a jerk.


Reef tanks are all designed the same way, not because people aren't creative, but because they work best that way. The way you're setting it up is going to leave an incredibly high risk of flood, you're never going to be able to fully fill the tank, because if you go above the siphon-break hole, water is going to shoot out of that hole. This is honestly, a disaster waiting to happen.


If you dont want to take the advice, and think you're right, fine, just stop asking for people's approval.


Good luck with your new floors.

[billsreef]

BTW, that U tube design is essentially a Carlson Surge Device. The water will always want to drain down to the bottom of that bulkhead, even with the pumps on. You will have a constantly fluctuating water level of several inches as that U tube breaks the siphon and than restarts. Could set up an interesting surge in the tank as well the surge in the sump.

[oh monti !!!!!]

i forgot how helpful this was!!!!!!!!!!!n so more people read the complete thread before you chyme in with your comments!!!!! i sick of telling you guys the same thing over and over how can there be a siphon with a hole in my pvc not possible will create air so will you leave these helpful comments like this one somewhere else cant wait tell this guy starts his business and finishes his web page so i can leave helpful comments like this so f off fgg






<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10460680#post10460680 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
What do you know, you only have a basic drawing of plumbing that a 5th grader can do!:D

[BrianD]

Good bye.

[BrianD]

[buster]

[mille239]

You try and give some people some constructive advice and they jump down your throat. Thank you Brian. He was out of line.
I kinda wanted to see what happened when he tried to fill his system, but I am pretty sure I already know, ha ha ha.

[XSiVE]

Well, it is based on a concept that works, but the surface area of the tank is just too big compared to the piping..

Id really like to figure out what the ratio of tank area to height of the "trap" would need to be in order to have something like that actually work.. never mind the lack of surface skimming tho..

nice tank btw millie.. what LFS's do you go to out on your side of town?

[Jeremy Blaze]

How funny is that, the wuote he posted of me, was just me rewriting what he said earlier in the same thread!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10459251#post10459251 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oh monti !!!!!
Rich conley no pics of your plumbing? those are some nice schematics you have RICH in your gallery it looks just like a picture my niece drew

[mille239]

Thx XSiVE. I don't frequent the LFS all that much, all of my equipment and most of my livestock I buy online. Once in a while I'll hit up Aquatic Discoveries on Ryan & 15 mile, or Oceans & Seas on 10 mile and Gratiot. I really need to join a club though.

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10466716#post10466716 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by XSiVE
Well, it is based on a concept that works, but the surface area of the tank is just too big compared to the piping..

Id really like to figure out what the ratio of tank area to height of the "trap" would need to be in order to have something like that actually work.. never mind the lack of surface skimming tho..

nice tank btw millie.. what LFS's do you go to out on your side of town?

It's not the surface area of the "bowl" that makes that design work in your toilet, but rather the large diameter siphon break in your houses drain plumbing that extends up to the roof ;)

[XSiVE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10466831#post10466831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
It's not the surface area of the "bowl" that makes that design work in your toilet, but rather the large diameter siphon break in your houses drain plumbing that extends up to the roof ;)

well yah, to STOP the siphon.. :p

but what im saying is at what point does the air+water pressure on the surface of the water in the bowl cause it to flow uphill into the trap and on down..

like in this guy's tank, if you started filling it up, how far up in the tank would the water level get before it had enough air pressure on the surface to force water up thru the u-tube and down into the sump... would it be the level of the bottom of the U or before?

tho its a great idea to essentially make a "stink pipe" on the outward side of the U to make sure the siphon breaks.

[Jeremy Blaze]

Of course, I still think it would be a lot easier/better, to use the top bulkheads a s drains!

[XSiVE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10467129#post10467129 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
Of course, I still think it would be a lot easier/better, to use the top bulkheads a s drains!

sure it would be easy, but since when is easy fun? :p

[tattooreef]

i dont know if "monti" is still on here but if so i just want to chime in after reading this whole thread and say that wow you are slandering people you know nothing about and have never even seen their work i have two tanks that jeremy blaze did the plumbing on one of wich has the return in the bottom of ,in my business, wich is a very sterile environment that i could not have sea water everywhere. and it is a perfect running system, and if the power goes out the display only drops an inch and a half, the other is an almost 11 ft tank that has been plumbed twice now due to moving. and they both run better than most tanks i have encountered. since you are just in indy we are in new albany just outside of louisville on the indiana side if you would like to see what correct plumbing looks like runs like and sounds like feel free to pm me and we will set up a time for you to see real reef tanks. i dont like to be rude on here but im not gonna sit back and let some one slander and attack one of my closest personal friends and a true professional. you need to look at my thread and see the proper way to deal with critism.

[nsreefer]

I think this thread deserves a five star rating.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10467090#post10467090 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by XSiVE
well yah, to STOP the siphon.. :p

but what im saying is at what point does the air+water pressure on the surface of the water in the bowl cause it to flow uphill into the trap and on down..

like in this guy's tank, if you started filling it up, how far up in the tank would the water level get before it had enough air pressure on the surface to force water up thru the u-tube and down into the sump... would it be the level of the bottom of the U or before?

tho its a great idea to essentially make a "stink pipe" on the outward side of the U to make sure the siphon breaks.


Theres no real pressure involved, the tank water will be at the same level as the water in the S pipe while filling. Once the tank water gets above the top of the S pipe is when the fun starts.

[XSiVE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10467299#post10467299 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Theres no real pressure involved, the tank water will be at the same level as the water in the S pipe while filling. Once the tank water gets above the top of the S pipe is when the fun starts.

hmm.. I must have something cross-wired upstairs.. I think I will go home and start some experiments to un-cross them.. muahahahahha

;)

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10467090#post10467090 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by XSiVE
but what im saying is at what point does the air+water pressure on the surface of the water in the bowl cause it to flow uphill into the trap and on down..

Rich is right. It's when the water level in the tank/bowl rises over the top of the U pipe that it starts flowing. As to how high above, it will depend on the pipe sizing. It will start some flow as soon it rises over the bottom of the horizantal pipe in that U, but won't really take off till it's gone high enough over to force the air out from the siphon break. It's a matter of gravity and water weight in this case more so than air pressure which will be the same above and below the siphon making the air pressure effect essentially zero.