Tank Crashed Yesterday...

[carfac]

I did my normal water change on Sunday- 5 gallons on my 24 gal nano. Noticed it was a bit dirty inside, but I always seem to work up a bit of something into the water when I change. Monday morning, still cloudy.

Wife calls me at work Monday afternoon that the snails are all turned over dead, the anenome is gone, etc. I come home, and my nh3 is through the roof. Couple snails are gone, but the anaenome is just buried itself in the sand.

Well, 15 gal water change right away. All filter materials pulled and replaced with fresh (Chemi-Pure, Piri-Gen, floss and a fresh sponge). Ammonia down to acceptable levels, coral starting to come back in limited fashion. Pulled the dead snails, one fish also dead. Everything else not happy, but looking like they will return.

So, why did this happen? I do not know. I did a normal water change. I - as normal- rinsed my filter material (Chemi-Pure Charcoal, Puri-Gen) real well, and put it back in. Replaced filter floss. Rinsed out a sponge I use, but used another sponge (I rotate those). I did use the head to blow off the rocks- but I do that fairly regularly.

Also, today my ammonia is .1 or so- so OK. But my water is VERY cloudy. ANy ideas what I can do???

Thanks!

Dave

[rustybucket145]

how long has the tank been setup?

[carfac]

One year plus. Started it last fathers day.

[Savas]

I have an AQ 24 and when my anemone died it totally skunked my tank and it released a ton of white stuff. I ended up doing two complete water changes to remove the debris over a 2 day period. I changed 12 gallons twice a day.

I will never have another anemone.

[carfac]

My anenome did NOT die. It shrivelled up a LOT, and burried itself in the sand... but today it is back. Not as big, nor as colorful, but it is out today. That was not the cause.

I did loose a Watchman Goby Saturday, and pulled it out Sunday- he was in the overflow. But he had not decomposed or anything...

[Savas]

Ok, then there goes my theory. I would still do the water changes as described though.

[carfac]

Just checked with my wife- stuff is slowly coming out, but with a major loss of color. But the water is still very milky asnd cloudy. Any ideas there?

[PrivateJoker64]

What water did you rinse those all things in - saltwater or fresh?
Was the water you put in aged a bit, or freshly mixed?

[rustybucket145]

did you use tap water?

[carfac]

Always- ALWAYS RO water. Mixed for 2-3 hours...

[carfac]

Sorry- missed one. I always rinse things in fresh water. Nevber (in a year) had a problem. Is this risky?

[rustybucket145]

nah, shouldn't be....

[Randall_James]

It could be an ammonia spike caused by the Anemone..

When they dump their "load" it can contain a lot of bio matter and cause a spike in the ammonia. This is one of the reasons smaller tanks are rather difficult when it comes to Anemone.

Provided you did not have anything else in the tank that could have died, I would be looking this way.. The cloudiness is probably a bacterial bloom trying to deal with all the ammonia in the water column.

[Zann]

you could use a micron filter to clean it up will help make the water clear
you dont have to run it all the time but some do

i dont have a skimmer so i run one it helps alot

[carfac]

Yah- no skimmer here either.

Things are looking better- not like they were, but better. So I am guessing I will wait the rest out.

[carfac]

I went on vaca two weeks ago. Had someone feed the fish, but I let the ananome go. I came back and over-fed the anenome... instead of 1/2 silverside, I fed a full one- twice. COuld that have cause a big, uh "load" as Randall called it?

[Randall_James]

Yes it could..

What happens is that the waste is pushed back out into the water column and then the spike in waste creates the ammonia spike.

This damages the fish and Anemone (why it buried itself). The "cloudy" tank will not clear by any filter as it is a bacterial bloom from the excessive ammonia levels. As the bacteria run out of food, the cloudiness will pass (do make sure you have good surface agitation as these bacteria consume a lot of oxygen.

Do not be surprised if the Anemone splits pretty quickly here. It is a response to survival.

As far as feeding goes, most Anemone can do very well with little or no feeding. The exception is if you are breeding and propagating, then feeding with finely minced foods helps.

I only rarely feed the Anemone's in my Anemone tank. And when they do get fed, it is with "spectra grow" food that is enriched dried krill. Seems to be a lot of bad information about feeding these guys lately.

If you are going to feed silver-sides, they should be finely minced as well

In the wild, they feed on tiny bits of food that make it to the bottom of the water column and only rarely catch errant fish in their tentacles.

Again I think if you are going to feed, every 2 or 3 weeks is going to be more than sufficient for most of these animals provided the lightning is sufficient for them.

[carfac]

Randall:

Thank you so much for getting me on the right page. I wasdoing about 1/2 a silver every 3-4 days (Wed and Sun).

On the positive side, the anenome is fully back out, but not as colorful. The Kenya looks OK, xenia looks poor, but those are weeds. Frog spawn looks like he will make it.

Sad news- lost 3 more snails... my fungia I have had 8 months or so... and my wifes clam. Damn, I have lost a lot this week.

I have a "something that starts with an M" that is a plate, and green. It is now brown. How hardy are those?

[Randall_James]

Well sir, does sound like you had A LOT in that tank. The problem can be when things are that loaded, the slightest issue turns really bad.. Clams, Anemone, softies, montiporas, LPS all in the same tank (*much less a 24) is really pushing the limits.

The "M" thing sounds like a Montipora of some kind and they are pretty hardy..

I am a firm believer in "Species" tanks and especially when it comes to animals like the Anemone that can live 200 years in the wild. I think they deserve dedicated attention to assure their happiness (no group hugs here :) ) The same could be said about softies, LPS and SPS corals. Mixing them all is pretty tricky stuff... But this is only my way of doing it, many do things differently and do fine. The best part of this hobby is that there are many ways to succeed. I just try to keep it as simple as possible for myself.

I would take this as a chance to regroup and bring the tank back as a more manageable biotope.. (read not mixing softies, LPS and stony corals). Just let what is in there recover for a few months before you try anything else..

Sorry for all your losses anyway...

[carfac]

Thanks Randall.

I just kinda kept adding one thing I liked every couple months. Most are pretty small... the clam was 2-3 inches, the fungia was pretty bug- maybe 4 inches across. It did not seem to be crowded, but I guess I shall have to do some more thinking and learning, regrouping as you say.

Ilike the anenome, especially with the clowns, so I will probably start with that... especially since that is what I have left! When tings mellow out, I will regroup with some snails and crabs.


Well, I tested my ammonia again, and it was .6 to about 1.0... so I did another 10 gal change, cleaned all my filter stuff, scrubbed out the back, pulled all the dead stuff. I am testing again now, see where I am at.

[Randall_James]

yes, you need to get it down... way down... it will go down proportionate to amount of water changes. 10% water change will net 10% reduction.. I would get that down to .2 or less ASAP.

If you are at 1.0 you need to get a good 15G water change going

[carfac]

OK, got my results- I am at .3. I think that dead clam and Fungia being in all day is what raised it, it was at .1 last night.

I am out of water now, I will have to do another change tomorrow.

I have double Puri-Gens in there now, and I will run that to help pull some ammmonia.

[Randall_James]

Good deal, keep on it and make sure you have all the 'dead' stuff out of the tank.. You are better off using tap water if need be than allow the ammonia to climb that high again. Of course RO/DI is preferred but tap water is better than say "taps" :)

[ArgonDreams]

I think it's incrediably suspicious there was a water change previous to the crash. I bet it was an ammonium ---> Ammonia Spike. A high Bio load was converting to Ammonium in the tank, I also bet there was a low PH as an indicator. Then the water change took place and the PH raised and converted it to Ammonia causing the cloudy affect and the die off.

It's theory only, but it matches the ammonium -> Ammonia effect after a water change including the cloudy water and large bio load. I would recommend even more frequent water changes and run Purigen or Ammonia resin.

[carfac]

OK, I will bite on this. Did I have a really high bio-load?

I had thought in a 24, 4-5 nano type fish were ok. I have 2 clowns. I had a six line, but he went carpet surfing a month ago, and I replaced him with the fox face. 10-15 snails, a shrimp, a few crabs.

And then my corals. A bunch of different Zoas, a frog spawn, Montipora (2-3 sq inches), clam, fungia, kenya Tree, small xenia, Brain and the anenome.

I am the first to say I do not know.... but that is too much? Nothing looked crowded...

I have been very religious about frequent water changes. I- without fail- do 5 gals a week. I use ONLY RO water from my LFS, and good salts (Tropic Marin). I do NOT have a skimmer, so I figured this was a good way to keep up. Things have (until now!) been very stable.

Re pH- I do watch that. Usually, when I see it hit 8 or so, I add in the A-B solution to kick it back up. I do see it go down- I usually have to add 5ml or so during the week.

This ammonium thing- I have not heard of this before. Can you tell me more about this?

I also had another idea what may have caused this. When I do a water change, I add 5 ml of Coral-Vite (Kent Marine) to the water as it mixes. This was the dregs of the bottle... and I did rinse the bottle out in the water. Though I do always shake it up before I put some in, I wonder if maybe something precipitated out and to the bottom of the bottle, and this, in concentration higher than normal could have contributed?

[ahullsb]

I think that you have a high biol-oad for that tank, and that is what caused the problem. I also have a high bio-load in my tank, so I'm not trying to bash you. :) I would imagine that one fish dying, or an anemone spitting out a silverside could cause that crash. And I agree with whoever posted it above that a mixed tank of anemone, soft coral, lps etc. might cause some problems as well. How bad are your ph swings?

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10555492#post10555492 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carfac
OK, I will bite on this. Did I have a really high bio-load?

I had thought in a 24, 4-5 nano type fish were ok. I have 2 clowns. I had a six line, but he went carpet surfing a month ago, and I replaced him with the fox face. 10-15 snails, a shrimp, a few crabs.

In some cases this would not be "extreme" bio load but you must keep in mind you have a WIDE collection of other animals in the tank. Fish can tolerate conditions no coral or Anemone could even start to deal with. The Fox Face has no place in a 24 gallon tank as they get up to 4 or 5 inches pretty quickly.

And then my corals. A bunch of different Zoas, a frog spawn, Montipora (2-3 sq inches), clam, fungia, kenya Tree, small xenia, Brain and the anenome.

Corals are classed in to a number of areas for tank keepers.
This is for convenience and to give a rough idea of what it is. Corals are animals, they compete for living space like any other animal and they do this with rather uniquely with chemicals. Allelopathy is this chemical warfare and can have pretty dire results for the loser. Mixing soft, LPS, SPS and other corals puts your tank at great risk of a chemical war (carbon helps a lot but is not the cure) I have personally had issues in tanks 3 and 5 times larger. I put a yellow tonga in one of my 100G sps tanks and it had an almost immediate and drastic effect on the tank.. I was unaware of what the issue was initially but after getting desperate and undoing everything I could think of I had done, I pulled it out and the tank recovered in about 24 hours. (this started my research on Allelopathy) My Anemone tank does have a few corals...Mushrooms and Zoas.. (both of which are types of Anemone)


I have been very religious about frequent water changes. I- without fail- do 5 gals a week. I use ONLY RO water from my LFS, and good salts (Tropic Marin). I do NOT have a skimmer, so I figured this was a good way to keep up. Things have (until now!) been very stable.
And you were correct and this is likely why you got away with what you were doing. My 24G Nano got 10G weekly changes


Re pH- I do watch that. Usually, when I see it hit 8 or so, I add in the A-B solution to kick it back up. I do see it go down- I usually have to add 5ml or so during the week.
PH swings are on a 24 hour scale. AB solutions provide little or no help with PH other than building the alkalinity of the water. If you watch your PH closely, you will see it swing up and down every day with the light schedule. High PH occurs at the end of the light schedule and low ph occurs just before lights on. If you are keeping it at 8 or better, you are doing just fine


This ammonium thing- I have not heard of this before. Can you tell me more about this?
I am not sure about this "theory" but I would take it with a grain of salt... I have seen ammonia bound and locked up in water when fish are shipped only to be released when the bag is opened. I do not think this happens in live tanks as they are subject to circulation of water and air at all times. Randy Holms Farley would be a good guy to ask about this idea but I think it is pretty far fetched.



I also had another idea what may have caused this. When I do a water change, I add 5 ml of Coral-Vite (Kent Marine) to the water as it mixes. This was the dregs of the bottle... and I did rinse the bottle out in the water. Though I do always shake it up before I put some in, I wonder if maybe something precipitated out and to the bottom of the bottle, and this, in concentration higher than normal could have contributed? always possible but I really doubt it

[carfac]

Randall:

First, I cannot thank you enough for your help. I am learning a lot from your input- and I appreciate it. I will give a lot more thought to what I add in the future.

But in the meantime, I am still not doing well. pH this morning was down to 7.8. And ammonia has crept up again to .4 or so. I did a tap water change of 5 gals to get it down, and have buckets out in my car so I can do 15 gals later when I get home.

So my question at this point is why is the ammonia creeping up again? Is there more dead stuff in there do you think? I have all the obvious dead things out- I think I have all the snails out... but there could be a couple under the rocks I guess. Or is it "normal" in a crash like this for the ammonia to creep back up?

I can pull the rocks when I get home and look for more snails that are dead, I guess.

Also, I should note that when I cleaned the back out last night, I left the temp probe out- so the heater was on all night- it was up to 84. I have the probe back in, and have it set to set at 78. A fan is on and blowing over the water to bring it down.

Thanks again!

Dave

[Sk8r]

I wonder if a few Nassarius snails might help, once this gets stabilized. They live under the sand and clean it.

A skimmer would be insurance: it pulls excess nutrients from the water. Bristleworms are a help with the rockwork: they get stuff that gets into the rock and break it down fast. And they're cheaper than a skimmer: unfortunately 6lines eat them.

84 degrees is flirting with lethality esp. with limited oxygenation [smaller tank].

Randall, back to you: I've used Amquel to stop a crash, in a tank with corals, because I was up against a wall: no corals were affected, and ammonia went down. What's your experience in this regard and could it possibly help here if this thing starts up again?

I'd be against moving the rocks for fear of kicking up stuff from the sand: there's enough going on here without having detritus loose in the water.

[carfac]

I have seen some stuff called Ammonia Detox or something. That looks kind of like your "Amquel". Supposed to help remove ammonia instantly. But any quick fix like this scares me... I have not seen it discussed ever, and I know the ammonia does not just disappear- it has to be turned into something!

A skimmer would be nice, but I have not seen anything that would work well on a nano. There is a nano skimmer, but I have read bad things about it.

I just called home- I am down to 82, so the temp is coming down good. I also have the return pointed slightly up, so as to cause swirls on the surface (the fan adds swirls, to)- this is good for adding oxygen, right? Does the higher temp help or hurt the amonia?

The ONLY snails that survived are the cerinth- I see those around, their snouts poking up from the sand. (I think that is what they are called). The Nassarius are the round triangular ones, right? I lost 10 or so of thoise. I will not be putting any of those back in until things are much more stabilized.

[carfac]

I read more about amaquel here:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Amquel.html

Looks like if I used it, and kept up water changes, I should be OK.

[Sk8r]

If they're under the sand, they're nassarius. Ceriths are black/gray and stick to the glass.
You may have dead nassarius under-sand, which may be a problem but do not stir the sand! it can get worse.
Don't try Amquel until we've exhausted other methods.

Can you fit a Remora skimmer onto your 24g? That would do well for you, and they're an Aqua C, which is a good brand. Great, on what you're doing with fans and returns. The higher temp just means the water carries less oxygen, and makes the effects of ammonia worse for living things, but don't let it fall below 78.

You're asking the world's worst chemist about what ammonia turns into: it has to do with an uncompleted nitrate cycle, but there's no quick fix, because one of the things that may be at issue is your sponges and filtration system. Sponges and filter media are usually not recommended for reefs because they stall out the denitrification process somewhere around the nitrate level, and only cleaning the sponge gets rid of it. A clean sponge won't work, because the only denitrification agents you have, as I get it, is [besides your live rock and sand] the bacteria in your sponges, and removing them suddenly would make matters way worse than they are. Ideally you need 24 lbs of live rock, 24 lbs of sand, and a skimmer, and then you wouldn't need any of the filtration, or need to clean anything, but as you say, the skimmer is the issue---what you can get to go with that: must fit and must be active enough to do some good. If you're going to keep a packed coral tank, that would be the way to go, plus lots of bristleworms to help break down detritus---a handful of those guys can strip down a dead snail to a clean shell in 4 hours, they can get into any space, however small, and their poo isn't nearly as ammonia-productive as rotting snail is.

Keeping my fingers crossed for you. Like you, I wonder what the ammonia is turned into, or how much of the de-ammonia stuff could be uptaken by corals. I'm just no chemist and hesitate to recommend it at all, in favor of just seeing if we can get the tank's natural defenses to take care of this. Cleaning those sponges often and getting detritus out of them has got to help.

[carfac]

OK, I had the snails backwards- my cerinths are all dead- but I see 2-3 nassarius still in there.

I also have my queen conch hanging in there!

OK, I looked at remora skimmers here:

http://www.proteinskimmer.com/productsnew.htm

I am guessing you mean the hang on the back on, right?

I wilkl call around and see if anyone in town has one.

I have 30 lbs rock... and 3 inches of sand (easily 35 lbs), so I am good on those, I think.

Just talked to wifey- temp is 79 now.

[carfac]

Great News! I found a remora in town. I will go pick this up now (and get some water.)

Should I run this all day, then do a water change when I get home.... do a water change then run it... or what? I would PREFER to hook it up quick so I can be at work at least a few hours today....

Will this pull the amonia, or is this just to future proof me?

[Sk8r]

You're going in a good direction. Prepare another water change and take a look at the remora. They're rated up to 50g, which, tank packed, they won't handle, but they're just the right size for a 25g. My own rule for skimmers is get 2x more skimmer than they say you can get by with. I'm using a EV 120 in a 54, and am very pleased with it, compared with using something like the Remora---not a fault with the skimmer, just that, like you, I have a lot of corals.

Understand about bioload. REAL dangerous bioload is fish: they consume protein and put out amino acids a skimmer needs to get rid of. But POTENTIALLY dangerous bioload is corals: you can pack them into any space you can find and as long as they're acting as filters [healthy] they're great, and you can't overload. Unless one dies messily---or unless something dies and you have no critters able to 'take care of it'. ANY ammonia can kill corals, and once that starts it's a cascade: the most delicate die, and make matters worse for the next most delicate, etc. So you have the total crash.
What the live-rock-skimmer combo does is yank everything that could produce ammonia. And if you don't currently have any bristleworms, and go to buy a Remora, ask the shop if they could sell you 2-3 worms---they really ought to give them to you gratis---and set those babies up. They'll multiply to suit the food source, and you'll be in much better shape if you have another snail demise.
Hang in there. You're doing pretty well considering the way things could have gone.

[Sk8r]

Hurrah on the Remora. I'd set it up to run ASAP. First, rinse it out thoroughly with white vinegar: and wipe it down inside and out. This will remove any manufacturing oils and eliminate a break-in period. They're dead easy to install, and you should start seeing skimmate pretty soon. Meanwhile stand by with yet one more water change if you can't get that ammonia to drop. Duh! and run a little carbon! Carbon will remove ammonia. Lord! Dim-brain here! Run carbon.

[carfac]

OK, headed out to buy the remora now. I am picking up 15 gals of water, too. I will set up the remora.... do I pull all my other filter stuff, or keep them going while I stabilize?

[carfac]

OK, the remora is running! Rinsed it out with white wine vinigar- that was the best I had. Noisy bugger!

Back to work now, check it in a few hours when I get home.

Temp is 78.3.... pH is 7.8 (Halides have been on 1 1/2 hours so far today)... AMMOINIA IS 0!!!

I bought Amonia Detox, and put in 5 ml. I figure that little bit won't hurt too much, and should help until I can do a water change tonight.

[ArgonDreams]

Randy Holms Farley would be a good guy to ask about this idea but I think it is pretty far fetched

While you may not be familiar with it doesn't mean there is nothing to it.

NH3 and NO4 (Ionized) are dynamically affected by PH. If PH has dropped Ammonia (NH3) will Ionize into Ammonium (NH4). This typically happens over a slow period of time with consistent drops in PH (Normally at night). As this continues you tend to get more NH4 which is much less toxic then NH3. Additionally, depending on your test kit it will have a reading on very low or 0 when testing for NH3.

The trigger for the event is typically a larger water change, the PH increases and the Ammonium changes dramatically from NH4 to NH3. This then crashes the tank due to the much worse NH3. Markers for it are cloudy water (Bacterial bloom) that come into affect to deal with the new load of Ammonia.

This is why I suggested this effect as it matches the rough outlines of what you mentioned. High Bioload, a medium/Large water change, tank crash and finally what resembled a bacteria bloom.

You can find more information on NH4 --> NH3 crashed on Wetwebmedia and multiple other sites.

However I agree with everyone here on some general issues, you have a higher bioload, regular water changes, consistent monitoring on a constant basis are required. One way to check for an NH4 event is Seachem's total Ammonia test. It tests both NH3 and NH4. I am not familiar with other brands that do or don't do this.

I can be totally wrong on this issue and will concede that point. I wasn't there and certainly didn't monitor the perms or the water change. However an NH4 > NH3 effect is real albeit somewhat rare.

[carfac]

Argon:

I was pretty consistent with 5 gal/week water changes... so this event was not an overly large water change for me.... but it could have been at the tipping point.

What I think may be part of it was using the last of the Coral-Vite- if the bottom of the bottle was more concentrated than normal, and that effected the pH- that could have been part of the trigger, too.

Well, with my die-off, I doubt I have a bio-load all that high anymore. At least, compared to what I had, not so much now. However, your comments would be appreciated. I now have 2 clowns, cleaner shrimp, 5-6 head frogspawn, a good number of zoas, the anenome, a couple crabs, a brain, 2 rics, a xenia which may or may not pull through, and the kenya tree.

Note I now have a skimmer in the system.

[ArgonDreams]

If it was an NH4 -> NH3 event I doubt there was "one" cause. I think it was a combination of a lot of factors. A die off, PH dropping, Coral-Vite (Possible but unlikely) and a PH increase brought on by a water change.

All of it's a theory anyway, there is no "obvious" reason why it crashed. It is however one idea that seemingly fits the facts. There are definite holes in it that I readily acknowledge. Typically this doesn't happen on a Marine system. It's far far more prevalent on Freshwater systems that have poor maintenance. That clearly isn't the case. So whether it happened or not, I can't honestly say, but the markers fit your situation. I think you are absolutely doing the right things.

For insurence I would get a total ammonia kit from Seachem if it WAS an NH4 event it would have marked it where most test kits don't. I think otherwise everything I have read here tells me you are on a great track to repairing the system. Good luck man, I went through a crash on my 24 gallon and it sucked and totally bummed me out.

[carfac]

I just went and checked on things. No skimate in the skimmer. Am I being impatient? I have it set as "wet" as it can be- it has not pulled anything in 3 hours.

Ammonia was .1

[Sk8r]

I'm glad things are going better. Don't withdraw the sponges all at once: phase them out over 2 weeks, and then go strictly skimmer/live rock and I think you'll have a more stable situation.

ArgonDreams, you raise an interesting point. When everything's running well in a coral reef, it's all good; and then you have the one death that offends all the rest in a chain reaction---it's one reason for keeping sufficient stuff standing by for a water change at all times.
WIth that skimmer, now, you also won't have the buildup of nitrates or just general 'stuff' in the system: you'll be pitching the skimmate as it fills, and the color of that will tell you how much you're taking out that otherwise would have been in there working bad chemistry. That skimmer ought to be plenty potent for a 24g, and should let you build up your coral population again without worry. Just let it all settle before you get a new specimen, and watch for signs of growth in what you have. When those grow, is time to start re-building.

[Sk8r]

Takes a while to get going. It will: the breakin can take days, but by the vinegar wash you should have shortened that time. I'd expect to see some at least by tomorrow. Don't know, too if there's a band around the cup as there is in its cousin the Urchin: if there is, where you set that band determines how dark the skimmate. I'd set it midway.
The way a skimmer works, it jets water into water and produces a froth, which is the stray amino acids, just like that yellow nasty froth on the beach; and the froth rises higher and higher in the column until it gets into the cup, so just because you don't see anything in the cup yet, it's probably frothing down there somewhere, and rising.

[carfac]

Sk8r:

No worries- I am NOT going back to my old levels anytime soon (not at all, actually!). I have taken my time so far, really, never adding anything new any sooner than 2 weeks before its predissesor.

I will be adding snails again once things stabilize, but I doubt anything else will be going in for a while.

Should I be worried about no skimmate yet, or am I being impatient? I have heard of people dumping a cup after the first few hours.... and I have nada...

[fishgeeks04]

Totally normal not to have anything for the first 72 hours or so. Give it time.

[Randall_James]

well the .1 is a good sign, man you have had a bad couple days but looks like you may be turning the corner here. If the ammonia starts that big rise again, you are going to need to find out why. You will need a bucket for your rock and a powerhead to rinse it... You will have to pull out each piece, hose it with the powerhead and figure out what died and get it out of there.

Could be that some hitchhiker you did not even know about died and is causing the problem hang in there :)

[carfac]

Well, I had hoped to have better news today. I did a 10 gal change last night. Water was looking clearer- still some cloudyness, but much improved. But this morning, I had about .4 ammonia. I popped in 5 ml of Ammonia Detox, and got it back to 0.... but I think I will have to do as Randall explained above tonight.

So I figure I will make 2 buckets tonight- one for rinsing, one for holding, and pull the rocks, rinse and hold while I work through them all.

The skimmer has some bubbles staring to rise up the skimmer a bit, but still no skimmate produced.

Damn, this is really getting me down!

Dave

[Randall_James]

just hang in there, you are on a good track and looks like the worst is over. The ammonia should not be going up again however unless there is something feeding it (decaying)

[carfac]

Thanks Randall.

With a .4 this moring, you still think that is high enough to warrant pulling all the rocks?

[Randall_James]

.4 is not good, I would pull the rock and inspect

you need be careful so that anything that is dead goes with the rock... your nose is going to be your best "finder" when you find the offending item, it will "offend" your nose :)

[carfac]

OK, I will do that. I plan on having a bucket with a PH to "blow Off" the rocks..., another bucket to "hold" the cleaned rock until I get it all out and cleaned. The Blow Off bucket will get tossed out (obviously!), but can I use the hold bucket to change out some water, too?

[Randall_James]

should be ok, am curious what you find however

[carfac]

ok, HERE is the report!

Got home- ammonia at .5- BAD. I dosed it to get it down, then made some water. Pulled the rocks, and blew them off one at a time. Nothing obvious, none of the rocks had that purtid odor. I found abut 4 more snail shells... and a few Hermies crabs (Mine are designer crabs). I just yanked all the snails, and piled all the crabs in a corner. Those that have not moved in an hour get pitched.

Well, I really F***ed stuff up- dust cloud city. Broke the Frogspawn. The Anenome is REALLY not a happy camper.

Put it back together, not nearly as nice as it was, but oh well.

Running all the filters and such to try and clean things up to see what will live through this mess. I will probably get on a 10 gal change in an hour or so, too. I won't really trust a new amonia reading (for being accurate for the tank) until tomorrow.

Do you think 4-5 dead snails is enough to be causing that much ammonia? I am out of ideas if this does not stop things. I will be selling some corals real cheap tomorrow if I am at .4 again.

[Sk8r]

Yow! I would run some [about 3/4 cup of] carbon in a new kneehigh nylon, and see if that won't knock the ammonia down. Hopefully after this adventure you'll just have more frags than you did and it will all grow back: we've all been there on that one. The skimmer is working by now---you may not see skimmate in the cup, but its going to be frothing down in the black box, and whatever is in there is not going to be in the water at large, so just be patient with that---but not the ammonia. If you happen to have a cannister filter, you might try a 1 micron cartridge if you have a pump that can push it: it's the modern equivalent of a diatom filter, and it can polish the water back to crystal clarity pretty fast. Back in the Jurassic when we all used crushed coral substrate, many shops kept a 'lender' diatom filter, and it would clean up a substrate overturn in a hurry. I wouldn't rush out and buy a whole new filter system if you don't happen to have a cannister: honestly a situation this bad only tends to happen to everybody once. I think you can get through this: stuff that blue/white filter floss into the downflow area and pull it and rinse it in ro/di every few hours: that will get it cleared out, just slower.

Re your question about snails: depends on size. Four big turbos could gag a hyaena. They're really, really stinky, and that means rot and ammonia.

[carfac]

There was one turbo... and 4 or so cerinth (?)- the round/triangular ones that like to lick glass.

I have some floss in there now, and Chemi-Pure, which is carbon. That was new on Monday when I started panicking- should still be OK, right? And a new Purigen.

It is actually clearing up pretty quick.

I had some skimmate when I got home- VERY liquid. Filled the container, slightly brown. I dumped that, but the bubble column has not gotten back up to the top agian for more overflow. BTW, I raised the cup about 1/ inch. I have 2 more inches to raise it- figure I will go slow.

[carfac]

Here is a Picture from just a minute ago:

http://www.animatedword.com/aqq.jpg

Hey, something else I have noticed- I am over run with algea! Every time I turn around, there is more on the glass. I cleaned it as a removed the rocks.... and now I see more. It is brownish...

[Randall_James]

algae is a result of the high ammonia levels, just stay after it and keep after the water changes

[carfac]

Well, no joy this morning. I got a .6 this morning.....

A little bit of good news- the anenome LOOKS better, the frog and the brain are out pretty good. And the skimmer is shooting out gunk.

But still, after all this, that ammonia level has me real down.