Pinched mantle research :what time of day does the Pm become most noticeable?

[Kalkbreath]

I have stumbled onto to something which might shed light onto the PM research.

I was playing around in the lab and found that when I direct a concentrated beam of light onto a healthy clam , the clams mantel retracts much like it does with PM syndrome.

Could it be that pinched mantel has more to do with a clams light sensitive eyes on its mantel , then it has to do with some elusive protozoa



I could use feedback from the hobbyists.
I have noticed that many hobbyists accounts of PM have noticed that the curling seems to increase the longer the lights have been on.

The pole question is this: what time does PM seem to become most apparent?

[mbbuna]

the organism that causes pinch mantle has been identified

[Kalkbreath]

Sure it has......

[Kalkbreath]

They need to establish why the protozoa they identified as the culprit can be completely covering the clam ........yet the effects (lip curling) seems to be isolated to only certain areas of the clams mantel.

[Kalkbreath]

And why many clams with PM seem to not curl during the dark cycle?

This increase in mantel curl during peak light cycle , is why I contend that the answer can be found in the light receptors located inside the clams mantel and NOT on the inside of the shell.

Did you know that clams can see well enough to hit their target when shooting jets of water as a defense?

Tests have shown that the eyes of a clam can sense direction and aim the water spray towards the predator.

Each of the eyes have a lens , a retina and optic nerve.
The nerve is surrounded by a ring of algae.

I contend that clams with PM are suffering from an hyper sensitivity to light in certain eye receptors.

This might be from topical aggravation of the lens at the top of the mantel .
causing too narrow a light beam on the retina.

metaphor:Kinda like coming out of a dark movie theater into the bright day light.

This would explain why fresh water baths temporarily relieve the symptoms.

[mbbuna]

here we go again:rolleyes:

[Kalkbreath]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10552859#post10552859 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mbbuna
here we go again:rolleyes: no , the real journey has just begun!

[Barry N.]

Sure it has......

Yes, here we go AGAIN!

I tend to believe the test results done by a Marine Lab that has conducted many test over the months and continue to do so. This lab is located at the University Of Maine Animal Research Lab. The Scientist and Doctors has published in Marine Journals around the globe.

Am not going to get into a p*ssing match on this forum as my time and energy is more important.

As results are uncovered we will post all the documentation either on a online magazine or FAMA.

[Kalkbreath]

I seems by your choice of words that a cure or even explanation for the curling response might not be included in the findings.

Clam research is full of empty findings in which the scientists identify the culprit protozoa, but then the research falls way short of offering the culturist or hobbyists any sort of explanation as to why it attacked their clam or any sort of remedy after the fact.
Example ; Vibrio is blamed for all kinds of coral and fish deaths , but is the vibrio at fault or is the event which led to the vibrio seizing the opportunity the real culprit?
It is usually some sort of trauma or an injury to the which lets an always present protozoa like vibrio gain access and do its harm.
Even when scientists do find some sort of new uncommon protozoa, they usually name the thing and then throw up their hands as to how to cure it.

The hard shelled clam protozoan parasite known as QPX (Quahog Parasite Unknown ) is a prime example of scientists/researchers seeing something in their microscope and not knowing what to call it or how to remedy its wrath.
Drumming up some name like PX (parasite unknown) is far short of explaining why the usually harmless protozoa only attracts under certain conditions and what causes those events?
Identifying what conditions enable the protozoa to attack is more important then giving it a name.

Placing all your hopes of curing PM in the hands some laboratory, is most likely gong to yeild the same lackluster results as has been the case with the countless prior works with other clam ailments. Scientists lack the in the field (or aquarium) experience
that we hobbyists experience. Of witnessing the events which led to the Pm taking hold.
A nice plethora of existing names for molluskan ailments

Infection with Haplosporidium costale
Infection with Haplosporidium nelsoni
Infection with Haplosporidium nelsoni
Infection with Bonamia ostreae
Infection with Bonamia ostreae
Infection with Bonamia species
Infection with Bonamia species
Infection with Bonamia exitiosa
Infection with Bonamia exitiosa
Infection with Mikrocytos roughleyi
Infection with Mikrocytos roughleyi
Infection with Mikrocytos mackini
Infection with Mikrocytos mackini
Infection with Marteilia refringens
Infection with Marteilia refringens
Infection with Marteilia sydneyi
Infection with Marteilia sydneyi
Infection with Perkinsus marinus
Infection with Perkinsus marinus
Infection with Perkinsus olseni/atlanticus


Im sure identifying and naming these disease agents was lots of fun for the laboratory researchers!
Too bad none of the researchers who named these clam diseases never actually found a remedy for their newly coined clamity..........

[Kalkbreath]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10552686#post10552686 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kalkbreath
And why many clams with PM seem to not curl during the dark cycle?

Each of the eyes have a lens , a retina and optic nerve.
The nerve is surrounded by a ring of algae.

I wanted to clarify what I mean; that PM may be due to an ailment within the clams Optic nerve.
These optic nerves or "eyes" on a clam's mantel serve as the primary sensory system.
Clams dont have pain receptors like you and me.
Its even unclear if clams much like like fish .... actually feel pain at all.
So how does the clam sense discomfort?
Its most likely the optic nerves located on the mantel.
My research shows that oddly enough , there is a pool of zooxanthella around each optic nerve. Why the algae surround the nerves is unclear.
What happens if these algae are disturbed?
It makes sense that if Perkinsus or some other protozoa attached the optic nerve or the pool of algae surrounding the nerve, that this would cause pressure or discomfort to the nerve and perhaps cause a reaction such as retraction of mantel the tissue in that area.

There seems to be a correlation with the day light cycle as to when clams show the most extreme mantel pinching reflex.

Why does it seem to hurt the clam more ,
the longer the lights have been on?
Could it be that the longer lights have been on , the greater the discomfort?

= optic nerve.

[mbbuna]

Even when scientists do find some sort of new uncommon protozoa, they usually name the thing and then throw up their hands as to how to cure it.

The hard shelled clam protozoan parasite known as QPX (Quahog Parasite Unknown ) is a prime example of scientists/researchers seeing something in their microscope and not knowing what to call it or how to remedy its wrath.

your saying this as if research is not ongoing on this

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/marine/mrri/shellfish/QPX.pdf

http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/viewArticle.do?id=7566



Drumming up some name like PX (parasite unknown) is far short of explaining why the usually harmless protozoa only attracts under certain conditions and what causes those events?

do you understand that research takes time and that certain protocols must be followed?



Scientists lack the in the field (or aquarium) experience

maybe you should join in the research with your microscope


you know what really ticks me off about this? it was really tuff to raise the money for this research. with all the people that have been effected by PM only a handful were willing to donate a few bucks for the cause. but everyone wants a cure. the people that have been the most critical of the research that Barrys doing didn't give a freaking dime to help out! Kalk i dont see your name on the donors list, or your supplier in Houston but i know damn well that when the results come out you will both benefit from them

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10641126#post10641126 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kalkbreath
I wanted to clarify what I mean; that PM may be due to an ailment within the clams Optic nerve.


pure anecdotal speculation

[Kalkbreath]

Pinched mantel is a communicable disease.
What ever the bug, it is spread by placing clams from different origins in close proximity to each other.( just like the white man spreading small pox to the Indians) The Indians were not the problem , the dirty white man was the source.
American settlers spreading disease throughout North America is a lot like the current Pm mantel issues. All it takes is one person on the Santa Maria to be infected with small pox and the entire set of passengers will likely be exposed.


The likely hood of your chosen laboratory naming the pathogen is high.
BUT the chances of finding a cure for clams with the disease is slime to none.

No cures for any clam disease has every been found to date even after twenty plus years and millions in research funds.
(No cure for the common cold in humans either.)

The best we can hope for is to understand how its spread and locate where its entering the clam supply line .
But to my knowledge your research is omitting the most important aspect of the spread of this disease.
Almost every one in the clam industry (not the hobby) agrees that PM originated with wild clams. (The clam farms dont see this particular ailment.)
Wholesalers who keep their clam sources separated from one another dont see PM either.
Yet a large number of Importers and wholesalers still in spite of the logic behind isolating clams from different suppliers continue to mix clams from all over the world together in communal systems!

Then they ship these inoculated clams to unsuspecting hobbyists.


You donate to my research and I will match that amount for your ongoing research .

[mbbuna]

first, you have no idea of the direction or scope of the research. and you certainly have no idea of the findings so far.

from what you've alluded to, your research is based on mostly cold water food clams, oysters, you and a spot light. you must know that the first step in any kind of research like this is to identify the offending organism. then you move from there. cause and affect is secondary.

the only other thing im going to add is that the mantle is not what is first affected. by the time we see the curling of the mantle the clam is already heavily infested.

PS, its not my research. i dont work for the place doing the research or the place that initiated the research. and the mixing of livestock comment is kinda funny

[Kalkbreath]

and the mixing of livestock comment is kinda funny Whats funny about "The mixing of livestock" it is the reason people have pinched mantel.

How often does a hobbyists have a clam or clams for months/years with no signs of a problem and then all of a sudden it develops pinched mantel? (Hardly ever)
PM almost always shows up when introducing a new clam or clams.


Where and why adding that new clam seems to trigger the pinching event should be the first target of the investigation.

The stopping the transmission of the pathogen> ( ie. mixing clams with it and clams without it)

Stopping the transmission or preventing the triggering event is the primary means of control of all diseases world wide.

People are still dying from mosquito bites around the globe, stopping the mosquito from spreading diseases like malaria goes a long way in the mean time as science researches a cure.(which may never come)
Its understanding the transmission of the disease which is the best method , of prevention.

[Kalkbreath]

[i]<a

from what you've alluded to, your research is based on mostly cold water food clams, oysters, you and a spot light. [/B] I think your mistaking me for some of those green water plankton sellers. (Wink)

[Kalkbreath]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10647321#post10647321 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mbbuna

the only other thing im going to add is that the mantle is not what is first affected. by the time we see the curling of the mantle the clam is already heavily infested.

And whats to say that they(the LAB) are not following a different pathogen then the one that we have come to know as Pinched Mantel?( the one that causes only the mantel to pinch at first no gaping and is remedied somewhat by fresh water dips)?

There are a whole host of clam pathogens to study and culture.

If the gills are infected then its not PM. ....its Perk.

If your lab subject clams are not showing signs of classic pinched mantel then they might be incubating a different culprit altogether.

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10647480#post10647480 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kalkbreath
Whats funny about "The mixing of livestock" it is the reason people have pinched mantel.



what i meant by the mixing of livestock comment has to do with the whole Eric Bornman "opportunity lost" thing:rolleyes: talk about mixing livestock

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10647480#post10647480 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kalkbreath

PM almost always shows up when introducing a new clam or clams.


of course, because that clam is infected

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10647554#post10647554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kalkbreath
I think your mistaking me for some of those green water plankton sellers. (Wink)

i know who you are;)

[reefkoi]

I don't know what i'm talking about but I have a lot of clams and a while back I had the typical PM signs in most all of my clams, with several per week dying and I thought I'd lose them all.
I figured out it must be the potassium I started dosing a few weeks prior to noticing the PM. I stopped dosing and the rest all lived.
So my theory is a clam can have a PM for reasons other than an "infection"
I don't have a research facility but I'm just saying it can mean several things wrong with it and not necessarily terminal to the clam if you correct the issue.
Chris

[Kalkbreath]

When you say your clams had "Pinched Mantle" ,
I take this to mean that the clams mantle would retract or withdraw only in one or a few locations along the outer most lips of the mantle.
as if the clam was being stung by something on its shell.
But otherwise the clam would flush out as if nothing is bothering the remainder of the mantel areas.


Clam stress can show up as various symptoms , but classic PM is specific in that the normal signs of stress (like gill discoloration and gaping don't become noticeable until the final stages .

Did your clams show traditional PM?

Thanks

[reefkoi]

Yes exactly, the mantle has a very unique pinched look. No gaping whatsoever, no bleaching. It was as if something was literally pulling in a spot on the mantle and curling it with a pair of pliers.
Like I said, I thought for sure they were all goners, it was an overdose of potassium! I don't know if anyone else has ever had that before.
We have so much to learn still in this hobby it's amazing really.
Chris

[ezcompany]

hello....

oh oops, sorry to disturb. leaving now. :D