12 people tell me different things 1 has to be right RIGHT?

[paulamrein]

Ok, so my wife and I are brand new to the hobby, and we had our tank for about 2 months or so. live rock, live sand, protein skimmer, filter. lights that came issued on the tank. It was cycled for a month. We've got 3 clowns, 2 damsels, 1 goby, and 12 turbo snails, 1 cleaner shrimp, 2 emerald crabs, 1 red starfish,
A week ago we added 1 coral beauty, 1 hippo tang (pallet, pacific blue ETC.) and 1 yellow tang. The place where we bought it from said 10 is about the limit. Which was fine that was all we wanted anyway. Unfortunately, yesterday morning I found the pacific blue scattered in white, almost opaque and swimming weird than crashed head first into the substrate and died. Went to work, came home and the yellow tang was in the corner laying on it's side, also speckeld in white but it had orange splotches on its body and died. Woke up this morning and the coral beauty is in front dead being cleaned by the shrimp!!
Forgive the length but I want to be as thorough as possible.
What I find most puzzling is that they were seemingly fine without ANY spots or discolorations just 8 or so hours before death. I want to set up a QT for the remaining fish but I am reminded of the movie "The Thing" where no one knew who was infected. Do I Quarantine them all and risk the infection to spread within the QT or do I let it ride and see which one goes next. Has anyone heard of anything hitting so rapidly? What do I do? If I quarantine the remaining and fallow the show tank, how big do I go with the QT to house all those creatures? do I leave the inverts in the display tank? I know I can't treat the inverts chemically. If I leave them in with parasites or infection attack them too?
And those out there who consider me an idiot, and I have no business in the hobby, you are too late, my wife has already covered that!!
:) Also, How in the world do I know if I'm overcrowding the tank? I've heard thousands of formulas and quotation. I want an experienced hobbist(that isn't trying to sell me fish) to tell me a hard number to go by. Not that I don't trust the guys at the stores, I just know they would sell me a shark and tell me to go ahead and put it in with the damsels.

[WaterKeeper]

Hi Paul
[welcome]

Wow, first off you LFS is all wet. Sure you may put 10 small damsels in a 55 but when you go to larger fish nothing but trouble will follow.

However, it is a disease you have and it was imported by those new additions and not due to overcrowding. The disease is Amyloodinium, Velvet, and is usually fatal. It is also hard to detect until it gets to an advanced stage. See Velvet (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.php) for a complete article on the disease and its treatment.

[Henry Bowman]

When you added the coral beauty, the hippo and the yellow tank, the inhabitants became stressed. That was probably too much (many)fish at once. When the fish become stressed they are much more likely to get ich or velvet. I'm more of a coral guy but, as I stated, too much too fast. There are medications to get rid of ich etc but they are deadly to the beneficial bacteria growing in the live rock and sand DONT use an ich treatment or other medication in your main tank.

The QT tank is a must if you want to keep this disaster from repeating itself. a 10 gl tank should be fine with a powerhead and light. "I" dont think any filter is necessary. One fish at a time and do religious 2 gallon water changes twice a week while a specimen is in there.

I use water from my main tank to fill a QT tank when needed, that way when I transfer an animal out of the QT (hospital tank) it requires very little acclimitation to the display.

What I'd do. keep the tank clean and do water changes weekly. Let things settle down for 6-8 weeks and then add another fish (one) 1 fish, a small one... and proceed from there. QT the fish for 2 weeks before adding him / her to the main display. Dont add more than one fish at a time, do your homework on the fish you'd like to have and find out what you need to be feeding them etc..

Check out wetwebmedia dot com lots of info regarding fish and QT tanks and articles there as well as here on RC. Dont give up.

As for the number of fish in your tank, a hard number in a 55 I'd stick to less than 10". That is 10" total for all the fish in the tank. EX: 5 ea 2" fish or 3 ea 3.3" fish etc. I know you can probably keep more but an inch per 5 gl is about max IMHO.

[paulamrein]

I'm trying to pick up the lingo, what is LFS?

[Saltwaterstart]

First of all, welcome to the hobby!:D

The first question was how many fish did you add at one time, and how many days/weeks apart from adding the fish. If you add too quickly, your tank can't stabilize and you will end up with a lot more dead fish in your tank! I did the exact same thing, and I wasted $150 on two dead clowns, a dead royal gramma, and 1 dead cleaner shrimp!
They didn't show any signs of distress, and they only had about 10 spots of ich, but they all died within 3 days of each other.

It sounds like you might have added fish a bit too fast and you overloaded the Bio Load after you added the tangs (Tangs shouldn't be added to a 55 gallon tank unless you upgrade anyways).

For the rest of the fish, I suggest setting up a Quarantine Tank with water from your 55, and treating with an anti-parasitic and a bacterial infection tablet. Cupramine by Seachem works great for Ich and any other parasite. The cleaner shrimp in my tank did not eat any parasites off my fish because he couldn't get a hold of them. I got mine to eat dead skin and help with any open lesions or cuts that the fish get. I recommend setting up the QT as fast as you can, because the faster you get it set up, the faster you can treat your fish!

Leave the inverts in the display tank, they will be fine and are immune to parasitic disease (At least I think so).

With the two tangs in your tank, you were definitely overcrowding it, just do a bit of research before you buy a fish next time, and the Bio Load will be okay!

[Sk8r]

Local fish store. Look in the posts at the top of this forum, and there is some help.

And ouch! your lfs done you wrong!

in a 55 g, No tangs. No angels, no damsels. Pick little fish like gobies and blennies, and no mandarin 'gobies' because they're not gobies and a new tank can't feed them.
Are you hoping to keep corals?
Fish only?

[Henry Bowman]

LFS= Local Fish Store, usually inhabitated by unknowing ding-dongs that just want to sell lots of fish and stuff to unsuspecting noob's.

Read, research and then read some-more.

At the top of most of the forums there are threads that have been "stickied" or permenantly placed there. They have a huge ammt of information in them. I believe that if you visit the home page of RC with the right column turned on, there is also informaiton regarding acronyms used here

LFS Local FIsh Store
HTH Hope that Helps
IMHO In my honest opinion
(all you really get here are opinions, experience and milage may vary)
IIRC If I recall Correctly

There are alot more

HTH

[paulamrein]

Well, we are torn between paying for all the lights and what not or just keep it fish only and buy a few fake corals for decor.
MY hope is to upgrade within a year or two to atleast 135 (I'm actually saving for it now.)

[Henry Bowman]

It took me about a year to gather all the equipment and tank itself for my newest set up. Well worth the wait. I hate to be redundant, but keep reading here on RC. Get your 55 stable and learn to keep it worry free and when the time comes, you'll be ready.

WHen you are planning tank size, for a larger tank, front to back dimension makes a world of difference in how the tank ultimately looks. 4'X2'X2' is a great looking tank.

FWIW (for what it's worth) IMHO

[paulamrein]

Well, we are torn between paying for all the lights and what not or just keep it fish only and buy a few fake corals for decor.
MY hope is to upgrade within a year or two to atleast 135 (I'm actually saving for it now.)

[kevin vara]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10560850#post10560850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by paulamrein
I'm trying to pick up the lingo, what is LFS? local fish store:D :bum:

[paulamrein]

The most frustrating part is that the awesome looking ones eat tankmates or poisonous or too big or overly agressive or won't eat virtually anything. My wife's dream tank includes sting rays and octopus. I am fully aware it is not going to happen. But does anyone else follow me on that? Don't get me wrong if it was easy everyone would be doing it, and how much fun would that be? Just venting some frustrations to those I have a feeling shared them atleast at some point

[LionfishFinatic]

Well I would definitely stay away from octo's for a while. IMO it is a waste of time as they can escape VERY easily ( If they can fit their beaks through it, they can get out through it) and should be kept in a species only tank. What I think also happened was your tank wasn't cycled enough, and too many fish at one time. HTH

[awestruck]

Hi Mr. and Mrs. Paul,

First, it's ok (and normal) to be puzzled about reefing because there's SO much to learn. :)

To start, I would quarantine all of your fish.

Next, how are your 3 clowns getting along? Are they the same species? Generally 3 don't do well together unless it's a very large tank. If they are fighting you might need to take at least one back to the store (if not two).

Continuing, a 55g. tank is a nice size but is considered average. Large tanks are the 280s and bigger (give or take a few gallons :D ). This point is important due to your post questioning the number of fish you have/had. In saltwater tanks the ratio of fish to gallons of water is much smaller as compared to freshwater fish. However, you cannot always just go by a mathematical rule to determine how many fish you can have. Much of it depends on the type of fish you have, how much swimming room you have, what else is in there, how active your fish are, etc. (don't you hate these types of answers)!

A 55g. tank is too small to house a tang when it reaches maturity. A 55g. cannot accommodate 2 tangs. A coral beauty is a very nice fish unless this is going to be a reef tank. Angel fish like to nip at corals although some don't always do that. I had a coral beauty for months and she never bothered any corals and then just started hurting them one day. Go figure...

Things to consider with fish:

1. Is it aggressive or timid?
2. Does it like to swim, hide in rocks, make tunnels in the sand,
or perch on rocks and make funny faces at you?
3. Will it make lunch out of other fish or will it be lunch for other
fish?
4. If you are considering a reef tank at some point you need to
get fish that are called "reef safe".
5. How large will a fish be when it becomes an adult? Can a 55
comfortably accommodate this fish when it has reached
maturity? For example, my favorite fish is a long horned cow
fish and every now and again you can find a 2-3" one for
sale. HOWEVER, they grow to approximately 18" when full
grown. My tank is only a 58g. and in no way can house an
adult cowfish. So, I either need to be prepared to get it a
much bigger tank, sell it to someone who can properly take
care of it, or just don't get it in the first place. Tangs are
beautiful fish but they too get big.

The damsels you currently have are considered aggressive. They can dominate tanks and be outright nasty. This is okay as long as you don't want smaller, peaceful fish. Clown fish are actually part of the damsel family and can be aggressive too, especially if they are defending/protecting their anemone. And, some clowns are more aggressive than others. A female maroon is probably the most aggressive clown there is.

Continuing, you have every right to be excited about reefing; if you're like most new reefers you're just kinda overwhelmed by all of the information. THAT'S OKAY. :) Don't quit, just start reading.

If I may offer a suggestion this is what I would do: Quarantine the fish and leave the inverts. While the fish are patients in the hospital sit together and start reading. Ask questions. Read some more. Have a beverage of your choice. Read some more. Visit sites like Drs. Foster and Smith, Saltwaterfish.com, MarineDepot.com, ReeferMadness.com etc. Also, you are off to a good start by coming to Reef Central and asking questions.

To end for now, be patient. Sometimes that's hard because you're excited but patience will reward you (and your animals) later on.

Keep us posted. :)

[paulamrein]

Thanks for the advice. I am starting to read everything I can about the hobby. At first, I admit, that I was totally against it when my wife wanted to start a saltwater tank. " You are spending how much for just ROCK!!?" My wife is a beach bum and she loves everything tropical, it was an adjustment when she wanted to change our condo into a beach house and buy a parrot and get a saltwater tank. But now I'm hooked on the hobby. I've spent more time buying books and surfing the internet I am actually behind on a deadline one of the books I illustrate. ( which is what I should be doing now) It's extremely addictive.
About the clowns, they are false perculias and they were fry mates so they are never more than a fins length apart. Never any agression at all. We bought the two yellow tailed blue damsels because it was suggested to us to help cycle the tank. And the diamond goby to sift the sand for algae.

[kev apsley]

12 people tell me different things 1 has to be right RIGHT?

LOL! Welcome to the reef hobby!

just hang in there and be patient, slow and steady wins the race...might have added too many big fish too fast.

[loosecannon]

Paulamrein: 1# Your tank was not cycled in a month! You started to put fish in after a month, way to soon! 9 # fish in a tank that size no good. Saltwater holdes 250 times less oxygen than fresh. Way to manny fish and put in way to fast. Your lfs. want`s to sell to you, not help you. Thats what were here for. Ihave a tank 75 gal. 125 lbs. lr. 40 lbs. ls. one 3" Dragonet, one 4" tang, that`s it! The tank has ben cycling 5 mounths now. Slow down and chek out every fish be for you get it. Make shore you can feed him, and that he dosn`t get to big. By adding all those fish and so fast that weakend them and than thay died. p.s. if you were to put all those fish in a 135 gal. it would be too much!

[Mavrk]

The advice above is great and I don't really have much to add:

1. You should never add 3 fish at once, especially in a younger tank.

2. I would bring back the damsel fish. They are aggessive and territorial (but very hardy). They can be difficult to remove.

3. Also, I would bring back 1 of the clowns. Usually 2 clowns is the limit with one being larger than the other (if they pair, the large one will be female and the small one male). In nature it is common to see one female, one male, and 0-4 non-sexual clowns together. If the female dies, the male becomes female, and one of the non-sexuals becomes male. In a small environment like our tanks, this does not really work. The female is the most dominant and territorial. Sometimes captive breads will be fine for a while, but not usually in the long term.

This would give you a more manageable QT and help prevent future problems. With good filtering I would go with around 2-4" (at their adult size) of fish per 10 gallons. This is not an exact number to follow, as filtration, food, type of fish, and other factors play a major role. It is also important to read what fish get along well together, and how big a tank a fish will need when full grown.

Just my 2 cents worth of advice.

[awestruck]

I agree with mavrk regarding the damsels: you might want to consider taking them back to your lfs (local fish store). They are very aggessive; when you decide to add another fish, the damsels could very likely kill it unless it too is very aggressive. On the other hand, damsels are pretty and very hardy so it's just something to think about. And, many people view using damsels to cycle a tank as unethical (your store should not have told you to use them) because when the ammonia spikes it is VERY stressful on animals thus many die. You could easily have gotten a piece of shrimp from the grocery store for 75 cents and cycled with that. Again, your store misled you.

To reiterate what others have said, quarantine your fish and just let your tank run for a while. I seriously would consider getting rid of one of the clowns; if you want aggressive fish the damsels are ok. However, beware that they may attack newer fish later on and kill them. So, if you don't want an aggressive tank, now is the time to remove the damsels. Do more research--you'll find some really cool fish out there! :)

[Saltwaterstart]

Also, while doing your research, here is a compatibility chart that works wonders for both freshwater and saltwater.

http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/saltwater_compatibility_tool.php

It is not always 100% accurate. I've had livebearing freshwater fish take down an African Cichlid. But I bet that was coincidence. For saltwater, it works for most species, but like everything in the world, there is always an exception.

Don't worry about having a fish-less tank for a long time. I recall a person in the LFS I go to saying they cycled their tank for 5 months before even thinking about adding a fish or coral.

Just treat for ich/velvet with the correct medicine for 4-5 weeks, and let the tank cycle for that time with only the inverts in there.

[awestruck]

Saltwater--great advice!

[awestruck]

Just thought of something to add (could have put it in the above post but didn't think about it soon enough)! :D When people refer to bio load they are simply saying the amount of live stuff in your aquarium. Bio load refers to LOTS OF ANIMALS (fish, inverts, stuff on live rock etc). When you add something new it takes your filtration system (usually rock and sandbed) time to adjust to breaking down the waste (fish poo etc.) from the animals. Also, when adding live rock it takes time to filter due to things that might have died that were in the rock. So, when you add a bunch of fish at one time the filtration system gets bombarded and cannot break down the waste quickly enough to keep your water parameters where they should be (no ammonia, no nitrates etc). Additionally, obviously a large fish's waste is going to make much more of an impact on your filtration than a small fish. This is one reason why people are advising to only add one fish at a time (2 at the most). Also, a large tank provides many things but for the sake of this conversation a 55g. has a difficult time breaking down the waste from 3 clowns, damsels, a goby, a tang, etc. The system was simply way overloaded (again, too much waste). To end, remember that large fish need A LOT of swimming room :) That's why large angels, large tangs and other monster fish won't do well in a 55. It's kinda like only being able to live in a closet... Hope this helps.

[cplklegg]

First off, [welcome]
Hang in there you 2, I remember a 55 bowfront I had before I knew any better; I had a Purple Tang, coral beauty, lawnmower blenny, tomato clown, 6line wrasse, flame angel, and then the ex had to have this cute raflessi butterfly. Well, to make a long story short, the whole tank crashed over 1 day shortly after the addition of the Rafllesi there was just too much bioload for the tank. so, we live and learn to READ before we do anything else and become wiser. Most of us have been in your position to varying degrees, just learning from your sad and frustrating experience is all one can do. Best of luck to you and as some have already said, this hobby if nothing else teaches us the value of PATIENCE. I'm sorry to hear of your losses too.