Ca/Alk/Mag waaayyy off... where do I go from here?

[NeveSSL]

Well, after a long wait and lots of frustration (which I will document in a different thread ;) ) I finally got my test kits and guess what! My alk and mag were not detectable and my calcium is around 100.

I guess first off, is this possible? Or have I done something wrong? Maybe I'm color blind. (honestly... lol) I have a feeling its just all low. Is it time to start two part? :)

Ammonia is at 0 and I'm assuming nitrates are the same. The company I ordered from sent me a nitrite kit instead of nitrates... and after waiting 3 weeks on the nitrate kits to restock... ridiculous...

Thanks!

Brandon

[crumbletop]

Must be bad kits or reading things wrong, Brandon. Mix up a fresh new batch of salt water and measure that with your tests. The last thing you want to do is make some quick changes off of a bad test result. If need be, you can get me a water sample and I can test it just to double check.

[NeveSSL]

Ok, thanks Jack. I'll do that. I wondered about that being an option as well, but all of these are only a month or two old... but who knows! :)

Brandon

[NeveSSL]

Let me ask you guys this... these are Salifert test kits... how much color change do you look for before you consider it to be "so"? Maybe I was looking for too much change. I was looking for at least a quarter of the liquid to change, but should I be looking or any change at all?

Thanks!

Brandon

[ManotheSea]

start adding kalk or agaramilk. this will adjust your alk and ph by increasing your calcium.

[ManotheSea]

you wont overdose on kalk or agaramilk. kent calcium product are also good

[lesages]

If you magnesium is low it can make it difficult to maintain Ca and Alk. You'll need to use waaaaaay more Ca products to maintain the proper level. After your Mag is at 1300 Ca and Alk should be easier to maintain.

[crumbletop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10562436#post10562436 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NeveSSL
Let me ask you guys this... these are Salifert test kits... how much color change do you look for before you consider it to be "so"? Maybe I was looking for too much change. I was looking for at least a quarter of the liquid to change, but should I be looking or any change at all?

The alk and the Ca being titratable tests should be dramatic. My bet is you are reading the results wrong. Salifert results are backwards from the way I think. You have to flip the syringe. I think it is near impossible that you have almost no mg in the water. That is why I suggested measuring some freshly mixed SW for compare.

DO NOT do what ManotheSea suggests. Make sure you have a real problem before doing anything to the tank. Kalk can cause a HUGE problem, and is horrible for correcting large deficits of Ca + alk. Correcting a huge Ca + Alk problem with kalk would probably put your pH up around 12, and you'd have a milky white tank :)

My bet is your readings are off the charts and you have been reading the results upside down. To get an "undetectable" ca and alk, you'd basically add only a single drop and the color would change. If you have to keep dripping stuff into the vial to get the color to change, then you have detectable stuff.

[Nanz]

Use a reference. If you are not sure of the test results then get a KNOWN reference to test. I know the Seachem Mg and Alk kits have a reference with the kit.

I used to use salifert for Calcium but I like API's test kits because they are simple and easy to use. They are not as precise as the salifert but they are less expensive and get the job done.

If you have a water lab in the area ask them if they can give you a reference for Ca, Alk and Mg...

I agree.. Do NOT add anything until your sure how to use and read the test. Blind additions are not wise in this hobby.

[NeveSSL]

Ohhhhh... ok.... hmmmm...

I'll bet I may be reading them backwards. I'll have to double check tonight when I get back and read the directions a little more carefully. :)

I can say that the colors don't change until the very end, almost. I'll also make up some new water.

Thanks again Jack!

Brandon

[NeveSSL]

Thanks Nanz...

I definitely won't be adding anything until I understand the problem for sure. :)

Brandon

[crumbletop]

So what's the verdict? Were you just reading them backwards? Since they "don't change until the very end" I suspect that was the case.

[NeveSSL]

Indeed. I was reading them backwards. :)

Go figure!

I'm going to do it again tonight and pay particular attention at the end this time... lol I'll update in a bit!

Thanks Jack!

Brandon

[NeveSSL]

Well, I tried to post last night but Reef Central does their backup at 3:30AM central and, well... I wrote my post at 3:29 we'll say. :)

Calcium: 465
Mag: 1440
Alk: ???

My alk never did change colors! I am finding these kits a bit hard to read. If I swirl per the instructions, it doesn't change. Only the top part changes sometimes, and then I swirl and it mixes in without changing.

I do wonder, though, if it could be something in my water messing with the kits. I'm not using RO/DI yet.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Brandon

[crumbletop]

Sounds like your alk is really high. It is doing what it is supposed to do (color change locally and then as it mixes the color changes back). It also sounds like you've been supplementing with stuff -- probably according to the manufacturers instructions which typically say something like "add a cap full per xx gallons every day", or "add a teaspoon 3 x a week" or some such. Now that you have decent test kits you should only add based on the measured values.

Here is what I would do for the alk -- I'd add 1/2 RO/DI and 1/2 tank water and then run the test. I'll bet your alk is off the scale. Your real alk will be 2x the reading you get. If your corals, etc are all happy, then what I would do is let the alk and Ca fall on their own over the next while. Then you can start supplementing again using this handy web calculator:

http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chemcalc.html

[NeveSSL]

Well... I actually haven't been supplementing anything. Maybe coralife salt is just that good! :lol:

Everyone seems to be happy in the tank. Well, the hermits are killing each other off, but I think thats normal. :)

I'll try that trick with the alk and see what happens.

Thanks much!

Brandon

[crumbletop]

I just read that a recent salifert batch of Alk test reads way too high. If you can get me a water sample, I can double check your results. You also may want to post in the salifert forum and see if your lot# is a bad batch.

[XSiVE]

If you're not using RO/DI water, your tap water could have very high alk levels to begin with and then ontop of that you're adding your salt (+trace elements) which could be raising it even higher.. I know that once I got a new RO+DI filter ( I was using a very old one but it was better than tap water) my ALK went from about 12-13 down to 9 and has been stable there since.

[Sk8r]

I second the observations already made, and add this, just to make testing easier. IF you're testing often, there is a shortcut, once you get adept at it: you know what your reading was yesterday. Never mind the mixing and shaking up to the near neighborhood of yesterday's reading...just shoot the reagent in until you're in the neighborhood of yesterday, mix well and then go drop by drop. DON't use this method if you haven't tested for a while. Be more precise.
Also, once you get close to the reading, you'll note what, in lab, we used to call 'the flash' as your drop hits the solution. IE, it reacts, and then the color goes away as it diffuses through the rest of the sample. That's when you slow down and go drop by drop, because pretty soon 'the flash' color will permeate the whole sample and stay that way.

I used to sit up for hours doing tests like this in lab, and we'd have gone nuts if we did each one 'by the book.' Our application wanted general results, and the method I cite is generally close enough for government work...or for a tank situation. It's more important to test often in a new tank than it ever will be, so I offer this in the hope you will test very often and log your results: better, if you're going to dose, to dose "to prevent the trend" rather than wait until you're clearly in deficit.

HTH.