Reporting new electrical work for tank?

[leoskee]

Do people usually get a permit to set up electrical lines for their tanks or do they just do it? Im having a ton of work down in my house and will soon finish the basement where I plan on doing a 180 inwall. Should I bother getting permits for new electical or just set it up. My basement was finished already so I am refinishing it.

[funman1]

uhhhh..
That depends on you....

I personally would never pull a permit for basic stuff like that, the Gov can just stay out of my business, and I can keep the fees that charge and put more in the tank.

I find that I'm more educated than any inspector I've come across yet, so I don't have much faith in them.

Now I don't know your level of skills when it comes to power so, if you don't quite know what you are doing, then get a permit so at least it has a second set of eyes on your work.

[BeanAnimal]

It all depends on where you live and your level of expertise.

I personally would never get a permit to do electrical work at my home, other than replacing a service panel or meter socket (it is a very good idea to get a sticker on these). Branch circuit upgrades and remodels... forget it. Then again I would never get a building permit to do interior work either.

If you do poor work and your house burns down, then the insurance company may not cover you (if they can show that your non inspected work caused the fire).

In other words, the choice is yours. Weigh the pros and cons and made a decision :)

[leoskee]

Im not that experienced with hands-on electrical but I understand most of it. I just wanted to get some other views on this.

My town is permit hungry so that they can get as much out of you as possible. They have a person driving around checking up on scheduled work and reporting work that is not on the city's list (in other words work without permits).

[MeuserReef]

They have a person driving around checking up on scheduled work and reporting work that is not on the city's list (in other words work without permits).

Are they driving around with X-Ray glasses??.....

....Well then.. No Permit needed

[leoskee]

What I mean by the statement above has to do with overall work. Im having my 2nd floor bathroom and kitchen remodelled. This means there will be a dumpster and contractor trucks in front of my house. This is what they look for to do surprize visits.

I guess I wont need a permit if I do the work after the remodelling is finished. This way I dont have to worry about anyone checking on things since the electrical panel is in the basement.

Thanks everyone.

[Roamer]

One thing to keep in mind: once the work is done , assuming it is done right, it is basically impossible for them to tell that you added a new branch circuit for your aquarium. It's not like they have a master list of all the circuits installed in all the building stored away at city hall.

If you are unsure about your ability to do a code approved job, I WOULD recommend that you get a permit. Talk to the folks in the code office and tell them what you are doing and how you plan to do it. They can definitely point you in the right direction on how to do a good, safe job.

And, I have to say, unlike building codes, MOST of the NEC codes actually are there for safety. And while you might understand WHY something was required by code, usually it was because someone DIDN'T do it this way in the past and someone (or something, say a building) was hurt by it. But ALWAYS keep in mind one thing: code is the MINIMUM standard to do electrical work! Most often, you can do a BETTER job than code requires and that is always piece of mind.

[leoskee]

That sound advice Roamer. Thanks.

[BeanAnimal]

Yeah... don't get me wrong. If you do your own work, do it to code :)

[poppin_fresh]

Its threads like this that make me appreciate where I live. Yeah, its the sticks and we have a lot of rednecks and hippies, but I dont need a permit for ANYTHING! I can add a garage, remodel the kitchen, etc. and I need not notify anyone. I love no zoning!

I do agree that you even if you dont need a permit (or choose not to get one) the work should be done correctly.

[NanoReefWanabe]

i HAD to get permits for my circuts for my tank...BUT : my tank is in my bedroom and new laws are in place for any electrical work done in Bedrooms..Circuts must done with ridiculously expensive AFI breakers..and inspected...i also used a GFI outlet..but i dont think i needed to...inspector didnt say anything...nor did he go in my crawl space to see how nicely i ran the wires...LOL all he checked for was the breaker and polarity...(only reason i bothered with the inspection was for resale and insurance BS)

all the other work in my house that cannot be visibly seen from the road though goes with out permits..unless i cant do it by myself, and have to get a contractor in..

[funman1]

The city would have no idea you added a circut to your bedroom when you sell??
Neither would your insurance...

Just say the house came like that.
Since there's no record of how the house was wired they can't prove anything.

[BeanAnimal]

The whole AFCI thing is a boonedoggle too.

The IFA used trumped up statistics to support their code change. There was a LOT of money lobbied at that one. The manufacturers saw a multi-billion dollar market if AFCIs were mandated for all circuits in the new code. The IFA would not bend that far, but went ahead and gave them bedrooms.

The AFCI breakers nuisance trip with anything more than an alarm clock or tv hooked up to them. I would NOT put one anywhere near a fish tank if you don't want problems.

[NanoReefWanabe]

LOL fair enough bean...now what do i do with this stupid $118 breaker?

and i think they (home inspector) would be able to tell that two outlets side by side in a bedroom built in 1945 didnt come like that...mind you i know half the home inspectors have a hard time telling their butts from a septic tank....but things like a that would have to pop a red flag...it is pretty much common sense..yeah i could argue till i am blue in the face that it came like that when i bought the house, but they will still say i require proper inspection before selling..kinda like adding a deck larger then 100 square feet or shed the same size...if it is brought up at sale time then i am sure something will have to be done to rectify it..

but anyway back to topic at hand...just do it yourself, and play dumb if they ask later down the road..LOL

[BeanAnimal]

Put the AFCI back in when you go to sell the house :)

[ST33LR4T]

i would be concerned if you had to make an insurance claim if the work wasnt done to code you could be out of luck.

[BeanAnimal]

You should do work to code... but on the flip side, how much work do you actually see that is done to code? Many contractors know what their local inspector looks for. They do that up nice and pretty and cut corners on the rest anyway.

I see stuff daily, done by licensed contractors, that will curl your hair and give you goose bumbs.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10618670#post10618670 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
You should do work to code... but on the flip side, how much work do you actually see that is done to code? Many contractors know what their local inspector looks for. They do that up nice and pretty and cut corners on the rest anyway.

I see stuff daily, done by licensed contractors, that will curl your hair and give you goose bumbs.

My father put on the addition to our house (large mudroom, large garage, etc,) and did the wiring himself. Massachussets requires an inspection of all wiring, so he had the inspector come in before he put the drywall/insulation in. The inspector asked him if he did it himself.

My dad said "Yeah, why, did I make a mistake somewhere?"


The inspector's response:"Its too neat to have been done by a contractor."

[Roamer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10619110#post10619110 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
The inspector's response:"Its too neat to have been done by a contractor."

Isn't that the truth!

[BeanAnimal]

I got a sticker when I upgraded my panel. The inspector came in and took a 2 second look at the neatness of the work. I asked if he needed me to show him the wiring in the meter socket or any branch circuits... he said "nah I have seen enough" I know for a fact that this guy can be a real PITA and usually wants to see almost every connection.

[Donw]

Weve got it pretty easy in the county I live in. We can do what ever we want as long as its to the existing building and the work area is 400 sq ft or less and you dont downsize any window or doors, bigger is fine. No inspection or permits even electrical and plumbing. It does have to be owner occupied.
They just added the electrical part since the county dumped all of its inspectors and put the burdon the the state.

Don

[BeanAnimal]

Yeah, beware the ICC (BOCA) uniform building codes are coming to everyone soon. They are here by law, but most areas have no way of enforcing them.

You got it right... the UN now has a hand in US building codes. ICC (Internation Code Council) codes are full of nonsense and almost ALL based on WORST CASE from a broad internation standpoint.

For example, I live in western PA. If I build a deck on the east side of the house under an eve... according to the BOCA codes, it has to support:

Live Load + Dead load + Snow Drift Load + eve snow slide Load.

To but it bluntly if built to the silly codes, you could park side by side tractor trailers on the deck and still not get enough deflection to meausre :)

Coming to a code inspector to you soon :)

They have plans to revvamp (absorb?) the IFA (NEC codes as well) ohh joy.

The UN is slowely but surely governing the planet :)

[Young Frankenstein]

You are breaking the law.........by doing electrical work without a license, even if you are an engineer, you don't have enough knowledge to do wiring properly. So before you get RED TAGGED and begging a licensed electrician for a permit........call a real electrician.

[stugray]

"You are breaking the law.........by doing electrical work without a license, even if you are an engineer, you don't have enough knowledge to do wiring properly. So before you get RED TAGGED and begging a licensed electrician for a permit........call a real electrician."

What a joke!

I just recently traded my nextdoor neighbor ( electrician ) my hot tub in exchange for him wiring three new circuits in my garage.

I gave him the hot tub, and he wired the 220 2 phase circuit himself. He had me come over to look at it because the hot tub would not turn on. He showed me that each phase had 120 Volts to ground, but nothing would turn on.

I asked him to check the voltage from phase to phase. He looked at me funny and then checked it. It was 0 volts. He looked at me funny again.

I said lets look at the breaker panel: He had connected both breaker to the same phase. I told him how to rearrange the breakers to get them on separate phases & everything worked!


So..... I went home and installed all of my new circuits by myself.

I installed 3 - 15 amp breakers with over sized wire, through rigid conduit ( all the way into the breaker panel ) AND pulled a ground wire ( even though I didnt need to ).

I also installed a new 220 plug for my welder while I was at it.

So where in that story should I have used the ( clueless ) electricain instead of doin it myself?

Stu

[stugray]

Oh, and the "even if you are an engineer" statement......

I am an electrical engineer, and installing the circuits that I did could have been done by my ten year old.

Stu

[leoskee]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10619906#post10619906 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 0 Agios
You are breaking the law.........by doing electrical work without a license, even if you are an engineer, you don't have enough knowledge to do wiring properly. So before you get RED TAGGED and begging a licensed electrician for a permit........call a real electrician.

I can only speak for myself but my town allows you to do your own electrical and plumbing work with out a license. I wouldnt be breaking the law. They only require that you get a permit for it so that they can inspect it.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10619906#post10619906 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 0 Agios
You are breaking the law.........by doing electrical work without a license, even if you are an engineer, you don't have enough knowledge to do wiring properly. So before you get RED TAGGED and begging a licensed electrician for a permit........call a real electrician.

I am NOT an electrician, and sadly know enough to do a better job than many electricians I cross paths with.


I don't so much mind the fact that people in a trade defend their trade. What burns me up is when they act like I am not capable of learning or practicing their trade.

Sorry, but there is no rocket science in being a run of the mill electrician. A HV electrician or switch gear expert may be in a bit different class, but residential rum dums are a dime a dozen.

Anybody with basic electrical knowledge, 10 minutes of training and common sense can wire a residence to code. Tricks of the trade and time savers may escape them, but single phase stuff is fairly trivial for the intelligent and mechanical inclined.

The same goes for plumbers, framers, hvac guys and dozens of other trades.

Not there are not VERY skilled persons that are true craftsman... there certainly are. But a fair portion of the folks just know enough to get by and are not gonna amaze anybody with their deep thinking or troubleshooting skills. I suppose the same goes for any profession.

The main point is still the same. If you are not capable of doing a safe and proper job, then leave it to somebody who can.

[BeanAnimal]

Stu, I recently had (2) electricians tell me that I could not share neutrals between branch circuits. The reality is that you can most certainly and legaly share a neutral between as many branch circuits as you wish, as long as the neutral is sized to carry the worst case unbalanced load.

So (4) 15A breakers (2 per leg) would equate to a worst case unbalanced load of 30A. A #10 neutral pulled in with a ground and (4) #12 hots would feed the desired service location.

yet another told me that multiple GFCIs could not be paralleled on a single branch circuit.

Sometimes you gotta scratch your head and be glad you know more than the pro :)

[leoskee]

Can I just take apart the outlets as is or do I have to shut the main breaker?

[leoskee]

I think I can do the wiring. Do I need special gloves? Should I wear rubber soled shoes?

[BeanAnimal]

I would enlist the help of a friend who fully understands what you are getting into.

If there is any doubt (it sounds like there may be) then it may not be something you want to tackle on your own. If this is your first electrical project, then please get help. You sound capable, but do need direction and hands on help.

Hurting yourself (or worse) is certainly something that can happen if you are not comfortable and familiar with working on a service panel. Burning down your house is also certainly something that could be the result of improper wiring.

[leoskee]

Thanks for looking out for my best interest BeanAnimal. My last two posts were just kidding around. Things seemed to be getting too tense. I truly appreciate everyones help and suggestions. I would not and will not try to do anything I know I am not capable of doing. But for the most part I can tackle the project I was planning. Ive finally realized that I will not need to get a permit for it since it is a simple wiring job to create 4 new outlets.

Thanks again everyone.

[funman1]

I have to agree with Bean (Again).
Resi wiring is like childs play for the most part.
A few basic do's and don't will go pretty far for resi!!!

Now commercial; (What I do), is far more than that.
And HV is a whole-nother animal...

90% of what I do is gas stations, that's what we specialize in.
Sometimes we work on refineries and such... So we always have to deal with Class 1 Division 1 areas.. Crazy stuff....

Back to Resi...
When I help people on their houses, I give them a 30 min how to and say go....
Then come back after they ran the wire and are done, then I recheck everything for them. Most of the time they get 100%

But if you don't know what you are doing, get someone qualified!!!

[BeanAnimal]

I know enough about commercial to do the work, but not enough to be efficient and conform to code or plan a project.

Switchgear setup would take me a good bit of research and help. Most of my 3-phase experience is in the mining industry and It does not translate well to commercial NEC stuff.

My only experience with HV is underground and it mostly consists of "wow that makes big mean sparks and noises... I should stay away" Though underground HV load centers certainly do make cozy places to nap on when your wet, cold and tired :)

[funman1]

hahahaha
:)

[Chris2500DK]

The cost of a permit compared with having a burned down house that the insurance won't cover cause you did the wiring yourself is a complete no-brainer to me.

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10620551#post10620551 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Stu, I recently had (2) electricians tell me that I could not share neutrals between branch circuits. The reality is that you can most certainly and legaly share a neutral between as many branch circuits as you wish, as long as the neutral is sized to carry the worst case unbalanced load.

So (4) 15A breakers (2 per leg) would equate to a worst case unbalanced load of 30A. A #10 neutral pulled in with a ground and (4) #12 hots would feed the desired service location.

yet another told me that multiple GFCIs could not be paralleled on a single branch circuit.

Sometimes you gotta scratch your head and be glad you know more than the pro :) Can you share the neutral for any type of loads ? like lighting loads? I am just trying to learn. Oh and tell me where in code it says you can oversize neutrals for branch wiring, so if I go by what you are saying I can run a #2 neutral around the house and it will pas inspection. eheheheheh man electrical work in theory and reality are 2 different things. I will give you credit thaw for trying to answer these people questions, for your effort, but sometimes you can say "yeah thats how you doit" to someone that you may think he can do the work, and by just doing a bad splice they can burn their house down. Electrical work should be left to electricians, in worse case scenario at least you have someone to sue.

[funman1]

Can you share the neutral for any type of loads ? like lighting loads?

Yes, IE in comercial building with 3 phase 120/208
We pull what's called a "Full boat" to our ceilings. A full boat is (Blk, Red, Blu, Wht, Grn)
So all 3 circuts (Blk, Red, Blu) share the one wht netural. (All #12 wire)
However if you ever lose a netural, all your crap gets hit with 208 instead of 120.





Oh and tell me where in code it says you can oversize neutrals for branch wiring, so if I go by what you are saying I can run a #2 neutral around the house and it will pas inspection.

I don't have a code reference for for the over sized netural thing. It would work in theory; but I don't know if it's code..

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10628608#post10628608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 0 Agios
Can you share the neutral for any type of loads like lighting loads?? Lighting loads are one of the places that MWBC are commonly used.

Heck, what about a 40A 120V hot water heater and a 20A utility branch. Yup, they can share a neutral. 40A breaker on one leg from the panel, 20A breaker on the other leg from the panel. 40A is the unbalanced load, worst case. You can even toss another 20A branch on the second leg. That is 3 HOTS 120V single phase hots on a single neutral. No need to upsize the neutral either.

The unbalanced load would still only be 40A. No handle ties needed, the breakers do not even have to be side by side.

Better yet, here is an example directly out of the NEC handbook
http://www.reeflogix.com/images/rc/circuits/commonneutral.jpg
The caption reads Exhibit 225.3 A 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire system (branch circuits rated at 20 amperes; maximum unbalanced current of 80 amperes).

Notice the (8) circuit breakers and the single neutral? Notice the lighting loads? We can certainly comment on the size that that neutral needs to be to carry the 80A unbalanced load? We cab also talk about harmonics that MAY pose a problem in a real world implementation.

I am just trying to learn.No your not, your trying to show that only electricians can answer such questions. Your also trying to forward the idea that I may be wrong, because I don't know the code, becuase I AM NOT an electrician :D To be dead honest, My bet is that you may have just leanred something though ;)

No hard feelings from this end, and if you honestly were trying to learn, then I just gave you a good place to start. If you honestly thought that I could not answer the question, then I have shown you that you were wrong and not all of us out here are ill-informed or incapable of doing electrical work, in the field or in theory.

Oh and tell me where in code it says you can oversize neutrals for branch wiring Better yet, tell me where it explicity says you can not.

Federal Code is not a list of things you CAN DO, it is a list of things you MUST DO and MUST NOT DO. This holds true with the NFPA, MSHA, OSHA or any other CFR. If you can't cite a section of code the prohibits an act, then it is not allowable by code.

With regard to this subject and the question you asked, yes you can oversize a neutral and pile branch circuits on it until your blue in the face, as long as that neutral is sized to handle the unbalanced load. They are called Multi Wire Branch Circuits and not limited to 2 handle tied breakers, as most uninformed electricians and laymen think.

so if I go by what you are saying I can run a #2 neutral around the house and it will pas inspection. Your inspector may not pass it, but if you had the time to waste, you could take him to task and win the case. Why do we not bother to do something that stupid? Becuase it [pulling the large wire and fighting an ignorant inspector] is more trouble than it is worth.

man electrical work in theory and reality are 2 different things. I will give you credit thaw for trying to answer these people questions, for your effort, but sometimes you can Your not giving anybody any credit. Your acting like a smug electrician who thinks nobody else can do what you do. I can certainly explain why your conention is not correct, but I don't see a need to.

say "yeah thats how you doit" to someone that you may think he can do the work, and by just doing a bad splice they can burn their house down. Electrical work should be left to electricians, in worse case scenario at least you have someone to sue. People ask questions. Some of us try to provide them with better information than they alread have. In most cases, they DIYer is going to do it himself anway. Would you rather see them armed with good or bad information? For every guy like me, stu, funman, etc there are 10 uniformed people who sling electrical advice and 10 of you guys who say "Don't ever do it yourself, only electricians understand how to do that work".

The bottom line no matter what is simple:
IF YOU CAN NOT DO THE WORK CORRECTLY AND SAFELY, YOU SHOULD NOT BE DOING IT If you notice, I beat that drum every time electrical questions come up.

If you honestly feel that way (that only licensed folks should do the work), then you may want to lobby congress to ban the sale of electrical goods to non licensed people and make non licensed work illegal. Ohh wait the electrical unions already do that, the plumbing unions already do that. In some places it is ILLEGAL to do any trade work if you don't have a trade card. It is nonsense and has to do more with job security than any notion of safety.

[Young Frankenstein]

OK heres my simple answer so you can understand electricity in applications better !
Exibit1
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167/kourtaks/commonneutral1.jpg
If LI, L2, and line neutral are lets say feeding a house panel and you loose the neutral, the ground conductor will take over the return and your lights will probably deem, letting you know theres a problems, considering you have descent grounding. In the event you don't, inductive loads, such as a refrigerator compressor will feed back 220 volts to appliances resulting in the #1 cause of electrical fires.
Now in Exibit1 if the neutral breaks and you have separate neutrals instead of 1 main neutral you are safe. Thats one of the reasons we are NOT allowed to share neutrals for lighting loads as per code another reason is resistive loads may cause an unbalance therefore having a higher return current than normal. If you ask me do electricians do it? the answer is yes, do all electricians are qualified ? you know the answer to that one, but thats in any industry, you have people that know their trade and some don't. Is it legal for you to give electrical ADVICE without having a license or working under a licensed electrician NO. THE LAW STATES ITS ILLEGAL TO OFFER ANY ADVICE IF YOU ARE UNLICENSED. Why because someone can get hurt. Another words an electrical engineer cannot change a ballast according to code. Can he do electrical drawings, yes, but the responsibility stays with the contractor, and let me tell ya most of electrical blue prints are only good for the address. Thanks in advance for folowing the LAW. :D Now go to your refrigirator and start drinking those Heinegens because is the weekend and I have plenty of time in my hands, thats after I come back from fishing at the Keys. Beware you engineers, I will be BACK.

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10620591#post10620591 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leoskee
I think I can do the wiring. Do I need special gloves? Should I wear rubber soled shoes? Now answer this man honestly, look at the question and Say to yourself, should he be doing wiring ?????? NO There ya go. Call an electrician before you fry like chicken wing in KFC HOT OIL PRESSURE HEATER. :D

[Young Frankenstein]

bzzzzzzzzzzzbzzzzzzzzz beware you electrical engineers, learn first bzzzzzzzzbzbzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbzz
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167/kourtaks/heineken.gif
1-for BeanAnimal, and 1-for funman1 :D

[stugray]

Sorry 0 Agios,

Youve got it wrong. The law states:

"Per Colorado Law (CRS 12-58-101 et. Seq. & 12-23-101 et Seq. respectively), persons performing plumbing or electrical work for hire must be licensed by the State Plumbing or Electrical Board respectively"

Notice the FOR HIRE part. I cannot charge someone to do electrical work without being state certified, but I absolutely may do my own work.

Think about it, if the law were that strict, and I burn my house down with the work I did recently...THEN I COULD SUE HOME DEPOT for giving me advice. Do you think HD would put themselves in that position if the law was correct according to your interpretation?

Agreed, you should not do your own work without pulling a permit and having it inspected. I even know a certified inspector that will help a homeowner understand how to do the installation, and will even stand there and tell you what you did wrong and let you fix it. He cannot, however, HELP you fix it.

Stu

[stugray]

Oh, and Agios: are you personally calling me an idiot with the constant " beware you electrical engineers, learn first " statements?

I paid my way through college as an iron worker, welder, general construction, and EMI/EMC facility installer.

I think I know a bit about electricity.

Shall I start making GENERAL statements that all electricians are idiots because of my experience with the one next door?

Stu

[stugray]

So now for some constructive postings:

Here's an example of a typical self-done home installation:

I installed three new 15 amp circuits. Two are in my garage. 1 is dedicated to my compressor, one to my workbench, and one for my fish room. I pulled 12 guage wire everywhere - 1 outlet on fish room circuit, one outlet on compressor, and two outlets on workbench. I did not share neutrals ;-) All outlets are 15 A.

All wires are pulled through 1/2" rigid EMT. The emt runs 100% from the breaker panel to every outlet. 1 dedicated ground wire was pulled to the fish room because of the GFCI outlet ( even though when using emt, I didnt need the green wire ). I used approved surface mount boxes at each outlet and junction. All boxes are covered & I left 6" of loop in each box.

So where do you see a code violation?

Stu

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10631018#post10631018 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 0 Agios
OK heres my simple answer so you can understand electricity in applications better !
Exibit1
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167/kourtaks/commonneutral1.jpg
NOT allowed to share neutrals for lighting loads as per code Sorry my friend, the NEC allows the practice. Your inspector or localityMAY not, but the NEC does. The illustration was taken directly from the NEC handbook.

Can you please post the code section that prohibits the practice?

It is legal and a common practice. As you have eluded to, there are some serious gotchas. Nobody said there were not.

another reason is resistive loads may cause an unbalance therefore having a higher return current than normal. Umm, the neutral has to be sized to carry the worst case unbalanced load. This was clearly stated and is clearly outlined in the code regarding neutral sizing of ANY load.

We are NOT discussing best practice here. We are not discussing the pitfalls of ANY particular wiring method. That is another entire subject. You have gone out of your way to discredit non electricians doing electrical work, and frankly not done it.

I am not going to respond directly to the rest of your post, as I am struggling with a way to kindly convery my feeings. I will however offer something to think about.

Your not the ONLY person who understands electrical theory or practice and your not a member of some obscure or elite group because you hold an electrical card.

Your comments have been more than a little condescending regarding your status and knowledge in this field. You may not want to help others learn electrical work, but don't try to stop others by using the arguement that they don't know what they are talking about. Some of us clearly do know exactly what we are talking about.

Plumbers make the same arguements as you do, but regarding their trade. Am I wrong if I assume you have done your own plumbing? Do you feel the same or do you have a rational reason as to why you did your own plumbing?

Have you ever done work on your car? Their are certified mechanics. What if you don't bleed your brakes correctly and wreck into my car? Shall we make it illegal to work on cars? Shall we NOT give advice to folks who want to DIY it?

We can make dozens of examples along the same lines. As I stated, each trade has their "I am a Pro, your an idiot" banner wavers. Please don't be one of those people.

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10631499#post10631499 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stugray
So now for some constructive postings:

Here's an example of a typical self-done home installation:

I installed three new 15 amp circuits. Two are in my garage. 1 is dedicated to my compressor, one to my workbench, and one for my fish room. I pulled 12 guage wire everywhere - 1 outlet on fish room circuit, one outlet on compressor, and two outlets on workbench. I did not share neutrals ;-) All outlets are 15 A.

All wires are pulled through 1/2" rigid EMT. The emt runs 100% from the breaker panel to every outlet. 1 dedicated ground wire was pulled to the fish room because of the GFCI outlet ( even though when using emt, I didnt need the green wire ). I used approved surface mount boxes at each outlet and junction. All boxes are covered & I left 6" of loop in each box.

So where do you see a code violation?

Stu It sounds ok but i would have to check your grounding

[BeanAnimal]

It sounds ok but i would have to check your grounding Your kidding right? Please tell me that was just meant to be a light hearted joke.

Agios, I think he was trying to point out in a kind manner that he is fully capable of doing work to code, including the grounding.

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10620591#post10620591 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leoskee
I think I can do the wiring. Do I need special gloves? Should I wear rubber soled shoes? Ok fellas you give advice to this gentleman, not me I wont put his life or property in jeopardy.

[BeanAnimal]

He was joking agios... joking after the comments you made :)

Smile and go fishing my friend.

[Young Frankenstein]

Its raining all day man, I guess I just have to spend all day writing in RC :D , If he was joking, he got me hehehehe, I thought he was serious man. OK go back to drinking fellas, false alarm. :D engineers .........

[MarkS]

One of my pet peeves is when someone tells me I cannot do something and have no hopes of possibly learning how because they went to school for it/have a license/spent years doing it and I haven't.

Codes are there for a reason, but they vary be state and city. Arguing codes is pointless. Moreover, household electrical wiring can be learned in less than an hour and you'll be wiring up to code. There are books available at your local library and even at Home Depot that give step by step instructions on how to do basic wiring and even complex wiring without burning down your house. The only sane reason to give the "I'm an electrician and you're not, so you cannot possibly understand, much less do it. Blah Blah Blah" line is because homeowners doing it themselves takes business away from you. If you cannot spread your knowledge, then find a different forum. This is the DIY forum.

I'm an electronics hobbyist. I'm 100% self-taught. Do I know everything? No, but I'm continually learning by reading what ever source I can find and asking anyone who is willing to share their knowledge. I'm currently working on a Motorola 68000-based robot controller for the fun of it and for education and am planning an aquarium controller based on two Parallax Propeller (16 32-bit cores total) microcontrollers with a touchscreen. Do I know everything to complete these projects? No, but, again, I'm learning. Do I have codes to follow and could I burn down my house with these projects? No and highly unlikely. However, I'd like to see a seasoned electrician correctly wire up some RAM to a microprocessor.

Going to school to become and electrician is required in order to get a job in the field and to get licensed. It IS NOT the only way to learn and saying that someone who has spent two years in a tech school knows more than the DIY'er with a shelf full of code books and years of self taught experience is asinine at best.

The trick here is to read up on your local/state codes and if you are allowed to DIY, do enough research to become familiar with what you are planning to do and get the proper permits. Screw the electricians that are afraid of the DIY'er.

[Young Frankenstein]

Marks "I'm an electronics hobbyist. I'm 100% self-taught."
Electricity is not a hobby,like reef keeping, my friend, you are mixing a DIY skimmer, or a DIY calcium reactor with an electrical installation.People that don't take electricity seriously regret the day they got into this hobby if they go throe a fire or get hurt. With that said, be responsible and leave electrical work to the professionals. Do I give advice, yes I do, but only to people that at least can understand something.

[MarkS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10633580#post10633580 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 0 Agios
Marks "I'm an electronics hobbyist. I'm 100% self-taught."
Electricity is not a hobby,like reef keeping, my friend, you are mixing a DIY skimmer, or a DIY calcium reactor with an electrical installation.People that don't take electricity seriously regret the day they got into this hobby if they go throe a fire or get hurt. With that said, be responsible and leave electrical work to the professionals. Do I give advice, yes I do, but only to people that at least can understand something.

I agree that its not a hobby, but you missed my point. I've taught myself something that engineers go to school for 4-8 years to learn. For you to use your education in the field to put others down is plain wrong. There are others that have years of experience, but no schooling and I'm willing to bet they know as much, if not more, than you do. You should caution the average DIY'er about the dangers of electricity, but don't get pompous and arrogant in the process.

And drop the code crap. You move to anywhere else and all of your knowledge of electrical codes is for naught. You'll have to learn new electrical codes to get licensed by the city/state before you can go to work. Comparing electrical codes is like comparing apples to oranges.

[Young Frankenstein]

Marks after reading this "I think I can do the wiring. Do I need special gloves? Should I wear rubber soled shoes?" what would be your answer ? just curious. And if i did "For you to use your education in the field to put others down is plain wrong" do that, i sincerely and humbly give you and the rest of the "I am an engineer" crew a box of Scot tissues to wipe your tears :D

[BeanAnimal]

Comparing electrical codes is like comparing apples to oranges.

Most state and local bodies use the NEC. They sometimes add their own requirements, but rarely if ever contradict the NEC.

The perfect example would be the MWBC discussion above. the NEC allows the circuit in the exact form that it was posted. Some local codes may add a stipulation that ballast type loads may not share a common neutral... or that 20A circuits are mandated for ALL general purpose outlets, not just the specific locations outlined in the NEC.

[MarkS]

True, but every municipality and state have their own variations.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10634144#post10634144 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarkS
True, but every municipality and state have their own variations. Yeah, but all based on the NEC :)

I have found that most places just use the plain jane NEC these days. With most localities farming out their zoning and inspection (due to the new laws and adoption of the IBC) it is much easier to follow a standard instead of trying to maintain their own and keep it updated with each release of the NEC.

[hahnmeister]

I agree with everything that has been said, but I just wanted to add something. If your local club is anything like mine, there are a few contractors and electrical engineers already in it... and possibly an electrician or someone who knows one for cheap. In our club, there is alot of service sharing... one guy wires everything, the other guy plumbs everything for the other guy, and then the other guy can do all the cabinetry/woodwork because in a few months, he will need the same stuff with his new tank. When I wanted a few new branches added to the house... all it cost me was a sushi dinner and my special bloody-mary recipie for my buddy, a professional electrician, to do a sweet job.

[burdenpi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10618049#post10618049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ST33LR4T
i would be concerned if you had to make an insurance claim if the work wasnt done to code you could be out of luck.

I work in insurance and unfortunately there is no exclusion for doing your own electrical, not building something to code, general stupidity (not that these discussions are stupidity). The insurance company would have to prove you intentionally caused the damage. And intention is hard to prove. Read your contract sometime and look through the exclusions to see how things are covered and whats excluded. In most cases if its not excluded, its covered. I am a manager at an insurance company so I deal with this all the time. Have fun your DIY, the insurance companys arent out to ruin your day, they want to cover most losses for you to keep you a happy customer. As long as you keep things on the up and a good company will take good care of you. Insurance companys are given a bad rap and it is never important until your house burns to the ground and you need it.

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10635827#post10635827 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by burdenpi
I work in insurance and unfortunately there is no exclusion for doing your own electrical, not building something to code, general stupidity (not that these discussions are stupidity). The insurance company would have to prove you intentionally caused the damage. And intention is hard to prove. Read your contract sometime and look through the exclusions to see how things are covered and whats excluded. In most cases if its not excluded, its covered. I am a manager at an insurance company so I deal with this all the time. Have fun your DIY, the insurance companys arent out to ruin your day, they want to cover most losses for you to keep you a happy customer. As long as you keep things on the up and a good company will take good care of you. Insurance companys are given a bad rap and it is never important until your house burns to the ground and you need it. Come down here in Miami Florida and say that. People here are still waiting 3 years after to get their money from huricayne claims.

[Paul B]

I have been an electrician longer than all of you guys but I would not touch this thread.
Besides I am retiring in 15 weeks and want to forget all I know about electricity. I may pull out all the electricity in my house and use candles. Or maybe I will get that guy who wants to know if he needs special gloves or boots to do it :lol:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094electrician.jpg

[Young Frankenstein]

Hi Paul :D always good to see you, is that an acrylic fish tank you are standing in or glass ? cause I am about to do the same after getting involved in these threads :D

[BeanAnimal]

I gotta say...

After seeing the (2) part 20/20 special on State Farm auto claims, the fact that none of that billions of dollars worth of legitimate Katrina claims will EVER get paid, and the fact that we have had several people HIT our cars and still had to argue to get it fixed right... I am not one that you could convice that insurance comapnies are willing to pay claims, no matter how airtight they are.

I could be dead wrong... but I just don't have a good feeling about insurance companies.

[carnavor]

just DO IT!!!!!!!!!
if you get a permit DUH

[burdenpi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10636069#post10636069 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 0 Agios
Come down here in Miami Florida and say that. People here are still waiting 3 years after to get their money from huricayne claims.

If you are waiting 3 years to get a claim paid you are either with a bad company, insured by the state of florida, or something isnt right with the claim. We are the 3rd or 4th largest insurer in the state of Florida and had 98% of our claims paid within 6 months of the last hurricane.

[burdenpi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10637041#post10637041 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I gotta say...

After seeing the (2) part 20/20 special on State Farm auto claims, the fact that none of that billions of dollars worth of legitimate Katrina claims will EVER get paid, and the fact that we have had several people HIT our cars and still had to argue to get it fixed right... I am not one that you could convice that insurance comapnies are willing to pay claims, no matter how airtight they are.

I could be dead wrong... but I just don't have a good feeling about insurance companies.

No one forces you to buy insurance, self insure with a bond with the state and you can cancel it all together. Its easy to be negative about it, people always take it all the little guy vs. the big bad insurance company. If people didnt commit fraud, lawyers didnt sue insurance companys to get them to pay claims which insurance was never intended to pay, and people didnt exagurate their losses we wouldnt have to have so many exclusions in contracts to limit this behavior.

I feel like I am at work, I want to get back to talking about fish.

[BeanAnimal]

No one forces you to buy insurance, self insure with a bond with the state and you can cancel it all together. That is tangent to the assertion that many people do not get their claims handled honestly.

You are offering it as an option to somebody that is disgruntled with the system. I think however, that most would like the system to work they way it is advertised and not have to go to court to get an honest claim paid. Most would like their medical claims reviewed by a doctor, not a temp with a rubber "Denied" stamp and a library of legaleze to cut and paste from (If you have not wathced the 20/20 investigation, it is a real eye opener).

It is all about getting what you paid for. Customer service and honesty. Not litigation of fine print and built in gotchas to prevent payment of rightful claims.

The insurance industry made record profits due to Katrina, but has paid out record lows on the claims. I am not saying this, congress is saying it and the forensic reporting backs it up.

easy to be negative about it, people always take it all the little guy vs. the big bad insurance company. People get shafted all the time. We don't even need to talk about Katrina or huge disasters like that.

Case in point:
The hill in my front yard collapsed due to (3) consecutive water main breaks in the same spot over (2) years. The water company's insurer told me that "it has been rainy and we have seen a lot of hills subside, you don't have a claim". Funny, each time the water main broke a river ran down the street and my sump pumps (that NEVER run) ran nonstop. Water ran from the hillside in front of my house but the grass was dry. Water oozed from cracks in the street where it was forced up underground. My neighbors basement flooded via water coming UP through the floor. Each time they have said the damage is not their fault, but due to a rain or snow melt. They have said that I can take them to court to get a claim and that they will fight me tooth and nail. Nonsense.

If people didnt commit fraud, lawyers didnt sue insurance companys to get them to pay claims which insurance was never intended to pay, and people didnt exagurate their losses we wouldnt have to have so many exclusions in contracts to limit this behavior. There is no doubt that a LOT of people abuse the system or flat out commit fraud. It is a shame that people are that dishonest that often. It boils my blood.

That does not mean that the rest of us get treated fairly, nor does it mean that the insurance companies are honest and willing to pay out legitimate claims. My personal experience and observations are the exact opposite. I am sure others feel the same way.

Are you a bad guy? I doubt it. The benefit of the doubt is that you are an honest guy trying to make an honest living and honestly trying to stick up for the market you work in. However, if the majority of honest folks think that they are getting the shaft by their insurers, it is certainly for a reason.

I would also submit that their are some wonderful insurance companies out there. Not all of us are privilaged enough to be insured by CHUBB or the like. :)

Enjoy the afternoon and thank you for your perspective on the topic.

The whole darn mess needs reformed, but as you said.... lets get back to fish.

[hahnmeister]

Sometimes being dishonest with such dishonest business is the only way some people feel they can break even... fight fire with fire. 'Padding' your claim isnt exactly a new idea.

[BeanAnimal]

My problem is that I am too honest. I guess that is why I always end up on the short end of the stick.

Even with the hill in front of the house. I did not want a retaining wall, landscaping or anything else. I just wanted them to put the dirt back and plant grass. It would cost more to go to court than it would to do it myself. If I turn it in on our homeowners then it will cost me more in the long run also. It makes you want to kick somebody.

Hahn... what day are you coming in for MACNA?

[hahnmeister]

Cant this year. Had to pull out. Im going to a couple bigger ones in Germany though... those should rock. Its too bad because I have some buddies in Pittsburgh that I havent seen since they got married... I like the area. LOVE driving on the interstate there in a little sports car with the top down!

[BeanAnimal]

Its a shame... we coulda had a few beers.

[Young Frankenstein]

Just back from mile marker 72 in the Keyssss :D
Yeah I can see it now I was wrong :(
Insurance company "Sir the fire departments report is saying you did that electrical work yourself with no permit"
Reefer "Yap I did, all the work was done by me with no permit"
Insurance company "That technicality wont stop us from paying your claim 100% sir, we are a good honest insurance company"
Reefer"Thank you sir"
and then a post in the DYI forum
reefer " 0 Agios thats a bunch of baloney, insurance company's are good and honest"
:D

[burdenpi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10638477#post10638477 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
[b] That is tangent to the assertion that many people do not get their claims handled honestly.

You are offering it as an option to somebody that is disgruntled with the system. I think however, that most would like the system to work they way it is advertised and not have to go to court to get an honest claim paid. Most would like their medical claims reviewed by a doctor, not a temp with a rubber "Denied" stamp and a library of legaleze to cut and paste from (If you have not wathced the 20/20 investigation, it is a real eye opener).

It is all about getting what you paid for. Customer service and honesty. Not litigation of fine print and built in gotchas to prevent payment of rightful claims.

The insurance industry made record profits due to Katrina, but has paid out record lows on the claims. I am not saying this, congress is saying it and the forensic reporting backs it up.

[b] People get shafted all the time. We don't even need to talk about Katrina or huge disasters like that.

Case in point:
The hill in my front yard collapsed due to (3) consecutive water main breaks in the same spot over (2) years. The water company's insurer told me that "it has been rainy and we have seen a lot of hills subside, you don't have a claim". Funny, each time the water main broke a river ran down the street and my sump pumps (that NEVER run) ran nonstop. Water ran from the hillside in front of my house but the grass was dry. Water oozed from cracks in the street where it was forced up underground. My neighbors basement flooded via water coming UP through the floor. Each time they have said the damage is not their fault, but due to a rain or snow melt. They have said that I can take them to court to get a claim and that they will fight me tooth and nail. Nonsense.

[b] There is no doubt that a LOT of people abuse the system or flat out commit fraud. It is a shame that people are that dishonest that often. It boils my blood.

That does not mean that the rest of us get treated fairly, nor does it mean that the insurance companies are honest and willing to pay out legitimate claims. My personal experience and observations are the exact opposite. I am sure others feel the same way.

Are you a bad guy? I doubt it. The benefit of the doubt is that you are an honest guy trying to make an honest living and honestly trying to stick up for the market you work in. However, if the majority of honest folks think that they are getting the shaft by their insurers, it is certainly for a reason.

I would also submit that their are some wonderful insurance companies out there. Not all of us are privilaged enough to be insured by CHUBB or the like. :)

Enjoy the afternoon and thank you for your perspective on the topic.

The whole darn mess needs reformed, but as you said.... lets get back to fish.

I am going to wish I stopped posting on this 3 posts ago, but here goes. Imagine you are a business, you have your product, but you are not allowed to determine how much to charge for the product. The government gets to price it for you. Our company (remaining nameless) paid out $2.50 for every $1 in insurance we brought in in PML areas (probable maximum loss). We went to the state of Florida and asked if we could increase our rates in order to continue to be able to insure on the gulf coast. They said no, we pulled out. In the eyes of the public we deserted them, didnt show loyalty, left them stranded, etc etc. But in reality if you had a product you paid $2.50 for but the government made you sell it for $1 you wouldnt stay in business in that business either. You either have to find ways to cut costs (contract exclusions) or raise rates. When one is taken away you have to use the other. Insurance companys are just like the rest of the US, victums of over regulation, greedy politicians, and new unforseen weather patterns.

Now there are shady insurance companys out there, but it is your choice who you buy from, if you buy it at all. We could write a policy which covered anything and everything bad that could ever happen to you, you wouldnt want to pay what it cost. Bad things happen to good people all the time, its not the insurance companies fault. Without the insurance companies the economy would die. Would a bank give you a loan if it knew if it burnt to the ground they would loose their money? No. Would you get a car loan if the bank knew their $50K was riding around town without insurance? See the previous answer.

Its time we get mad at the source of the problems, lawyers, politicians, and fraudsters. But for now the press makes them the scape goats for Katrina. Show me the facts of windfall profits, I have seen the numbers, that simply isnt true, look at the profits the year after Katrina, and they years after as claims are paid. The year of Katrina were profits from the previous year, sorry to point out the obvious but again this is the mistrust which the media, politicians and lawyers have instilled in us. Trust me, there are no bonuses for denying claims. We would rather avoid the lawsuits and calls from the DOI's (departments of insurance). We only fight claims which are excessive, fraudulent, or intentional. Just as the previous poster said, its an old trick to inflate claims. Well, this causes us to find more exclusions to keep costs even. And it costs us more for our own lawyers to defend our interests.

I think because we are deeply involved with people during the worst times of their lives, somehow we get brought into it as a guilty party. You have an accident, someone dies, your home blows away (because you choose to live where hurricanes happen, or you live in a fish bowl and are shocked when your home floods) and its the big bad insurance companys fault. We dont cause accidents, hurricanes or deaths. We are here to try and financially restore you to the financial condition you were in pre-loss. If everyone played fairly we wouldnt have these issues.

If I dont reply again its because I am sick of talking about it.

[jasonh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10638936#post10638936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 0 Agios
Just back from mile marker 72 in the Keyssss :D
Yeah I can see it now I was wrong :(
Insurance company "Sir the fire departments report is saying you did that electrical work yourself with no permit"
Reefer "Yap I did, all the work was done by me with no permit"
Insurance company "That technicality wont stop us from paying your claim 100% sir, we are a good honest insurance company"
Reefer"Thank you sir"
and then a post in the DYI forum
reefer " 0 Agios thats a bunch of baloney, insurance company's are good and honest"
:D

Wow.

I'd like to know how the F.D. is going to know that the electrical was done by the homeowner without a permit. You should see the mess of electrical in my parents house that was done by the builder.

The only thing the FD is going to report is "caused by electrical" and probably what exactly went wrong. Now if the ins. co. wants to go out of their way to prove that it was due to negligence on the part of the homeowner, that is a different story.

I think we're losing sight of the original topic here. Can you do the work without a permit? Go for it. Chances are, nothing bad will come about. hell, I'm not going to file for a permit to switch out a faulty light switch, am I? I certainly wouldn't be hiring an electrician at, what is it, $75/hr.

As long as you have reasonable skill, and are confident you can do a nice clean job and won't burn your house down, go for it.

Sheesh

[jasonh]

burdenpi, I really really really liked your reply. Thank you.

Also...if I change the spark plugs on my car myself, and then sometime down the road the car blows up, I honestly doubt the insurance company is going to try and say because I didn't get permission to change the plugs, and it wasn't done by a licensed mechanic, they aren't going to pay. What a bunch of baloney.

[Young Frankenstein]

Sheesh kebob. jasohn

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10639103#post10639103 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasonh
burdenpi, I really really really liked your reply. Thank you.

Also...if I change the spark plugs on my car myself, and then sometime down the road the car blows up, I honestly doubt the insurance company is going to try and say because I didn't get permission to change the plugs, and it wasn't done by a licensed mechanic, they aren't going to pay. What a bunch of baloney. They try to find any excuse possible not to pay anyway, if you did the spark plugs and its a valid excuse, yes they will not pay.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10639053#post10639053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by burdenpi
The government gets to price it for you. Our company (remaining nameless) paid out $2.50 for every $1 in insurance we brought in in PML areas (probable maximum loss). Firstly, I think rent controls are worthless, but that is a different story. You did take a gamble by selling that insurance and guessing on the risk (no matter how educated that guess was).
You took the risk to make a profit and it did not pan out. You took the risk knowing that the fixed price was one of the parameters you had to work with :)

We went to the state of Florida and asked if we could increase our rates in order to continue to be able to insure on the gulf coast. They said no, we pulled out. That I do not have a problem with. It is smart business and better for you AND the customer. It still does not speak to the poor folks who get their honest claims denied. It may not be YOUR company, but it is a very rampant problem. Lawyers and politicians may be the root of the problem.. I will certainly give you that.

if you had a product you paid $2.50 for but the government made you sell it for $1 you wouldnt stay in business in that business either. Rent controls suck. No doubt, they create an imaginary market and more problems than good.

You either have to find ways to cut costs (contract exclusions) or raise rates. When one is taken away you have to use the other.Contract exclusions and litigation to twist the fine print to mean ANYTHING are two differnet things. One is honest, the other is more than dishonest.

Insurance companys are just like the rest of the US, victums of over regulation, greedy politicians I do agree 100%. It is a shame that things are where they are.

and new unforseen weather patterns. That however, is the gamble that you took writing the policy. It is afterall a bet in the most basic form. You ask for money betting that you will not have to pay it all back out.

Now there are shady insurance companys out there, but it is your choice who you buy from, if you buy it at all. Yes, but there is no mechanism in place to rate these companies. Furthermore they comapnies themselves do not make pulbic their payout to claim history. We the consumer are blind. We are also at the mercy of the responsible party's carrier (my hillside for example).

Its time we get mad at the source of the problems, lawyers, politicians, and fraudsters. I agree 100% That still does not get my hillside fixed :D

Trust me, there are no bonuses for denying claims. I would call not having to pay the claim a heck of a bonus :)
We only fight claims which are excessive, fraudulent, or intentional. Just as the previous poster said, its an old trick to inflate claims. Well, this causes us to find more exclusions to keep costs even. And it costs us more for our own lawyers to defend our interests.My experience and that of many others is that we do have to fight to get legitimate claims paid. It may be because of the fraud commited by others, but we still have to fight. I can name several instances in my own life where I have whitnessed this.

Like I said, thank you very much for your opinion. It is nice to get a view from somebody on the other side of the fence.

Believe it or not I agree with you more than you know. I just don't agree that anywhere near the majority of companies out there act with the claimants best interest, or anything close to it. No different than any other business I suppose. I know that most of my competition is dishonest with their customers as well.

[Young Frankenstein]

All I am gone say is 2 words KATRINA, and NEW ORLEANS

[Paul B]

Hi Paul always good to see you, is that an acrylic fish tank you are standing in or glass ? cause I am about to do the same after getting involved in these threads

O Agios, make sure it is a 480 panel to make it fast.

[Young Frankenstein]

:D

[Young Frankenstein]

I am immune to 480 by now :)

[burdenpi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10639212#post10639212 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 0 Agios
They try to find any excuse possible not to pay anyway, if you did the spark plugs and its a valid excuse, yes they will not pay.

No they will pay unless it is excluded in the contract. Stupidity is not excluded (we wish it was). Negligence is an underwriting factor but not a contract exclusion. Everyone is somewhat negligent or we wouldnt have claims to pay (fall asleep at wheel, leave stove on, etc).

As for the two words HurricNew Orleans ane and Katrina, I have two words in reply Flood and Exclusion. Flood is excluded on the homeowners contract because flood insurance is offered, sold and claims settled through the federal government. So if you have problem with a Katrina claim in New orleans, you should be made at the federal government, not your insurance company. Why? If we covered flood and you bought flood coverage you would be paying twice and only receive one potential payout, we can get you better rates by not covering things which are already covered.

If by "find any excuse not to pay" you mean look for contract exclusions, then yes we do. As I said before, if we covered everything possible no one would be able to afford insurance. If your neighbor gets sick of his house payment and torches it so he can get out of the payment, do you want your rates raised to pay for it? Thats why some exclusions are a good thing.

[burdenpi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10639225#post10639225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Firstly, I think rent controls are worthless, but that is a different story. You did take a gamble by selling that insurance and guessing on the risk (no matter how educated that guess was).
You took the risk to make a profit and it did not pan out. You took the risk knowing that the fixed price was one of the parameters you had to work with :)

[b] That I do not have a problem with. It is smart business and better for you AND the customer. It still does not speak to the poor folks who get their honest claims denied. It may not be YOUR company, but it is a very rampant problem. Lawyers and politicians may be the root of the problem.. I will certainly give you that.

[b] Rent controls suck. No doubt, they create an imaginary market and more problems than good.

[b]Contract exclusions and litigation to twist the fine print to mean ANYTHING are two differnet things. One is honest, the other is more than dishonest.

[b] I do agree 100%. It is a shame that things are where they are.

[b] That however, is the gamble that you took writing the policy. It is afterall a bet in the most basic form. You ask for money betting that you will not have to pay it all back out.

[b] Yes, but there is no mechanism in place to rate these companies. Furthermore they comapnies themselves do not make pulbic their payout to claim history. We the consumer are blind. We are also at the mercy of the responsible party's carrier (my hillside for example).

[b] I agree 100% That still does not get my hillside fixed :D

[b]I would call not having to pay the claim a heck of a bonus :)
[b]My experience and that of many others is that we do have to fight to get legitimate claims paid. It may be because of the fraud commited by others, but we still have to fight. I can name several instances in my own life where I have whitnessed this.

Like I said, thank you very much for your opinion. It is nice to get a view from somebody on the other side of the fence.

Believe it or not I agree with you more than you know. I just don't agree that anywhere near the majority of companies out there act with the claimants best interest, or anything close to it. No different than any other business I suppose. I know that most of my competition is dishonest with their customers as well.

There is a mechanism in place to rate the companys. The DOI for each state keeps track of financials and complaints, I saw you are in PA:

http://www.insurance.state.pa.us/cgi/gfsearch.pl?level=1&item=BeginG

Just go to google and type in "pennsylvania doi" (or whatever state you are in). Not sure who you are insured with, but you can link to their complaints and compare them to other companys complaints. This is the best indication of a companys attitude and claims settlement practices. In my experience, AMICA, The Hartford, USAA and AAA usually have the lowest complaint rates and best financials.

[BeanAnimal]

Thank you kindly for the information. I will certainly look into it.