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View Full Version : Does my powder brown have a chance?


t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 03:56 PM
:( I really don't want to lose him. Check him out:

May 25:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n189/t5Nitro/IMG_0246-1.jpg

June 13:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n189/t5Nitro/IMG_0503.jpg

August 21:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n189/t5Nitro/IMG_0918.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n189/t5Nitro/IMG_0915.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n189/t5Nitro/IMG_0914.jpg

August 23:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n189/t5Nitro/IMG_0920.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n189/t5Nitro/IMG_0919.jpg

Doesn't seem like he goes for the nori, but I fed formula 2 flakes and he ate. He comes right out to eat the flakes, otherwise he is staying near his cave a lot and just looking out into the open. He comes out to the front a few times and goes back in his cave.

Like I said, he did eat formula 2 flakes when I fed, but I think he had more of a miss than hit. He did eat, but it seems like he tried to take a flake and missed; you can tell his eyes are cloudy. My CBB disappeared totally just a few days ago, so I think he died and the snails ate him. The ammonia was 4.0 in the tank. I changed out the phosban, carbon, and 10 gallon water change and then the ammonia was 0. He was getting that way before though I think, just today it is real bad as shown in the last pics.

Looking right now, he swam to the other section of rocks and back to his again. Swims, but not like he use to all over the place. When I first got him, he got ich and stayed in front of the powerhead and then went and layed on his side on the sand bed under a rock. I think he almost didn't make it then. I also got him and he didn't eat anything but seaweed. I got him to eat like no other so he was fat, no line on his side at all.

What do you guys think?

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 04:01 PM
Also to mention my orange montipora cap was busted on one side and on the sand bed. Today I found my orange digitata busted on one of its largest branches. Not very fun since these are frags and I want them to grow and not grow and break lol. Do you think it is the powder brown trying to itch on things and busting the corals off?

Sheol
08/23/2007, 06:58 PM
Looks like serious case of HLLE. So sorry, I've read that Powder Browns are pretty delicate.

Matthew

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 07:15 PM
Just keep soaking his food in garlic and feeding? He comes out of the cave now like he use to. Swims near the algae clip and looks at it and eats formula 2 and prime reef flakes.

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 07:16 PM
The pics make it look a lot worse I think, but he is still scraped up a bit.

So he still eats and comes out of his cave again. I think I am going to feed him 3 times a day with flakes and keep the food in garlic xtreme. He ate twice already today, once with formula 2 and once with prime reef. I wonder if the ammonia spike from the CBB threw him off balance a bit. He had some ich and I think the copperband brought it in when I got it. Then it turned a bit worse and then after the CBB had gone missing, he looks like the pics above, so maybe the ammonia messed him up a bit more, and ya, they are delicate. I'm really glad he eats yet, maybe I can get him back to normal soon.

Icil
08/23/2007, 07:18 PM
fwiw this isn't the delicate powder brown (A. nigricans) but the hardier A. japonicus. Looks really bad though. HLLE usually comes from dietary defficiency, so I might enhance his food with vitamins and feed frequently.

Sk8r
08/23/2007, 07:18 PM
Soak his food in Zoe or Selcon. They have cured hlle. He started with a mild case of ich, and it progressed to something worse. He's been scratching on rocks, I suspect, and may have gotten a bacterial infection, which is worse than the ich infestation was. If he were mine, I'd pull him to qt, treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic like Maracyn, and dose his food with Zoe.

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 07:25 PM
Ok, is there a preference over zoe or selcon? I will get some. I don't have a QT tank for him. I don't like taking a large tang out and sticking it in a small tank anyway.

I just thought of that, I usually feed formula 2 flakes, nori, and frozen mysis shrimp each day. I only notice him eating the nori and formula 2, so it probably is a defficient diet. I have prime reef I am starting to feed him now along with the others.

What is your pick: zoe or selcon?

Sk8r
08/23/2007, 07:30 PM
You cannot use maracyn in your display tank, no matter what it says on the package: you risk taking out your bacteria from sandbed and rocks: antibiotics kill bacteria.
I know that a fish of my acquaintance was cured of hlle with zoe: that is the only datum I have for certain.

jnc914
08/23/2007, 07:31 PM
I completely agree with Sk8r. I disagree that the PBT has HLLE. I have cured fish with HLLE, and the PBT in question looks like a parasite infection that has led to infection. Did you add new specimen to the tank? I had an emperor that looked alot like the PBT pictured. After doing a FW dip, I found gill and body flukes that I suspect i introduced to the tank with the addition of a mystery wrasse from an LFS. You can definantly save him with a good QT, but he is not looking great. Good Luck, hope he pulls through.

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 07:31 PM
Thanks for the help, I will pick up some zoe.

jnc914
08/23/2007, 07:35 PM
Zoe and Selcon will not do aything for a parasite or a bacteria infection. What is pictured is not HLLE, look it up either here or on wet web media. Instead of buying those supplements buy Maracyn.

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 07:39 PM
Are they able to pull through on their own with keeping them fed? The pics I think make it look worse since the flash really highlights them and a close up. I could try and get a better pic of him.

I don't want to QT or fresh water dip for major stress reasons anyway, and catching him with epoxied rocks isn't going to happen.

Sk8r
08/23/2007, 07:41 PM
I would agree with you, jnc14. THe zoe will help his immune system, but Maracyn IN QT is the best choice. No available qt makes zoe the only last-ditch choice. But---

Try this if you don't have a large enough qt for him: go buy a 32 gallon Rubbermaid Brute trashcan, half fill with salt water of the same concentration, and medicate him in there, no carbon, nothing but a floss filter. The Brute material is safe, if wiped down, and the lack of view and light will keep him calm.

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 07:42 PM
I have a 46 gallon bowfront just sitting there, but not really the money to set it up or any place to set it up. As stated before, I won't catch him anyways.

jnc914
08/23/2007, 07:47 PM
I agree, catching that guy is going to be next to impossible. Unfortunately feeding the fish may sustain it for a little while, bt eventually the infestation will further weaken the fish and it will stop eating all together. when my Emp. first started looking like your PBT, he ate like a pig for the next week. Then he started to dart around the tank and would hide in the caves. Eventually the coating on his eyes made him almost blind. That is when i FW dipped him (which was a complete pain in the @ss due to matching the PH and temp). As soon as I dipped him massve amounts of flukes started dropping off the fish. The eyes immediately cleared, however shortly after introducing him to my sump, he got a bacterial infection that eventually led to his death because I did not dose with medication. It sucks to lose one of your favorite fish in the tank. Could you use eggcrate and section off portions of the tank in order to trap the PBT?

yoboyjdizz
08/23/2007, 07:47 PM
I would also soak his foods in vita chem and feed heavily lots of greens if you can.. Like jnc said could be a bacteria infection, but if its eating still thats a good sign.

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 07:49 PM
So there is no way to get around this without a QT with maracyn? I just checked Drs Foster and Smith and it is cheap, but catching him will make you pull your hair out lol. I tried catching my yellow tang in my 46 gallon when I transfered tanks and I had to tear all the rocks down and still couldn't catch him.

Sk8r
08/23/2007, 07:50 PM
There is one guaranteed way to catch an uncatchable fish if you have a potent pump and some barrels: you pump the water out, digging a well in the sandbed near the front glass.

As water sinks, the fish go for the last water: you net the fish you want, and re-water your tank as fast as you can. No corals or fish are harmed by this process. Sponges may suffer, but not likely so: this 'low tide' happens on many reefs and the fish go with the water. So you've caught him via his own instinct, and you can get him into qt.

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 07:52 PM
There is no way at all to get around this without a QT?

yoboyjdizz
08/23/2007, 07:52 PM
I would just feed heavily with vitamins and keep water quality up to par and the fish could fight it of itself but that is a risk cause you could lose it as well. IME it has worked for me.

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 07:54 PM
I think I guess I will try that way. Much easier for me and I'm not yelling that my corals are all busted again. :lol: Learned that with the yellow tang. I am going to snap a quick pic right now to get a better pic. I think it looks much worse in the above pics. Watch the thread for a bit for a new pic please.

Sk8r
08/23/2007, 07:55 PM
I honestly think it's better for the fish. You could go through all this and still lose him. But if you put him in a smaller tank and use garbage bags to black the sides, so he's in dim light and without things creeping up on him, he should be calm through the experience. If you want to move a horse through dangerous circumstances, you blindfold him, which removes the stimuli that make him crazy: I can attest this works with horses, and by my own more limited experience with large fish, it works with large, spooked fish, as well: limit the light, limit the stimuli, and they calm down.

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 08:04 PM
Here are some better pics:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n189/t5Nitro/IMG_0925.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n189/t5Nitro/IMG_0924.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n189/t5Nitro/IMG_0923.jpg

yoboyjdizz
08/23/2007, 08:16 PM
i agree best option would be to qt and medicate. On my qt i have the black background on back and sides like sk8r said helps the fish relax.

Voyager1000
08/23/2007, 08:19 PM
Let us know how things go, I just added a powder brown tang to my tank, so I know how you feel.

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 08:28 PM
When I first got mine he actually layed on his side under a rock on the sand. I pulled him through that too lol. So, if I don't QT him the chances of losing him are probably 90% or what? I just fed again and he eats frozen ocean plankton also. I have a 18 or so gallon plastic can that is black plastic I could fill up with 15 gallons of water or so. Would that work with a seio 620, 2 heaters, and some foam filter things (suppose to go in my overflow boxes - never used any).

If I don't QT with the maracyn, will every fish in my tank get this?

t5Nitro
08/23/2007, 08:31 PM
Update:

First time all day, after swimming next to the algae clip all day, he now finally took a few bites at the seaweed also.

Asuran
08/24/2007, 09:46 AM
like others have said also try to feed some meaty foods as well. my tangs go crazy over PE mysis.

bureau13
08/24/2007, 01:37 PM
If you can get him into a trap getting him out is easy. The only caveat there is if he's not that interested in food he will be somewhat less interested in the trap. I don't know, its worth a shot.

jds

t5Nitro
08/24/2007, 03:32 PM
Man, I got some zoe today and soaked the food in it and he ate one piece. Then he started doing some real fast spin arounds like twitching and floating around upside down/on side etc like he is on his way out. Right now he is on his back on a rock just sticking there.

I tried :(

Breathing hard right now, what about the freshwater dips, how do you do one, regular RO/DI or what is needed?

t5Nitro
08/24/2007, 03:37 PM
Crap, he is in a part on his back on the sand where I'll never reach him to get him out if he dies there. This sucks.

t5Nitro
08/24/2007, 03:57 PM
Well, not too long ago he entered the garbage, thanks for the advice on everything, but he didn't make it long enough for me to try anything.

The tank consists of:

2 true perc clonws
2 bartletts avatar
1 magnificent foxface
1 yellow tang

Anyone have any suggestions on a tang to go along with the established yellow tang? He is probably 3-4". I kind of wanted to get away from the regular yellow/blue combination. Maybe something a little different than the koles and tominis also.

GoingPostal
08/24/2007, 06:50 PM
Your going to have to set up a qt and treat all the fish for ich while leaving your tank fallow for six weeks or the next tang you add is going to go threw the exact same thing, your tank has ich.

t5Nitro
08/24/2007, 07:03 PM
I am going to not put anything in there for 1-2 months aside from what is already in there. Is zoe still a good thing to use for the other fish in general, just soak their food with it too?

Sheol
08/24/2007, 08:11 PM
So sorry for your loss. Too often by the time you notice something is seriously wrong, its already too late.

Condolences,
Matthew

t5Nitro
08/24/2007, 08:21 PM
The tank's ammonia showed 8.0 after I got him out right away. Then the tank showed 2.0 ammonia a little later, then back to 4.0, did a water change (5 gallons) and it's 1.0. Think the saltwater master test kit (liquid drops) is accurate or off?

jnc914
08/24/2007, 09:02 PM
I think there were additional issues besides ich that caused the PBT to pass. As I stated in the previous posts, your fish did have obvious signs of ich, but this was a fish that has been thriving in t5Nitro's tank for a while now. I have seen other photos of this fish and he was very healthy looking. I still believe the fish had other parasites, which could have included intestinal parasites or body and gill flukes. He was eating minimally and that lead to a depressed immune system. This opened up the PBT to other infections. Do any of the other fish have ich? There are alot of opinions on if Ich is always present in a tank. I tend to believe it is always in there waiting to pounce on weakened fish. As for adding another specimen, make sure you get a healthy one to start. I would probably hold off though to see if any of the other fish are infected. Sorry to hear about your lose.

t5Nitro
08/24/2007, 09:07 PM
Retested ammonia: The PBT died and it was 8.0, then went to 2.0, then to 4.0, then I did a 5 gallon water change and it was 1.0, now it is 2.0? Is the test kit wrong? My CBB went missing earlier this week and I can't find it anywhere, I would think the snails would have had him all gone by now though. I hope this test kit is wrong.

Yes, I think the clowns, yellow tang, and anthias may have some spots. They have all gotten ich many times and got through it, hoping they all get through it this time assuming my ammonia kit is wrong.

freshwater
09/02/2007, 02:51 PM
t5Nitro,

After looking at the pic of you PBT my fishes like PBT, Butterfly, Foxface, Moorishidol all shows the same symptom as yours so it might be that some sort of parasite has enter the water column or the marcorocks are leaching some thing which is causing their immune system to get weeken and then they dies. I did not took the pics but they are exactly same as yours, i also do feed them Garlic, selfon, protien....but in the end they all dies.

kcw1099
09/03/2007, 11:55 AM
If you get it out of the tank do so and medicate in there. If you can't try, blue lagoon medicated fishfood. It comes in powder form that you mix with water,and put it in the frezer to make it into a gel form.Feed the fish that food . I have used it before on a wide variety of symptoms and has worked great. Doesnt harm anything in the tank at all. Good luck