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Somrschool
08/25/2007, 11:20 AM
We are still trying to plumb a multi-tank system from our basement to the first floor. Anyone have suggestions on finding:

1. True union couplers for 1" pvc pipes or flexible pipe so that we can change things out/turn things off as we need to between the six tanks and the skimmer we hope to link together? (By "true union" I mean something that will couple together two pvc's without glue and without threaded twisting such that we can unhook one tank in six, remove/service it, and then return it to an inline position. We have untions such as these on our cannister filter.)

2. What is the middle range for display tank turnover? The pumps we've found that can pump up through our basement to our first floor (about 15 feet) will turn over our display about 12X/hr. Is that Ok?

THANKS in advance for responses!

BeanAnimal
08/25/2007, 11:43 AM
PVC unions are sold at HD and LOWES, Aquaticeco, Savko, etc.

You may not want all of your turnover to come from sump to tank flow. It is very inefficient. You may want to consider closed loops with pumps under the stands for the bulk of the tank flow.

Your sumps can then run moderate flow (enough to supply the skimmer really).

superchargeme
08/25/2007, 06:11 PM
Macmaster Carr or Grainger carry True unions. I normally choise one of these two places to buy from. Better selection, good luck. I'll agree with Bean, that would be to much turn over in the sump, unless your sump is, well large!

BeanAnimal
08/25/2007, 06:13 PM
Another note:

Buy your unions and valves AT LEAST 1 pipe size larger than the plumbing they will be attached to. Use bushings to step them down to the pipe size.

Unions and ball valves (even the best ones) are much narrower internaly than the fittings of the same size. So step up at least a size and you will be better off. I hope that makes sense.

Somerschool
08/26/2007, 05:26 PM
1. We haven't found unions at HD. I mean, we aren't talking about couplers that need to be cemented; we want to be able to take tanks offline if needed for maintenance.

2. We're planning on having two display tanks on the main floor, and cleaning/refugia in the basement, where there's room.

So, you guys are saying that if we have a couple of refugia in the basement, and a skimmer, all funneling into one central brute trash can sump, that we should then pump the aerated, cleansed, plankton-enriched water upstairs to under-display-tank sumps and cycle them more quickly through from there?

In my mind, this is what I'm seeing now:

Display tank outflow--> basement collector tub (20 gal) --> skimmer --> another collector tub that has four outflows. Water flows from here into one of four refugia, each of which has a different ecology (mud, sand, sea grass, etc.). EACH of these flows back into a central Brute trash can sump. IN THERE, we plan to put a powerful pump (1200 gal/hr) that returns our water to the display tanks. But, for an 80 bow display tank, that's not the fastest turnover.

NOW, I'm hearing you say:

Keep the loop in the basement, but have the water pumped to a small sump under each display tank and cycle that water... somehow... faster? Please explain!

BeanAnimal
08/26/2007, 05:35 PM
They way I see it you have (2) options.

1) Both tanks on 1 sump and filtration system
2) Both tanks on their own sumps and filtration systems.

I would not use a rubbermaid trash can. I would use a large heavy duty rubbermaid stock tank.

CASE 1:

The displays would both drain into the main sump. Hooked to the main sump would be your skimmers and other filtration. A return pump would send water back to each tank.

I would drill the tanks for closed loop intakes and returns (or intakes and use Oceans motions for over the top returns) and place the closed loop pumps in the stand. A sequence dart loop for each display would be sufficient for flow.

CASE 2:

Exactly the same but each tank would have its own sump, skimmer, dosing equipment etc.

You do not want to have a sump in the stands and in the basement. There are too many things to balance. It can be done, but makes things more complicated than need be, for little or no gain.

superchargeme
08/26/2007, 05:54 PM
Bean makes good points. I would go with option one. Less equipment, larger equipment, but less. You asked for true unions? I fail to see where in your systen you will need them. As Bean said go one size larger with reducers and ball valves. maybe not as clean, but cheaper. It doesn't sound like space is a concern, Good luck, oh lowes carries unions HD is limited in there pvc options.

BeanAnimal
08/26/2007, 06:05 PM
The unions will never hurt...

I use them before and after every pump or other hard plumbed piece of equipment.

Like I said, just use the next size up and bush them down.
supercharmeme is correct... HD is very limited in what is has in the PVC plumbing section.

Look at the other companies I mentioned in my first post, you will find what you need.

Good luck.

nyvp
08/26/2007, 09:55 PM
I love lowes true unions. HD only has ball valves.

ToniYo
08/27/2007, 06:39 AM
I like the true unions at Lowes as well. However, the only ones that I have been able to find do require that you glue pvc to one part of the union. I haven't found any with threaded ends.

lizardarm
08/27/2007, 06:56 AM
www.flex-pvc.com had good prices (I thought so anyway)
Unions and ball valves (even the best ones) are much narrower internaly than the fittings of the same size. So step up at least a size and you will be better off. I hope that makes sense
yeah, I noticed this when I bought all mine.

Somrschool
08/27/2007, 08:34 AM
Lizard: that link didn't work for me, and guys, I can't see true unions on the Lowe's website: links aren't working properly. Can anyone give me a link to a PICTURE of a true union? Maybe we're missing them at the stores... I *think* I know what they are... but maybe not. Have only read about them as ways to make systems more flexible. Can any of these be true unions, functionally? Meaning, if the goal is to join water flows without cementing PVC, can any of the "quick disconnect" fixtures at US Plastics.com work?

Bean wrote:
The displays would both drain into the main sump. Hooked to the main sump would be your skimmers and other filtration. A return pump would send water back to each tank.

I would drill the tanks for closed loop intakes and returns (or intakes and use Oceans motions for over the top returns) and place the closed loop pumps in the stand. A sequence dart loop for each display would be sufficient for flow.

I need some definitions of terms:

What's a closed loop?

What's a dart loop, by contrast?

And, you're saying one pump in the sump for each tank, right?

TIA!

lizardarm
08/27/2007, 08:36 AM
I'm sorry, I posted it wrong...
www.flexpvc.com

lizardarm
08/27/2007, 08:38 AM
Sequence Dart is a type of pump.
A closed loop system is one in which the intake (suction) side of the pump draws directly from a tank and returns the water to the tank (without the water first draining into the sump through an overflow)

Somrschool
08/27/2007, 08:43 AM
Thanks for reposting! So... do you NOT need to cement ball valves to pvc pipes when connecting? Do they ACT as true unions?

SORRY to be dense... but we just want to not create a cemented together monster here...

BeanAnimal
08/27/2007, 08:50 AM
somerschool...

From the sound of the questions it appears that you you may be very new to the hobby. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

If you are very new to the hobby, a dual tank setup with a basement sump is going to be a rather large undertaking. Not only are the mechanics going to be more advanced, but so will the care of the system. The logic needed to ensure you do not end up with flooded floors and/or dead livestock is much more complicated in a sense.

Do you have a local club? They would be an invaluable resource to help you undertake a project of this size.

As mentioned:

The "dart" is a pump made by MDM Sequence (Reeflo). You would have the tank drilled to accomodate bulkheads to feed the pump and the pump would return water directly back to the tank. This pump is a very quiet and reliable pump that could be placed in the stand.

Your sump or sumps would be in your basement and return water to each of the display tanks. Becuase of the extra pressure needed to move water upstairs, we do not want to try and obtain the desired flow by pumping water from the basement back to the display. We only want to pump enough water through the sump to keep the skimmer, filters, and dosing equipment running.

BeanAnimal
08/27/2007, 08:54 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10643360#post10643360 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Somrschool
Thanks for reposting! So... do you NOT need to cement ball valves to pvc pipes when connecting? Do they ACT as true unions?

SORRY to be dense... but we just want to not create a cemented together monster here...

No you must solvent weld (glue) all slip type PVC fittings.

If you look at the sites I posted, they sell PVC unions.

You can get stand alone unions.
Half union ball valves (a union on 1 side).
True union ball valves (a union on both sides).

The PVC should be supported with pipe clamps or similar supports. You do not want the weight of the water pulling on that lenght of pipe, or the bulkheads on the tank.

Your in for a large project. I would certainly enlist the hands on help of somebody who has worked with something like this before. A dual tank, basement sump setup is not something to leave to trial and error :)

Ewan
08/27/2007, 08:59 AM
Beware of the ballvalves with the unions on one side only! I ordered several of these from Marine depot years ago, and they are terrible!

If you remove the loose part of the union, the ballvalve will no longer be watertight. This completely negates having a union and a ballvalve together.

I do have some "true unions" which I have always believed to refer to a ball valve with a union on either end. These work as they should, and will be water tight when one side is removed.

Can anyone else relate to what I'm talking about with the single-union ballvalves? I wasted a ton of money on them.

Somrschool
08/27/2007, 09:01 AM
Bean: regarding new to the hobby: You're right AND wrong. :-) I've had fresh water tanks since a child. Furthermore, my husband and I had a 75 G. salt (with live rock and plenum) going for about three years successfully. We then started traveling a lot, so we took down our tank (about five years ago). You would not BELIEVE how much things have changed in five years!

Five years ago, there was no such thing as a refugium (at least that we'd heard of; plenums were the big news). On top of this, we have very little diy experience and a small start-up budget, but are fast learners an (maybe overconfident?) early acceptors. We understand a LOT about the actual chemistry of water purity and about the animals, it's the plumbing, pump names, etc. that have us confused. We're not about to jump quickly; that's why I ask so many questions here!

As we were "boning up" in returning to the hobby, we asked HERE on this board (beginner section) if we could link two tanks. We got the advice there that we should consider doing so through our basement, putting all the filtration (refugia, skimmer, etc.) down there and simply pumping water up and down a level. As we've been working out the plumbing for this, we've become confused.

If I've done it right, here's a link to the earlier advice we got here on moving things to the basement. TIA for your time!

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1175810&perpage=25&pagenumber=1 :rolleyes:

ALSO, FYI, our new display tank IS drilled: two holes in a sump. We got it used and the former owner thought he was selling us (and we thought we were buying) a state of the art trickle filter with active bio-balls working in the overflow. Imagine our surprise... :rollface:

Somrschool
08/27/2007, 09:18 AM
How do I find a local club? I think that's an outstanding idea!

woz9683
08/27/2007, 09:28 AM
Buy your unions and valves AT LEAST 1 pipe size larger than the plumbing they will be attached to. Use bushings to step them down to the pipe size.

Unions and ball valves (even the best ones) are much narrower internally than the fittings of the same size. So step up at least a size and you will be better off. I hope that makes sense.

This isn't necessarily true, the ID of 1" sch40 pipe is right around 1.05". The ID of a Hayward true union ball valve is exactly 1". You lose 0.05" diameter, which to me, really isn't significant.

BeanAnimal
08/27/2007, 10:59 AM
woz, it was a generization regarding most of the stuff out there in most of the sizes. I am sure there is more than 1 exception. I would agree that the Hayward stuff is in general closer to full port, than the other common stuff. :)

I just offered a solution that fits most scenarios.

Also, I use thin wall PVC, not sch40, so it makes even more of a difference :)

B&K, American Valve and other common varieties are horrible with regard to I.D. when it comes to valves and unions. Have a look down the throat of an B&K BV sold at Lowes or HD... it has the I.D. of a 3/4 pipe.

BeanAnimal
08/27/2007, 11:04 AM
So you just new... to the new stuff. That will help a lot.

Local club? Talk to your LFS. They may be reluctant to tell you. You may have to talk to folks in the SW sesction that are shopping for corals and the like. (many LFS do not like the local clubs, as they feel threatened by them).

Check out the local club forums here for one in your area as well (you do not list your locality.. so no guess here).


Do you have photos of the equipment you already have? That would help us get you started on the best way to do this.

Somrschool
08/27/2007, 11:27 AM
I can take some later (at work now)... but they're all standard.
They are:

*80 Gal drilled bow tank w/sump off center, back, with glass top and with stand. We just bought this display tank used with a trickle filter, which WE thought was "state of the art" before we started to reaquaint ourselves--so it was when we quit--sheesh!), a canister filer, and with a pretty high end compact flourescent fixture (still not halide, but oh well). WAS bought (by us) a month ago as our reef tank, but since reading up, we feel it will too quickly be outgrown, so we're starting it with fish and live rock, and will move fish to the tank below (when our two-tank system will come online).

*75 Gal rectangular Perfecto (standard 4' X 18" X 20" with glass lids and OLD, insufficient florescent fixture, not drilled (our old setup) will need a new stand (custom built in) for our kitchen. We plan to put FISH in that one, when we build a large, custom coral tank and implement all that's in our dreams right now. FOR NOW, we're putting fish in the bow and leaving the kitchen tank (this one) offline entirely (unless someone says differently for a good reason).

Also own:
*30 Gal Perfecto hex w/stand (our oldest tank) which we're going to operate on a closed loop (old style) as a QT tank.
*1 large canister filter
*2 old fashioned (5-yr old) sand pumps--which were hang on the back types and I think they're like totally gone out of vogue, to be replaced by refugia/RDSB's.
*assorted power heads, tubing, etc.
*four new tubs from WalMart for refugia (like those we've seen in our new books)
*assorted plastic bulkheads, elbows, ball valves, and pvc pipe (oh, and a new hold drill) bought for assemby

We plan to build a counter-current skimmer; we're not sure of the size until we see how much water to bring online during phase 1. Matter of fact, let me outline our phases:

Phase 1: get the quarentine 30 hex (with DSB and cured live rock up and running on a dedicated loop... include trickle filter here, or throw it out?)

Phase 2: get the 80 bow ready for fish: sugar-fine sand 4" deep, 40 or so lbs. of cured live rock, a refugium, and a skimmer at the least. (Where to PUT refugium and the skimmer, in light of futuer dreams, is our question of the moment.)

Phase 3: get the 75 drilled (probably) and up and running in the kitchen, and move the fish from the bow to the kitchen tank.

Phase 4: sell the bow.

Phase 5: install a (probably custom built) 24" (d) X 7' (l) X 26" (h) reef tank with 6" DSB in the place of the bow as a coral display tank, move all our refugia, filtering, etc. stuff to the basement, and connect kitchen, coral tank on one system.

SO: Phase 5 is a ways off, but we want to learn about refugia, water purity using refugia, plankton generators, water motion, etc. all for corals (which we have never kept since no one was that we knew five years ago) using our fish tanks (phases 1-2) before we start our big coral tank.

Clear as... seawater? LOL. I'll take pic's tonight, God willing.

THANKS again for hangin' with us.



We are NOT committed to building this thing all at once; but if we buy/make something... like a skimmer... we want to build it for the total system, not just the 80 bow, which is the first tank we'll bring online (along with the QT tank).

I did just post to a local fish club here, so thanks for that. It may result in a wonderful, real live fish buddy who can help us out.

SO: now that we're all caught up with one another

BeanAnimal
08/27/2007, 11:38 AM
I would nix the DSB in the QT tank. It should be bare bottom and only needs a filter and flow. You want to be able to medicate in that tank if need be, then drain and clean it.

If you want a DSB in the display, then go with deeper than 4". It will settle quite a bit over time.....

I am sure after the photos, we will have plenty more to help you refine your ideas.

BeanAnimal
08/27/2007, 11:39 AM
Now where do I find a wife that is this happy to have aquariums all over the house.... I get grief for just mentioning upgrades.

Somrschool
08/27/2007, 11:45 AM
Awww. I just think that salt water tanks glorify God amazingly; I want 'em all over the house! Great reminders for kids and grandkids about the amazing power of Creation, imho. :rollface:

Good point about DSB in QT tank. I forgot the medication thing; and also about catching undesireables using bait... but, how to keep corals alive for 2-4 wks. in a bare bottom tank without refugia to produce plankton, etc? I know it's future, but just curious.

brian@sen
08/27/2007, 01:44 PM
In your absence from salt water alot of things have changed. I know alot of people in my local club have went bare bottom because to get the flow they want for SPS corals they can't keep sand on the bottom. I think most of them feed some kind of plankton formula to thier corals even with the refugium producing so going a month feeding you should be fine.

woz9683
08/27/2007, 02:46 PM
woz, it was a generization regarding most of the stuff out there in most of the sizes.

Just thought he should know it wasn't an absolute :) . I thought it was until pretty recently when I took the time to look up Hayward's specs. I was pleasantly surprised how large the openings in these particular valves were, and they can get kind of pricey as the size increases so it's worth checking.

BeanAnimal
08/27/2007, 02:47 PM
Yeah.. pleasantly surprised until the sticker shock hits you :)

woz9683
08/27/2007, 05:02 PM
lol, you got that right