ATB skimmers, any in the US?

[hahnmeister]

Hello. Its been a while since I first saw this skimmer, and have been looking around at other sites, and would like to learn more about them. The cone shape offers many advantages over the current cylinder w/ reducer design, and for mfg's, it may be cheaper than buying acrylic pipe even. I know mavgi has been watching them too... but I wanted to see if I could get some input in a seperate thread. FWIW, I have contacted Anton Burian in hopes that I can have a 'Small' cone model shipped to me. Normally I would just make one, but I like the design enough to get the real deal. If I can, I would just get the skimmer w/o the pump, which should lower the price of the Small Cone Skimmer, and bypasses the whole problem with the 110v/220v, since I have Sicce PSK 2500s, a Quiet One 3000 now, and a couple eheim needlewheel/threadwheel pumps now... so I have it covered. So I thought I would post some pics and ask around about this Austrian maker.

http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/produkte1.html

Cute little eheim 1250 skimmer:
http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/Erweitert/PFD150_1.jpg

http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/D400/D400_1.JPG

And an airstone skimmer... I link the image because I thought of the same 'low turbulence' ring shaped skimmer feed at the top of the skimmer long ago... nice to see that it works!
http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/Extra/DL150_1.JPG

And here are the CONES... the one I am interested in:
http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/Extra/sz_cone_544.jpg

http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/sk_imeinsatz_187.jpg

A white version:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/white_german_208.jpg

The rest of the CONES:
http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/Erweitert/atbsmalluc_329.jpg

And the new Pyramid skimmer:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/pyramid_small_size_181.jpg
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/bild_5_183.jpg

[hahnmeister]

A new 'nano-cone', fed with an eheim 1250:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/atb_nanocone_549.jpg

http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/nano_small_cone_atb_201.jpg
'Nano' means good for up to 211 gallons!!! Then again... its using this:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/nano_kegel_fadenrad_113.jpg
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/nano_kegel1_856.jpg
to get this:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/dscn5175_913.jpg
From what I make of it, ATI used to have a needlewheel eheim 1250, and ATB took it and made it into a threadwheel.
I figure maybe I can create some hub-bub over here and someone might pick them up... or maybe I will myself...lol.

I gotta say, I love it... he gives power ratings not only in RMS, but VA + PF, so you can see how much it will heat the water as well.
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/00016_154.jpg

[trmiv]

Those are some nice looking skimmers.

[skimmy]

i contacted them directly to enquire about getting the prices for shipping them here, and selling in the store i work in, hopefully i will get a response soon:)
that nano looks sweet!
did you catch the price on it?

[trmiv]

Wow those small size cone one's aren't cheap! 675 euros, that's $920.

I'm not sure what the difference is between the Abschäumer D150 and the Pfannenabschäumer D150. One is about $435 and the other (the red one) is $540.

[Jim_S]

Yeah, these skimmers are not cheap. But I like how they have such a wide variety of models and pumps. Some use eheims, some use red dragons.

I'm sure its just a matter of time before an American or Canadian distributor picks this line up. Just like the ATI skimmers.

[Reef Sponger]

Nice looking skimmers. Great foam shots!

[rishma]

I have to ask the obvious....

other thank looking really good, what are the (percieved) advantages of the cone body? There is a certain sensibility about smooth transition and consolidation of the foam, but it also cuts the total skimmer volume significantly.

hahn/others - care to put some science to it?

thanks

[hahnmeister]

Well Anton got back to me very quickly... wants 500 euro for the small cone skimmer (not the nano) w/o pump, and 42.20 for shipping (675 Euro w/ pump) . He said that he has 110v eheims on the way because of others in the US who are buying them. He said he can even send me a pump after I try my own if it doesnt work out. So right now, 500 Euro equals $681.36 US. We will see... I am interested, thats for sure.

victor90 has also contacted me asking about who to contact about being a US distributor for ATB, so I will get some info for him.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10652139#post10652139 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rishma
I have to ask the obvious....

other thank looking really good, what are the (percieved) advantages of the cone body? There is a certain sensibility about smooth transition and consolidation of the foam, but it also cuts the total skimmer volume significantly.

hahn/others - care to put some science to it?

thanks

Okay, here is the advantage as I see it...

A cone has its volume midpoint at the height midpoint. So a skimmer with a cylinder that is 3' tall will have its midpoint at 18" from the bottom.

A cone has its midpoint much lower, often at the 1/3 the height. Now, a cone has about the same volume as the average of its top and bottom diameter... so a skimmer with a 10" bottom and 6" top is about the same as a 8" pipe. A skimmer uses the bottom section for 'sorting'. This is where bubbles are intended to seperate from the water that is flowing down to the exit at the bottom to go out the standpipe. Then, above this, is where the pumps turbulence is taken care of. A Euro-reef, Deltec, or H&S style needs extra space for the water turbulence to be dealt with in the body so it doesnt disrupt the head. The 12" diameter of some of these skimmers is to deal with the water turbulence more than the air throughtput. A 12" diameter body can easily handle over 4000lph of air... as long as the water turbulence is reduced. The 3000lph of a Euro-reef RC750 is low, but needed because the body has to handle the turbulence... otherwise, a 8-10" diameter would be enough for 3000lph of air.

So here's where the cone has the advantage: if the turbulence is handled by some diffuser method... like the bubble plate, then the body doesnt need to be as large at the center. The sorting area still needs space, but this happens to be at the bottom of the cone... its widest part... and if you are using a 8" base, 4" neck cone vs. a 6" cylinder, you actually have all the advantages of a 8" diameter sorting area for the same volume body. And, a cone means that for the same volume as the cylinder, the water level can be lower in the body. So you can have a large base for sorting and to fit a large bubble-plate, a lower waterline in the skimmer for better pump efficiency (less back pressure), and in theory, the less abrupt transition to reduce to the neck should preserve the skimming ability of all those bubbles that hit this barrier, rather than knocking the skimmate right off. So to sum it up, the cone gives more volume where a skimmer needs it, and less where it doesnt.

[rishma]

hanh, your explanation seems sound, but the only real benefit in performance would come from "the less abrupt transition to reduce to the neck should preserve the skimming ability of all those bubbles that hit this barrier, rather than knocking the skimmate right off."

this seems to be the only thing not achievable with a cylinder design unless you have a very gentle cone shaped transition.

I am not ignoring the efficiency of space arguments, but really just interested in how a cone would perform better than a cylinder. It does not seem to be less $$$

one other thing
I gotta say, I love it... he gives power ratings not only in RMS, but VA + PF, so you can see how much it will heat the water as well.

can you exlain to the non-IEEE types (like me, metallurgist) how one would relate power factor ect to heat transferred to water? I would guess that as PF approaches 1, the heat dumped to water would be minimal becase power is efficiently turned into water movement, but beyond this I am not sure.

thanks as always

[hahnmeister]

power factor helps compute the pump efficiency. if the power factor is a .5, then, at the very least, 1/2 of its electrical use (real power) is going to heat the tank/air.

[pjf]

Hahn,

Two questions:

• The exhaust port on the ATB standpipe is barely 5 inches above the floor. What is the recommended water level for the small and nano skimmers? Are you planning to place it on a platform inside your sump?

• The ATB looks similar to an ATI Bubble Master with a cone shape to reduce turbulence. I hope that this cone provides enough foam stability to make up for the lack of dwell time in this co-current skimmer. Do you expect this skimmer to be consistent and stable?

Thanks!

[hahnmeister]

The outlet is low, but thats because its controlled like the BK mini line... the standpipe twists to adjust the gate valve. Ill admit... I dont like gate valves... but with a super low skimmer like this, it might be a different story. Still... I have considered asking for a telescoping standpipe if possible.

These arent as crazy turbulent as the ATI... they are more like BK supermarines in that respect. The 9" base of the S cone model is for only an eheim 1260, which in the EU is a 700lph pump only. And its not shooting all that up some narrow pipe in the center... there is a small ring around the bubble plate.... but its pretty short.

As far as skimmers go... this is a slightly different beast... its more like a beckett in this respect... less about dwell time, and more about emulsification of all the water into a foam head. This is a way around the 'usual methods'.

Also, I will note: To those who think after all I say here about taller skimmers and such that 'why would I go with such a short skimmer?' and 'its not a recirc... hahn is buying a non-recirc!!' Well, this is for a 125g tank, in my living room. I have thought about a 5' tall cylinder of bubbles standing next to the tank, but Im not so sure. My tank is a real modernist work of art... and if I dont think I can disguise the skimmer enough to go with this, then I might want to stick with something in my sump. Its not my 'ideal' by any means, but it works. Besides, since I can vent the skimmer right to the outside along with my canopy, I will most likely be running ozone as well to make up for the shortness. But for my tank, which has a pretty low load and is set up with very well established LR, I dont know that I would even need a 5' tall skimmer, even if only 6" in diameter. So, if not going with a taller skimmer, what would I want... well... a bubble plate with a nice wide diameter. As it turns out, my sump is a 40L, so getting a 12" diameter cylinder is too much, and 10" is even pushing it. The 9" base cone has the space where it counts, but it narrow up top so it doesnt crowd my sump. The low throughput of just the eheim (not that its shy exactly) means less turbulence and microbubbles, esp with the 9" diameter of the sorting area at the base. The bubble plate means a nice calm rise of bubbles from the bottom... prolly a dwell time equivalent similar to a 30-36" tall recirc skimmer in the end due to the lowered turbulence. So no... its not my ideal... but its prolly the best bang for the buck in this range.

Dont get me wrong though... instead of ATB, I am considering having the cone made (if ORCA cant) and sending it to ORCA to have them make a recirc version with a telescoping standpipe, halo shaped inlet feed, and an ATI BM/BK Supermarine style bubble plate so the bubble plate is even lower on the body. The ATB is only 22" tall, like the ATIs/ BKs, etc. I technically could do up to 30" tall under my stand... so a taller cone may be in order. Well see... I have a skimmer on there all ready... so its not like Im in dire need to get something ASAP... Its just kinda ugly.

[crazinezz978]

i think my LFS might have one of those, one of their skimmers does say "ATB" on it, ill find out next time im down there

[GuySmilie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10650180#post10650180 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/nano_kegel1_856.jpg


Jon, are these bodies one piece?
I can see that the cone transitions into a cylinder, but I don't see a disconnecting joint inside that dark plastic collar. Is the cone glued to the cylinder?

[hahnmeister]

The support arm that holds the standpipe in place also serves as a neck that holds the cup on. There is a very fine seam inside this grey piece. The cup and this part do come off.

[GuySmilie]

Also Jon, I've photo edited your picture a bit to better see the details of that pump. I'm not familiar with this pump. If that's a venturi, it looks mighty short. Do you have any info, details, or drawings of how it works?

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/147143atb_venturi.jpg

[hahnmeister]

Its going to be just like the ATI Sicce ones from the looks of it. A short venturi is a good thing.

[dgill]

hahnmeister... I'm one of the people that Anton referred to, he checked a couple of weeks ago for me and is able to get the 110V Eheims locally in Austria and modify, so I ordered a Nano Cone and Small Cone. Also ordered a calc reactor and he has a really nice looking zeo reactor too (see below).

http://home.cfl.rr.com/dsgill/ZEO_N.jpg

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10673337#post10673337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GuySmilie
Also Jon, I've photo edited your picture a bit to better see the details of that pump. I'm not familiar with this pump. If that's a venturi, it looks mighty short. Do you have any info, details, or drawings of how it works?

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/147143atb_venturi.jpg

the impeller that run on this pump (on the ATB ) it's this one :

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/ehe6062_2_358.jpg

[dgill]

Some of the ATB skimmers are now using a mesh wheel I believe...

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10689602#post10689602 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dgill
Some of the ATB skimmers are now using a mesh wheel I believe...

as i know they not.... maybe someone try but not sure :D

by the way they make turbulence more then the ATI but the pump creat a great foam , the pump have power to build the foam half size from the skimmer body and the con shape help to move the foam quick to the cup. also the skimmer have the exhaust port lower then a standard and in this way you can work with a stronger pump and to keep the water level low in the skimmer body and to creat foaming machine :lol:

here it's the supersize on 6000 liter tank :

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/blom0927_cone16uur.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/mavgi/attachment_1_207.jpg

[dgill]

mavgi, the larger models I agree use a needlewheel, but the Nano Cone that hahn posted above and that I just ordered definitely uses a mesh wheel... here is a picture:

http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/nano_kegel_fadenrad_113.jpg

As you can see, this is not a DIY job with cables holding the mesh in place. Rather, a nut held in place with clips. Very nice IMO.

[mavgi]

congratulation it's a great skimmer , you going to love it.

from some test that i did i am sure the big one can work on the mesh wheel as well and even perform better .

[dgill]

... the nog on that Supersize Cone is impressive. Do you think the cone shaped body helps reduce resistance as the foam head moves up into the cup?

[mavgi]

yes and you going to see that on your skimmer :)

[sjm817]

http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/Erweitert/atbsmalluc_329.jpg

Besides the models above, they have another new one with an advanced digital control and reverse conical collection cup in the works.

http://www.samstores.com/_images/products/BRAUN_KF185.jpg

[dgill]

Finally, there's the model we've been waiting for!

[sjm817]

I also hear the Small, Normal and Super size models will be officially named Tall, Grande and Venti.

[luke33]

I'm just not impressed with any of these skimmers as there very much so overpriced. There efficient yes, but you can build your own for 1/4 the price.

[Paulairduck]

I have to say I paid a lot for my cone KZ skimmer, but it has been worth every penny. It skims like no other skimmer I have ever had.

:eek1: :smokin: :eek1:

[dgill]

Yes, the conical design is nice... I almost went with a BK Mini but I like the idea of a standard pump (Eheim) and the conical design, and although its speculation only I think the ATB offers increased contact time compared to the BK Mini design.

[hahnmeister]

Can I get one with whipped skimmate on top, and some ice blended in... a frappa-abschäumer.

For those who are wondering where those pics from mavgi and others are coming from, here are some links... you might want to read because there is some info as well.

You can use http://www.google.com/translate_t to give you a pretty decent translation even if you dont know German well enough.

Here is the ATB sponsor forum for meerwasserinfo.at:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=49

Within, you will see Mare Nostrum's money shots of the Super Size:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=494&sid=1900dc81a2bc37434c0c2a5815f712a6

Video:
http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/MA/KegelpfannenabschaeumerSmall.html

Other forum:
http://53852.rapidforum.com/topic=100672541416

Thread on the 'pyramid' body Small:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=550

I beginning to think this one may interest me more than the regular small, since my sump is a 40L... so the 9" diameter base of the regular small might be a bit bulky for in there.

Chris from Zeovit has a site to review his new one...
http://www.korallenzucht.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=42&Itemid=33

The 'nano' and its threadwheel are covered here:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=49

Anton is considering a version with two eheim 1260 pumps, since the Medium Red Dragon one only gets about 1500lph of air, and the Small model gets 60% of that with the one eheim.

[luke33]

I just don't get it how this is better than a normal NW. if you take a 10" diameter skimmer vs the 10" atb....why is it better. Seems like the normal NW skimmer could handle the air better if it were built right.

[hahnmeister]

Well, the geometry of a cone allows it to handle the same volume as a cylinder, with with a lower water line (midpoint of a 6" cylinder is 1/2 its height, midpoint of a 4"neck, 8" base cone is about 1/3 its height) so you get less water back pressure on the pump... so you get more air intake possibly. Other than that, its speculation, but the 'less abrupt' transition from the body to the neck may improve skimming efficiency. It seems to be true for KZ's becketts. Just imagine if all these years, we have been skimming so all the bubbles that hit the reducer necks on our skimmers are losing their ability to skim... so only bubbles that rise in the center and never hit a reducer area would skim. It is possible. If you check in those threads, one has a side by side against an ATI/Fauna-Marin Ultraskim style skimmer. The results are listed.

[luke33]

I understand what your saying jon, but imo, its all in the pump. I would agree if its a cone shapped skimmer there 's less friction for sure, but the main ingredient is to have the right scfh per diameter and neck........as well as flow. The small cone shape isn't going to be any better when compared to a 6" diameter skimmer with a better pump imo.

[hahnmeister]

Yeah... Ill admit. Im not sure. What gets me is while reading through all those forum pics... they all seem pretty awesome for the bioload. Im sure its the pump (proven and reliable eheim 1260), the height (more than a BK mini), the low turbulence (nice, spread out bubble plate like a BK)... and the semi-decent price (competes with BK mini 200 pretty well). The idea was to try out the cone design and see for myself. AquaMedic felt strong enough about their cone shaped collection cup neck to patent it a decade or so ago... so there might be something to it.

BK's have a very large neck diameter... which could be part of the reason for their awesome output... less of a reducer neck for bubbles to hit and lose their 'passsengers' on the way up.

Also, Klaus feels strong enough about the cone shape to develop the SuperMarine based on a similar idea really. Even ATI, from what I have seen them post, seems to be using a cone shaped body for the BM300... at least thats what they posted a while ago... could be different now.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10689412#post10689412 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dgill
hahnmeister... I'm one of the people that Anton referred to, he checked a couple of weeks ago for me and is able to get the 110V Eheims locally in Austria and modify, so I ordered a Nano Cone and Small Cone. Also ordered a calc reactor and he has a really nice looking zeo reactor too (see below).

http://home.cfl.rr.com/dsgill/ZEO_N.jpg

Well, looks like ''someone' (Ill let them say it themselves when they are ready) was looking for a new product line to distribute/import for a new storefront. Upon seeing this thread... 'bingo'. So I hooked Anton up with a distributor and now ATB is sending some units to the US via a new US distributor! Stay posted... it will be 20 days to get mine, but Ill do a full workup & review on this skimmer. See... all you gotta do is post some pics here on RC, ask a few questions, and things just fall into place... whoopie! But it does look like ATB has some other pretty cool things as well... the skimmers just are the most 'noticable'. But like you said dgill... there are other things that do look nice...

Reactors/mixers...
http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/erneuert/kd200_vorne2.jpg
http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/Aqua/Erweitert/NEU2.JPG
http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/Erweitert/DSCN4368.JPG
Media chambers...
http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/Aqua/Erweitert/reinwasserH600_klein.jpg

So it is a full line. Pretty cool, eh? Those calcium reactors use the pump outlet facing up, with that long loop, and the top 'bell' on the reactors is the same setup as a Schuran, where the CO2 gets recycled in the reactor. Oh, and although I know there is one other company that does the kalk reactors with the pump in the reactor... nice to see another. I have helped some others DIY this type of setup... it makes alot more sense to me to have a simple little electrical grommet coming out of a kalk reactor rather than all the plumbing and the pump itself. Simple yet effective.

[Ewan]

Thanks for the links, Hahnmeister.

Are you going to move forward and order the ATB?

I am really enjoying the power consumption of my modded 1250, as well as the excellent skimming. I recently added another layer of PF4 to bring it up to 4 layers. The air draw has increased dramatically (sorry, no air meter). I think the 1250 is a great performer, and the volute is HUGE relative to the power consumption.

I would like to get my hands on one of those stubby venturis though.

In my opinion, ATB needs some more persuasion to send you a demo unit. With the attention that your threads typically draw, good performance and customer service would easily turn in to a decent demand in the North American market.

But what do I know about selling skimmers? It's hard to pay the bills when you're giving things away.

[danskim]

Looks like cool stuff.

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10690400#post10690400 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by luke33
I understand what your saying jon, but imo, its all in the pump. I would agree if its a cone shapped skimmer there 's less friction for sure, but the main ingredient is to have the right scfh per diameter and neck........as well as flow. The small cone shape isn't going to be any better when compared to a 6" diameter skimmer with a better pump imo.

you right it's also depend on the pump , today i use laguna 2400 and have the same foam as it's look on the "supersize" the only problem is that with the skimmer i run it i can pull 30LPM even after mod the skimmer and my water level very low . i want to be able to creat 30" high con shape with 6.5" neck diameter at this way i can mod the pump to 50LPM . now i am working on that with a company.... if i will be able to do so it will be great or i will order a custom one .

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10697411#post10697411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ewan
Thanks for the links, Hahnmeister.
In my opinion, ATB needs some more persuasion to send you a demo unit. With the attention that your threads typically draw, good performance and customer service would easily turn in to a decent demand in the North American market.


Funny you should mention that. I got another email from Anton this morning. Seems Ill have a 'Small' model... white edition, very soon for evaluation.

Ill stick it on a friends system first as a 'benchmark' (a 500g system that I know will make it kick out scum and break in). Then, on a lower DOC system, my 125g. Should be fun.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10698181#post10698181 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mavgi
you right it's also depend on the pump , today i use laguna 2400 and have the same foam as it's look on the "supersize" the only problem is that with the skimmer i run it i can pull 30LPM even after mod the skimmer and my water level very low . i want to be able to creat 30" high con shape with 6.5" neck diameter at this way i can mod the pump to 50LPM . now i am working on that with a company.... if i will be able to do so it will be great or i will order a custom one .

The larger the cone is, it seems the more cost effective it gets too. So my plan was to create a 'super cone' as well. 18" base, 8" neck, 45" tall cone section. A 'black box' base about 6" tall, and the 'bubble ball' concept of mine, fueled with a recirculating Laguna 2400 for about 3400lph of air unless I force feed it... but I shouldnt have to. The 'halo' shaped inlet spraybar up in the cone above the bubble-sphere, and a wetneck. The only problem will be finding a system that could actually produce enough skimmate to use such a monster... but I have some ideas on that. A total height of 65" tall doesnt hurt though.

[woz9683]

Hey Hahn, what do you think about the KZ cone skimmers compared to these ATBs? I noticed they've already got a couple of importers so maybe a little more readily available.

EDIT: Check that, it looks like they're still ordering them direct from Germany. Still curious what you think though.

[hahnmeister]

I take it you havent seen the thread on KZ's recently, have you?
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=10615921#post10615921

Im sure they are decent performers... just not as efficient. My gripe with KZ lies in their patent, as well as overstated marketing claims. Really, its a cone-shaped beckett skimmer... thats all. Now, at that... becketts do perform, and their pairing of the Aquabee 2000/1 on a beckett (-like) injector is a good one... but is it good for the 300g or so rating that they claim? I dont think so. Some that have tried them are also having micro-bubble problems as well.

Dont believe me on the whole beckett thing, check out that thread. Their patent even has a diagram of a regular US beckett in it for comparison. And then there is the price!!! Whoah!

So to me, the comparison is something like this... for KZ vs. ATB. Keep in mind I dont have one yet, so I will have to update this as things go on, but based on their designs:

ATB= asperating skimmer vs. KZ = beckett/venturi style air injection. The ATB has more air for less wattage.

ATB = less expensive, KZ = more expensive for similar models (actually, the ATB is a slightly larger + of course higher air intake for the money as well). The ATB should have less microbubble problems though because it is able to generate more bubbles, but with lower water throughput since its a needlewheel. I do wonder how things will turn out though in this respect since 110v eheims will be about 20% faster than the 220v ones Anton is used to dealing with.

ATB = not quite the same finish & build. The KZ's seem to be one-piece molded cones. The ATB's are 'bent' and have a seam. This is a minor issue. I dont think that an ATB is 'weaker' because of this, but a couple people have mentioned that the 'seam' makes it ugly for them. I dont think its that big of a deal though. Whoopie. Look at a Volcano if you want to see huge seams... and its not that big of a deal with them... so why here? But Ill still mention it. FWIW, I know that its keeping the cost down, so Ill put up with a seam. The neon orange acrylic kills the KZ for some as well... but you know what... its a skimmer... who cares what it looks like?!?! It goes in your sump and collects poop. I could care less if the Acrylic was neon green with Red and Blue stripes (Bubble-Magus, can you hear me?) as long as the design was good. Heck... Id like to challenge a skimmer maker to make the gaudiest, most UV, color clashing skimmer out there, and send it to me... and as long as it works... who cares? Im talking UV green lid, UV-blue acrylic body, Red and Blue pipes, and a UV-Orange bottom and bubble-plate. The durability of the ATB should be just fine though. But, I suppose we will wait and see.

[hahnmeister]

Oh, I forgot something in the 'why a cone may be better than a cylinder part' above. Pump sizing. The volume of a 8" base, 4" neck cylinder is about the same as a 6" pipe. But on a 6" pipe, an eheim needlewheel making 900lph of air would be quite the challenge, even on a recirculating body. Since the cone shape leaves a large sorting area at the bottom (for a large bubble plate as well), you get the sorting area of a 8" diameter body, but the bubbles get condensed into an area that is less than a 6" body. Having a 22" tall, 6" diameter cylinder skimmer running as a 'single pass' skimmer would be kinda hard. ATI used to do it before using the Sicce pumps, and they needed a 10" diameter body. The cone shape though allows for a higher bubble density up in the top, but a large sorting area below... otherwise, running an eheim as a 'single-pass' design on the equal volumed cylinder would be impossible. Why have such a condensed foam head at the top vs. a larger cylinder one? Think Beckett. I think these buggers may be the first needlewheel skimmers that operate with the bubble density of a beckett in the cylinder.

[woz9683]

Im talking UV green lid, UV-blue acrylic body, Red and Blue pipes, and a UV-Orange bottom and bubble-plate.
And bright pink polka dots of course.

And no, I had definitely missed that thread lately and somehow half of the second page of this thread :rolleyes: , so thanks for the link and synopsis.

[bernie lyons]

Well after reading these posts I was starting to get excited about these atb cone skimmers . However nothing has been compared to say an MTC HSA-1000 beckett skimmer and all of these cone skimmer ideas are speculative until we have an "head to head" comparison.This could simply be a "fad" to generate sales because it's different and we have to be carefull not to fall into -
pt barnums "A sucker is born every minute" .Just my opinion .
Would like to hear real comparisons to becketts, downdrafts ,ect.
cheers
bernie lyons

[DeltecRules]

Boy Anton is comming out with some real impressive toys. ATB once exposed to the US is going to be pretty popular, just like Royal Exclusiv (BK), Deltec, ATI, H&S, Fauna Marin, and Tunze.

[hahnmeister]

bernie, dont get me wrong... its not reinventing the wheel here. Its still blowing a column of bubbles into a body of water.

Compare to a H&S even: The A200 1x1260 is a good comparison. The ATB is shorter, yes, but when you look at the ATB, its bubble plate is at the bottom, reducing turbulence, and providing about 15-18" of actual distance between the bottom and the top. This doesnt seem like alot, but look at the H&S, 29" tall, and 8" in diameter. Its pretty turbulent though, and the distance from the pump outlet to the top is only about 20", giving about the same distance as the ATB from the bubble plate to the top of the skimmer. Now, I suppose ATB pricing is still up in the air, but it should compete better than just the regular EU conversion. The H&S is $900-1000.

The other comparison might be with the non-recirc H&S, the 200-1260. This skimmer is just under 24" tall though, no bubble plate, etc... but it is $900.

So the prices are reasonable. Why did I pick H&S? Similar materials and construction methods.

[hahnmeister]

The comparison here is pretty good... pjf, Bean, and a few others in the another thread where we are talking about testing skimmers might be interested in the methods/results at least:

http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=550&sid=b6213853d3247825dbf0f152cef2cddf
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi

i'm currently testing the new Pyramidenpfannenabschäumer prototype and would like to talk about my experiences from time to time.

Prior History:
I'm maintaining a low-nutrient level in my tank (~0,30 mg/L NO3 and ~0,040 mg/L PO4). For keeping the levels down, i use vodka and its very good - but a little bit older protein skimmer equipped with a threadwheel. (its an ATI bubblemaster)

My corals are colored beautyfully since i have the low levels but of course the levels could be even a little bit less. especially the po4 level can only be kept down hardly without using po4 adsorbers ( what causes extra costs and work )

therefore i'm looking for a more efficient skimmer. until now, no skimmer of the well known brands could convince me. either the design wasn't adequate or they were way to expensive.
Antons kegelpfannenabschäumer got my interest because the foam/water column was amazing in comparison to other skimmers.
if the longer contact time can get the last bits of dissolved organics out from my tank is now the topic of my tests.

i will not concentrate to much on color/ammount of the skimmate ( can vary depending on wet/dry skimming ) but on the reached nutrient levels because changes would be visible to me immedeately.
that means that nothing on the system will be changed ( feeding amount will be the same ) and i will only exchange the skimmer. i will also continue using ozone, which i permanently add in a small dose via a t-line ( passive without airpump ). i won't use po4 adsorbers for the time of the tests.

Test
3 days ago i installed the skimmer - which was really easy and turned it on.
to my surprise already after 10 minutes i could see a brown foam crown ( i guess it was the detritius which was stirred up during installation ) - image 1.
the foam itself is a dream - looks like the same small bubbles as with the threadwheel pump.
also the water/foam column is as high as i hoped for. it could reach up the tube of the cup ( depending on the dry/wet setup ) - see image 2 and 3.
image 4 shows the water/foam column of my old skimmer.

after that i set the skimmer up for "half dry". the next day i had 0.5cm dark skimmate ( way darker as with my current skimmer ). then i switched to a pretty wet skimming ( which is better with vodka ) and got in the next 3 days 4.5cm "prey" ( see image 5 ).

for comparison - the skimmate of my old skimmer is also from 3 days ( skimmer cups have the same diameter ) - see image 4. the pyramid skimmer skimms "a little" more


of course the nutrient levels are not telling a lot in a thet short time
Day 1:
PO4 ~ 0,040 mg/L
NO3 ~ 0,3 mg/L

Day 3
PO4 ~ 0,015 mg/L
NO3 ~ 0,25 mg/L
(without PO4-Adsorber)


Further:
i thought about what the differences between kegelabschäumer and pyramid skimmer could be because i think the performance is about the same:

1. maybe easier and cheper in production ( only anton could tell )
2. the skimmer needs a little bit more space in the sup as the kegelpfannenabschäumer due to the positioning of the pump. ( footprint about 37x27cm).

Gruß
Reinhard
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/bild_1_111.jpg
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/bild_2_110.jpg
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/bild_3_141.jpg
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/bild_4_117.jpg
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/bild_5_183.jpg
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My conclusion... better dwell time and less turbulence means more proteins can be collected per bubble, and/or more difficult to obtain ones. This we should know. The threadwheel is a rather turbulent skimmer... lots of air/water being shot to the top in a short time. Its like an classic American muscle-car against a Ferrari... sure, a drag race doesnt say as much for the Ferrari as it could, but get out on the twisty roads and the muscle car looses its grip.

His tank is just over 100gallons (400L) BTW. The 'pyramid' is equal to the 'Small' model in capacity/size, etc... just a different shape.

On day 4, he tested the levels again, and found:
"PO4 ~ 0mg/L (without PO4 adsorbent)
NO3 ~ 0,05mg/ml"

Days later it seems...
"NO3 ~ 0.1 mg/L
PO4 ~ 0 mg/L"
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/020807_115.jpg

Then the final post says that he was able to lower the vodka dosing by 19%, and the values are:
"NO3 ~ 0.1 mg/L
PO4 n.n "

And adds: "* Ozone: Although I dose just as much ozone, now the water is really highly transparent - in former times it had still another easy Gelbstich (wanted to meter however no more ozones). Either the skimer gets the last remainder „of the colored connections “ out, or ozone can work because of the high foam column better."

Wanna know something funny? I translated all the German for the first post, and then noticed that MichiP did already in the thread. Talk about a time sucker! Im kicking my wall right now as I type this.

[bernie lyons]

Thanks Hahnmeister for the comparison , how much is that pyramid ATB skimmer in us dollars ? And what pump does it use ? Also is it finicky as to the water level in your sump ?
Where in the U.S. can you buy these skimmers ?
Thanks - bernie lyons

[victor90]

The pyramid skimmer will not be available for some time, but the cones will be available soon.

[salty child 79]

Sorry guys but I am not as up-to-date as you.

WHO IS Anton?

I keep seeing this name and have no idea what company/country he is working for/in.

[dgill]

Mr. Anton Burian is the owner and he is the "B" in ATB, which is short for "Aquarium Technik Burian".

The company is based in Austria (next to Germany) and could be described as the Austrian equivalent of H&S, offering same build quality but much more innovative (cone shapes, mesh wheels, diffuser plates, etc.). Currently Anton's company is building and selling a full line of skimmers and reactors.

Their web site is: http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/

[dgill]

... and tomorrow Mr. Burian receives a shipment of 110V Eheim pumps, for the first batch of cone-shaped skimmers heading to the USA!

[salty child 79]

Thanks dgill!

Now I remember you saying something about him in that PM.

By the way the tank is coming along great and looks like it will be ready for water next weekend, as this weekend I am going back up near you!

[hahnmeister]

Yay... skimmers on the way. Its always exciting to have new stuff coming in. Today I got my new 'Aquarium Plants' CO2 regulator... I decided to go all out after my last regulator supposedly went kaput.

I also just added 8 clown fairy wrasses to my 125. That should boost the bio-load for a good test. Right now, my modded Aqua Euro is filling itself with dark tea by week's end on a regular basis.

So by the time the skimmer gets here, I will take some readings for phosphates, clarity, and nitrates... maybe ORP if I get my meter in time. Anyways, are there any other 'parameters' or conditions anyone would like to see with the comparison? My AE265 can be modded to behave either exactly like a H&S A200 1260 or the ATI BM200 (actually a slightly better ATI BM200). It is 8" in diameter, 30" tall, with a Sicce PSK 2500 mounted 20" from the top... same as a H&S A200, all I have to do is restrict the air a little (it sucks over 1000lph of air). Currently I am running a 'bubble spreader' on the skimmer though, one type can blow all the bubbles right up into the neck, like the Bubblemaster. The advantage is that since the skimmer is taller, I dont need the inner cylinder... the space below the diffuser does the 'sorting'. I suppose its not a true ATI though, as it is a recirculating design that gets only 250gph from the overflow.

[dgill]

hahnmeister, that skimmer sounds nice... do you have a thread going on that one, hopefully with pics?!

[hahnmeister]

Well, I figured I would just continue it here, but I could start a new one. I figured I would end up responding to my own question: "Anyone in the US have an ATB skimmer?" with "Yep, I got one".

[pjf]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10704038#post10704038 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Compare to a H&S even: The A200 1x1260 is a good comparison. The ATB is shorter, yes, but when you look at the ATB, its bubble plate is at the bottom, reducing turbulence, and providing about 15-18" of actual distance between the bottom and the top. This doesnt seem like alot, but look at the H&S, 29" tall, and 8" in diameter. Its pretty turbulent though, and the distance from the pump outlet to the top is only about 20", giving about the same distance as the ATB from the bubble plate to the top of the skimmer. Now, I suppose ATB pricing is still up in the air, but it should compete better than just the regular EU conversion. The H&S is $900-1000.

The other comparison might be with the non-recirc H&S, the 200-1260. This skimmer is just under 24" tall though, no bubble plate, etc... but it is $900.

So the prices are reasonable. Why did I pick H&S? Similar materials and construction methods.
How does dwell time figure into the comparison? The ATB appears to use co-current flow whereas the H&S A200 uses counter-current flow.

[johns]

wait a minute - 8 clown fairy wrasses!! :eek1:

1 male and 7 females??

I guess no one needed to ask you which types of fairy wrasses you wanted to keep.

[hahnmeister]

Well, Im ditching the watanabei angels... just cant find males for a good price anywhere, and I might just hold out for when bellus are available.

Clown fairies? Yeah... Perhaps my favorite kind that isnt over $100. Im hoping some more scotts show up soon, as Bill kept the cool pair that came through yesterday. I would like a lineatus or rhomboid some day though. In the meantime, no genicanthus angels (got rid of the two I had in QT until I can find a male for sure... or maybe just keep a bunch of females until one changes) means more fairy wrasses! Im thinking Socials, Lubbocki, Pink Margin, Exquisite... something along those lines. But clowns were on the list.. yeah. I had to put a bunch in though to make sure when the Temmicki 'mega-male' goes back in, he cant dominate them too bad if he thinks its still 'his tank'. The wrasse was by himself in there so he assumes the whole thing is his. I yanked him last night and put him in QT (best way to get a wrasse is to find where they sleep... I just pulled the rock he sleeps in and put it in QT). I put the clowns in this morning, and I think I might have a nice large male already. If I had left the Temmincki, they would all be pinned in their corners under rocks, and some might be dead already. I plan to keep him out for a week or so until the clowns look like they have settled in.... and then add him back. So I wanted to be sure there were enough to overwhelm the bugger. FWIW, solar/clown fairies are the cheapest wrasse I planned on keeping, so thats why Im using so many of them for now. I might thin them out later though.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10713862#post10713862 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pjf
How does dwell time figure into the comparison? The ATB appears to use co-current flow whereas the H&S A200 uses counter-current flow.

That is true... there is a difference there. I dont know how much of a factor it will be... the single pass w/ bubble plate for high turnover w/ low turbulence vs. higher turbulence w/ counter current/recirc operation.... although I dont know if I would consider it that 100%. Its not that tall, and considering the turbulence and where the inlet is... it may be a recirc so you get more time in the skimmer, but its barely 'counter current'. The currents in the skimmer are strong enough to tumble the insides to such a degree that the water inside doesnt really follow the counter-current ideal. If it were 4' tall or more, or more than 30" from the pump outlet to the top of the skimmer, I might consider it more of a 'counter current'. Ill give it that the water spends more time in the skimmer though. I am running it at 250gph... under the usual minimum. FWIW, my entire sump only runs at 250gph (skimmer is direct fed from overflow), so the ATB will be recirculating to a certain extent as well in the lower section of the sump... only now it will be filtering water after the fuge rather than before like my current skimmer. So things might be rather equal anyways. It may just come down to the bubble plate and cone shape vs. the cylinder and the recirc/typical needlewheel. I can also test vs. my current skimmer set up like an ATI Bubblemaster 200... but that comparison seems to have been done already.

[pjf]

Given the same contact time, have we figured out if co-current or counter-current flow is better for protein binding?

In a co-current flow, the same protein and bubble remain in close proximity waiting "to wed."

In a counter-current flow, a protein is "propositioned" by many bubbles waiting for "the right suitor."

[JCTewks]

I believe that both have their pro's and con's.

IMO co-current skimmers such as beckets and venturi's are able to process large amounts of water and air and remove lots of easily removed compounds quickly. counter-current process less water and IMO are able to remove more "stubborn" compounds better than co-current.

[hahnmeister]

You can have a counter current process more water like a co-current with a higher throughput. But the assumption is that this makes a difference... when it doesnt. We are lucky if our skimmers strip a small percentage of whats in the water in one pass. Counter current provides the better interface usually.

[upsetter]

Hahn, please tell us if u do start a new thread on your ATB testing-- I'm definitely interested in what u find.

[bernie lyons]

Comprimise is the "operative " word here ! I've played with quite a few high end skimmers and the co-current beckett design (MTC HSA-1000) has on many occasions beat -up some well known pinwheel counter current types eg: deltec AP-851, which is rated basically for the same heavy bioload . So there is more here than meets the eye .
I feel that a good comparison for a ATB skimmer design is to go head to head to a well made HSA type of beckett / downdraft to see if dwell time vs high turnover rate yields better results or that a cone shape skimmer yields better sea water drainage for a better foam shaping ( foam fractionization)
compared to a cylinder skimmer. I am interested in the ATB designs because they look well made and are compact but pricing will be the critical thing for me . Also are the ATB skimmers a meshwheel , pinwheel or modified beckett 3?
bernie lyons

[hahnmeister]

The ATB's vary based on the model, and how new they are. The nano is a threadwheel 1250. The Small is a pinwheel 1260, but I fully intend on hooking up my threadwheel 1262 to it, and seeing how it likes 1800lph. Chances are it will be waaay to much, since the neck, based on the photographic proportions, seems to be 4" in diameter... good for about 900lph, but not much more before it turns into something that will overflow too easily (60-70lph/sq. in. being my suggested ideal). The Medium and XL are Red Dragon run, so 1500 and 2000lph... Anton has not been able to get Red Dragons in fast enough to keep up, and I dont exactly blame Klaus. I know Anton is working on a dual eheim version, I suppose a 'Large' model, as well as some other potential threadwheel candidates. So we will see.

The thing I think is kinda weird, and Victor90 brought to my attention, is the size of the XL... yet its still internal. That thing is just under 18" in diameter, and 30" tall... and I know its for up to 1500gallons, but still... what if you are using a 75 or 125g tank for your sump that is only 18" wide? The Medium is 25.6" tall and 12.6" in diameter, which is okay for most, but a pyramid version to keep it under 12" square might be nice. The Small is 9" in diamter and 22.4" tall... hardly something that needs a pyramid version... but that XL seems like it could use it... then it could be 16-17" square and still fit in some thinner sumps. Either that or an external version. The other 'odd' thing is the neck sizing. The S is right on... 4" for about 900lph I would imagine (prolly only 750lph on 220v). The Medium is a 6" neck and so is the XL.

Seen this though? Seems Anton is making a Medium 'White' version... very sexy. I like the all-white version better than the Small version of the White... very cool.
http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/Bild_Normal_Size_Weis.JPG

[neyugn0w01]

How much are these skimmers?

[hahnmeister]

Priceless at the moment.

It seems KZ is pulling a Sunlight Supply. KZ has threatened to sue ATB if these skimmers are sold in the US. I think its a bluff, because KZ would have to spend alot of money on court fees, and they could lose their patent in the process... which after the research I have done, looks very possible.

The reason: the cone shape body. Now, every skimmer on the market uses a cone shape in the body. The ATB has one starting at the base, and going to the neck. Most other skimmers have one that starts a few inches below the neck, and extends to it. KZ uses one that starts a few inches above the bottom, which is technically different than the ATB design, as ATB is the only one that is 100% cone from bottom to the neck. So my question is: 'What kind of cone is permitted for use with a skimmer if not the KZ design?' I mean, what is KZ going to do, sue every company out there that has a cone shape in their skimmer? Of course not. Lets see... Octopus, AquaEuro, Bubbleking, ATI, Deltec, etc... all use cone shapes of one sort or another to 'gather' foam at the top, middle, etc. So I think a patent is bogus. I could see a design patent... something that gives specific dimensions so exact copies of KZ skimmers could not be made, or copied and sold as KZ's by other parties... but a utility patent doesnt cover that. If I put a 18" tall, 8"bottom, 4" neck cone on top of a 3' tall 8" diameter cylinder... that would be a similar cone to the KZ, but on a 3' tall body... its just a reducer neck like every other skimmer out there.

But it seems like KZ is doing exactly what I was afraid of. They are enforcing their patent in the US (which I still havent found a US patent # on). Right now, its just the cone, but in the future... that could mean that every other beckett company in the US could be shut down for using an injector like the KZ's. Maybe they will just go after anyone else who uses cone shapes... but still... that could include anything when you think about it... even Bubblekings... esp the new Supermarine's.

[bernie lyons]

Perhaps people should think twice about buying az skimmers , sending a message to these guys that we don't appreciate them arbitrarily going for a patent to prevent other companies from using beckett's and cone shapes on their skimmers . Just my opinion.
bernie lyons

[hahnmeister]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/001conescompared.jpg

[hahnmeister]

As you can see, KZ skimmers arent true cones any more than any other skimmer that uses a cone shaped reducer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/WOPR/kegelabsch_umer_kl.jpg
If anything, the ATB is the first true cone. Besides that, if it comes right down to it, all the ATB's could be switched to the pyramid style, and then there is no silly argument over shape. What gets me is how could KZ even patent that still. Its a design patent if anything, to protect the 'art'... or that specific design. To patent a cone shape under a utility patent would either require them to be the first to come up with using a cone as a reducer neck, or, to use it in such a way that a new performance claim could be made through testing. As of yet, there is no cliam... its just a design. All the 'plankton friendly' claims are bogus, and related to the 'beckett head' injector if anything else.

[hahnmeister]

Oh, I see KZ yanked the photo I posted from their photobucket account in my last post. I suppose Ill have to post the backup here...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/Pohl_XL.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/kegelabsch_umer_kl.jpg

That first pic is new... shows the older beckett head on the prototype.

Well, after some research... it appears the ATB's are on the way. The USPTO hasnt seen a US patent application for the KZ skimmer, so their 'claim' could actually land them in hot water in the end, rather than warding off the ATB skimmers in the US. If there is no application, its too late now, since the product has been released already, and so has the ATB. Its considered 'public knowlege' then, and would no longer be patentable.

KZ has been asked to produce a patent application number, a rather simple thing to do as its just a number you get when you file for the initial patent... but nothing except replies that give other facts that dont even apply, like the dates of the German patent, and if anything... the details provided suggest the KZ patent doesnt even exist. FWIW, the USPTO has to post international applications on their site, so anything from Taiwan or Germany would be viewable on their site by now. Even at that, if its just a patent applied for, it cant be enforced until it is passed, and it doesnt even mean it will pass. I am pretty sure it wont get passed anyways as a patent... it will be disputed.

So it looks like ATB is in the clear and skimmers are on the way! And KZ might be experiencing legal troubles for their bogus attempt to keep ATB out of the US. As it is... if the patent is just applied for... it cant be enforced.

[d4a2n0k]

I know they are not "released" yet but does anybody know where one would go looking for one of these? Someone mentioned in an earlier post that ATB was acquiring 110v Eheims. Anymore info on that?

My PM box is open!

[woz9683]

Formula for Success:

1. Overprice your product
2. Claim it is original
3. Claim others are copying your "original" design and it's hurting your business
4. Sue for all you're worth (if, of course, you can find your imaginary patent)

What's the ETA on your skimmer Hahn? I'm waiting to hear a good solid review before I decide what to upgrade to. Oh yeah, and I have to make some money. You see, it's always those little things people seem to forget about.

[upsetter]

I'm in the same boat as woz. Keep up the great work Hahn!

[hahnmeister]

The website is being constructed. As soon as it goes live, I will let you know. Otherwise, if you are interested, post here, and the importer can PM/email you with details.
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10336
Here, Pohl has responded.... well... sort of. He is questioning me now as to if I just want to start trouble or what, and he has tried to ask me 'what kind of reefer I am', with suggestions that I dont know anything. Well... I know one thing... if I knew nothing but one thing and I were him, I would at least know the patent application number. Instead he says its a 'world patent' of some sort. Now... I tried to find the world patent office... but I couldnt find a number... so who knows. But really... if you are going to contact people and threaten them with legal action, you should have your facts at hand. Otherwise, you are just wasting everyone's time. And if it is a 'world' patent, then why would it say 'patent pending?'. These dates from 2005 and such keep getting thrown around, but nothing more. I could be wrong, no doubt, but tell me that if you werent in the same situation, you wouldnt think someone was trying to bluff, stall, and give you some song & dance.

His response in that zeo thread does leave possibility for Klaus's skimmer to come under fire as well though. If anything, the supermarine is closer in design to the KZ than anything.

'Cone skimmers'.... like nobody ever used a cone before.

All Im saying is that if the patent is applied for, it needs to be published on the uspto website, and over all the years of searching aquarium patents on that site, I have never seen it. Once it is published for 'review' (even with Accelerated Examination to get the patent in under a year this is needed, esp for international applications) then every other company, or even private citizen can send in the 'protest' information. Just because a patent is passed in one country doesnt mean it will in another after all.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/1900.htm

[d4a2n0k]

Thanks Hahn, the distributor did contact me by PM.

[Ewan]

Hahnmeister, you know nothing. :D

Nice posts. I was playing paintball heavily with my office team when the entire smartparts ordeal went down. I was a diehard SP player before that started. I ended up going with Indian Creek because I couldn't take the harassment any longer!

[glassbox-design]

i would like to be contacted as well with pricing and ETA of the skimmers...

[upsetter]

Duh to myself. U mean post here (not the Zeo site). I would also like to be contacted re pricing & eta of the skimmers.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10752552#post10752552 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ewan
Hahnmeister, you know nothing. :D

Nice posts. I was playing paintball heavily with my office team when the entire smartparts ordeal went down. I was a diehard SP player before that started. I ended up going with Indian Creek because I couldn't take the harassment any longer!

Figured some other p-ballers might remember that. SP lost so much market cred because of that... I mean... really, did they think that some little company was really going to compete enough to take a large chunk from their profits... with all the other competition out there?

KZ might wake up and realize that the ATB is a complimenting product, not competition in the strictest sense. Since ATI's bubblemaster, I bet you Bubbleking sales have picked up as well... and not just because of the distributor change... its exposure to the technology.

I remember back in the day when WDP was the only PB marker you could buy that was electronic, and then the nasty original shocker (breadbox with a barrel). Everyone's experience said 'dont bother, it will get wet and break', and the shockers did. So electronics couldnt gain a good market share. Then came the Bob Long Defiants, Timmi's... and then came the matrix and excalibur... and some people might not have bought an angel, still one of the most expensive out there... but they tried a timmi or trix and liked it. Then autocockers went electro, and more markers came out. The multiple brands of electronic paintball markers is what exposed people enough to the technology enough for the old perceptions to wash away... something that no mfg could figure out how to do in the 90's. Now, almost every paintball marker is electronic, and when SP introduced the new shocker and nerve years ago... people were receptive to the technology... no thanks to anything they had done. If it wasnt for AKALMP/excalibur, less people would have thought about electros... and so how does SP thank them? They try to sue them. Thank goodness WDP countersued on AKALMP's behalf almost... SP screwed one smaller company, and so WDP screwed them. WDP knew it... all the competition in electronic markers only boosted interest in their product... the pinnacle of electronic markers to many since day 1. But the real screwing went on through public opinion... people boycotted SP, and many still will never buy their products.

What this whole KZ thing says to me is that they dont think their product is #1. Look at Klaus and Royal Exclusiv... Klaus could have patented the bubble plate... but didnt. For another company to build a bubble plate skimmer doesnt bother him... because he knows he has the best out there. If KZ thinks their product is #1, then they should welcome competition, and through user experience, people will prove the KZ product is #1. Their response says otherwise... trying to eliminate competition through legal means.

Lets face it, this market is like airlines... an oligopoly. If the top end skimmer makers stick together and back each other up, they will see all their profits rise. If they feud, try to keep others from entering the market, etc... they only hurt themselves. Lets say ATI's bubblemaster, for example, turns out to be a bunk skimmer design... people could go away thinking all skimmer designs with bubble plates are flawed. These products are not a necessity after all... its just as easy to go without them all together as to pick one among them.

[Lumamae]

What a nice looking skimmer. Where to get more specs on capacity and pricing? Will they be available in USA or is the threat of patent infringement stopping them from entering?

[hahnmeister]

I am 99% positive that the KZ claim will not stop them, but I am not a lawyer. All signs point to 'ok' though. Unless Pohl can pull a rabbit from his hat, the KZ patent doesnt look like it even exists. USPTO doesnt recognize it, and the KZ claims dont look valid, other than they might be sending a patent application in soon to avoid getting a fine by the USPTO for claiming 'patent pending'. There is not really anything that can be done legally if a patent is still pending until it is passed.

Pohl claims it is a 'world patent'. So I went to the WIPO site:
http://www.wipo.int/ipdl/en/

You can search, and find nothing though. All the WIPO consists of is an international database, but the patents still have to pass each country's own patent laws. There are patents that exist in a handful of countries, but are denied in others based on 'who did it first' in that country. So 'world patent' doesnt mean much.

[Lumamae]

I saw a similar design like this in Taiwan a few years ago. Did everyone either buyout the patent from Taiwan manufacturers, or just pirate the design? I don't believe that Taiwan would ever spend money on a world patent, maybe not even for their own country.

[hahnmeister]

The patent is owned by a TW guy... Liu, Chun-Chieh. The skimmers are OEM from Taiwan, and then sold for a huge markup as KZ's. So it would appear that the design was sold to KZ.

[Lumamae]

If I remember correctly, they were only a couple of hundred dollars when sold in Taiwan, but lousy pumps. KZ made a smart move, pickup the design and put a good German pump on it and now it's 5x more expensive.

When I saw it a few years ago, I thought they were the strangest looking thing. Now, I think they're cool. Sure is easy getting wrapped up in the hype.

[hahnmeister]

Oh yeah... dont get me wrong... Im sure the KZ is a strong performer... the Aquabee 2000/1 is a good pressure pump. The thing is, the ATB has a bubble plate, an even better eheim pump, and is being used as a needlewheel. So while the KZ Small eeks along at about 400lph of air intake (estimated based on what I know of becketts and the Aquabee 2000/1), the ATB Small can make alot more air... 900lph should be standard, and when I put a threadwheel on, I would say 1500lph easily (but that might be too much for the neck). All that air means less water flow as well... and the major problem some are reporting with the KZ is microbubbles. Well, thats caused not by the air intake, but the water intake of the skimmer... and due to 'venturi' methods with the KZ, the air/water ratio isnt as favorable. And then, the ATB's output is through a bubble plate at the bottom of the skimmer, so turbulence is minimal, and the air/water interface area is minimal so it leaves a huge area for a foam head.

I figured out something else about the 'cone' design. Cones are a natural method of turbulence reduction in comparison to cylinders. As you get higher in a regular cyllinder shaped skimmer, you can still have micro-currents spinning around because the area is still so large up until the neck reduction. With a cone, the increased bubble density means less water, which means less potential for micro-currents. Just something to consider.

Regards,
Jon

[GSMguy]

ATB skimmers sound great 900lph thru the cone :)


In all Seriousness is there any chance you or ATB has missed the patent application ?

For a Company to Claim patent pending when they have not even submitted an application.
that is not good for them, then to actually threaten action against another company based on it would be way worse.

Hahn your arguments are backed with clear concise premises it is refreshing.

[hahnmeister]

It is possible that KZ has slipped something past the radar in some way... who knows how. But they have yet to come up with a patent number, and it seems like they are fumbling in that respect... which to me says they were trying to pull a fast one. They keep spitting out dates (dates which correspond to the German patent), claims about what they know, that the patent is a 'world patent', and then suggest the patent is pending on all the sites where it is listed for sale. The patent was never published on the USPTO site, which is possible if it was a private patent, but all international patents MUST be published for public review. Something tells me KZ got the German patent, and either they decided to recently file for the US one, but havent actually sent anything in to apply... or, the patent owner in Taiwan told them he would patent it in the US, but never did (he sold them the design, he got his money, so why bother paying another $8000 or whatever for another patent, right? He can just pull the old 'yeah, yeah... I apply months ago... my English not so good though... oh... there is a problem here? Oh, okay... call back later!' and sit on the money. There are alot of Asian companies like that that will take your money, and then try to screw you out of it. Everything so far, within sound reason, points to KZ trying to bluff, and since the only thing that is public knowlege at this point is the 'patent pending' claim on the sites, and patents that are pending can not be enforced... little to worry about at this point. And when and if the patent comes up with the USPTO, then Anton and ATB, heck... I will even send in a protest form and information.

I was reviewing the German patent last night actually. Im shocked it was approved. It could easily get knocked down in the US. There are no specific proportions given for the cone, and most of the patent is written like a design patent, not a utility. The 'cone shape' design of the KZ is not 100% cone... it is a cylinder at the bottom. IMO, this is like a halfway point between a full cone and every other skimmer on the market which uses a cone.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/ATBconecomp.jpg
If they can move the 'red line' down like an ATB and still have it covered under the KZ patent, then they could move it up as well, and go after skimmers with proportions like the Volcano and ASM.
So since there is no detail in the patent like this, I think it would be pretty easy to defeat. No angles or proportions given, no performance claims for their specific type of cone. So as far as patenting goes... either magic voodoo goes these days, or they would have been better off just making a design patent.

Then again... Im not a lawyer. Im just using what Ive been given to work with.

[GSMguy]

good observations doesnt matter which direction on the skimmer the red line moves... My MCE 300 uses a reverse cone... deltec could be in trouble as well... then again so many cones in skimmers out there that there is no way to tell how fast this will be thrown out of US court, but i bet it would be really fast.

[johns]

If they can move the 'red line' down like an ATB and still have it covered under the KZ patent, then they could move it up as well, and go after skimmers with proportions like the Volcano and ASM.


Dont want to argue too much one way or the other here, as I'm no real expert either. But just want to point that when it comes to patentability, it has a lot to do with what is cosidered 'obvious' to someone else looking at the patent.

For instance, with your figure 1 you might consider that you are looking at something mostly like a cone. And if you start the base of the cone down all the way at the bottom like figure 2, it still looks mostly like a cone. Now if there is some benefit to having figure 2 that wasn't obvious from the patent for figure 1 (if there even is one), then maybe design 2 could have it own patent as well.

On the other hand, you might consider that figure 3 doesn't really look like a 'cone' necessarily. It's mostly a cyclinder that tapers at the top. And again, you have to consider if is 'obvious' for someone looking at design 1 & 2 to come up with design 3.

Dont know if that makes sense.

[Creetin]

I would also like to be contacted with prices and details on the ATB skimmers.
Looks interesting.

[GSMguy]

contact me as well Please, interested in the small..

[Lumamae]

Hey guys, be careful. Don't want this to become a sales forum. :lmao:

[hahnmeister]

Well, thats why I say post here if you are interested, that way you can be contacted via PM. The importer doesnt wish to cross that line and get in trouble with RC by making a commercial post by listing prices and such. Things are new, and he knows it might just be a good idea to become a RC sponsor, but things are just starting out. Until the website is up and running though, the best thing to do is simply say if you are interested, and you can be contacted one-on-one. That way, things are kept well within the User Agreement policy for RC. If any mods have commentary on this, please chime in.

[hansmatt]

please pm me with info, I don't want to upset the RC mods :)

[Jim_S]

Please also PM me with as much info as you can :)

ATB would make a great RC sponsor though..... :D

[Lumamae]

This thread is probably rubbing the feathers on Thomas Pohl big time. I just went over to Zeo to see the thread there and he's pretty irritated and irate.

[xinumaster]

please pm me too.

[Jim_S]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10759305#post10759305 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lumamae
This thread is probably rubbing the feathers on Thomas Pohl big time. I just went over to Zeo to see the thread there and he's pretty irritated and irate.

Thats great IMO. Maybe he'll come with a better product next time :lol:

The KZ's just don't look anywhere near as cool as the ATB's......

[disbjohn]

can you please PM me as well for more info? Thanks.

[uhuru]

please PM me as well, thanks!

[Lumamae]

I received contact from potential new importer, but no details whatsoever. :confused:

[hahnmeister]

Well, Im not seeking to aggrivate Mr. Pohl on a personal level. I actually have alot of respect for KZ's other products. I know that puts me in a different group than many who believe all those supplimental bacteria are nothing but a hoax, and zeovit as well... but Ill just put it this way: It seems many US reefers dont even look into the sciences of bacteria and trace elements that can alter the reef environment. Chemical warfare, biological diversity, saltwater composition... Im not saying we are totally ignorant or anything... but many EU-reefers are very interested in these 'cultured' bacteria. Sure... I bet some of the suppliments are nothing but repackaged 'something else simple'... but hey... they took the time to research and develop it, perfecting its use, and that is what matters.

Lumamae, do you have a specific thread or anything? I havent seen Mr. Pohl as being totally irate or anything. But hey, I can understand. I think someone on the KZ 'team' dropped the ball, and now they could have spent alot of money on a potential loss.

I dont have a problem with Mr. Pohl, at least not anything major. I find it aggrivating when someone tries to enforce their will on you using less than straight-forward tactics, and then cant provide any proof of their claim. When I had a 'patent pending', I had a card in my top desk-drawer with the patent number info right on it! I could have told someone the number in a minute! And claiming I need time to 'translate'?!?! Translate what? The initial application is through Germany, and Anton is Austrian (speaks German). I suppose you can use a patent that is pending to enforce it though. I got off the phone with an international German/UK lawyer friend of mine (the one who's place I stayed at in Scotland over New Years), and she did say that a pending patent can be used to stop a patent infringement, but its very hard to do until its approved, and being that one party is in Germany, and the other in Austria, fighting over a US patent claim... it would be a total waste of time for both parties because they would have to attend court in the US. But something tells me that the KZ strategy is to have ATB wait just a little bit longer until the patent application goes through (that they forgot to do promptly in the first place), so then they can at least come up with a number and claim to enforce it. Its a possibility, and would make sense of all the stalling. But then ATB, Klaus, etc... every other mfg in the US could jump on it and protest it... and there is no promise anyways that it will go through. Sure, the German patent helps accelerate things, but a worldwide patent is just a patent is still subject to, and needs the approval of, every country that it gets applied for in. There are many worldwide patents that are approved in US, Taiwan, Japan, but fail in say... India and Germany. The EU cant even settle on a central patent system, so the WIPO version ends up even more of a joke. Things just arent adding up, thats all. And when I try to ask Mr. Pohl the tough and honest questions, I get 'reef voodoo' responses, misdirection, etc. Maybe its his job to do this, trying to stall, as maybe he has been advised to do so... but then the response he is getting back isnt unexpected. I asked what makes it different than a beckett, and what makes the KZ cone so special it can be patented... and I get nothing. I have read over the German patent, and there isnt a whole lot in there. No hard science, no substantial claims as to an actual 'improvement that is an advancement in the product over a regular skimmer', just a US-style beckett... thats all. Anyways... me getting banned at zeovit prolly fanned the flame in some people's eyes... but not really. The big questions are still out there without a response, and that doesnt look good. Thats the core of the problem. Luckily, my ATB is protected no matter what as 'work product', as it is for review purposes, and possible R&D for the feedback I give Anton. So its not like I am acting out of personal benefit either.

Ill tell you one thing about ATB. My impression about Anton is that he is a sincere hobbyist who has gotten into the commercial end and he is pretty down-to-earth about it. He isnt afraid to ask if he really doesnt know, or has a question. He hasnt tried to 'put on airs', or make unsubstantiated claims or have a crazy marketing strategy. The results speak for themselves, and at that, there is no questioning that it is a sound design. If there is an improvement, or suggestion, he is all ears. He knows what he knows... and thats all.

I see one potential problem with the ATB, but I dont have it in my hands yet, so we will see... but there is no flange, and there is no way to open up the bubble plate for cleaning. This isnt exactly different than ATI's bubblemaster, so I dont think its a pressing concern, but hey, it honestly could be a concern... who knows. Klaus's mini BK like can be completely broken apart into its individual components though... bubble plate can be removed and cleaned... you can easily break it down and clean every little piece. I gotta admire that.

The Super Size is a monster... if any of the cone skimmers should be made into a pyramid, its that one. The diameter of the cylinder might be too much for anyone trying to fit it into a 18" wide tank/sump... 75g, 125g, etc. A pyramid would have a square base that could potentially shave off some... making the skimmer a 16x16 or 17x17" square base, so you could put it into a smaller sump.

[ksed]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10757731#post10757731 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Oh yeah... dont get me wrong... Im sure the KZ is a strong performer... the Aquabee 2000/1 is a good pressure pump. The thing is, the ATB has a bubble plate, an even better eheim pump, and is being used as a needlewheel. So while the KZ Small eeks along at about 400lph of air intake (estimated based on what I know of becketts and the Aquabee 2000/1), the ATB Small can make alot more air... 900lph should be standard, and when I put a threadwheel on, I would say 1500lph easily (but that might be too much for the neck). All that air means less water flow as well... and the major problem some are reporting with the KZ is microbubbles. Well, thats caused not by the air intake, but the water intake of the skimmer... and due to 'venturi' methods with the KZ, the air/water ratio isnt as favorable. And then, the ATB's output is through a bubble plate at the bottom of the skimmer, so turbulence is minimal, and the air/water interface area is minimal so it leaves a huge area for a foam head.

I figured out something else about the 'cone' design. Cones are a natural method of turbulence reduction in comparison to cylinders. As you get higher in a regular cyllinder shaped skimmer, you can still have micro-currents spinning around because the area is still so large up until the neck reduction. With a cone, the increased bubble density means less water, which means less potential for micro-currents. Just something to consider.

Regards,
Jon

Looking forward to seeing reviews on ATB skimmers, as well as the new Supermarines. But, I understand that more air means less water flow, but isn't it better to have more water flow than air like the Beckett?

[Jim_S]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10761976#post10761976 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ksed
Looking forward to seeing reviews on ATB skimmers, as well as the new Supermarines. But, I understand that more air means less water flow, but isn't it better to have more water flow than air like the Beckett?

IIRC, Klaus Jansen once posted that they aim for a 1:1 air water ratio at RE. Other manufactures may have different numbers though.

[hahnmeister]

ksed, like everything in this hobby... there are happy mediums. Klaus did mention an ideal ratio at one time of 1:1, but I have made the case in the past many times that this ratio depends alot on the specific design of the skimmer. There are ways to increase the water throughput of a skimmer and still minimize the effects, and some designs can in fact demand more water flow to work properly. Overall, Im not going to say you are wrong, as there are exceptions, but usually, more air is preferred to more water, and more water just means more water turbulence, which is pretty much what most skimmers could use less of. Recirculating skimmers only get fed 1.5-2x the tank volume per hour, which is alot less than any single-pass skimmer that uses the same pump to mix air as well as feed the skimmer, so we have plenty of water throughput to give up here.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10760875#post10760875 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister


I see one potential problem with the ATB, but I dont have it in my hands yet, so we will see... but there is no flange, and there is no way to open up the bubble plate for cleaning. This isnt exactly different than ATI's bubblemaster, so I dont think its a pressing concern, but hey, it honestly could be a concern... who knows. Klaus's mini BK like can be completely broken apart into its individual components though... bubble plate can be removed and cleaned... you can easily break it down and clean every little piece. I gotta admire that.


You guys are gonna chuckle. First, I must say, I did not know anything about what I am about to post, but it appears Anton's timing is just that perfect...

The Nano bottom:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/dscn5222_155.jpg
The Nano diffuser plate:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/dscn5223_655.jpg
Its 'bits':
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/dscn5226_704.jpg
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/dscn5228_102.jpg

The Small 'White' bottom:
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/dscn5232_187.jpg
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/dscn5229_122.jpg
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/dscn5234_196.jpg
http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/phpBB2/files/dscn5235_113.jpg

You can break the skimmers apart now for cleaning... HOW SICK IS THAT? Okay, maybe not a big deal for some... but the timing is pretty cool. I hope the one I am getting can be broken apart like that. Thats a great feature... pretty much seperating it from the Octos, ATI's and such, and putting it up there with the BK's.

[Lumamae]

Wow, now that's got to be the most impressive take apart I've ever seen. Just want to know what pricing is and specs, so can compare to other skimmers I'm considering. :confused: Is a USA compatible pump coming with the skimmers or do we need to find that ourselves? I didn't get any info on my PM for the importer.

[woz9683]

That's pretty sweet. I like the little pin and reference dots so you can put it back together correctly. Makes it just about idiot proof.

[hansmatt]

I don't believe their website is functional yet, but based on their info, you could google the name of the skimmer and add a dotcom and you'd get the site when it is up

[uhuru]

hahn, do you think a nano would be suitable for my 70g sps tank? It's BB, with approx 110g total volume. I expressed to the distributor my interest in the small size but I may change to the nano size if you think it would be a better fit. Both of those skimmers look sweet!

[GuySmilie]

So now how does that base plate seal to the cylinder/cone?
Is there an o-ring involved?
If so, do the screws penetrate the o-ring?

[disbjohn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10766200#post10766200 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GuySmilie
So now how does that base plate seal to the cylinder/cone?
Is there an o-ring involved?
If so, do the screws penetrate the o-ring?

it looks like the base just sits in the groove of the base plate. bubbles escaping shoudn't be an issue, but water can leak out. Since it is an in sump skimmer this shouldn't matter as well.

[GuySmilie]

I see, now that I look a little closer.
I wasn't aware that it was an internal only skimmer.

[Lumamae]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10766004#post10766004 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uhuru
hahn, do you think a nano would be suitable for my 70g sps tank? It's BB, with approx 110g total volume. I expressed to the distributor my interest in the small size but I may change to the nano size if you think it would be a better fit. Both of those skimmers look sweet! SMALL is definitely too big for your setup. NANO is a better match. I just received this info from the importer:

NANO includes Eheim 1250 with meshwheel
SMALL includes Eheim 1260 with meshwheel

A Eheim 1260 skimmer on a 70g is severely overkill, I would think. I might want to consider the NANO on my 90g mixed reef.

[victor90]

Sorry the small is eheim 1260 needlewheel

[skimmy]

wow! looks awesome!!

please contact me with info reguarding these skimmers in the USA, would love to sell these in the shop i work in:)

[bsk997]

These new conical shaped skimmers look very interesting.
Where are these ATB's coming to the us?

[Lumamae]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10767626#post10767626 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by victor90
Sorry the small is eheim 1260 needlewheel Oops, you're right. I looked at my PM again and the SMALL includes Eheim 1260 Needlewheel. Sorry.

[Lumamae]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10767819#post10767819 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bsk997
These new conical shaped skimmers look very interesting.
Where are these ATB's coming to the us? From the jest of this thread and contact from the exclusive importer, they are coming from Austria to Bay Area, CA. The main holdup seems to be KZ threatening to sue ATB for patent infringement.

[bernie lyons]

Ksed , 400lph of air intake (estimated based on what I know of becketts -Actually a typical beckett pulls 1000 litres of air an hour on MTC and MRC designs .kz uses a modified beckett that allows them to put it below water level thus the severe reduction in air draw . Still I would like to read about how the ATB skimmers compare to an well designed beckett such as a MTC HSA-1000 skimmer .
bernie lyons

[hahnmeister]

For a 70g, the nano should be fine. These are aiming to be 'higher end' skimmers though, as you can see. Competing with H&S, Deltec, BK, etc... not Octos and ASM's... or even ATI's (not knocking ATI here, just saying they are more 'musclecar bang for the buck'). Best bang for the buck will most likely be the Small though, from the pricing I have seen. You know how Deltecs are: ... not exactly 'entry level' friendly. Their skimmers start out at $500-650... for something DAS makes for $260. As you get larger though, the Deltecs make more sense... since when you get into the 300g+ category, you arent operating in the same 'budget constraint class' as in the 100g and under group. So you dont see alot of people out there (in the US at least) with small Deltecs. I would venture to say you see more with larger Deltecs if anything. $800 for a skimmer on a 75g is a bit much, but $2000 for a skimmer on the 500g is a drop in the bucket... all things considered. I think that the larger models will be the most competitive though... oddly enough, with the 'Small' being the hottest model of them all... it covers that 'sweet spot' from 100g-300g tanks. Its in that whole segment with the H&S A200-1260, BK mini180/200, and the ATI Bubblemaster 200... maybe even 250. Considering the 'nano' shares %80 of the skimmer material as the 'Small', its really no shocker that its price will be about 80% of the 'Small'. The nano runs on the smaller eheim 1250, and Ill admit, Im not sure on the air rating for that one yet. The 'nano' designation is a bit misleading, as I would still put this thing up against say... a DAS EX-1 or Deltec APF600 type skimmer... being rated for just over 200g tanks... although Im thinking more like up to 100g.

[ksed]

Hello Hahnmeister

Have you heard of any reviews on Elos skimmers. I went on their web site, they apparently have some form of top down venturi driven skimmers. On their page they list pros and cons of venturi and pin wheel skimmers, they go on saying that pin wheels have low water circulation. I tend to favour pin wheel or thread wheels eg ATB, Bubble King etc. but When I see companies hopping back to the venturi I'm a bit concerned about purchasing a pin wheel.
Or is this top down venturi a sales pitch.
Thanks
Kevin

[bogg]

Mine works good!, you do have to clean the ventui every so often but I am really impressed with how well it works for how small it is.http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/bogg2/th_004-2.jpg (http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/bogg2/?action=view&current=004-2.flv)

[hahnmeister]

Its a sales pitch pretty much. But look at it this way: You run a skimmer 24/7, and lets say you have a 125g tank (160 gallon system total) like I do, and running that skimmer gives me about a liter a day at most of skimmate. And of that skimmate, if you condensed it, and took out all the extra stuff that comes out with the proteins, you are talking about skimming out what... less than 1% per day by volume of waste? That alone should tell you that a high turnover means nothing with regards to what you are removing. Escobal suggested only about 1-2x turnover per day in his book! So unless you have a tank which has an output that can really provide a skimmer that much waste (in which case, you need a larger skimmer), higher water throughputs are a joke IMO.

But please, lets not turn this into a needlewheel vs. beckett debate or something. That subject has been covered by many other threads on the forums here... some others going on right now. This should be kept on the ATB skimmers, as going back to needlewheel vs. becketts is taking it back too far, and ATB's are not even close to a representation of all needlewheels.

If you want opinions and reviews on ELOS skimmers, you should do what I did... and start an "who has an ELOS skimmer?" thread. You will get far better results with that then posting within a thread for another skimmer brand.

[Roland Jacques]

I'd like to get some pricing, availablity... info on these also.

I really like to try one out. Looks like a great design.

[boris MAC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10774813#post10774813 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ksed
Hello Hahnmeister

Have you heard of any reviews on Elos skimmers. I went on their web site, they apparently have some form of top down venturi driven skimmers. On their page they list pros and cons of venturi and pin wheel skimmers, they go on saying that pin wheels have low water circulation. I tend to favour pin wheel or thread wheels eg ATB, Bubble King etc. but When I see companies hopping back to the venturi I'm a bit concerned about purchasing a pin wheel.
Or is this top down venturi a sales pitch.
Thanks
Kevin

ksed please check this, it will clear some abouth ELOS skimmers:
http://www.schuran.com/seawater/imitation_e.html

[ksed]

Thanks Hahnmeister

Very interesting Boris Mac

Thanks for making my decision clear.

[bogg]

I dont take the imitation into consideration when I look at the performance of my ns1000s superb operation.

[bernie lyons]

hahnmeister , I also have read escobals book but it is a little behind the times now. When the book was printed , becketts wern't out yet . From anecdotal experiments , I've found that becketts designs "high" turnover rates (5 x per hour ) have definite positive attributes to a reef system . Firstly the oxygenation is much better than a skimmer that turns over every 1x or 2x per hour and in that it allows for a better processing of the nitrogen cycle . Also I have found that the becketts in a nonrecirculating set up remove much more sediment and algea spores which leads to less hair algea in the tank . I am not trying to have an argument comparing becketts vs pinwheels but simply advocating the advantages of high turnover rates .
bernie lyons

[Paulairduck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10759740#post10759740 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jimdogg187
Thats great IMO. Maybe he'll come with a better product next time :lol:

The KZ's just don't look anywhere near as cool as the ATB's......

If the ATB works this good, sign me up


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/108559Aquafrags1_041.jpg

[meow?]

Otherwise, if you are interested, post here, and the importer can PM/email you with details.

I"d like pricing and a ETA.

[woz9683]

Hahn, what's the word on your skimmer? My count is 3 weeks since you said it was on the way.

[victor90]

I'm sorry but we had some delays. We estimate the small and nano skimmers will be here in 2 to 3 weeks.Your patience is much appreciated
Thank you

[woz9683]

No problem, just glad to hear they're still coming. Is the importer website up yet? I'd like to check it out if it is. Or I'll take a PM with info.

[GSMguy]

PM me with info on small and nano?

[gcarroll]

PM me too! I am interested.

[mr294]

In for a PM as well with small and nano information

[frank2926]

Very interested. pm please on info.

what size recommended for a 125 with a very high load?

[jwccwj]

hannimeister did you get yours yet???

[rleechb]

PM me with pricing info as well! Thx

[CruzinKim]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10846973#post10846973 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by victor90
I'm sorry but we had some delays. We estimate the small and nano skimmers will be here in 2 to 3 weeks.Your patience is much appreciated
Thank you Where has this thread been hiding? I guess I need to upgrade my membership to find these. You responded as if you maybe the master dealer. Is shipment still due to arrive next week? Pricing and specs?

[Julio]

interesting to see taht all the new skimmers coming out on the market all have a difussion plate! The Reeflo and this skimmer all have features similar to the BK

[hahnmeister]

Well, bubble plates allow for the turbulence to be sorted out in a much shorter space... and shorter skimmers are rather important in the EU... where space is often a concern. But even for us yanks, its still a good idea because even with just a needlewheel and a taller skimmer body, we still get alot of microcurrents in the skimmer bodies.

[Maximus]

Please pm me the price as well. Thanks.

[Fiziksgeek]

I would like pricing and availability information on the nano and small please.

[gcarroll]

hahnmeister,
Did you get the skimmer yet?

[hahnmeister]

Nah, its on its way. It was sent out the monday before last. I believe Anton, as its in his best interests as well as mine to get me the skimmer no doubt... but customs and such might be a hold up. As soon as I get it, I will post here.

[Rwinfrey]

I would also like pricing:D

[dphins]

Please pm me the price as well. Thanks.

[africangrey]

Please PM me for the price and availability, Thanks.

[Warmart]

Please PM me pricing for a skimmer for my 150 + 40 Sump. I only have 26.5" vertical clearance, so keep that in mind in your recommendations.

Thanks :)

[woz9683]

Anybody else getting PMs, cause I haven't?

[dphins]

I have.

[frank2926]

I got a pm , but it said they did not have pricing yet????

[wizsmaster]

i sent a PM a few days ago, and never got a reply.

[Lumamae]

I have a feeling that it's going to be a long haul before these come into the country.

[hahnmeister]

First batch of 'test' models made it here a couple days ago. For some reason, mine hasnt arrived yet, but half the test models didnt arrive either... so it appears it shouldnt be long. I say 'test' because these are coming with a sligltly different pump (eheim 1262s here are 20% faster). Once a few 'test' situations are taken care of, then the flood gates should open. I know the importer asked for so many skimmers on a monthly basis that Anton has his work cut out for him.

Also, Klaus wont provide Red Dragons in 110v to ATB... no doubt one part competition, and one part Klaus being so freakin' busy (new factory move, new products, new US importer). So I have been working with Anton/ATB on the specs on how to make his own Laguna needlewheel/threadwheel pumps. So far, so good, but this is going to delay the Medium and XL models anyways. Also, the higher air intake of the US pumps might also warrant resizing the skimmers slightly for the US. Rather than 'retard' the pumps like Deltec and H&S do (clipping pins on the wheels or restricting the intake more... both options which kill the pump efficiency, raise heat, noise, etc), ATB might take advantage of the 60hz pumps and instead make the bodies slightly larger... like 20% larger, for US models. This sounds like alot, but its not... the Small's 7" bubble plate would become 8". Other companies who use cylinders on the main body cant do this as easily w/o a complete redesign and cost increase, but for ATB, its 'just moving the acrylic down the cone mold a couple inches'. Well see... it depends on how the microbubbles are with the higher output pumps. One option for te XL would simply be to run with two eheim 1262 pumps rather than the Red Dragon 6500.

So no, it wont be long before they are in the country, but it will be a bit before things are up to full speed with some of the models.

[davelina24]

I would like a PM on the specs, pricing and availablity.

[antiant]

i also would like pricing and availability info, i want this skimmer so bad.

[JCTewks]

so that's what you've been doing with those 2400's :lol::lol::lol:


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10966728#post10966728 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
First batch of 'test' models made it here a couple days ago. For some reason, mine hasnt arrived yet, but half the test models didnt arrive either... so it appears it shouldnt be long. I say 'test' because these are coming with a sligltly different pump (eheim 1262s here are 20% faster). Once a few 'test' situations are taken care of, then the flood gates should open. I know the importer asked for so many skimmers on a monthly basis that Anton has his work cut out for him.

Also, Klaus wont provide Red Dragons in 110v to ATB... no doubt one part competition, and one part Klaus being so freakin' busy (new factory move, new products, new US importer). So I have been working with Anton/ATB on the specs on how to make his own Laguna needlewheel/threadwheel pumps. So far, so good, but this is going to delay the Medium and XL models anyways. Also, the higher air intake of the US pumps might also warrant resizing the skimmers slightly for the US. Rather than 'retard' the pumps like Deltec and H&S do (clipping pins on the wheels or restricting the intake more... both options which kill the pump efficiency, raise heat, noise, etc), ATB might take advantage of the 60hz pumps and instead make the bodies slightly larger... like 20% larger, for US models. This sounds like alot, but its not... the Small's 7" bubble plate would become 8". Other companies who use cylinders on the main body cant do this as easily w/o a complete redesign and cost increase, but for ATB, its 'just moving the acrylic down the cone mold a couple inches'. Well see... it depends on how the microbubbles are with the higher output pumps. One option for te XL would simply be to run with two eheim 1262 pumps rather than the Red Dragon 6500.

So no, it wont be long before they are in the country, but it will be a bit before things are up to full speed with some of the models.

[hahnmeister]

Yeah. There is potential with a US company as well. A full range of Laguna based threadwheel pumps (custom volutes as well). Otherwise, yeah... Anton is working with Lagunas now as well, and very impressed.

Also working on a 24v submersable DC asperating pump... 3" diameter volute, 3/4"-7/8" thick, 1" in/out, up to 4000rpm, 50 watts max variable speed (2000lph, maybe more). No more problems with 'sputter' on startup due to lack of torque, unidirectional, less noise, no heat increase/efficiency loss due to the power factor drop that happens when pumps are converted from water to water+air... and just more efficient. Perhaps a 25watt version (1000lph max), 75watter(3000lph max, 1.5" in/out), and 100 watter as well (4000 max, 4" diameter volute) would follow. But getting the motor blocks made is the challenge. I figured out a very cost effective/quality method for the volutes. Still, with the rising prices of pumps from the EU, and lack of much quality from Chinese, it looks like its time for the US to start making its own high-end skimmer pumps. Otherwise our choices for good asperating pumps will be eheim 1260/62 needlewheels which will end up hitting $400, Aquabees for $200, and $1000 Red Dragons.

Im really shocked that there arent more DC pumps options by now, if not for skimmers, for wavemaking. As of yet... the tunze 7400/2 might be a cool skimmer pump as well.

But these are topics for a different thread. As of yet, I might have found a US mfg for the DC pumps... otherwise www.messner-pumpen.de ... which might be who makes the motors for the new Red Dragon 2 pumps. I have tried some bilge pumps, but they arent good for long term use, nor do they have a decent volute for a needlewheel. Ill update when the time comes.

[hahnmeister]

Well... they are in the US now. The importer sent me this:
http://s230.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/atbusa/?action=view&current=smallonereadjustedtake2.flv

Just a sneak peak... dont know if this is the final way they are supposed to work or what, but they look pretty cool. Mine hasn't arrived yet because the skimmers came through Cali. Should be a matter of a few days though (I hope).

[Creetin]

Looks very impressive, But it also looks like it has alot of turbulence in the body of the skimmer. JMO
I would like pricing info, But i was never gotten back with.

[dphins]

I agree with Creetin, there appears to be a lot of turbulence?
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/atbusa/bubbles.jpg

[frank2926]

if you look thru the pics it looks like its only 10 hours.

It needs time to break in . Thats when I would like to see it.

[hulley]

Following along!

[Klaus Jansen]

[i]<a
... As of yet, I might have found a US mfg for the DC pumps... otherwise www.messner-pumpen.de ... which might be who makes the motors for the new Red Dragon 2 pumps....

@Hahn...
wrong...:D the RD2 Motorblocks dont building Messner. The RD2 Brushless DC-Motorblocks is a development from Royal-Exclusiv and not a development from a Pondpump-manufacturer..
The Messner-pumps are Asynchron-Pumps....not BDC-Pumps....

ATB is a is a respectable company. Royal-Exclusic dont have Problems for delivery ReD-Dragon -Technologie to ATB. I calling today with Anton Burian..

best regards... Klaus

[reef / aholic]

Always good to hear from the man Klaus!!!!

[mavgi]

Klaus you have Regards from Carl Coyne from Poland .

[hahnmeister]

Well, it seems something has changed at Royal Exclusiv, and the medium and XL models will be offered with 4500/6500 Red Dragon pumps after all... unless Anton has other options...

The new 'Loop Wheel' will also be offered as an option.

As for Messner, I heard it second hand from someone, and from the way it was conveyed, I wasnt sure if they were saying the RD2 motors were being built by Messner, or that Messner could make something like it. I didnt know you were making the motors as well Klaus! That is quite an undertaking if so.

Well, I got my 'Small' skimmer today. As I am still recovering from the flu, and this is a sort of 'test model' for the US, I dont have any stats yet, but have taken some readings for electrical and air-flow. Tomorrow I will be able to do more, but I can give some preliminary pics and info on the Small model.

Tomorrow...:blown:

[FinsReef]

hahnmeister,
When talking about H&S and comparing them to a skimmer that you are trying to market, I would greatly appreciate that you get the specs and fact about correct about H&S,
The following statement is completely WRONG when talking about H&S. Evidently you have never seen the H&S impellers, or you would know that they do not cut any pins at all.
Also, the higher air intake of the US pumps might also warrant resizing the skimmers slightly for the US. Rather than 'retard' the pumps like Deltec and H&S do (clipping pins on the wheels or restricting the intake more... both options which kill the pump efficiency, raise heat, noise, etc),

Please let me know how H&S retards the Eheim pumps, because that is news to me.


I have attached a picture for you to actually see the H&S impeller line.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/finsreef/DSC00322.jpg
Again,
Please be accurate with your information when using H&S to try to promote the sale of ATB.

Regards,
Brian

[JCTewks]

well, to me it looks like there are lots of pins missing out of those impellers! they also don't look like they'd be very balanced with a pin configuration like that.

is that 4 different impellers or are my eyes playing tricks on me?

[woz9683]

Or is the intake to the pump on the H&S restricted? I don't know, I don't own one, but Hahn didn't necessarily direct both of those flaws at both companies. And you only addressed one of the two possible flaws mentioned Brian.

And I'd have to agree with Jeff anyway, those pinwheels certainly look irregular at best. Just because the pins aren't physically clipped off doesn't mean they didn't alter the design of the pinwheel for the US.

Either way, it's hardly marketing to suggest a possible future improvement to a product. If ATB is even considering that possibility (resizing for US market), it's certainly not in production yet, so how is what Hahn said even a positive comment? I mean, it's a good suggestion sure, but it's not marketing any existing feature. At the most all it shows is the difficulty faced when adapting a pump from one frequency to another, and it illustrates the methods that have been used to correct the issue (by Deltec and H&S) in the past and future methods that could potentially be a more effective way of correcting the problem.

[hansmatt]

I'm sure they are balanced otherwise you're right there would be some major wobble. I'd think that spacing the pins allows for better bubble breakup.

[DeltecRules]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10983048#post10983048 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
well, to me it looks like there are lots of pins missing out of those impellers! they also don't look like they'd be very balanced with a pin configuration like that.

is that 4 different impellers or are my eyes playing tricks on me?

Each pinwheel in the pic represents different voltages that different countries use. So the configurations of each needlewheel have to be different so they can run properly on the correct voltage.

Here is the link for the different aquabee pinwheels different countries use.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1041683

[FinsReef]

I only ask for accurate information to be relayed. The H&S impellers are very balanced, injection molded to the specific voltage and Hz of the country they are used in. We do not cut or remove any pins for the US Version. There are no restrictions on the intake or output side of the H&S Eheim pumps. As a matter of fact, H&S has a special impeller cover, and output made for the Eheims to allow for the most air flow possible. All this has been discussed on ReefCentral before. It can be found with a search.
JCTewks,
well, to me it looks like there are lots of pins missing out of those impellers! they also don't look like they'd be very balanced with a pin configuration like that.

is that 4 different impellers or are my eyes playing tricks on me?

If this was a top down picture, then you would see that some pins are shorter than others,. The pattern is as follows. There are 3 rows of pins. Outer row all 30 pins are full height. Middle row has 24 pins. 2 full height then one short, two full height then short, then follows the pattern all the way thru. Inner row has 16 pins 4 pins-open-4 pins-open. This is the allow the proper balance of the impeller, the correct weight for the motor, and the MAXIMUM bubble generation with the minimum water flow possible.

The US version of the pumps produce MORE airflow than the Euro version.

woz9683,

To start what second flaw are you referring to? If it was about restricting the intake, then please look at this picture
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/finsreef/DSC00062_1.jpg
The impeller cover on the right is a standard Eheim, the one on the left is the H&S custom impeller cover. Please note the enlarged opening of the custom cover.
I again ask, How does H&S restrict the Eheim pumps?

All I am requesting that accurate information be used. Klaus has also had to correct Hans. I am sure that I could find other examples in this thread of incorrect information.
As for Hans marketing the skimmers, to come on here, talk negative about other companies products, while recommending, suggesting, putting importer in direct contact with the buyer, that IS marketing, plain and simple. It all brings more business to ATB. IF this falls in Reef Centrals rules, then fine, but I do feel that if Hans is going to make a statement, it should at least be accurate.

[hansmatt]

Spoken like a true professional...well done!
There is little difference between speculation, guessing, and stating "fact" from unknown/unnamed sources with unverifiable credentials. We should all get the facts straight before we speak, and certainly question those who speak without authority to do so.

[woz9683]

Ok, I was just trying to get clarification about the "possible" flaws that Hahn mentioned, and I noticed that in your first reply (Brian) you only mentioned the impeller pin clipping. Thank you for clarifying the other point, yes the restriction on the intake was the second point.

Also, I understand that Hahn has been helping ATB make it to the US and he has been keeping this thread updated on RC. Call it marketing, whatever, I won't contest that. That particular statement you quoted was what I was referring to, and it was certainly not positive toward ATB and it didn't seem negative toward H&S or Deltec to me. I think it pointed out that ATB is still very new to the US market, that their product is not perfect, and that it does in fact need some work. It also pointed out a way that the product could be improved while giving examples of other ways the same improvement had been accomplished by other companies. After all, the inefficiency concern is rather minimal and the net result is an improvement.

Just one last point FWIW. Injection molding is by nature, not a uniform process. Just because the parts were injection molded that does not mean they are perfectly balanced. I'm sure they are very close and more than sufficient for this application, I just wanted to make sure these facts were also represented accurately :) . Injection molding is what I do, and I have more than enough first hand experience (not speculation, guessing, or stating "fact") to be able to say that it is not perfect by a long shot.

[hahnmeister]

Wow. What happened while I was away?

I am sorry Brian. I didnt mean to imply that H&S or Deltecs are inferior products in any way, or to step on your toes. I was trying to say that some things are a 'work in progress', and while some companies take one approach, ATB might take another.

Let me be more specific. What I have seen with 60hz eheims is about a 20% increase in the air intake which matches their 20% increase in speed.

Now, I remember Deltec having problems in the early days with turbulence, actually telling users of certain models to restrict the air intake a bit... and while this may help with neck turbulence, restricting the air intake alone means more water turbulence.

So Deltec started 'clipping the pins' on certain sized pinwheels. This lowered the air and water throughput.

If memory serves me correct, I remember you dealing with certain performance issues in the H&S/finsreef forums by 'clipping some pins' as well. This wasnt across a whole line, but perhaps on a case by case basis. Now, I could be wrong, and I dont mean to spread misinformation, but I can see H&S does do something different, but to the same outcome. Rather than take one pinwheel, and cut some pins, you mold different pinwheels for US vs. EU. Okay, fine... different method, same end result. All Im saying is that the US versions have to be made slightly different from the EU ones. I didnt mean to put ATB up against H&S in that respect. The H&S A200 1260 is perhaps one of the best designed skimmers I have ever seen. It is 'classic' in the sense that it is a very good performer, and is an 'icon' of sorts as far as needlewheels are concerned. It is an icon because of its proportions, its pump, its results, etc. So when comparing the ATB to something, I thought that a 28-30" tall, 8" diameter, eheim 1260/62 pinwheel powered recirc skimmer would be a good match. I could have just as easily picked the Deltec AP 851, but no offense to Deltec... but I think most people would agree that they would take the H&S over the Deltec. To me, the H&S is more of an icon.

The other reason I picked it is because of my current skimmer... a retrofitted AquaEuro Recirc 265 which is anything but stock. It uses a Sicce PSK 2500 to get 1000-1200lph of air, and also happens to be a 8" diameter, 30" tall recirc skimmer. So the closest comparison I could make would be to a H&S A200-1260.

So H&S for US are same body size and everything as EU models it seems, not 'retarded' in some way. That must be why the A200 2x1260 in the EU is considered such a steady performer, yet the one over here is considered by some to be too turbulent... so H&S started making a A250 2x1260. In effect, it is a skimmer body resize to deal with the higher output of the pumps. That is something more recent though... as that skimmer has only been out for less than a year, right?

As far as marketing goes... I might work with a company to improve a product... yes. Anyone here can do that by simply posting a suggestion, or by calling up the company. As soon as I would be on ATB's payroll, then yes, this would all be commercial posting. Plenty of people here post threads on other products in the past. Sometimes these reviews are good, sometimes bad. Only time will tell about the ATB's, as you state yourself. But if this is some form of marketing or commercial posting, then so would all those threads on Hydor Korallias, SEIO Polario, PFO Solaris, CoralVue LumenBrights, Bubblekings, and other 'non-sponsor' product posts. This is a consumer driven hobby... not Yoga. The exchange of money and marketing through 3rd person exchanges are part of the package.

One concern about the eheims is the air intake/higher throughput of the 60hz models. When I got my ATB in last night, it started chucking air bubbles like you wouldnt believe from the output! I was concerned, but sure enough, after a few hours of break-in, there were none. I dont know if the turbulence is more than Anton would like, but the skimmer does perform. I started getting skimmate in 1/2 hour.

There is one problem though. The air intake on the ATB venturi is 1/4"... no doubt plenty for the EU version, but it was too restrictive for this version, and if anything, means more water turbulence due to the air intake being restricted. I put a Euroreef venturi on (same inside diameter, but a larger air inlet), and the air intake jumped up a bit. This is something that will just have to be revised. Not that its a huge difference, but hey, might as well get the most out of it.

I also have a threadwheel impeller, and that thing really took off even more.

[Maximus]

Can you take a pic of of the skimmer?

[rishma]

Brian - well done as always.

hanh - FWIW thank you for the very reasonable response to Brian. While I understand his immediate displeasure with your original statements, I think your response was great and this thread can remain on track.



so nice to see civilized conversations on RC.


I wish the ATB's were recircs.

[JRaquatics]

Jon, when are we going to get to see some pics and one of your great write ups.

Just so that others know Hans is always hot on one subject. Like he said he was big on Aqua Euro, Since pumps, ATI and others. Right now it's ATB, probably because he thinks it's promising, not that he is intentionally promoting. I for one always like to read what Hans has to say in theory or as fact.

[rishma]

Just so that others know Hans is always hot on one subject. Like he said he was big on Aqua Euro, Since pumps, ATI and others. Right now it's ATB, probably because he thinks it's promising, not that he is intentionally promoting. I for one always like to read what Hans has to say in theory or as fact

definitely true. i think it is called passion.

[hahnmeister]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=10986333#post10986333

[JRaquatics]

Wow that was quick. Thanks Jon

[bernie lyons]

hahn , how big are the drilled holes into the bubble plate itself ?
Thanks -bernie lyons

[hahnmeister]

Gosh, I forgot to check that exactly. About 1/4" they look like. I can check later and give an exact, or ask Anton.

[hansmatt]

Nice review Jon, well done.

[ConcreteReefer]

$1096= "small skimmer"
$1948= "normal skimmer"


Sorry, Is it me or does that seem like alot-I know the Euro is goin through the roof ($1.48+/-) and the "cool" thing right now are these cone skimmers but come on.

I really like the idea but it just seems pricey- Get rid of that $200+ Eheim & put a cheap $40 QO on there, or at least give an option to buy the skimmer w/o the pump.



I'll just take a custom skimmer by Spazz w/ a Baldor for that price.




http://swfmas.com/gallery2/d/7599-2/IMG_7696.JPG

[hahnmeister]

hansmatt, thanks for the compliment, and thanks to all the rest of you as well. Its fun for me, but I can imagine where some of you are at now... where I was almost a year ago when I first stumbled onto the ATB website and thought 'hey, that looks like something new that would be cool to try'.

[hahnmeister]

ConcreteReefer, yeah, I hear you on the price. I wouldnt go comparing it to any other skimmers anymore though. I did before I got it because I wanted to compare to what I was using, but the skimming 'principle' behind this thing seems different. There is something to this whole 'cone' thing. Im sure it would be easy for Spazz to fabricate cones though if he wanted. He is already fabricating 18" diameter pipe from flat cast sheets... bending it an angle is the next step.

I also like this thing because it doesnt take up alot of room for what it does, and its dead silent thanks to that eheim. As of yet, there isnt a pump made in the US that can work like the eheim.

At that, I will agree with you on the other thing... pricing is one hurdle that pretty much any mfg. in the EU will have to overcome when selling in the US. I hate to say it, but at what point will EU makers just pull out because they cant make enough/lower their prices enough? They would have to recover the losses through sheer volume, or from having their stuff made somewhere cheaper than the US even (perhaps this was KZ's strategy by having the Revolution made in Taiwan). Klaus seems to be set up to do that rather well in the future if the Euro keeps climbing because he is increasing his volume and picked up a new, lower priced distributor... but what about the rest?

It is one reason I am working on that 48 watt DC needlewheel pump though (yeah, I think I have the motor nailed down)... better than the possibility of a $500 eheim needlewheel...lol.

[Fishbulb2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10657095#post10657095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
power factor helps compute the pump efficiency. if the power factor is a .5, then, at the very least, 1/2 of its electrical use (real power) is going to heat the tank/air.

I know this is a little late but i'm just reading through this thread now. What is an acceptable power factor? When would you toss out a pump? I just found that my meshmod 3500 sedra has a PF of .42 and my Eheim 1260 has a PF of .48
Doesn't seem so great.
Sorry for the off topic question.
FB

[hahnmeister]

For a needlewheel, its a tricky thing. Some of the best ones still only have a power factor of .65ish. Some of the worst are in the .30 range (AquaEuro 590's). These eheims are usually a bit higher, but I think that the reason is because the modified deltec and H&S models push alot more water & air, so the pf isnt as low as this one. Acceptable? Thats a relative term.

One of the big reasons for developing a DC asperating pump is the idea that DC pumps dont suffer from power factor efficiency problems.

[hahnmeister]

For a needlewheel, its a tricky thing. Some of the best ones still only have a power factor of .65ish. Some of the worst are in the .30 range (AquaEuro 590's). These eheims are usually a bit higher, but I think that the reason is because the modified deltec and H&S models push alot more water & air, so the pf isnt as low as this one. Acceptable? Thats a relative term.

One of the big reasons for developing a DC asperating pump is the idea that DC pumps dont suffer from power factor efficiency problems.

[Klaus Jansen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10981091#post10981091 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister

As for Messner, I heard it second hand from someone, and from the way it was conveyed, I wasnt sure if they were saying the RD2 motors were being built by Messner, or that Messner could make something like it. I didnt know you were making the motors as well Klaus!

Hi Jon...
do you want first and correct informations, ask me....:D :D
No, .... Messner dont building the DC-Motor for Royal-Exclusiv.

Do you want see the first speedadjustable BDC-Motor for skimmers, please visit me in Cologne and i show you the first 5000rpm-BRDC-Motor on a BK 400...

@mavgi......
Carl Coyne ? Yes, i remember... is that the US-Guy where living in Poland ? Nice to heard from him... best regards retour...:)


klaus.....

[Klaus Jansen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10981091#post10981091 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister

As for Messner, I heard it second hand from someone, and from the way it was conveyed, I wasnt sure if they were saying the RD2 motors were being built by Messner, or that Messner could make something like it. I didnt know you were making the motors as well Klaus!

Hi Jon...
do you want first and correct informations, ask me....:D :D
No, .... Messner dont building the DC-Motor for Royal-Exclusiv.

Do you want see the first speedadjustable BDC-Motor for skimmers, please visit me in Cologne and i show you the first 5000rpm-BRDC-Motor on a BK 400...

@mavgi......
Carl Coyne ? Yes, i remember... is that the US-Guy where living in Poland ? Nice to heard from him... best regards retour...:)


klaus.....

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11020136#post11020136 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klaus Jansen
Hi Jon...
do you want first and correct informations, ask me....:D :D

klaus.....

I sent you a PM a month ago, never heard back. It was regarding this and a couple other things.

[Klaus Jansen]

Hi Jon...
you now... my english is not good for conservation on high-level...;)

regards. Klaus

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11020138#post11020138 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klaus Jansen



@mavgi......
Carl Coyne ? Yes, i remember... is that the US-Guy where living in Poland ? Nice to heard from him... best regards retour...:)


klaus.....

yes , the guy that build 2- 30.000 liter tank (if i am not wrong one was int the first floor thesecond in the fifth floor ) he back here to usa ... want to do some business... :)

[hahnmeister]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/PUMPE.jpg
Thats the new Laguna based pump for the new ATB's. I suggested making the volutes larger than the stock ones, or than the Red Dragons too... more air. Slightly less pressure handling with larger volume volutes and outlet, but these cone skimmers make very little back-pressure on the pumps due to the lower waterline. The 2400 should be able to do over 4000lph of air (maybe a little less on the skimmer) at about 85 watts like this. Larger volute/impeller well + outlet= more air.

Oh, and I got some news:

The 'nano' which runs on an eheim 1250 threadwheel gets alot more air than I thought... 660lph actually! Its a little monster! Anton bores out the outlet, and uses a face-bonded connection to unrestrict the outlet. The insides are slightly contoured out, and of course, there is the threadwheel.

660lph on the nano!! Thats almost as much as the 'Small'! Now, if Anton would only work a little Magic on the eheim 1260 in the same way... it would be a 1200+lph monster as well no doubt.

[JRaquatics]

That is one sweet looking pump. Will ATB be selling the pumps alone?

[victor90]

Yes the pumps will be available seperately
Pricing has yet to be determined

[bsk997]

I'm interested in purchasing a new skimmer just to try something new and was trying to decide between the ATB Small and the Bubble King Mini 180.
I have a 90g with 30g sump but will be upgrading to a 150g sometime within the next year or whenever the wife allows it. :)
The new ATB Small conical skimmers look really nice but the pump seems to be going through some changes and could get even better? This makes me hesitant to purchase it now and have an inferior pump.
The Mini BK are on sale right now and the 180 is about $225 cheaper then the ATB Small.
I'm torn between the two right now. Anybody have an opinion on the two?

[hahnmeister]

Actually, for your 90g tank, I would look at the ATB 'Nano'. Its 90% of what the 'Small' is it turns out.... 660lph in a slightly smaller package with its heavily modified eheim 1250 (it puts the yet to be released eheim 1255 to shame, and the aquabee 2000/1).

[andyco]

Hahn, what do you think of ATB's max recommended sizes?

[glassbox-design]

i wish anton would make a small size that looks simmilar to the small. i am in the nano size range, but would much rather upgrade to the small just based on looks :lol:

[victor90]

Flint I'm a little confused

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149203#post11149203 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by victor90
Flint I'm a little confused

He is a stickler for looks, and i imagine the white of the small is more appealing to his eye :)

[victor90]

Flint If you want a nano in white all you have to do is pm me and I can arrange it

[GSMguy]

Its that Easy :)

[Klaus Jansen]

@Hahn...
wow..:eek1: . nice Red Dragon BK-Pump Copy..... i want calling Anton tomorrow..:D

here the Original BK Pump-Design, where we using on the BK-Supermarines......
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/laminar/SM13.jpg

regards.. Klaus

[Lumamae]

I've been reading that the big ATB is based on the Laguna pump, not Red Dragon... can't figure out why Klaus is so pushed out of shape. So much politics in this hobby, especially in Germany.

Victor090, is Ed at KM Associates Int'l your first authorized dealer to get a Nano for testing? I saw the Small a couple of weeks ago and the foaming was so soft, like it floats up into the cone area. He mentioned earlier that he'll be getting the Nano from you Sunday and should have it up and running Monday, can't wait to see the Nano next week. I'll take lots of pictures. Will you have a list of authorized dealers posted on your website soon?

The comment about white, I own a BM160 right now because I could no longer wait for the ATBs is come into America. With all the legal threats from KZ, wasn't sure if this was even going to happen. Believe me, you DON'T want white. All the fish crap shows up too easy on white and difficult to clean out of all the crevices. I would prefer dark grey over any other color. Black shows up salt creep and calcification easily.

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149430#post11149430 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lumamae
I've been reading that the big ATB is based on the Laguna pump, not Red Dragon... can't figure out why Klaus is so pushed out of shape. So much politics in this hobby, especially in Germany.



I dont think you are reading Klaus's post correctly.





also ATB is not from germany.

[glassbox-design]

it's more than the white, but the dimensions as well. it's more of just a tube....i prefer the wider base of the small, and i imagine the benefits of the cone shape are increased from it.

but yes white is always nice :D (thanks for clarifying GSM )

[Klaus Jansen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149477#post11149477 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
I dont think you are reading Klaus's post correctly.


@GSMguy..
exactly...:) Anton is not my enemy, we are at long time Business-friends... i am only wondering of the Pumpdesign... the same, of the BK-Supermarines-Pumps

regards... Klaus

[Jim_S]

ATB has used the RD's on the skimmers they put out in Europe. Klaus is probably "not amused" because ATB is now stepping around him and having the manufacturer that build his pumps, build their new pumps for the US market.

Hopefully its all just a bunch of huffing and puffing and we'll get these babies State side soon.

Edit: it appears that Klaus has altered his post from when I had originally posted. I guess he's not mad at all....

[Klaus Jansen]

@Jimdog...
Anton from ATB is the first User of the adjustable BDC-Pumps for skimmers, where comming next time. This Pump is manufactured by RE. I dont have a Problem for delivery my Competitor with DC.Technologie. ATB is real a seriosly Company.

regards.....

[Ewan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11147090#post11147090 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
[IMG]

The 'nano' which runs on an eheim 1250 threadwheel gets alot more air than I thought... 660lph actually! Its a little monster! Anton bores out the outlet, and uses a face-bonded connection to unrestrict the outlet. The insides are slightly contoured out, and of course, there is the threadwheel.

660lph on the nano!! Thats almost as much as the 'Small'! Now, if Anton would only work a little Magic on the eheim 1260 in the same way... it would be a 1200+lph monster as well no doubt.

That's the mod I did to my 1250, and it's an animal!! The face-bonded connection made a HUGE difference. The outlet is 3/8" otherwise, with an ehiem threaded fitting providing most of the restriction. I posted a thread about it a couple of months ago. I really wish I had an air meter, because the I'm getting a crazy amount of air out of my 1250 at 12 watts.

I also bored out the inside and inlet heavily. Every little bit of material that I removed improved performance. Now I'm left with very thin plastic, and I'm quitting while I'm ahead. :)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1165814&highlight=modded+1250

They're a great pump. The consistency of the plastic volute if very forgiving ;)

[Jim_S]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149699#post11149699 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klaus Jansen
@Jimdog...
Anton from ATB is the first User of the adjustable BDC-Pumps for skimmers, where comming next time. This Pump is manufactured by RE. I dont have a Problem for delivery my Competitor with DC.Technologie. ATB is real a seriosly Company.

regards.....

I was speaking about the ATB's that are sold in Europe that come with standard RD pump, not the DC pumps.

I figured it might have caused you to post that you were "not amused" because ATB is using the same company to build their pumps as you did for the regular AC versions of the RD. If it doesn't bother you, thats great!!! In my opinion, you have the right attitude with regards to competetion :D It's much better for the hobby!!

Cheers,

Jim

[victor90]

Yes Ed is the first dealer to have the nano skimmer for testing
Aquatic gallery has the small set up on there tank already.
yes there will be a list of dealers soon.
I hope you understand I try not to post to much because of fear of getting banned from reefcentral. I am trying to setup sponsorship and a atb forum
thanks Victor

[dphins]

Victor, do you still have the Deltec ap702 on your tank or do you have the ATB skimmer? And if so, which ATB model do you have?

[victor90]

dphinsx2
I took down the ap702 and was running the small. The small performed very well on my tank even though the tank had a ap702 on it which i still feel is a very good skimmer. I had a dealer that had to have a small so I gave him my small.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149117#post11149117 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andyco
Hahn, what do you think of ATB's max recommended sizes?

I think they are good for a lightly stocked tank... a Small could handle a 400g with light stocking (say, 6-8 medium sized fish). With heavy stocking, Id go half... about 200g. So nobody 'lied' with the ratings exactly... you know, every tank is unique. When my 125g is heavily stocked (had a recent parasite problem what killed 6 of my Solar Wrasses!) the Small churns out coffee... filling the cup every 2-3 days.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149136#post11149136 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
i wish anton would make a small size that looks simmilar to the small. i am in the nano size range, but would much rather upgrade to the small just based on looks :lol:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149531#post11149531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
it's more than the white, but the dimensions as well. it's more of just a tube....i prefer the wider base of the small, and i imagine the benefits of the cone shape are increased from it.

but yes white is always nice :D (thanks for clarifying GSM )

The proportions are based on the air flow and water flow ratios of the pumps that feed the skimmers. A pump with a higher ratio of water to air will have more of a slope, or 'cone' if you will since it needs more 'sorting space' down below, and more bubble plate area to diffuse turbulence, and a pump with a lower amount of water per parts air will not need as much of a slope (more of a cylinder, or, technically, more of a slope if you are talking relative to vertical). Anyways, the neck, or the top of the skimmer will depend more on the air output of the pump. So a skimmer that has a pump on it that does 1 part air to 2 parts water will look more like the 'Normal' skimmer, and a pump that does 1 part air to 5 parts water will have more of a cone shape to it (less of an incline).

The remarkable thing about these skimmers, and Im sure its due to the cone and bubble plate, is the efficiency of the bubbles. Normally, I suggest a ratio of 60-70lph per square inch of neck... so a 1000lph of air pump would have about a 4.5-5" skimmer neck. When I hit that rate with the small though... all it would skim was light yellow urine that I could see right through... no matter how low I lowered the water (or it would get too low and skim nothing). The ideal seems to be more like 30-40lph per in^2 for these skimmers. The only way this is possible is if the bubbles are that much more efficient at gathering proteins.

Its also interesting with regards to debates on skimming light vs. dark. Just something to consider here, but I think that skimming lighter may not mean more depending on the skimmer design. It may just mean your neck diameter is too narrow. With this design, and the tall column of bubbles, the 'drainage' that is what proponents of lighter skimming try to overcome, isnt as big a deal. Frankly, the skimmer skims better dark. When skimming light, it was just because I was using too much air, and the skimmate production actually dropped in volume (the skimmer makes more skimmate if dark with lower air than if I run higher with lighter skimmate). The skimmer doesnt pick up hard particulate matter as well either with more air... like I said... it was just 'arizona green tea' in the cup. Something to consider...

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149678#post11149678 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jimdogg187
ATB has used the RD's on the skimmers they put out in Europe. Klaus is probably "not amused" because ATB is now stepping around him and having the manufacturer that build his pumps, build their new pumps for the US market.

Hopefully its all just a bunch of huffing and puffing and we'll get these babies State side soon.

Edit: it appears that Klaus has altered his post from when I had originally posted. I guess he's not mad at all....

Not that its a huge deal, but I would like to clarify so there is no misconception. ATB is not going around Klaus's back, they are merely buying a pump that is available on the open market from Hagen/Askoll. If there is anyone to blame... blame me. I sent Anton the specs and showed him the 'DIY Red Dragon' thread, as well as some of my final results. These Airstars are more of my design than they are of the Red Dragons actually. See, I realized that the Red Dragons have that big looking volute on them, but its mostly material thickness... the volute volume is pretty much the same as the stock Lagunas. If you enlarge this volume (as well as outlet), you boost the air handling of the pump to absurd levels... at the cost of some pressure handling, which for a needlewheel pump, isnt a huge loss.

The specs are more based on a design I sent to Anton. My design used a one or two-piece square block volute to make the volute. It would be easier to make (1 or 2 parts at most to machine) and not look like a copy as much. I suppose Anton wanted to stick with more of what he knows already though for now. He just makes them with larger volume for more flow. Im working on a 1-piece injection molded volute for the volutes though.

[Maximus]

You guys couldn't have picked a more competent dealer than Ed. The man flat out knows his skimmers! He's truly a person I would trust 100%.

[glassbox-design]

hahn, the cone on the nano is minimal in reduction. simmilar performance could be had with just a straight tube. air can cause just as much turbulence as water. if what has been said is true, the larger base will still improve performance.

[alex93se]

Hahn,
I've always enjoyed reading your posts regarding skimmer design and performance. You obvious know what you're talking about. I find some of the above posts offensive however. You've been trying to duplicate red dragon pumps for a while now. In your diy post, you even ask RE about their design. You've duplicate the red dragons minus some of their custom tooling, etc.. and then you post that your design to ATB isn't the same? They look identical, even though the volute may have more volume. They use the same motor blocks, minus some windings in the motor block...maybe. To me and anyone that has read your previous posts, you blatantly copied RE's design. It doesn't have to be exact, but the intent was certainly there. To copy someone else's intellectual property for a diy is one thing. To supply another company this info for your/their gain is wrong. This is obviously my opinion and I will not support ATB and their products.

Alex.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149117#post11149117 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by andyco
Hahn, what do you think of ATB's max recommended sizes?

I think they are good for a lightly stocked tank... a Small could handle a 400g with light stocking (say, 6-8 medium sized fish). With heavy stocking, Id go half... about 200g. So nobody 'lied' with the ratings exactly... you know, every tank is unique. When my 125g is heavily stocked (had a recent parasite problem what killed 6 of my Solar Wrasses!) the Small churns out coffee... filling the cup every 2-3 days.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149136#post11149136 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
i wish anton would make a small size that looks simmilar to the small. i am in the nano size range, but would much rather upgrade to the small just based on looks :lol:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149531#post11149531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
it's more than the white, but the dimensions as well. it's more of just a tube....i prefer the wider base of the small, and i imagine the benefits of the cone shape are increased from it.

but yes white is always nice :D (thanks for clarifying GSM )

The proportions are based on the air flow and water flow ratios of the pumps that feed the skimmers. A pump with a higher ratio of water to air will have more of a slope, or 'cone' if you will since it needs more 'sorting space' down below, and more bubble plate area to diffuse turbulence, and a pump with a lower amount of water per parts air will not need as much of a slope (more of a cylinder, or, technically, more of a slope if you are talking relative to vertical). Anyways, the neck, or the top of the skimmer will depend more on the air output of the pump. So a skimmer that has a pump on it that does 1 part air to 2 parts water will look more like the 'Normal' skimmer, and a pump that does 1 part air to 5 parts water will have more of a cone shape to it (less of an incline).

The remarkable thing about these skimmers, and Im sure its due to the cone and bubble plate, is the efficiency of the bubbles. Normally, I suggest a ratio of 60-70lph per square inch of neck... so a 1000lph of air pump would have about a 4.5-5" skimmer neck. When I hit that rate with the small though... all it would skim was light yellow urine that I could see right through... no matter how low I lowered the water (or it would get too low and skim nothing). The ideal seems to be more like 30-40lph per in^2 for these skimmers. The only way this is possible is if the bubbles are that much more efficient at gathering proteins.

Its also interesting with regards to debates on skimming light vs. dark. Just something to consider here, but I think that skimming lighter may not mean more depending on the skimmer design. It may just mean your neck diameter is too narrow. With this design, and the tall column of bubbles, the 'drainage' that is what proponents of lighter skimming try to overcome, isnt as big a deal. Frankly, the skimmer skims better dark. When skimming light, it was just because I was using too much air, and the skimmate production actually dropped in volume (the skimmer makes more skimmate if dark with lower air than if I run higher with lighter skimmate). The skimmer doesnt pick up hard particulate matter as well either with more air... like I said... it was just 'arizona green tea' in the cup. Something to consider...

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11152462#post11152462 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by alex93se
Hahn,
I've always enjoyed reading your posts regarding skimmer design and performance. You obvious know what you're talking about. I find some of the above posts offensive however. You've been trying to duplicate red dragon pumps for a while now. In your diy post, you even ask RE about their design. You've duplicate the red dragons minus some of their custom tooling, etc.. and then you post that your design to ATB isn't the same? They look identical, even though the volute may have more volume. They use the same motor blocks, minus some windings in the motor block...maybe. To me and anyone that has read your previous posts, you blatantly copied RE's design. It doesn't have to be exact, but the intent was certainly there. To copy someone else's intellectual property for a diy is one thing. To supply another company this info for your/their gain is wrong. This is obviously my opinion and I will not support ATB and their products.

Alex.

Perhaps I can change your mind here... let me give you some background. Long ago, when I saw the Red Dragons, I realized it looked just like the Aquaclear HiSpec 5000 pumps I had in my cichlid tanks (the 5000 became the 901, then now the 110). So I always thought about 'what makes them so great?'

As the years went on, and I started playing with skimmer pumps, more and more heavily, I realized that there was a certain type of pump that makes the ideal skimmer pump... a pond pump. I could have just as easily gone with an OASE, but nobody from there got back to me if their pumps were salt safe. So, I tinkered with the Laguna pumps I have used on my mother's pond (she now uses an OASE, but in the past we have used Laguna, Mag-Drive, etc). Wow! But the stock Lagunas have very 'inconvenient' volutes. If they were threaded, rather than 'snap-fit' or 'barb fitting', I have no doubt that they would be the most popular pump for reef applications as well... easily besting anything from ReefFlo, Eheim, or Aqua Medic. As it turns out, the Laguna is best modified by replacing its whole volute, since unlike an eheim, Aquabee, oceanrunner, etc... the volute is not part of the pump. Well... after the 'pimp my pump aquaclear 802' doing 450lph of air, I figured out that enlarging the volute was the key factor for making a pump draw more air for less wattage and with less water.

So if one were to make a great skimmer pump, they would use a Laguna, a pump which despite being AC, maintains its power factor very well (efficiency & cool running). Or, one might use a pump by another great Italian pump company: Sicce. Sound familiar?

ATI's PSK2500 is the same pump as Tunze's hydrofoamer for the Master DOC skimmers. I dont see anyone bent out of shape about ATI buying the pumps, making them threadwheel, and using them for their Bubblemasters... :eek1:

Now, Anton had been trying to contact Klaus for months about getting Red Dragon pumps in 110v for the US. There was no response. Well, that puts Anton in a bit of a lurch, no? So what was he to do? Upon hearing the problem, I sent him the specs, the DIY Red Dragon link, etc.

See, the design Anton is using is no more Klaus's design than it is Hagens. If anything, Hagen could be upset that Klaus and Anton are using their motorblocks, reworking them a bit, and selling them for $1000! :lol: I mean, if Hagen realized the potential here, they could have just made the pumps themselves a long time ago... end of discussion. This is a possibility I might add. Hagen USA seems interested, and considering eheims recent entry into the market with the 1255 its a possibility. If hagen did this, I have no doubt they would be 'THE ONLY' skimmer pump on the market except some new DC ones. The RD is just how you turn a Laguna into a skimmer pump. Now, years ago, when Klaus started making RD's, there were problems... there was brass in the impellers, the torque/pump sizing was off, there wasnt the built in torque/speed/power factor adjusting electronics, and the outlets were centered. So Klaus baught custom motorblocks, redid the impellers with Ti shafts, etc... He did what it took to make a great pump. The thing is, Lagunas have changed over the years too, incorporating the tangential outlet like the RD's, using different electronics, removing the brass, etc.

Anton's design is simply doing what Klaus did years ago... 'how to turn the Laguna into a great skimmer pump'. If anything, its been improved upon as well. The larger volume means more air (less pressure/more flow). That was my input. Just look at that thing... that volute is monsterous. Antons pumps are no more Red Dragons than Lagunas... think of it that way.

FWIW, I did suggest a while back that Anton not use such a similar 'look', but I suppose he wanted to stick with what he knows. My original suggestion was to use a square block (clear acrylic or PVC) for the volute, which would just keep the pump from looking too much like a copy. Here were some of my original suggestions. I realized after that the block wouldnt have to be so large if the motor was flipped upside down; also getting the outlet closer to the bottom.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/FinalLagunadiagrampeg-1.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/LagunaModComp2.jpg

As of now, the design has evolved even further... the entire conversion can be done in one piece, and the volute clamps onto the motorblock so the entire motor is encased in a 'black box'. This would have kept people from even seeing the similarities to a Red Dragon all together... the entire pump would be a 'black box'. I might still do this via 'injection molding' to see if it works... if I cant just convince Hagen to do it.

FWIW, Antons design isnt completely Red Dragon though. The shaft is the stock ceramic. The motor blocks arent custom (which makes them considerably cheaper), and the specs on the volute/outlets are much larger. There is also no 'anti-lime' loop, since, because there are no custom windings for torque and speed, the shaft isnt Ti, and the whole thing runs cooler in the first place. Its a different beast in the end.

So its not copying anyone else's 'intellectual property'... the pumps arent really Klaus's to begin with. I dont know that there are any patents, not that it would take that for me to respect Klaus if he considered it that. I actually agree... I thought the design should have been simpler and square so as to not look like the RD... so its not my design anyways. My design was square (and not to mention made public, and Klaus even participated and doesnt seem as offended as you), so providing it to ATB was nothing. ATB is making the pump based on 'public knowledge'. And my design is nothing more than 'how to make the Laguna a great skimmer pump'. I plan on doing the same with DC pumps (I had the idea before Klaus revealed the RD2's, altough I am sure he was working on it long before). My intent was not to end up with a copy of the Red Dragon myself, just to make another great skimmer pump based on the Laguna... no different than ATI using the same pump as Tunze for their skimmers... like these guys: http://www.saltvattensguiden.se/forumet/showthread.php?t=7497

Sorry for the long 'blah-blah' post guys, but I wanted to clear that up.

[Lumamae]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11149477#post11149477 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
I dont think you are reading Klaus's post correctly.

also ATB is not from germany.

I don't think I'm too far off on Klaus's post. I should have said Europe instead of Germany, but then countries like Austria and Germany is as far apart as California and Oregon, right?

[Klaus Jansen]

See, the design Anton is using is no more Klaus's design than it is Hagens.


Antons pumps are no more Red Dragons than Lagunas...

Jon,...
thats not thrue and you now this. You really do not think, that are a copy ? Please look the Pictures....I phoned yesterday with Anton and he apologized. It wants to use another Design.


ATB-Pump
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/laminar/ATBPumpe.jpg

RE-Pumps
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/laminar/RD1-U.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/laminar/RD2-U2.jpg

[CruzinKim]

So, is the cat out of the bag? Laguna pond pumps = Red Dragon pumps, or RDs are modded Lagunas. No wonder the Orca Reeflo skimmer does so well and cheap compared to Bubblekings. Hummmmm :rolleye1: If there's a patent, isn't it on the special modification to produced a RD and not on the pump itself as the pump manufacturer is providing the pump. I love playing devil's advocate. :D

[kdblove_99]

I'm gonna need some popcorn by the time this is over. Those pumps do look identical in everyway. There is no way a RD pump can just be a Laguna modded, can it? they sell for that much?wow!

I dont think people care about copying that much look at that Lumenbright thread people are going koo-koo over them, tell me that is not a copy of the lumenarc?

[Klaus Jansen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11156195#post11156195 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CruzinKim
... Laguna pond pumps = Red Dragon pumps,

Nuts... Red Dragon Motorblocks are Custommade by Askoll with anouther electronical parts inside the Pump. Thats a big different to Pondpumps with 10 metercable...
Make a 1000 pices-order by Askoll an he make a Custommade Motorblock for you what you want, no Problem..:D :D :D

regards.. Klaus

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11156010#post11156010 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klaus Jansen
Antons pumps are no more Red Dragons than Lagunas...

Jon,...
thats not thrue and you now this. You really do not think, that are a copy ? Please look the Pictures....I phoned yesterday with Anton and he apologized. It wants to use another Design.


ATB-Pump
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/laminar/ATBPumpe.jpg

RE-Pumps
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/laminar/RD1-U.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/royal-exclusiv/laminar/RD2-U2.jpg

Klaus, I think something might be getting lost in translation here. I stand by what I said 'Antons pumps are no more Red Dragons than Lagunas'. I dont know if you disagree based on looks, or mechanicals, and in what way... can you clarify? I think you might have read/translated it differently from how I wrote it. How is or isnt the ATB pump like a Red Dragon? I think either way you respond to that, you will prove what I was trying to say.

What I mean is that Anton's pump is based on the Laguna, not a custom motorblock like the Red Dragon. In this case, the standard Laguna motorblock is fine. Thats why I said 'Anton's pumps are no more Red Dragons than Lagunas'.

For all those going 'wow, Red Dragons are nothing more than Lagunas?', here, see how much of them is, and how much of them isnt for yourself: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1094749&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
My response is: NO. The Red Dragons are a highly customized motor by Klaus/RE which happens to use the same motor block that Askoll/Hagen uses for its own Laguna/Aquaclear pumps(another way to put it would be to say they are distant cousins). The Red Dragons, Lagunas, etc use the same looking motorblock... a motorblock that isnt Klaus's design, but Askoll/Hagens. The confusion comes in because the motorblocks look so similar, and customizing them often has to be done in a similar method. These pumps are not just a simple badge swap or 'renaming' like the ATI threadwheels and Tunze hydrofoamer Sicce PSK 2500, or the Oceanrunner Turboflotor and Octopus Turbine. The Red Dragon Minis, although they look just like Lagunas 100% on the outside (besides the sticker), are nothing like Lagunas on the inside (well... I suppose they are mostly the same... just depends on how you look at it). The Red Dragon mini pumps add to the confusion even more. because from the outside they look the same. They may even use the same volute covers as the Lagunas, rather than the custom volutes on the larger models, but the similarities stop there. Since the Airstar design is not based on the same motors, no, it is not a Red Dragon. They may look similar, but they are not. Now, as far as I know, I didnt think how a pump looks was important since its such a utilitarian item.

The motorblock for the RD is based on the same motor block as the Hagen/Askoll Laguna pond pumps. You can see simply by looking at them. Klaus gets his motors made with custom windings, and then modifies them further when he gets them. This is where the similarities end. Anton is not using custom motorblocks. The standard Laguna volute has been enlarged with Antons on the inside as well as outside (there is more than one way to skin a cat... Klaus gets custom motors in this case).

If you think about it, the pumps do look similar, but since they are based on the same basic motorblock, the methods for converting the pump are going to be very similar. A base is needed, a new volute is needed, etc. So no matter what you do, the end results are going to share some similarities. Now, Ill admit, it wasnt my idea to make them look so much alike, as I have shown above. But I just provided the info, I didnt make the final design. It was also never my intent to copy the Red Dragon 100%... I never wanted to. Thats why I had suggested a square, 1-piece volute, and possibly encase the whole pump in a black box. I saw it as a simpler, lower cost, and somewhat improved design. I wanted to use stock motors (for my own design/purpose), which are considerably cheaper, and rather than modify the electronics to suit the impeller... instead modify the impeller, volute, and outlet to suit the motor... cutting cost. Sure, the standard Laguna might run 5-10% warmer (but they are so cool to begin with), or use 5-10% more electricity... but its performance can be 90% of what the Red Dragon is... and considering a Laguna 2400, or even 4200 can be had for about $150 US (they are cheaper to buy here than in the EU, go figure), its a cost effective decision.

Red Dragons are not Airstars are not Lagunas. They just look similar and can perform similar.

[hahnmeister]

Also, at the time Klaus started the Red's, the Lagunas werent even saltwater safe, nor did they have the tangential outlet. Over the years, the Lagunas have changed, and now have tangential outlets like the Red Dragons, and are also saltwater safe.

[xinumaster]

Can that laguna 2400 be bought here in the US? any link where I can get them?

[hahnmeister]

"Google and ye shall find"... lol.

You can find it all sorts of places... azponds.com for instance.

The best prices I have found are on ebay and foster and smith (they sell them at wholesale price actually). I got a 4200 on ebay for $120.

[xinumaster]

Okay I found your other thread http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...25&pagenumber=1

[xinumaster]

I see, the pump is encapsulated in a ball casing that is why I don't recognize the pump compare to the picture you posted.

[hahnmeister]

ATB is not working on a 1500 motor for the 'Normal' Skimmer. As it turns out, the 2400 is huge (enough for an XXL no doubt, I know they can get over 4000lph), and the 2000 (same motorblock, but Anton restricted it to 1.25" to cut the output) is still too much, as its enough to run the XL with.

So next up is the 1500 and 900 (maybe 1300, slightly larger 900 is all it is...). The 1500 is very similar in looks (when you open it up) to the mini Red Dragons. It should make a very solid performer. I never had a chance to work with this one myself... I didnt even think I had one until I looked in the basement last night. From the specs and size, etc... it should hit the 1600lph mark w/o a problem... good for the 'Medium'.

The problem with the 600-900-and 1300 is that they have that shaft that needs support in the volute/intake... like an eheim.

Hmmm... I have been wondering lately... eheim does have a 12v DC 1048/46 pump... its used with computer liquid cooling...

http://www.aqua-computer.de/content/pumpen.htm
http://www.aqua-computer.de/images/as_xt/as_xt1.png

It outperforms the AC versions it is based on, and runs dead siltent (I had the innovatek on a previous computer).

http://www.webshop-innovatek.de/assets/s2dmain.html?http://www.webshop-innovatek.de/

They arent for internal use, so dont even think about them for skimmer pumps... but how hard would it be for eheim to make a DC version, submersable, of the 1260/62/64 then? Rather than topping out at the normal 1800rpm, they could ramp it up to 4000rpm, no doubt. 2000lph of air to go with. Time to call eheim and see what they can do...

[CruzinKim]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11156268#post11156268 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kdblove_99
I'm gonna need some popcorn by the time this is over. Those pumps do look identical in everyway. There is no way a RD pump can just be a Laguna modded, can it? they sell for that much?wow! Do you have your popcorn & coke in hand? :eek2:

[Aussie Koi]

Any follow up ?
Regards
Tim