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View Full Version : Reefkeeping, Oh the Irony


ReefBuddha
08/31/2007, 10:27 AM
I posted this rant in an ongoing thread on the Responsible Reefkeeping forum, but I would also be interested in responses from the masses who - for whatever reason - avoid that particular area of the site.
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let's be pragmatic...

The marine ornamental trade is - in essence - a for-profit exploitation of a priceless natural resource to feed the superficial whims of consumer masses. We should not fool ourselves into thinking there is anything 'good' about this trade from the perspective of natural habitats.

Education is not a justifiable excuse for supporting the trade. There are too many less destructive sources of awareness like public aquariums, documentaries on television, etc.

Businesses involved in the trade are there for profit, not ethics. At the end of the day, business owners will exploit reef life to pay the rent, period. Many of them have to live in denial because they might have difficulty looking in the mirror if they chose to face the inconvenient realities of their chosen profession. No amount of denial, deception, or misinformation changes this reality.

We are all hypocrites by merely participating and supporting the marine ornamental trade. Humans often claim to cherish or value things when in reality they wish to possess and consequently exploit. The very least we can do is stop kidding ourselves and show our peers and the businesses we frequent that trade reform and sustainability are a high priority.

If the number of animals killed by this trade was an instantly updated number on the internet(that's an idea) we would all have trouble looking in the mirror and talking about the next fish or coral we can't wait to consume.

I myself have killed countless animals since my first salt water tank was set up in 1983. In 2005 I experienced a shift in perspective that has lead me to step back. I have not bought any reef life in a few years now, and cannot see doing so until I find a way to do it more responsibly, and in a way that gives back to the natural habitats we claim to cherish but obviously exploit.

Conservation and sustainability should be much more prominent subjects on this board and in every LFS. Wouldn't it be better if your LFS and the rest of the trade was honest about its impact and maybe chose to devote a portion of profits directly towards reef conservation efforts?

Every time we hit that checkout counter at the LFS or the checkout page on the internet, we should remind ourselves of the uncomfortable realities of our behavior. If we choose to support the trade and exploit this resource, fine, but I think we should all stop kidding ourselves/eachother and pretending that we do it because we cherish/value reef life.

----------------------------------------
We become reefkeepers because we claim to fall in love with reef life, but if we truly valued natural reef habitats, wouldn't we seek to preserve them rather than possess and exploit? What does this contradiction say about us? How many of us are honest enough to face the uncomfortable truths about the marine ornamental industry, and the growing list of animals we're responsible for destroying in our quest for an ideal captive reef?

More importantly how can we own up to our actions and make up for the inherent irony of our decision to support the trade?

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/files/sumber_kima_fish_day_1_162.jpg

LobsterOfJustice
08/31/2007, 11:01 AM
I wholeheartedly agree. I have been at a crossroads the past few months, and I can not justify this hobby to myself. I have come to the conclusion that humans, myself included, are selfish. I want this, so I will have it. I have the power to do that. It is a shame that our hobby involves lives though. When a model car breaks, no life is lost. We are basically participating is something similar to slavery, but with lower life forms. We take them for our enjoyment. Every time I have a fish die, I can not help but think that if this fish had never been collected, it would still be alive. The boxes we keep these fish in are preposterously small as well. Even a chromis in a 210 gallon is overstocked. Think about the area this fish covers in it's lifetime. Let alone something like a tang or an angelfish.

I'm going to get a little philosophical here.

I have also been wondering what makes one life more valuable than the next. In theory, they should all be equal. But would you give up your life if you could bring those buckets of dead fish above back? Probably not. Would you give up the life of a person you have never met, on the other side of the world? would you give up their life for 1000 fish? 10,000? 100,000?

I have a deep love and respect for the oceans and the life they hold. I am in college studying to be a marine biologist. I hope someday to not have a reef tank, and instead be able to dive on the reefs instead. Think about the progress we could make if everyone took all the money they spent on their tanks, and donated it to a reef conservation program. Thats probably about $10,000 from me alone.

However, I personally have learned very much from my tanks. I understand interactions between organisms, their environmental requirements, etc. I know why too much CO2 in the oceans is a bad thing. I know what causes coral bleaching. I know what corals can tolerate, and what they can not. In three years for my senior thesis, I plan to do some educational research and experiments involving my tanks, or new ones I will set up specifically for the purpose. After my college years I hope to focus on breeding many fish species which are not currently aquacultured, to help stop the demand on the oceans. As far as I know, no tangs, anthias, few angelfish, etc are captive bread. It is basically clownfish, some gobies, some dottybacks, maybe a few other misc fish.

But, alas, most people's tanks are not this useful. The are around for a few years, enough time to take a few more lbs of live rock out of the oceans, kill more fish, corals, and anemones, and then be forgotten.

We are participating in "the rape of the natural world".

seapug
08/31/2007, 11:04 AM
True. That's why people should buy captive bred clownfish, pay a couple bucks extra for MAC certified products whenever possible and support like this guy:

hhttp://video.on.nytimes.com/?fr_sto...41bccd4f0852815

Which would mean buying livestock from stores he supplies. Retail trends and practices follow the money.

ReefBuddha
08/31/2007, 11:22 AM
MAC was good in theory. Unfortunately, MAC has apparently proven to be completely illegitimate. Just take one look at the Industry Forum (http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=35).

Fish Filet
08/31/2007, 11:51 AM
Good thread.

I agree with you to the extent that steps must be taken to insure that in our maddening desire to collect the best specimens of this and that kind, we do not, in the process, destroy a whole another world. Educating the masses, stricter laws on collection, and creation of more protected zones are just some of the things that may be implemented in order to give our reefs a fighting chance of survival. I also think, however, that it's naive to expect from the general public and even the scientific community the kind of behavior you'd expect from a responsible reefkeeper, though I think the term "responsible reefkeeper" is in itself an oxymoron.

I think a balance must be found where the human need to "learn" and "educate" itself can be achieved without having to significantly damage the very object upon whose survival the future of this planet may very well depend. Ornamental fish now being a billion dollar industry, it is unrealistic, and even more unethical to try and limit the means by which hundreds and thousands of people earn their living.

We may sit here in our air conditioned living rooms and enjoy the serenity and beauty of our tanks, and in the process we may begin to realize the cost of this beauty in our homes not in dollar terms but on a more grandeur scale, and we may then sit up and write up a thread on Reef Central about the hobby being unethical and all the negatives associated with it. But the reality of life for poor men maybe in the carribean, maybe somewhere far off the coast of Southern India, maybe somewhere in Fiji or maybe somewhere near Samatra, whose survival depends on collecting a few fish a day so that eight hungry mouths sitting in a straw hut, waiting to be fed for that day, can be fed with the money he's made by selling off his catch, is an entirely different story. Trust me, I have seen it.

So do we take away their sole means of survival by banning collection in certain areas, declaring them reef sanctuaries etc or do we sacrifice the poor man's present for our future? There are no easy answers, but I will be pondering this as I head over to my LFS to check out these wild caught Moorish Idols. The owner tells me he's received about 20 of them and if I bought two I could have another one for half the price :p

ReefBuddha
08/31/2007, 11:58 AM
I swat mosquitoes and I eat meat. The destruction of life is not something that can realistically be avoided. Even vegans and Buddhists kill microscopic life by the millions.

Nature is neither cruel nor kind, it is simply indifferent. Sometimes the water buffalo and her calf get stuck in mud and are slowly eaten alive by lions, and sometimes the lion cubs are trampled by buffalo or slaughtered by competing males. It's a war for survival out there and suffering is unavoidable. But as the top of the food chain and the most influential organism on the planet I think we need to be pragmatic, act responsibly and sustainably, and work to promote biodiversity.

What I have trouble with is the denial/hypocrisy that is rampant in this hobby, and the non-sustainable exploitation for pleasure of a priceless natural resource. I just wish hobbyists and LFS's would be honest with themselves and each other. I think that's a good first step towards a more responsible MO trade.

If reef life was invasive and at plague proportions I'd buy reef-jerky. I do support the culling of crown-of-thorns starfish for example, since they are at plague proportions and are wiping out corals in Australian waters and reducing biodiversity. (but we probably caused that plague due to nutrient runnoff in Australia, etc.)

ReefBuddha
08/31/2007, 12:03 PM
great feedback, thanks all for taking the time to contribute.

I agree we cannot simply erase the sole means of survival for indigenous south pacific people, but a more responsible and sustainable approach is needed for resource utilization, or else that means of survival and the resource itself will disappear eventually regardless.

seapug
08/31/2007, 12:06 PM
I'll look at that thread. I'm assuming its examples of problems which no doubt, many are true, but despite it's shortcomings, if there's no "theory" then there's going to be no practice. Has to start somewhere.

The fact is the industry exists and it's not going to go away. A small number of people saying it's "bad" and refusing to participate in it won't change it when there are a constantly growing number of people who do. If anything, there is more captive breeding of aquarium livestock going on now than ever before, fueled solely by the increased demand. In a way, growing participation in the hobby can decrease reliance on wild collected livestock.

As sad as that picture you posted is, two buckets of dead fish is nothing compared to the number of incidentals that die in the nets of commerical fishing boats. It doesn't make it "ok," but there is an issue of perception at play.

Fish Filet
08/31/2007, 12:10 PM
Alright.

Mark75
08/31/2007, 12:13 PM
Would the above buckets had less impact on you if they were smelt? Why is it worse to collect a VERY few colorful fish than it is to collect HUGE amounts of less colorful fish for eating? The truth is the aquarium trade has muchless impact on the oceans than commercial fishing which is stripping the oceans at a rate they cannot replenish. I eat fish so I can not say the Clown in my aquarium is worse off than the Tuna in a can in my cabinet!

Der_Iron_Chef
08/31/2007, 12:28 PM
I agree, for the most part. Would I rather purchase a tank-bred fish than a wild-caught fish? Absolutely. I've been giving this much thought recently, and I wish there were a way to know--for sure--whether a fish at any given LFS was actually tank-bred.

I agree with Mark75, in regards to commercial fishing for food, as well. The savagery with which sharks are being hunted and killed as well. These are all just symptoms of a bigger problem: mankind is selfish and arrogant. We are selfish enough to think that we deserve whatever we want, despite the cost, and we are arrogant enough to believe that we can make it all better.

ReefBuddha
08/31/2007, 12:39 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10675775#post10675775 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seapug
I'll look at that thread. I'm assuming its examples of problems which no doubt, many are true, but despite it's shortcomings, if there's no "theory" then there's going to be no practice. Has to start somewhere.


Everyone should see that forum. It's dedicated to the industry behind the hobby, and you'll see a LONG history of failure by MAC there. Most recently a reorganization and a new Director of MAC has been addressed. MAC Interim Director Thread (http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=108485), An open letter of request to MAC on Indo/Phil by F. Cruz (http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=109621), There are many more as well.




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10675775#post10675775 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seapug
As sad as that picture you posted is, two buckets of dead fish is nothing compared to the number of incidentals that die in the nets of commerical fishing boats. It doesn't make it "ok," but there is an issue of perception at play.

The picture was for impact, yes. I'm aware that the MO industry is a small part, but it's our part. I'm not trying to downplay the significant impacts of commercial fishing, agricultural runnof etc.

aninjaatemyshoe
08/31/2007, 01:17 PM
First of all, let me say that I completely agree with the notion of moving towards sustainable practices and, even more importantly, moving towards good captive breeding/aquaculture programs. However, I do have a couple alternative views:

-I don't agree with the notion that we should be considering between preserving the natural resources of this planet and dealing with out guilt over how people in third world nations are living. Placing environmental regulations in protected areas, while often hypocritical, is essential despite how it might affect the livelihoods of people who depend upon exploiting the resources to make a living. Leave it unchecked and what happens? People will devour the resources to ensure their own survival and prosperity. But what about future generations? How are they to make a living without those resources? It just doesn't work. It is a very unfortunate reality that many people in areas next to reefs must take so much from the reefs to eek out a living. However, we must strive towards sustainable practices or else we are doomed.

-Reefbuddha, you have many good points regarding the rampant hypocrisy in this hobby. I myself cannot deny that I am part of the problem. Yet, at the same time, I feel that your confrontational approach is not really going to gain much headway. To relate my own experiences, I have increasingly been going towards minimizing my impact as much as I can. First of all, I have not bought a fish in over a year. I'm only really interested in three types of fish in this hobby, clowns, seahorses and bangaii cardinalfish, all of which can be found as captive bred specimens. Luckily, it is rather easy and commonplace to obtain captive propagated corals from fellow reefers and even LFS stores. In reality, I've spent most of my time and money on equipment and diy'ing rather than buying new livestock. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back here, but I do feel I stand out from the people that rush in and try to fill their tanks with as many fish they can squeeze regardless of proper care or ethical collection. As I see it there are two types in this hobby: those that are engrossed in the complex nature of their livestock and spend hours researching before they buy something and those that just want some pretty fishies in their living room and go out and try and find the very easiest and quickest way to accomplish this. IMO, we should be encouraging the former and discouraging the latter. It does no good to alienate everyone who likes reef keeping when you're striving towards more responsibility and ethical practices. The fact is that people would much rather hear about where they can find livestock that has been ethically propagated than about how horrible they are for having an aquarium. Personally, I'm not going to stop reefing. I'd really just like to an end to the more irresponsible practices.

Fish Filet
08/31/2007, 01:23 PM
I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.

aninjaatemyshoe
08/31/2007, 01:25 PM
"mankind is selfish and arrogant. We are selfish enough to think that we deserve whatever we want, despite the cost, and we are arrogant enough to believe that we can make it all better."

Is it not arrogance to feel that you can sum up mankind in a sentence? As far as selfishness goes, I'd agree with that one to an extent. But if you think about it, what animal on earth is not selfish? As I see it, we just can't afford to continue on ignorant and stupid paths if we want to keep on the selfish path of prosperity.

RichConley
08/31/2007, 02:06 PM
Do you honestly believe that public aquariums are a better means of education than this hobby? More breakthroughs have been made by "hobbiests" than public aquariums.


Also, your average public aquarium kills more fish than 10,000 hobbiests.

Musho3210
08/31/2007, 02:15 PM
i hearby vow to not get anything else live from the wild. Any more corals i get will be aquacultured/frags. Any more fish i get will be tank raised or tank bred. And i will do my best to look for tank bred invertebrate. It is possible, i hear people saying: my cleaner shrimp has eggs or my hermits bred etc.

And vegetarian stuff, we are omnivores, our stomachs, digestive tracks and the vitamins nutrients we need come from BOTH vegetables and meat. We were made to eat meat, and thats what im gonna do.

King-Kong
08/31/2007, 02:18 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10675826#post10675826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mark75
Would the above buckets had less impact on you if they were smelt? Why is it worse to collect a VERY few colorful fish than it is to collect HUGE amounts of less colorful fish for eating? The truth is the aquarium trade has muchless impact on the oceans than commercial fishing which is stripping the oceans at a rate they cannot replenish. I eat fish so I can not say the Clown in my aquarium is worse off than the Tuna in a can in my cabinet!

Exactly. Anyone who has even seen a FRACTION OF A FRACTION what by-catch adds up to would laugh at those two tiny buckets. Infact, i'd say theyre even less than a drop in a bucket :)

seapug
08/31/2007, 02:33 PM
Hey ReefBhudda, what kind of wrasse is in your bucket on the right? :lol:

Sorry for the tasteless humor, couldn't resist. In all seriousness, based on what people have posted, it's pretty obvious most people on this board are pretty well aware of these issues.

owenb01
08/31/2007, 02:53 PM
Yeah, I'm aware. I see where you're coming from, but I'm not going to stop buying anything gleaned from the ocean.

Kannin
08/31/2007, 03:29 PM
ReefBuddha... This post has made me want to go home and take some anti-depressants!!! To call us all superficial hypocrites and show us a bucket of dead clownfish as a way of trying to make everyone fell as quilty as you is pretty crappy. It appears that most overyone agrees with you to a certain extent... so far, as do I. I believe that we should buy O.R.A and captive bred, but lets not make everybody start crying. I didn't join this forum so that you could come along and pee in my cereal.

Fish Filet
08/31/2007, 03:45 PM
If it weren't for that movie, those two buckets wouldn't have nearly as powerful an impact.

ReefBuddha
08/31/2007, 05:45 PM
Kannin,
Although I sympathize with your expression of how awful it all sounds and makes you feel, your response appears to be an example of the casual denial we should all work against, and exactly why acknowledging reality is important. If facing the realities of your chosen behavior makes you uncomfortable, perhaps a change in behavior is something to consider. If a pragmatic perspective of our hobby gives you a sense of depression and injustice, then maybe it's a cause worth fighting for. But don't blame the messenger just because he exposes a harsh reality you'd rather pretend does not exist.

I realize I don't utilize sugar coating, but honestly I don't think it's an issue to be sweetened. From a psychologically analytical perspective though, it's certainly interesting to see the different ways in which people react to uncomfortable realities about their chosen activities.

Again, the ability to cite other point-source and non-point sources of ocean exploitation such as by-catch or agricultural runoff does not in any way negate the points I'm making, although it may act as a feel-better technique and help people sleep better.

to the person who claimed that public aquariums are more destructive and less justified than the marine ornamental trade in terms of education, i have to respectfully disagree and would ask you to think about that stance a bit more.

Thanks everyone for the input/feedback. I think it's important to periodically address these unfortunate realities less we get too caught up in the more superficial topics of the hobby, as is so often the case.

Hope everyone has a good holiday weekend.

:)

Kannin
08/31/2007, 05:46 PM
I might just flush the whole thing and get a lizard. Oh... wait! Maybe they're being persicuted too. Am I responsible for a bucket of dead schnauzers somewhere???

Oh and by the way... How many whale sharks did the Georgia Aquarium kill this year??? Are they a less destructive source of awareness??? You make me want to go out and buy another clown!

JER-Z
08/31/2007, 06:07 PM
i guess you don't eat fish? As far as corals go, mine are all aquacultured and most of my rock was not "live".

I don't feel guilty at all...

aninjaatemyshoe
08/31/2007, 06:09 PM
Reefbuddha, I know that getting on your high-horse seems like a great way to change peoples attitude, but if anything it is just going to polarize things. Reefing isn't going to stop anymore than people are going to stop eating seafood. The fact is that what is needed is people like you to direct your energy towards organizing things so we have access to livestock that is collected ethically or better yet captive bred. In other words, a constructive attitude is needed instead of a cynical counter-culturist one. Talking down to people and treating them as if they are children in a self-deluded wonderland is just going to cause them to ignore you. What is even more screwy about it is that with some positive direction the reefcentral community could actually do its share to help change things. At the least, we could be directing peoples attitudes toward collecting species that are ethically collected.

Kannin
08/31/2007, 06:25 PM
Reef Buddha. I do appreciate your psycho analysis... but, what I was really trying to say, was... Please keep it in the forum you originally posted this rant, instead of smacking us in the face with it. Many of us in this forum just want learn how to kill aiptasia and see pictures of other reef tanks.

Here's mine:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w172/Kannin_photos/100_0926.jpg

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w172/Kannin_photos/100_0692.jpg

Here's my clown who, by the way, narrowly escaped the bucket.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w172/Kannin_photos/100_0857.jpg

Let's see your's... Turn that frown upsidedown!

lakwriter
08/31/2007, 06:41 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10678169#post10678169 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aninjaatemyshoe
Reefbuddha, I know that getting on your high-horse seems like a great way to change peoples attitude, but if anything it is just going to polarize things. Reefing isn't going to stop anymore than people are going to stop eating seafood. The fact is that what is needed is people like you to direct your energy towards organizing things so we have access to livestock that is collected ethically or better yet captive bred. In other words, a constructive attitude is needed instead of a cynical counter-culturist one. Talking down to people and treating them as if they are children in a self-deluded wonderland is just going to cause them to ignore you. What is even more screwy about it is that with some positive direction the reefcentral community could actually do its share to help change things. At the least, we could be directing peoples attitudes toward collecting species that are ethically collected.

Thank you for this reply...

With all due respect, I'm not sure what you think you're going to accomplish with your thread, except to make yourself feel better that you made an environmental statement. There seem to be a number of these "we're killing our oceans" threads lately. I think we're all aware of the impact that our hobby, and seafood fishing, and all endeavors that involve the ocean, are contributing to the demise of millions of creatures - both in the oceans and on land. We are not deluded hobbiests. You're not the first to tell us all this. I think we, as a group, are probably more conscious and more actively trying to protect our ocean life than the average person. After this post, I am going to stop posting replies to posts such as this. I don't think they are generating any new discussion.

I do my best to do what I can...I compulsively recycle, buy recylced products, purchase seafood that I believe has been responsively raised/harvested (see Monterey Bay Aquarium Seafood Watch program, I try to purchase tank-bred livestock whenever possible. Try posting some suggestions that people can follow to help. Simply posting what you yourself describe as a rant is not saving the oceans. But I do appreciate that you are concerned about the environment. I wish more people were more concerned.

vessxpress1
08/31/2007, 07:04 PM
I think captive propagation of clownfish is booming. I'd venture to say you'd be more likely to find a tank raised clown at any given LFS than a wild caught one nowadays. A lot of people are doing it and it's just cheaper. They've also just recently been able to breed some types of Angelfish on a limited basis which is sweet.

They're a long way from being able to breed tangs in captivity though. They may never be able to. I think their best bet would be to create a large sanctuary in the open ocean somewhere and limit the number taken. They spawn in huge schools and let all the eggs get carried out to open sea with the currents. Many get eaten during the event. Nobody's even sure what triggers their spawning. There is the typical speculation of moon phases and water temps though.

As far as coral and anemones, I think it's getting FAR easier now to find just about anything you want, tank raised, than anything coming from the ocean. Both my BTAs are splits from people's tanks. Many of my corals were frags from local people. It's just easier and cheaper. Captive raised xenia, zoos, mushrooms, SPS....just about everything but the rarest of the rare abounds in this hobby.

If indeed there is such a thing as global warming happening right now, and we're going to lose the reefs in 30 years, I'd much rather have them collect all the aussie acans, zoos, SPS, LPS people can get their hands on. If global warming does exist, be it man made, nature or a combination of both, there's NO WAY we can stop it. We may as well take what we can get now, spread the corals out in captivity and hopefully future generations will be able to enjoy what would then be extinct in the wild. Live coral may someday be a very valuable asset. Who knows? If it all gets lost in the wild, it's gone. If 10 people have tanks set up and 8 crash, those 8 can still all be replenished by the 2 tanks remaining.

Of course the actual numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands so I'd say the future of reefkeeping is probably pretty safe by captive propagation methods alone.

If the wild resources run out, the only ones I see that mainly will lose out would be the fly-by- night reefers that give it a try for a few months and then throw everything away because it all died, because they never had a passion for the hobby. Which I'm not too overly concerned with.

There's always somebody out there selling off their entire reef and all livestock. I suspect it would take a LOOONG time before those options ever ran out. I suspect Tangs and most Angelfish would be a thing of the past though.

I'd also have to agree that I'm MUCH more concerned with commercial fishing practices than collection for the hobby. The worlds population just keeps exploding. More and more mouths to feed. Many coastal communities in Africa rely on the ocean for their only source of protein. There are huge ships dragging nets a half mile wide, out in the open ocean that catch anything and everything they can get every day. It all gets loaded on a conveyor belt, sorted through and then ground up. Most of what gets thrown back is dead.

If there's money in it and it's food for people, it will be exploited.

At the pace we're going, the world will not be able to sustain us anyway in another few hundred years I suspect. Somebody's going to lose out eventually.

tbar
08/31/2007, 07:05 PM
Remember in that movie when that Cuda killed all Nemo's siblings

Mykayel
08/31/2007, 08:01 PM
In reality, we probably do more harm by the elctricity it takes to run our tanks than the colection of the specimens do. Not saying we shouldn't try to buy tank raised fish and corals.

A simple question Reeferbuda, what's your real username? Or was it to shameful to bring up a topic like this without using another name? Or are you on reefcentral to just stir up trouble?

owenb01
08/31/2007, 08:02 PM
Yeah, barracudas are evil, they kill little nemos, they should all be destroyed. I hope none of you PETA guys wear gold jewelry; did you know that in 2000 a cyanide spill in Romania left 2000 TONNES of fish dead in Hungary alone? If you wear gold, you support the slaughter of fish. Wal-mart sells gold, if you shop there, you hate nature and global warming is your fault. So is the war in Iraq.

owenb01
08/31/2007, 08:10 PM
Just to clarify, the cyanide spill was from a gold mine.

Musho3210
08/31/2007, 08:12 PM
cmon guys, lets just blame bush and politics.

LobsterOfJustice
08/31/2007, 08:23 PM
Guys, I dont think you are getting it. The OP is not saying that this is the largest threat to our oceans. He is pointing out to hypocrisy of our hobby. If you truly loved and respected these animals, wouldn't you rather them be "happy" in their natural environment?

And, no, I dont eat seafood :)

smatter
08/31/2007, 08:25 PM
owenb01, what's up with the Desert Fox portrait?

smithcreek
08/31/2007, 09:25 PM
Great googly moogly, I've never seen so much pathetic navel gazing in one thread in my life. Reefbuddha, if you want to get rid of your tank then just do it, but posting this drivel to soothe your guilty conscious is lame.

owenb01
08/31/2007, 10:15 PM
Rommel was awesome, too bad him and Patton didn't have the chance to fight it out. I'm surprised somebody else recognized him.:thumbsup:

rtstrat01
08/31/2007, 10:26 PM
first off, reefbuddha, how about next time you get this wild hair up your you know what, you start by cancelling your membership to reefcentral..................do i feel bad that i have killed, well lets see........................about 4 clowns, a couple triggers, like four of them dory things, like 8 seahorses, and god knows how many inverts, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, not really, am i in denial about it, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, not really, hey i had ham for dinner, and a burger at the broncos game last night, am i in denial about how i feel about eating the meat, again, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, although the heartburn kinda sucked, i see what your saying, but pick a better audience, if the raging hippies in the responsible reef keeping forum did not respond how you wanted to should have been a sign to leave it alone. go make a pretty sign and stand infront of your LFS, you might have more luck there.

I move for two things, first off, this forum is not intended for this, i hope the rc staff will step up and remove this thread, and the rest like it that arent in the right forum..........................

second, hey kannin, i see you only have one clown, lets get a group order on some clowns going, i need another, so lets start a group buy for clowns lost of clowns, maybe three or four buckets full of them.........................................reefbuddha, dont you worry, i will not loose any sleep tonight over the many souls of nemos brothers and sisters that are lost, my only grief is that the stars of finding nemo 2 through like 20 could have been in those buckets, and thats a true lose to society as we know it, now americas kids will never know the orange fish we all love....................................hey i have a third now, man when you get going you just keep going, lets go to the cattle ranches and ask the rancher if he feels bad when he puts his livelyhood on that truck to be slaughtered. hey reefbuddha, i know this town in colorado, its called boulder, they have a few more slots for extremist like you, you should join them i am sure they will sit down and cry with you over those pictures, hey i scrolled past them like five times, and on the fifth time, i finally thought to myself, what a looser this buddha guy must be, life sucks man, things die, but you know what thats life man. dont get me wrong, if the worlds reefs are lost, that will be a great loss to every human, i want my kids kids to have the same love for the coral reefs, but dude, my tank in my living room is what has given me a true love for them.................................................so back to my first comments, next time go to the top and just cancel your membership, and hey just know that i will be in the forums trying to make my tank look like the tank of the months this wekk, and hey kannin, i must say..................NICE TANK.

PrivateJoker64
08/31/2007, 10:27 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10679582#post10679582 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by owenb01
Rommel was awesome, too bad him and Patton didn't have the chance to fight it out. I'm surprised somebody else recognized him.:thumbsup:
I did as well. But I wasn't going to ask.

Theomi
08/31/2007, 10:28 PM
As to us/i not cherish/value the life of the fish in my fish tank (and other animals for that matter) = What a load of Bull, i bet that most people keeping reef tanks (and again other animals) cherish those creatures more then to only see it as an item that can be possesed!
And i also believe that those creatures have a better life in terms of feeding, predatory issues and long lives...

As to the issue of giving back to nature = I totally agree, we must give back what we can to preserve our beautiful world...
My good old father worked as a lumberjack/woodcutter (difference?) for many years and when they cut down a old tree they had to plant a new one right after, in an effort to preserve the forrest for the next generation...

Just my 2 cents

BTW you with the Rommel avatar are you an nazi sympathizer or do you just think that Rommel was a great man?
Only asking because im curious, no hard feelings towards you or your avatar :)

LobsterOfJustice
08/31/2007, 10:55 PM
Wow, I can not believe the kind of responses this is getting. People get angry when they are uncomfortable and their "status-quo" and consious are shaken or challenged.

rtstrat, that is the saddest post I have seen is a long time. If anyone here will be leaving RC soon, I'm guessing it would be you.

I would like to ask the moderators that instead of locking this thread (going down the toilet fast), that the inappropriate posts be removed, and the posters warned.

rtstrat01
08/31/2007, 11:02 PM
well lobster, sorry if you feel its sad, but i feel the attempts made by many to try and undermind the hobby should be stopped, if buddha, and you, feel we are doing such harm to the reefs then be the first to stop, dont try and make others feel bad as you continue with the hobby.

chrisjet
08/31/2007, 11:08 PM
I know a guy who owns a fish store. He tells me he will hear people swear that they only buy aqua-cultered fish and frags. But if he has 2 of the exact fish or coral and one was cultured and the other taken from the ocean. Cultered being $60 and ocean caught $40 - guess which one the guy buys. There are ton of people who lie to themselves. I dont lie to myself, I know it is morally wrong. But I like it and think it looks cool - just like everyone else. When people tell me that they are in it for education - that is a joke! ALso, well said rtstrat

LobsterOfJustice
08/31/2007, 11:10 PM
You know, up until now, I wanted to make reef organisms available in a responsible, sustainable way to the hobby. This thread is making me want to simply direct all the focus and energy into "undermining the hobby" and making it unavaiable altogether.

People with no respect for life should not be allowed to have lives in their control. Period.

chrisjet
08/31/2007, 11:17 PM
lobsterof justice your a dork, go join PETA!

owenb01
08/31/2007, 11:21 PM
lobsterboy, don't you have a campfire to find so you can sing kumbaya with your PETA friends?

chrisjet
08/31/2007, 11:24 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10679856#post10679856 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by owenb01
lobsterboy, don't you have a campfire to find so you can sing kumbaya with your PETA friends?



LOL - thats the funniest thing i have heard all day ! This thread should prob be closed because it pretty much SUCKS!

CaptNemo
08/31/2007, 11:26 PM
Hey reefbuddha,
Thanks for the post, you have my support.

Honestly, I don't have the power to help the world or try to change those people's mind. But i will do my part by taking care of my fishes and corals better so they don't die. Therefore i won't be buying more fishes and help destroy the ocean.

Keep up the good work.

rtstrat01
08/31/2007, 11:27 PM
its not a lack of respect lobster, i dont just kill the fish, the list i provided was over like three years, and hey undermind the hobby, but do it elsewhere, i understand bringing out the issues with the hobby, and so does rc, thats why they have a responsible reefkeeping forum, and hey if we did not have laws and regulations i to would be there fighting for it, but you know what, we already have laws inplace, so lets not get all crazy here, you cant change the world, and if anything we need lfs owners who are there for education, keeping the moms and dads from buying the nemos and doris for there betta bowls so there kids have these fish, not realizing the care they need.

Fish Filet
08/31/2007, 11:35 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10678898#post10678898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
Guys, I dont think you are getting it. The OP is not saying that this is the largest threat to our oceans. He is pointing out to hypocrisy of our hobby. If you truly loved and respected these animals, wouldn't you rather them be "happy" in their natural environment?

And, no, I dont eat seafood :)

Please donate your tank and all those gadgets and wizardry you have listed in your signature to a public institution where it can be put to better use like ... say ... uh educating the masses and helping them to realize and appreciate the true beauty of our oceans out of which we kill thousands and thousands of nemos and dorys on a daily basis.

aquarius77
08/31/2007, 11:35 PM
I love sushi, covered in smelt and eel sauce,mmmm.

Seriously, this thread does not belong here. PETA members should be banned, kumbaya.

rtstrat01
08/31/2007, 11:42 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10679923#post10679923 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fish Filet
Please donate your tank and all those gadgets and wizardry you have listed in your signature to a public institution where it can be put to better use like ... say ... uh educating the masses and helping them to realize and appreciate the true beauty of our oceans out of which we kill thousands and thousands of nemos and dorys on a daily basis.

good point, i call dibs on the mh, and hey lobster, its funny how your like exactly who buddha is directing everything too, your the hypocrate here, here your saying hey its unhuman haveing these creatures in our tanks, but yet, from what i gather from your signature, you seem to have a really nice setup, so go ahead continue on standing next to buddha, but know here, your what he is directing all this towards. give it

owenb01
08/31/2007, 11:52 PM
Buddha and lobster, how can we say one life is worth more than another? I personally don't mind killing a little now and then, but you guys obviously do. That being the case, I don't know how you two sleep at night knowing how many microbes you killed when you took a shower in the morning. Oh, silly me, hippies don't bathe.

Well, I've gotta go, maybe we can chat some more after I go club some seal pups.

Fish Filet
09/01/2007, 12:01 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10678898#post10678898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
Guys, I dont think you are getting it. The OP is not saying that this is the largest threat to our oceans. He is pointing out to hypocrisy of our hobby. If you truly loved and respected these animals, wouldn't you rather them be "happy" in their natural environment?

And, no, I dont eat seafood :)

Yes, and while you're at it, Mr. Justice, I'd like for you to let us all know what you plan on doing with all those SPS corals that would be "happy" in their "natural environment."

Also, I'd like to know if you've ever had any of the following symptoms:

* upset stomach
* vomiting
* stomach pain
* belching
* constipation
* dry mouth
* increased urination
* loss of appetite
* metallic taste

If your answer is yes to any single one of them, then more likely than not you have taken a medication for it which contains calcium carbonate. I am sure you realize that a fair percentage of CaC03 is extracted by mining or quarrying coral reef rocks. So, please, read the label carefully next time you feel like popping a tylenol or two. :lol:

rtstrat01
09/01/2007, 12:02 AM
owen, your a true nazi, lol, i love it..................................j/k, about the nazi part, anyhow, thats some funny stuff. i hate hippies, all they want to do is try and point fingers at people, thats okay, tomorrow, i will get into my big SUV, goto the store and buy tons of meat, everything from beef, to poultry, then i am going to buy some fish, i am leaning toward a rabbitfish, but i dont think they are not tank bred, oh no.............how will i ever live with myself. maybe i will just have to cook a big steak and drink my sorrow away as i watch my new loittle fishy swim around my little tank where he will be feed the same time every day and wake up to see me stare at him the rest of his life.

it would be one thing if i made him pay rent or earn his food, i mean really. its the good life

Fish Filet
09/01/2007, 12:07 AM
And for future references concerning this thread, please refer to my avatar.

rtstrat01
09/01/2007, 12:16 AM
ha ha, i was going to comment on that, lol, i love that to, fitting for this kinda thread

jthao
09/01/2007, 01:27 AM
I love this thread!!!!! Very Very entertaining!!! I feel so bad that my black tang and sohal tang died, because I paid soooo much for them!!!! I do believe that we should try very hard to keep our fishes and corals alive so we don't have to buy new ones because damn....... this hobby is expensive!! I understand the environmental issues and how humans are arrogant and selfish but what the heck.... we're part of the animal kingdom. It's survival of the fittest, a lion will eat all the wilderbeast if he can catch them all!!! But he had to work in order to catch his food so it's fair, well I worked two weeks just to buy a freakin' tang!!! I think I deserve to have him damn it!!!!

Theomi
09/01/2007, 08:07 AM
I once saw a PETA campain saying dont cut the wool of sheep!!!!
I think that is just stupid as hell, if you dont trim of the sheeps wool in the summer they can die from overheating (i know this since my parrents have had a sheep farm)

Sorry for the OT thing but saw someone say PETA and just had to say what i think of them....

Also i love sushi and a good steak (not togheter)

owenb01
09/01/2007, 08:48 AM
Anybody got some good recipes for blackened clarion angel, I'm gettin' kinda hungry?

LobsterOfJustice
09/01/2007, 08:59 AM
We were having a good discussion, and then a few people who disagree came in and ruined it for everyone.

All I ask is that you actually read my posts earlier in this thread. I KNOW I AM A HYPOCRITE by having these animals. I'm not going to explain this all again, it was in my first post! But apparently you can read anything longer than a few lines.

rtstrat, let me convert this into your language: YEAH FOOOOOOOOOOOOTBALL BEER TESTOSTERONE!!!!!

...."And this is my daughter's room. We can't open the door, or she might come out. I slide her beef jerky under the door, and tell her she is beautiful and I love her. She is happy and safe in there, nothing can hurt her..."

LobsterOfJustice
09/01/2007, 09:01 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10679856#post10679856 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by owenb01
lobsterboy, don't you have a campfire to find so you can sing kumbaya with your PETA friends?

Don't you have an american nazi party meeting to go to?

Yeah, you guys keep telling yourselves that people who respect life are PETA freaks and hippies. That way you can stay in your comfortable little world.

owenb01
09/01/2007, 09:28 AM
Hey, football, beer and testosterone ROCK!!! By the way, we were having lots of nice discussions in our board here, you're the one that came in and ruined it. There is a forum on here for wierdos like yourself, stay in it.

If you are getting bored with that, you can go here (http://www.savethewhales.org/) , or here (http://www.algore.com/) , you'll fit in just as nicely.

owenb01
09/01/2007, 09:31 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10681050#post10681050 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
Don't you have an american nazi party meeting to go to?

Yeah, you guys keep telling yourselves that people who respect life are PETA freaks and hippies. That way you can stay in your comfortable little world.

By the way, the American Nazi Party is a bunch friggin' retards, I associate myself in no way with people like that. George Lincoln Rockwell was a lunatic.

LobsterOfJustice
09/01/2007, 09:31 AM
Nobody made you read or participate in this thread. It by no means ruined the reef discussion forum.

owenb01
09/01/2007, 09:42 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10681208#post10681208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
Nobody made you read or participate in this thread. It by no means ruined the reef discussion forum.

Yeah, you're right. But I still think you'd fit in better here (http://michaeljacksonforum.com/) .

Free Willy!!!

vessxpress1
09/01/2007, 10:15 AM
Hey RT...

:idea:

undermine >verb 1 erode the base or foundation of (a rock formation). 2 dig or excavate beneath (a building or fortification) so as to make it collapse. 2 weaken gradually or insidiously an idea (or hobby)

Just bothered me. You're good to go now. :thumbsup:

Musho3210
09/01/2007, 11:40 AM
i dont think reef central is the right audience. Most people here try their best at providing the best habitat for their animals, we treat them humanely (this is MOST of us, not ALL) and we care for them, we mourne their deaths and we replace them but the replacement gets the same loving care that the old one did.

There are probably double or TRIPLE the amount of people who keep saltwater fish inhumanely, over stock, use feeder fish, keep killing and replacing without knowing why it died in the first place, torturing, using fish to cycle. These are stupid people, thats what i hate, i hate stupid people. Sure we humane smart reefers have lost a few fish/inverts here and there but we do our best not to. The inhumane ones are the ones you should be pestering since they are depleting our reefs a lot faster than we humane ones are.

rtstrat01
09/01/2007, 11:49 AM
lobster, no no you have it all wrong, its..............YEAH FOOOOOOOOOOOOTBALL BEER TESTOSTERONE, FISHHHHHHHHHHHHH, CORALLLLLL!!!!! i dont know what your trying to get at, but my whole point has been, i understand were your coming from, yes i read your post buddy, and all along my point has been that RC is not your place to rant about your negitive feelings about reef keeping, especially not this forum, you two can goto responsible reefkeeping and sit there and rant about how our hobby is going to destroy the whole wolrd.

owenb01
09/01/2007, 11:59 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10681744#post10681744 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Musho3210
These are stupid people, thats what i hate, i hate stupid people.

I have a fantastic solution for stupid people, my friend....:blown:

rtstrat01
09/01/2007, 12:03 PM
i second that HA HA, i love things that go BOOM too, i should add that to lobsters list of things i understand.

owenb01
09/01/2007, 12:08 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10681845#post10681845 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rtstrat01
i second that HA HA, i love things that go BOOM too, i should add that to lobsters list of things i understand.

I've heard it works well on hippies, too. Hey, lobster boy, you wanna give it a shot?

owenb01
09/01/2007, 12:15 PM
Hey, strat, what's your MOS (former 11b, here)?

rtstrat01
09/01/2007, 12:17 PM
i started 13p, fire direction for the mlrs, but now i am 31b, MP which is pretty much glorified 11bs in humvees, oh and also ied finders.

owenb01
09/01/2007, 12:21 PM
awesome

rtstrat01
09/01/2007, 12:29 PM
how long were you in

LobsterOfJustice
09/01/2007, 12:33 PM
Well well, doesnt this explain something.

Peter Eichler
09/01/2007, 12:35 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10676662#post10676662 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by King-Kong
Exactly. Anyone who has even seen a FRACTION OF A FRACTION what by-catch adds up to would laugh at those two tiny buckets. Infact, i'd say theyre even less than a drop in a bucket :)

The difference is most of those commercial fish are being caught in the open ocean. As of now the open ocean isn't being destroyed from overfishing. The fish populations may be going down and it may be causing other problems. However, cyanide fishing, which is quite common for reef fish collection for this hobby, is destroying reefs. There's help from a host of other sources, but to think this hobby is anything but destructive to natural reefs is naive. Also, last I checked, two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't like the way the hobby is sometimes and I'd like to see reform. I realize I'm part of the problem just by being in it and I can live with that. The people that bug me are the ones that have blatant disregard for livestock or have somehow convinced themselves that this hobby isn't destructive to natural resources.

kev apsley
09/01/2007, 12:44 PM
if you purchase captive grown corals and fish and donate $ to a charitable reef organization then you prolly justify your means

owenb01
09/01/2007, 12:46 PM
strat--check your pm

rtstrat01
09/01/2007, 12:46 PM
lobster, get a life, what does this explain.

owenb01
09/01/2007, 12:51 PM
Yeah, go away, hippie. I'm certain your greenpeace friends wouldn't appreciate you contributing to the energy crisis by using a computer....hey, how do you guys charge your hybrids without using electricity that only contributes to global warming? The polar bears are going to drown and it's YOUR FAULT!!!!!!!!

Peter Eichler
09/01/2007, 12:56 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10682052#post10682052 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by owenb01
Yeah, go away, hippie. I'm certain your greenpeace friends wouldn't appreciate you contributing to the energy crisis by using a computer....hey, how do you guys charge your hybrids without using electricity that only contributes to global warming? The polar bears are going to drown and it's YOUR FAULT!!!!!!!!

Uhhhh, hybrids don't need to be charged Einstein. You're way out of line in this thread and if you can't have an intelligent debate you need to take a hike. There are various sides of this issue and people should be allowed a voice without having to be berated by the likes of you.

smiller
09/01/2007, 01:18 PM
Some of you are completely over the line in your postings here. I suggest several of you, particularly rtstrat01, read the UA http://reefcentral.com/agreement.php before posting on this board again. We have already lost one member due to this thread, along with some other previous issues.

Thread closed.