It seems redundant, but this can't be ick?

[kremit2003]

I have rercently set up a new SW tank. I do not have any live rock, etc. I bought 3 different damsels, all from the same tank, all from Petco (first mistake) just to try them out and see how well the tank was operating. The levels have all been safe and normal which includes the temperature and hydrometer readings. My question is, my new damsels, which didn't show any obvious signs of illness or expecially the infamous white spots of Ick, all exhibited these white spots on their fins and scales about 3 hours after they were gradually introduced to my tank. Now, I am a very experienced FW hobbyist and know a thing or two about Ick, but I am having a hard time believing that my fish, who are still swimming, eating, and otherwise breathing normally, all just instantly produced these white spots only hours after being placed in a tank where they are the first livestock. Any suggestions? And to make things more strange, I woke up this morning and all except for maybe two or three spots are all gone. Nothing is left. Could it be the extremely fine grain sand I have at the bottom? I know SW fish are different from FW but I would think that the parasitic infection such as Ick would behave in relatively the same manner. Please let me know if you have ever experienced this. Also, I have read plenty of your posts on treatment of Ick but was curious if there was a medicine you could just add to the tank, like "Ick Away" for FW fish?

[lesages]

Without pictures it would be hard to identify what it is.

If your trying to cycle a tank without any live rock with 3 damsels you've got bigger problems though. You need to add all of the live rock/sand you plan on having about a month BEFORE you add any live stock.

I would move the fish to an established aquarium then add all of the live rock and let that tank cycle. Otherwise your going to continue to run into problems.

[Lotus99]

I've had fish swim around with bits of sand on them, looked exactly like ich and gave me a panic! Keep an eye on them. In saltwater, you need to treat for ich outside the display tank; anything that will kill the ich will kill your live rock, too. Here's a great article on marine ich: http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyummy42/ich.html

You didn't say anything about your ammonia and nitrites.

[kremit2003]

Ok awesome (in sarcasm)...My Ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are all under 1ppm and in the "normal range". So I am kind of worried now and have apparently missed a big part of my research before I started the SW hobby. I need to bring the fish back to the store then, as I do not want to cause problems for them or for myself. I initially was not going to have any live rock at all. If this were still the case, would I be able to have anemones and other invertabrates? Also, how much live rock do I truly need? It will spread and begin to cover my other reef rocks wont it? I have about 30 lbs. of reef rock in there now...

[wooden_reefer]

It is possible to cycle with sand, except very fine sand.

The best is to use wet-dry. The percentage of water flowing thru the medium can be high. Water dripping onto balls of sand made by sand enclosed by nylon is a possibility. It is a surface tension phenomenon.

Or even very high flow inside a tank may cycle a shallow sand bed. The max bioload using this method and setup would likely be low.

I suggest one rethinks using sand alone as the filter medium, however.

If it turns out to be ich, you have one trick. You can cycle while doing hypo at the same time. Just cycle with sg of 1.010 or 1.009.

Last is my boiler plate opinion: cycling with fish is suboptimal. The max bioload after cycling will be low; the cycle will be a weak one. You may have to rely on mini-cycling as you add livestock.
In stead, use decaying fish food at a sustained rate of adding ammonia; the cycle will be much more robust.

[lesages]

Your post and "Current Tanks" line made it sound like you've got no rock in there at all. If you've got rock in there now, great. If it was base rock then expect your tank to mature much slower.

As soon as you add live rock to your tank you will spark another cycle as the die-off from the rock decays. That's why it's important to have everything in the tank from the start.

The die-off from the live rock and decaying fish food or a shrimp will cycle a tank without the need for subjecting live animals to the harsh conditions of a cycling tank.

[kremit2003]

Thanks for the replies but I feel more confused now than I did at the beginning. Yes, I have about 16 lbs. of rock in there now, NOT live rock. Im not sure that I am going to use live rock. As for the fish, I am not subjecting them to harsh conditions on purpose, I stated in my previous reply that I was taking them back. What do I need to do from here, since I am getting conflicting answers. I have a 46 gallon tank, with CC and fine sand as the substrate and 16 lbs. of rock (not live rock). Where do I go from here if I only want a FO tank, no LR? Please help?!..Again, thanks for the replies already!

[Sk8r]

People used to keep plain sand, filter driven tanks back in the 80's. Filters need cleaning weekly, and they're a bit prone to spikes and probems, but as long as you're only fish, you'll get by: fish are tough.

Get test strips for ammonia/nitrate. Get the Salifert test for alkalinity, get a ph meter and a refractometer, and keep a log book of your tests, readings, changes, and events. That will get you ahead of disasters.

What you propose to do is harder work, running with no sump, no skimmer, no biological cleaning or cleaning crew, but it can be done, with close attention to detail and always being equipped with: carbon to remove ammonia; spare salt and ro/di water to do a water change [removes/lowers nitrates]; Amquel in case ammonia really gets out of hand, and a large enough tank to accommodate marine fish. 46 gallon tank would accommodate fish who don't grow longer/larger than 2" adult size. Species recommendations: blennies [1], gobies [several], jawfish, percula clowns [2 only], dartfish [firefish] [1], cardinals, chromis [1], fairy wrasses [these are nippy and can kill smaller, more timid fish, but do well in a tank where aggression is equally matched: very colorful and showy] Eel---if the only fish in the tank.

Do not buy: damsels, angels, tangs, dragonets [mandarins, scooter 'blennies'], sharks, puffers, rays, butterfly fish, or larger wrasses. All these fishes either grow too large for a 46, or 50, or 75...or eat things that will bankrupt you.

Welcome aboard. You'll find most questions if posed in the subject line will get an answer inside half an hour [if anybody knows the answer]---and when feeling out the quality of advice of your fish store, asking here is often a good idea until you can judge whether you're being well advised. Tend to look at the experience level listed under the sig line, which will tell you a bit about us...but some of our novices are getting sharp, so don't discount their advice out of hand!

We've all been there [confused] and have great sympathy for somebody trying to get a tank going.

[kremit2003]

Ok so you think that I should be going with the LR? I am not sure if I have the proper lighting for that type of rock or not, I have what the hood came with. As for the sand, are there not alternative ways to create a bioload other than with buying live sand or LR? I do have a test kit, which was $50 that includes the pH, alkalinity, ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites. All levels have been normal for a few days now. I have just read elsewhere that LR is not needed and can be easier to care for a tank without it. What special areas do I need to watch out for now. Can someone give me a very detailed list of things to do from here on out? For a tank with and/or without live rock? Thanks again...

[Sk8r]

WIth, you just put in the live rock, then add regular aragonite dry sand, add 1.025 salt water [1/2 salt mix per gallon], turn on your pump, [do you have a sump? Return pump? Skimmer? If no downflow box, you can get a hang-on-back one, then run a hose to a small sump, which can contain your skimmer and return pump and heater.] [The skimmer is a bubble-machine that is your tank's kidneys: it froths water into foam that you collect in the cup [provided] and toss, which is sort of like cleaning a filter, but neater, faster, and more efficient]]
To handle that kind of tank, you just let it bubble away, tossing in a few flakes of fish food every couple of days until the tests read a lot of ammonia---and---in subsequent days, less and less ammonia, down to none. Then you see algae starting to grow, you add inverts [snails, hermits] and then you add fish. You need 1 lb sand and 1 lb live rock per gallon, or you just have to wait a few more weeks for your non-live rock [you can mix live rock and base: it takes longer] to enliven.
What has happened: layers of bacteria have started digesting any waste that happens and sending up nitrogen gas bubbles from the sand. Your skimmer may now start to work, frothing up a storm so you can pitch the froth and be rid of it. [Skimmer quality very important to success of tank.] You never have to clean anything but the glass and the skimmer.

No sump, no skimmer: you use a cannister filter and clean it weekly, replacing the carbon as you do so. You still have rock and sand, and fishes. You might even get away with some zoas or mushrooms that like low light and don't mind a little nitrate. You DO NOT clean your sandbed. If it gets bad, you hope you don't have a conch-eating fish and put in a conch or nassarius snails that will wander around under the sand and clean it for you. A sandshifting fish can do it, too, if you don't have fish that would eat him. [The sandcleaners work on the sump/skimmer type tank, too.] One thing you never do is stir a sandbed: this can kill your tank. The fact they sell devices to do this is scary.
Also, if you have no skimmer, and fish, you want to limit your fish: gobies and/or wrasses are very bright and colorful, and mass very little---gobies are actually better, because they will eat detritus [gunk] and algae, and don't foul up the water as fast as a meat-eater like a wrasse. Study your fishes' dietary habits and be sure the diet doesn't include each other [liveaquaria.com has a compatibility chart on their marine fish sale panel]...and try to get a balance between detritus/algae eaters and meat eaters and keep them small. The most fatal thing new tank keepers do is get big eyes for bigger fish than their tank can handle, without regard to how big they grow or whether they're carnivores [they create more net waste] and they overload, or push their systems to the limit. If you're running with less than the full complement of equipment, just keep your bioload smaller and you'll do fine. QUarantine for 2 weeks on each fish, and put the fish in 1 or 2 at a time. I run a 54g, pretty close to your size, and you can see my fish list below, which [except the mandarin: requires a refugium] would do ok as a low-load tank---maybe one-two fewer gobies.

HTH.

[kremit2003]

Thank you so much for the help. I think I am going to stay away from Live Rock for now. I am up for the challenge but am in college and know my limits. I will stay away from more complex environments for now. I am going to look into a skimmer however. As for the fine sand, will it seriously compact as time goes on? Right now, it seems like every little movement makes the water a bit cloudy, not too bad, but a bit hazy.

[wooden_reefer]

Even in the 80's, most people did not use just sand; they used gravel such as crushed coral. Sand has always been considered too fine. Most people did not want anerobic condition right in the show tank and they wanted enough nitrification.

Shallow sand looks nice and has miscellanous usefulness; deep sand bed is separate.

In stead of natural live rock, there are several possibilities in a reef tank.

Artificial LR

shallow layer of crushed coral in tank

separate filter with crushed coral.

In a FO tank with large fish, the last is best, IMO.

Many people think that live rock has a better balance between nitrification and denitrification, and/or its tremendous surface area allows much algae growth that assimilates nitrate. However, one can use separate denitrification filters. HTH

[Sk8r]

I'd be more comfortable if more people who are into modern fish-only tanks could chime in here: I'm reef, and I've been reef so long I don't know exactly where the safe limits are for fishes: I get the picture this probably needs HOB equipment, will be collegiate, may need to be left for holidays [a guess] and needs to be the sort of thing you can neglect for a few days during finals crunch, and maybe also break down and take with you once you're home for the summer. People with experience doing this recently will know the modern alternatives better than I do. My collegiate saltwater was back in the 60's.

[kremit2003]

Ha ha. Thanks. You kind of right in all of those areas. One good thing is that I have an apartment which I do not need to tear the tank down for the summer or anything. It is up, and will stay up, for a long time. (well at least a year anf a half until I have to move it, uh oh). I have more crushed coral in the bottom than I do sand, so it isn't even 50/50 at the bottom. Thanks again sk8r for all the help. I can tell by reading your posts that your more experienced than just by the books.

[BadOleRoss]

I pretty much have a FOWLR tank. There are a handful of mushrooms and other low light corals in there but its mainly fish. My tank is 220 gallons with about 400bs of LR. I do have a sump that also holds about 50 gallons that contains my refugium and skimmer. If I were in your shoes I woud start with 50lbs of LR and a few good qualitypowerheads to circulate the water and work on a HOB skimmer. Once the tank cycled you could start re-adding fish.