Maintaining copepod populations for a mandarin

[Hades]

I am currently considering getting a psychedelic mandarin fish for my 20 gallon nano tank. I know that mandarin fish are capable of consuming vast amounts of copepods in one day and was wondering what the opinions were on using a small hang on back filter with live rock, magic mud, and chaeto to produce copepods that are fed into the main display tank. I am hoping to buy a mandarin fish from the LFS that already accepts some prepared foods so that I can feed him directly with cyclo-peeze, brine shrimp, and spirulina as well as to try and culture copepods in a tuper ware container so that I could "pipet" some copepods into the tank when I felt populations were declining. What are the expert opinions on this setup? Am I alright or will I still end up lacking in the amount of copepods I will need?

[ScarabRa]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10714090#post10714090 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hades
I am currently considering getting a psychedelic mandarin fish for my 20 gallon nano tank. I know that mandarin fish are capable of consuming vast amounts of copepods in one day and was wondering what the opinions were on using a small hang on back filter with live rock, magic mud, and chaeto to produce copepods that are fed into the main display tank. I am hoping to buy a mandarin fish from the LFS that already accepts some prepared foods so that I can feed him directly with cyclo-peeze, brine shrimp, and spirulina as well as to try and culture copepods in a tuper ware container so that I could "pipet" some copepods into the tank when I felt populations were declining. What are the expert opinions on this setup? Am I alright or will I still end up lacking in the amount of copepods I will need?

IMHO and Experience:
Unless the 20gal is loaded with pods, and already established, I dont think the mandrin will be able to be sustained on natural foods for long. Maby if its a really tiny mandrin, but that would only be if, and ONLY if the tank was already established with pods.

That tank is not large enough to produce its own food supply of pods, unless the fuge was/is WAY bigger.

Better to have TOO MANY pods, than not enough.

[thirty5]

You might have a prob in the Nano. The Pods can reproduce if there are enough of them and enough rock to hide in. You can just buy bottles of pods but that gets very expensive. Just keep an eye on him and make sure that he is eating. Those fish graze and eat all them time so if you dont have enough and he gets hungry and starts to starve he many not start to eat again even if there are pods in the tank. Mandarins are hard to keep sometimes.

[robsee06]

Don't do it unless it eats prepared foods...a 20 is WAY too small

[J. Montgomery]

I don't recommend getting one either. I haven't been able to keep one long term in my 55 gallon.

[Randall_James]

it is generally accepted that you need at least 100lbs of good live rock habitat for copepod propagation to keep a mandarin fed fairly well. This is provided that there are no other copepod predators as well.

It is always possible that it will eat prepared foods but I would never purchase an animal based on the concept you can teach it to eat an abnormal diet.

I would bypass this fish

[m2434]

My pod population alway's blooms if I have a diatom outbreak. you could alway's dose phosphates :smokin:

[reefer1024]

Dont do it! Way to small! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!!

[Hades]

I don't think I am going to do it anymore, but if you look in old RK magazines tanks of the month a mandrin was kept in a tank that was about 8 gallons in size but the fuge was around 27 gallons. I was going to try and recreate that setup but with my 20 gallon but it sems like the work may be more than the reward. Thanks all of you for the advice.

[reefer1024]

I think in that tank he found a mandarin that was eating prepared foods.

[Canute]

I have a Mandarin that's REALLY fat. But it's in a 180g tank with only six other small fish and 60+ gallons of refugia.

[euphoricgear]

maybe get a refugium running on a separate tank maybe a 10-20gallons. then have a bagfull and trasfer it to your main tank every night to repopulate the pods in the main tank for your mandarin.

i was thinking of doing this. you guys think its a good idea?

[Julio]

you can do only if you stock your nano with pods and culture them in the nanon by feeding phyto on a regular babsis to get the pods to reproduce rapidly and them if it works out then you can add, i have one in a 30 gallon but he ate frozen foods too and way too fat. Cyclops eeze will help too.

[MammothReefer]

I had a breeding pair of mands in my 55gallon for quite some time, both were very healthy (to the point they started to breed) sadly i lost them due to equipment failure, but here is what I did

1. Fit the largest sized hob fugue on the back of my tank, filled with sand, rubble and cheato. (feed fugue)

2. Setup rubble piles in your display, behind rock work, ect (rubble pile needs to be in places fishes can't get to so pods can hide and grow in the display

3. Be prepared to feed gutloaded live brine w/frozen mysis to your tank on a regular basis until and in hopes of your fish eating frozen foods.

4. Setup second fugue in sump w/cheato, and culture pods in sump regulars "shake" cheato into display.

5. Don't keep animals that will compete with mands for pods.

[Julio]

one thing i did notce with these fish is that they will feed at night, although they are not considered noturnal when ever i did wake up in the middle of hte night and check on the tank the mandarin was advidly pecking and feeding.

[thejrc]

I'd be a hyppocrit if I told you you could keep a mandarin in anything less than 50 gallons with a good stocked fuge and good live rock. Even so I have a mandarin that is quite fat in a bare bottom experimental 20 gallon with a 2.5 gallon aquafuge running a DSB. But then again I culture copepods as a hobby.

Google copepod culturing and go from there, it's quite easy and you will find that a bottle of phyto and a few empty soda bottles along with an airpump will go a long way. You can click my red house to see my findings and what I'm doing with my cultures.

If you do decide to start cultures and go for the mandarin, start your cultures about 45 days ahead of time to get them to mature, for a 20 I'd recommend about 4 2 litre or larger cultures where one is set as a master culture and only split when necessary with the other three cultures running for constant food source. For something that small unless you feed your tank with a phyto source already I'd recommend Kent's phytoplex as it's cheap and readily available and it works for pod culturing quite well. If you feed the tank check the ingredients, anything with nannocloropsis and isochrysis should work, feed such as reef nutrition or Liquid life are better as they offer more variety in phyto species.

Even if you start culturing, make sure you have at least some environment for them to hide in, preferably a refugium of some sort as well as live rock and a good sand bed, but if you must settle for one of the three go with the fuge, live rock next (I'm fighting back the urge to say that a good stack of live rock should be required). And definately make sure you have a last resort.... cultures crash, it simply happens. Make sure you have an LFS that either stocks or can get you live pods or mysis (such as Reef nutritions tigger pods) in within a few days in the event you lose your cultures.

If you do decide to go with the mandarin and culture, I hope you find as much interest in the copepod as I have! But if you notice your mandarin getting skinny please by all means find it a better home!

[Caleb Kruse]

LOL, Joe I was just about to post your website about pod culturing.

[vikubz]

I've had a mandarin in a 55 for 3 months now and she is staying nice and plump. I have a large pod pile wrapped in netting in the display tank to encourage pods, I have pods growing in my sump, and I have a 29 gallon which is a sort of un-plumbed refugium. I take a handful of chaeto out and put it in the 29 gallon for a few days, then toss it into the sump. So far she is finding plenty to eat.

However, the 55 had been running for a year, and the 29 'fuge was literally crawling, wall to wall with pods before I got the mandarin.

[davidryder]

Well I'll be honest... I got a green mandarin in my 90 with TWO refugiums and I think he was on the brink of starvation for almost 5 months. I really don't know how he survived. I couldn't get him to eat prepared foods and it took, in 40g of refugiums and 90g of display, 6 months for the pod population to get to the point where the mandarin started to gain weight. I was positive he was going to die but somehow he held on...

Mandarins should be left to the well established and larger systems. 20g, unless accompanied by a 30g+ refugium, might be better off without a mandarin.

If you are totally committed however I'm sure many amongst us including myself can give you tips to give the mandarin the best chance possible. But trust me, if you have any compassion it will be difficult to watch your mandarin waste away and near starve to death :(

[euphoricgear]

will a six line eat up the pods too? are they ok to mix with a mandarin?

[davidryder]

They will compete with each other for food... 6-lines will gobble up whatever pods he can get his mouth on.

[euphoricgear]

mmm. guess no mandarin then

[JetCat USA]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10768746#post10768746 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Julio
one thing i did notce with these fish is that they will feed at night, although they are not considered noturnal when ever i did wake up in the middle of hte night and check on the tank the mandarin was advidly pecking and feeding.

you've got some pretty significant moon lighting/ambient light on the tank or you've got a strange one there Julio, most Mandy's settle in shortly after lights off, turn white and form their slime cocoon for protection.

[wrasseguy2]

i was in the same boat as davidryder..i have a 90 with at least 100lbs of live rock and had lots of pods...my tank had been running well over a year and the fuge also..and my mandrin looked really bad for quite sometime had tons of pods he just was not eating and i was just waiting for it to go any day..he has made a huge turn now and looks alot better and i see him eating pods all day..and a few month ago he started to eat frozen...i think it would be very hard to do in a 20 though wish i had an old pic of him but i got him when he was very small nice and fat now!!!
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee90/detguy212/mandarin7.jpg

[dohc97]

Im not going to go against what everyone is saying, but in case you still want to try i read a couple articles about feeding and keeping mandarins in small tanks in tfh magazine. You might want to look through past issues i believe its in the December 06, January 07 or February 07 issues.

[davidryder]

wrasseguy2, that's a nice and fat mandarin ya got there :D

Nice photo also!


My mandarin was all skin and bones and very inactive until I turned my sump into a refugium. My display refugium circulated through my sump and I think devoid of light and anything to attach to any copepods that made it to the sump just died. He gained a lot of weight but he still isn't where the one above is.

[ScarabRa]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10899421#post10899421 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dohc97
Im not going to go against what everyone is saying, but in case you still want to try i read a couple articles about feeding and keeping mandarins in small tanks in tfh magazine. You might want to look through past issues i believe its in the December 06, January 07 or February 07 issues.

Yes, you can "keep" them in a 15gal, you just need to be sure that they are fed enough. They feed all day long, so i would imagine they would cull the population down very quickly in a small tank.

The rear body/tail from above should be fat all the way back to the tail fin, and there stomach should be even to slightly protruding. (Just like in wrasseguy2's pic)

[Scrandrew]

I do not have a problem, personally, with keeping him in the 20. But, I personally would recommend a very large fuge to house the main population. I have a 210 reef with a 75 fuge and my both tanks team with pods. But, there is a safe haven to protect a breeding population.

A~

[davidryder]

I just can imagine a mandarin decimating the entire population of pods in a 20g tank before new ones have time to be introduced into the tank - even with the largest refugium attached. In a larger tank with a lot of land there would be more of a balance between how many pods the mandarin take out and how many are being introduced from the refugium. Also in a larger tank the pods would have the opportunity to reproduce in the tank as well as be supplied from the refugium.

I dunno... just one of those fish that you can definitely live without.

[elkinsda]

Heres a pic of my mandarin! I've had him for a year now.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x222/elkinsda957/IMG_3416.jpg


Derek,

[drstupid]

i keep a small filter sponge (from an aquaclear mini) in my sump, outside of the refugium so it doesn't get snarled with chaeto. once every three days or so i take a quart cup of mix water and float the sponge in that. ten minutes later, the container is swarming with pods, the sponge goes back in the sump and i dump the quart into the display.

i have a mandarin and a mulleri, both fat and happy. there's about 140 lbs of live rock in the display, and a DSB, and i still feel a need to export pods from the sump. as far as i can tell, the mulleri doesn't sleep, just hunts 24 hours a day.