Switching to T5s

[KDodds]

I'm looking at the 8x54W 48" units from Sunlight Supply (Tek Light) and from Current (Nova Extreme). Any opinions/experiences, pros/cons, with each unit?

[Mark75]

I have a 36" Nova Extreme that I am happy with. The quality of the fixture is good. Keep in mind it does not have individual reflectors which limits par a lot. If you are putting this light on a deep tank or wanting to keep high light specimens look for a fixture with individual reflectors. As far as T5 fixtures with individual reflectors the Tek light is not the best. Aquatinics makes a good one.

[KDodds]

Do you have a link to the Aquatinics?

[KDodds]

Hmm... okay, found them...

The Aquactinics are 5x54W fixtures at under the price of the 8x54W Teks, which is the about the same as the Nova, a little less, but the Nova comes with lamps, where the Tek and Aquactinics do not. So, I'm looking at ~$800 for two Novas, or $840+$320 for 8 bulbs for the Teks. If I want to get even close to 400-500W on the Aquactinics, I'll either have to go with four 5 lamp fixtures ($730) or the 7 lamp fixture at $570, plus bulbs. Personally, I have a very hard time justifying that kind of price increase just for reflectors. Any other reasons why the Aquactinics would be a better choice?

2 Novas @ $800, with $20 bulbs
2 Teks @ $1160, with $20 bulbs
2 Aquactinics @ $1420, with $20 bulbs

That's a prett big difference. I don't mind spending extra for better if "better" justifies "extra". But $300-600 is a lot of better to justify. :)

[Mark75]

I understand your concern, I also purchased the Nova because of price. Keep in mind single reflectors increase light output by more than 40%. If you want to keep SPS or clams you must have individual reflectors!! When it comes to T5 lighting it is all about the reflectors!!!!!!!

[Julio]

ddi you compare that wi tthe PFO Poly light fixture?

[KDodds]

Actually, I'm looking at a soft-only tank. Any verification of that 40% increase? Even so, at a 40% increase, the 5x54W (270W actual) fixture would only be equivalent to the output of 378W. The 8x54W is 432W total. So, I'd still need to go with the 7 bulb set up (378W) to get an output equivalent to 429W, which still falls short of the Nova. So really, I'd only save like ½kW/h per day, or maybe what, 5¢ per day, less than $20/year. Still not worth it. BUT, I think you've maybe sold me on the Teks. :D

[KDodds]

The PFO Polyplights are only ~$20 cheaper than the Teks, and not as sleek looking, but do come in an 8x54W for that price. Only problem, it's not 48", it's 49", that might not work for me.

[Mark75]

From what I have heard about the Tek lights they are not much better than the Nova Extreme. If you want to go with a more expensive single reflector fixture I would do some more research. Ask Grimreefer in the long T5 thread about your choices.

[Lumamae]

Individual reflectors!!! You get the most out of your bulbs with them. Be very careful to acclimate your tank slowly to new T5s or everything can bleach out.

[Julio]

are you talking about internal bulb reflectors or reflectors that the bulb are mounted on?

[DarG]

K dodds, you are missing something in comparing the fixtures and prices. Bulb replacement cost and added heat. You are looking at nearly double the bulb replacement costs for a set-up without individual reflectors compared to one with individual relfector for each tube.

The TEK's arent fan cooled. If you use the acrylic shield you lose a signifigant amount of par because of heat build up which directly affects the ouput of the T5's.

The Aquactinics are fan cooled so you do pay more for a more effective fixture.

The Reflectors are very important. When I switched from the 8 bulb Nova extreme to a 4 bulb retro with IceCap SLR relfectors, by eye, the light output was very close. The 4 bulb with reflectors was very nearly as bright as the Nova Extreme. IMO and IME, 5 bulbs with individual relfectors beats 8 bulbs under a single, large reflector like used in the Nova.

Just consider that you can do as much with about half the wattage if using individual reflectors compared to one single reflector for all the bulbs. When you consider the power usage difference, less heat transferred and half the bulb replacement costs ... IF you can swing the additional initial investment for the well designed individual reflector fixture / fixtures, it very likely will pay for the difference not too far down the road.

Also, you can always go with retrofit kits and save compared to buying plug and play fixtures.

[KDodds]

Okay, I'm missing something here, are you saying that bulbs used without single reflectors burn out sooner than those with? Or that their PAR values drop at twice the rate? Do you have any statistics to back that up?

I'm still not convinced, now you're saying that 4 identical bulbs in a "quality" fixture put out as much visible light (which doesn't measure PAR) as those same bulbs, but 8 of them, in a single reflector setup? That's not a 40% increase, that's a 100% increase. Do you have any references that back that up?

I would not be using a shield and the canopy is cooled by constant air flow via ducting, so I'm not really all that worried about heat build up in the fixture itself, tho I do know that fluorescent life is extended by direct cooling.

Can anyone else chime in on this "bulb life" point?

Curious, no one's mentioned Giesemann either, why? Poor experience, or just not enough people using them, I wonder?

[DarG]

No, I'm not saying they burn out sooner, I'm saying you dont need as many bulbs to get the PAR that your tank requires.
If you needed 8 T5's in a Nova Fixture, you would only need 4 or 5 bulbs in a Retro with SLR reflectors or an Aquactinics 5 bulb fixture to equal or exceed the par of the 8 bulb Nova. That's only about 1/2 as many bulbs required when it comes time for replacements. 1/2 the bulbs, half the replacement cost.

I dont have any numbers to back up the PAR values between the two set-ups. Nobody could provide the numbers, no matter how much I and others asked for them. All I can relate to you is my personal experience with and opinions on both set-ups. I replaced an 8 bulb Nova extreme with 4 T5's with individual IceCap SLR reflectors when I swapped to a combination T5 / Halide lighting set-up. Both T5 set-ups were using high quality bulbs, German and UVL. My perception was that the 4 T5's under SLR's appeared to have nearly the same light output as the Nova Extreme 8 bulb. I'm not trying to sell you anything or pass anything along as proven by the scientific method, you misunderstand my intentions. I'm just relaying my experience with both types. I personally have no doubt that 5 T5's each under their own reflector would put more light into the tank than the 8 bulb Nova. The 4 bulb set-up was close. Close enough that I have no doubt that 5 bulbs with SLR reflectors beats the 8 bulb Nova extreme.

Again, I'm not relaying anything but my experience. I'm just trying to help out. You just have to take that for what its worth to you. I'm not trying to sell you on tested data that doesnt exist. Just trying to share my experience with the two types of reflectors and my impressions after using both myself.

[pIankton]

KDodds,

I use the 48" 4 bulb Nova over my 75 and actually couldn't keep softies (except for a large leather). Shrooms, rics, zoos, nothing. Everything would do ok on the bottom for a few weeks, then all of the zoos would hug the rocks, the shrooms wouldn't expand and the rics would bleach. I kept my LPS on the bottom and was growing milli's and other SPS types all over the place with great results.

The only real drawback to the Nova is the noise. It's not a quiet fixture. I'm used to it now though and the light is actually perfect over my 90. Softies stay on the bottom and grow well.

[KDodds]

LPS and SPS were fine but Softs shriveled up and died? From too much light, you mean?

I'm actually coming down from two 2x400W DE + 2 96W PC fixtures. I can't imagine that with T5s at half the wattage that I'll have a problem in that respect, maybe the opposite. Tank's 30" deep tho, may preclude keeping anything on the bottom.

[KDodds]

Dar, AH! I knew I was missing something. Even counting replacing 8 bulbs instead of 5, it will take 4 years to approach the cost difference. I'm not sure that's worth the initial outlay, especially since we're talking about a large tank. I think I'd rather have an 8 bulb fixture over the 36" width anyway. Tank's 96x36x30, 450g.

[DarG]

Kdodds ... Just giving you the info, you choose how to use it.

One more thing ... I have nothing against the Nova fixtures. Like I said, I had the 8 bulb unit and if I stayed will all T5's, I'd still be using it. But there is also a signifigant improvement in depth penetration of the light with individual reflectors. I was fine with the Nova in my 18" deep tank and the other poster said he was fine in his 90 as well. But at 30" deep ...

Good luck with whatever you do ...

personally, I would keep the halides and supplement with T5.

[pIankton]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10764019#post10764019 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KDodds
LPS and SPS were fine but Softs shriveled up and died? From too much light, you mean?

I'm actually coming down from two 2x400W DE + 2 96W PC fixtures. I can't imagine that with T5s at half the wattage that I'll have a problem in that respect, maybe the opposite. Tank's 30" deep tho, may preclude keeping anything on the bottom.

Yeah - they hated the light. It was a 75g and only 18" deep though. Now I run it on a standard 90 at 24" deep and my softies do well now. I didn't see the 30" depth. I would go with something with individual reflectors to hit the bottom. I wouldn't use my Nova on a 30" deep tank.

[kodyboy]

get the best light you can, get th aquactinics, the reflectors and fan really improve the PAR compared to the TEK, and the nova extreme does not even compare, especially with the sub-par bulbs it comes with. A pair of 7bulb constellations would work well on your tank. I know it costs more, but it is worth it.

[KDodds]

Why keep the MH? At 4x400, that's WAY too much light for a softie tank, even 12" off the tank top, and a huge waste of electricity. I'd definitely not want to add to that, especially given current research and anecdotal evidence supporting that we already may be overlighting our corals.

Any other individual reflector fixtures in the Tek price range that might work?

[KDodds]

Has anyone measured/compared PAR on T5 units a la Sanjay Joshi's MH comparisons? I'd really like to see hard data since perceived ligh intensity is highly unreliable and subjective.

[DarG]

You have the halide set-up already and you have made it clear that you want to spend as little as you think can get away with up front. You dismissed additional energy costs as a factor. You are kind or changing gears now but that's fine. I'm just trying to help out within the confines of your own rules. You could still use a couple of the halides and chose to run lower par bulbs and not overlight your corals. Just figured that would fall into your low dollar outlay. But since you dont want to go that route, why not sell the equipment and fund you new lighting.

May as well buy the Current USA Novas. If it works for you, then dont worry about it. You wont find any hard data comparing the different fixtures, it doesnt exist. No offense but you are trying to convince yourself that the cheaper unit is as effective as the ones using individual reflectors. You wont know for yourself unless you end up experiencing both types of reflectors for yourself. Until then, you will consider others opinions on the differences as highly unreliable and subjective ... unfortunately, that's all you are going to get because nobody will be able to provide the hard data that you want to see, as I have already pointed out.

Again, just trying to share my own personal experiences with the two reflector / fixture types. I'm sorry that you find my input to be highly unreliable and subjective. I didnt think that I came across as passing the info along as anything more than personal experience and my own personal perception. But apparently I must have presented it in a way that sounded like I was passing it off as documeted, tested fact. I apologize for apparently not being clear enough in. I wish that I could provide you with the hard data that you seek. Thats the same data that I and others have requested in the past to no avail.

Once again, good luck in whatever you decide upon ...

[KDodds]

It's not that I want to spend as little as possible, it's more that there are trade-offs that can justify increased cost and those that can't. Would I spend double for a Giesemann system if a near comparable system were available at half the cost? I think not.

I dismiss the energy costs because whatever I choose will lower my consumption/electric bill. ;) There's no gear changing here, I'm simply looking for the most cost effective T5 solution WITH the most bang for the buck. Bells and whistles aren't my thing, never have been, and I don't need the latest and greatest innovation, just a reasonable solution at a reasonable cost.

I've ruled out the Novas, for sure. After comparing implementations/fixtures at MACNA, virtually next to each other, the Novas are too loud, and, yes, there is a perceptible difference. IceCap's dimming set up looked cool, but it's retro-fit only, for now at least. I liked the Proline fixtures, and even moreso the controllers. All in all, tho, the Aquactinics did seem to be the best choice of those I could evaluate. Of course, I didn't get to see the Teks in action. I'm wondering what all is so different in the reflectors that gets you that much more punch.

On another note, there's 0 observable glimmer lines under T5s. I guess I never noticed it before until it was brought to my attention by a friend. He also mentioned that Aquactinics is working on an LED implementation that might resolve that. I may just be waiting for that resolution.

[DarG]

Yep, the shimmer is basically non-existent with T5's and other flourescents.

Not sure what reflector differences you are referring to. The Tek vs. the Aquactinics? There wouldnt be much difference from the reflectors in those two. The differences would come from the fact that the TEK isnt fan cooled and the extra heat, especially with the acrylic shield installed, causes a from in par from the bulbs.

Remember, some of the Icecap set-ups use Icecap ballasts which overdrive the T5's which makes for a signifigant difference. If you saw it at the Icecap booth, they probably were using Icecap ballasts.

If you are referring to the differences between one large single reflector for all the bulbs vs. individual reflectors ... increases seen by the individual reflectors are explained by common sense really.

[KDodds]

Well, as I said, the Teks weren't on display anywhere that I saw. I did get to compare the Nova, IceCap, Aquactinics, Proline, etc...

The Aquactinics were brighter to the human eye, bulb for bulb, than any but the IceCaps. I was trying to compare the reflectors and the major difference seems to be that the "individual" reflectors extend down further. Even the Nova has "pockets" in the "single" reflector for each bulb. Although, these "pockets" don't extend down around the bulbe nearly as far as on the Aquactinics. The Proline was difficult to determine, but it looked like the reflectors were single.

Anyway, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "common sense" since the IceCap fixture was using what appeared to be single a reflector (they were demo-ing the dimmer, really), but was the brightest of the lot. I also don't see why a single sheet necessarily NEEDS to be less efficient if it's wrapped around the bulb in the same way. Unfortunately, there were not any fixtures where this was the case.

[XSiVE]

My Nova didnt have any 'pockets' for the bulbs, it just had one giant reflector.. maybe the 8bulb unit is different.

I know though, that the light penetration is A LOT better, even in my small tank since i switched to individual reflectors in a retrofit config over the single nova configuration... in a 30" deep tank, Id suggest something with individual reflectors too..

[DarG]

There wouldnt be any difference in a single reflector IF each "pocket" enveloped the bulb like the individual reflectors do. The new Nova extremes are supposed to have different reflectors than the usual single sheet but I think they are like the ones they use in their combo fixtures and two lamp fixtures where a single sheet is just folded between bulbs and creates as small "V" between them but doesnt extend beyond them. That will be more effective than a flat sheet but not as effective as a true individual reflector that envelops each bulb.

The Icecap was brighter because they use the IceCap ballast. The Icecap ballasts drives the typical 54 watt T5 to 80 - 85 watts. They overdrive the bulbs like I stated in the last post. I highly doubt that they were running the bulbs under a single sheet however. They are the company that make the most popular, individual clip on reflectors for T5's. I'm sure they would have used them. But I will verify with Chris at IceCap if you like and ask him how theyr were displaying the dimmer set-up ... if they were using a single sheet reflector or their own SLR's.

Again, a solid sheet with true pockets enveloping each bulb would be the same as true individual reflectors. But it should be common sense how a group of bulbs each "wrapped" by it's own reflector would be brighter than the same group of bulbs all under one large sheet reflector. The only light making it directly to the tank is the bottom, maybe 1/3 of the bulb. With bulbs under one large reflector, ligght from the side of the bulbs and from certain angles reflected from the upper 1/3 are going to be absorbed in part by adjacent bulbs. With a bulb in it's own reflector, all light is reflected. A small portion may be absorbed by the bulb itself, especially that reflected from the top of the bulb. But the reflectors are designed and faceted to minimize this and deflect most of the reflected light back down toward the tank. Clearly, a set-up with bulbs next to bulbs and one single reflector over the top of them isnt going to be able to reflect nearly as much light into the tank. If you visualize it and think about it, the basics of it is common sense. The technical stuff, light gometry and reflector geometry that goes into the design of the reflector and exactly how they figure all this stuff out is beyond me but there is information available about it. But the basics of why the individual reflector is more effective and efficient are common sense.

[KDodds]

100% Correct on the "new" Nova Reflectors.

The IceCap dimmer demo was installed in a "stock" Home Depot style box. It didn't appear, in any way, to be a reef tank application. I'd imagine the "overdrive" would severely impact bulb life.

[XSiVE]

Overdriven bulbs usually last about half as long...

Basically, with the new nova fixture then, you're going to get some benefit, but if its actually just kind of a V that the bulb sits in, there's not a whole lot of thought put into the system and they are just trying to market "individual reflectors" in a compact housing.

While there is some merit to this, it's nothing compared to a parabolic reflector for these lamps..

Think of a head light on a car, the bulb is placed at the focal point of the reflector, giving maximum light output. if you move that bulb closer to the reflector, the beam is going to significantly change, and instead of being able to see 200ft in front of you in a wide spread, you might only be able to see 100ft in front of you in a very small point.

The same concept is at work here.. with a well-designed reflector and a bulb placed at a proper focal length for the reflector you will get much deeper light penetration into your tank.. and at 30" deep, I'd be more concerned with light penetration than actual wattage... especially given what you want to keep in there.