LR definition has evolved?

[barbra]

Back in the early days of the live rock movement I cleared out all of my bioballs and added live rock to my tank. It was covered in life of all kinds, from algae to critters. It was expensive then, and it still is.

These days as I walk passed the LR at my LFS's I notice that it is not much more than wet base rock. For the last few months I haven't seen even a patch of coraline, or the merest hint of a bristleworm in residence. It is soaking in bacteria-laden water so they still call it "Live", but you can't actually see any life. As an example, Tampa Bay Saltwater sells live rock that fits the definition I am accustomed to: covered in visible life.

It would seem that the term "Live Rock" has been mutated to the point that people don't even expect to be able to see life. Adding a cup of used tank water to a vat of rock and letting it stew seems to be the new route to live rock. And the price is still $6-8 per pound.

Am I just nostalgically blinded or is live rock not quite as alive as it once was?

If so, does anyone else feel that charging the same price for wet base rock is a bit unethical?

[SDguy]

I'm with you. I really loved the LR I had in my first reef back in '89. All sorts of stuff, good and bad. I tried to get the same this time around. Not easy. Basically, I got the freshest, straight off the plane, stuff I could find. It's nice, but not quite like back then.

[TitusvileSurfer]

Tampa Bay Saltwater is just an hour and a half trip down the interstate for me. :)

[treny]

my LFS has the rock your talking about the good kind. it has all kinds of live things even zoos growing on it. But it will cost you about 9.00 to 12.00 a pound.

[kysard1]

There are advatages to baren live rock. Some algae you don't want introduced into your tank, doesn't matter how low nutrient your tank is, it will still grow if seeded. Cooking LR has become popular because of this.

The best LR has a good start of coralline and little else, the coralline gets a jump start over any micro-s.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10793059#post10793059 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kysard1
The best LR has a good start of coralline and little else,

Eh, that's not live rock, that's rock with coraline and bacteria on it ;)

[Kaos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10791822#post10791822 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barbra
Back in the early days of the live rock movement I cleared out all of my bioballs and added live rock to my tank. It was covered in life of all kinds, from algae to critters. It was expensive then, and it still is.

These days as I walk passed the LR at my LFS's I notice that it is not much more than wet base rock. For the last few months I haven't seen even a patch of coraline, or the merest hint of a bristleworm in residence. It is soaking in bacteria-laden water so they still call it "Live", but you can't actually see any life. As an example, Tampa Bay Saltwater sells live rock that fits the definition I am accustomed to: covered in visible life.

It would seem that the term "Live Rock" has been mutated to the point that people don't even expect to be able to see life. Adding a cup of used tank water to a vat of rock and letting it stew seems to be the new route to live rock. And the price is still $6-8 per pound.

Am I just nostalgically blinded or is live rock not quite as alive as it once was?

If so, does anyone else feel that charging the same price for wet base rock is a bit unethical?

:lol: You must be visiting Animal Jungle in Virginia Beach. They have the most pitiful LR I have ever seen. The rock in my 10gal. came from a guy that had bought it from PA and had too much. It sat in a trash can in his bathroom for a week and was held up in shipping to me for about another week and still had a ton more life the Animal Jungle's just arrived rock.

[barbra]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10794023#post10794023 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kaos
:lol: You must be visiting Animal Jungle in Virginia Beach. They have the most pitiful LR I have ever seen. The rock in my 10gal. came from a guy that had bought it from PA and had too much. It sat in a trash can in his bathroom for a week and was held up in shipping to me for about another week and still had a ton more life the Animal Jungle's just arrived rock.

Too Funny! Animal Jungle is one of them, but I haven't gone in months because I have a personal boycott going.

They're all selling more-dead-than-alive rock though....even the good ones, and much of what I see online is pretty dead looking too.

[barbra]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10793059#post10793059 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kysard1
There are advatages to baren live rock. Some algae you don't want introduced into your tank, doesn't matter how low nutrient your tank is, it will still grow if seeded. . Cooking LR has become popular because of this.

The best LR has a good start of coralline and little else, the coralline gets a jump start over any micro-s.

I won't tangle with your logic here, but I will say that I would rather fight a few evils than go without the good stuff, the diversity.

If loving the algae is wrong, I don't want to be right :)

[Mark75]

Well I ordered my Fiji lr from Premium Aquatics and it is very much a live! I have found tube worms, feather dusters, 2 types of sponges, a zoanthid, and a this, yet to be identified;
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t7/mark2326/DSC00584.jpg
It also showed up covered in coralline. Needless to say I was very happy with PA.

[SDguy]

Porites. A common SPS hitchiker. Mine turned green under bright light.

[barbra]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10794745#post10794745 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mark75
Well I ordered my Fiji lr from Premium Aquatics and it is very much a live! I have found tube worms, feather dusters, 2 types of sponges, a zoanthid, and a this, yet to be identified; It also showed up covered in coralline. Needless to say I was very happy with PA.

It isn't so bad as some, I'll concede that much. Algae isn't bad though, and I really don't know why it is as feared as it is.

A test for rock quality:
Have you wrecked work the next day because you were up all night with a red flashlight marveling at the extensive array of feelers, legs, and whatnot poking out of the holes?
Did the chills run down your spine when the strangest thing you have ever seen out of the corner of your eye runs across the sand?
How many posts did it take before you found a name for all the little oddities that showed up weeks and even moths down the road?

Even the requests for ID's are getting run of the mill. Woo Hoo, another peanut worm detected, and .......what is that????....OMG, It's a copepod....Save us all! Actually, outside of a mantis, your porites is the most interesting thing I've seen in a while.

[Mark75]

I have seen what is suppose to be live rock sold that looks like cinder blocks! I was very worried when I ordered mine. I judge the quality of live rock by how long you can be happy watching ONLY your live rock. I think that my be why so many people in this hobby rush to stock their tank. If they had started out with truly live rock they would be content watching it develop.

[Mark75]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10794780#post10794780 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Porites. A common SPS hitchiker. Mine turned green under bright light.

SDguy you sound certain so I am going with your I.D. Porites it is!
This had been mention before but the polyps are larger than the porites I have seen before, and still growing with long sweepers.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10794980#post10794980 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barbra

Even the requests for ID's are getting run of the mill. Woo Hoo, another peanut worm detected, and .......what is that????....OMG, It's a copepod....Save us all! Actually, outside of a mantis, your porites is the most interesting thing I've seen in a while.

LOL, so funny!!

I've got a good one for you. Started as a small orange lump with glassy needles/hairs sticking out the end. Has since grown, in a year, into a multi-branched orange thing with the same glassy hairs sticking out the end of each branch. Sorry, the pic sucks...my camera won't focus on it with the corals in the way...
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Orangeforam.jpg

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10795061#post10795061 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mark75
SDguy you sound certain so I am going with your I.D. Porites it is!
This had been mention before but the polyps are larger than the porites I have seen before, and still growing with long sweepers.

Well, in all fairness, i don't have any size reference in the pic, so I'm gonna guess porites, but don't quote me on that ;)

[barbra]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10795032#post10795032 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mark75
I judge the quality of live rock by how long you can be happy watching ONLY your live rock. I think that my be why so many people in this hobby rush to stock their tank. If they had started out with truly live rock they would be content watching it develop.

I agree with that. I wasn't impatient at all with my last tank construction, the live rock was great all on it's own.

[LobsterOfJustice]

SD I would think millepora from the descriptions of the hairs and the pic. Not Acropora millepora, the other kind :)

[barbra]

SDguy - I like that orange thing, that's exactly what makes it all worthwhile I think. It's where the wonder comes in.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10795164#post10795164 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
SD I would think millepora from the descriptions of the hairs and the pic. Not Acropora millepora, the other kind :)

Hmmm, didn't even think of that. Interesting. I was thinking some sort of foraminiferan...

BTW, I blew through SOOO many batteries staring at my live rock with a flashlight after tank lights out :D

[barbra]

I know just what you mean, I have a Ryobi rechargeable and two batteries to overcome that problem. Don't you just hate it when the light conks out at 3am?

[bues0022]

Being a newbie I can't really comment on how LR "used" to be, but I'll agree that when I started going to my LFS (I've since moved thank goodness) and looking online, I was disappointed at what "live" rock was. I couldn't figure how a rock in a stock tank without lights in the back room was "alive". I think the draw for the barren LR is to avoid unwanted critters. However, I wanted "live" rock, so within the next few weeks I'll be putting in my order for TBS.

[Peter Eichler]

There is still great live rock out there, you just have to find a good source. Also, live rock of old had a hell of a lot of sponge and it always polluted tanks. Sure looked pretty and colorful at first but made a huge mess.

[HBtank]

TBS really is not the same either. Being in ocean for years does not equal being in the ocean from the day it was formed. Not to mention the density. In the sense of retaining the most visible life, it might be the closest.

Anyways, I heard the "gorrilla crab select" TBS was really nice, but many prefer the "mantis and ugly zoa supreme".:D

[revenant]

The walt smith I got was covered in all kinds of coraline (purple and green) and two spots of porites, feather worms.. lots of stuff.. very much ~live~ rock! I am VERY happy with it.

[Sepeku]

Yah, I know what you mean. Allot of stores and sites try to sell live rock that seems anything but.

Bob's Tropicals over here outside of Memphis is pretty darn awesome though. They still have "Real" live rock. They even have the "dead" live rock and sell them accordingly.

I highly recommend them. I purchased a piece of live rock for my refugium for all the variety of macro algae it had. And low and behold I found a ROCK FLOWER ANENOME living on it some time later in addition to variations of shrimp and bristle worms.
Another time I picked one up I was suprised to find an SPS colony of some form that has continued to grow to this day.

Good stuff. It's like a grab bag of awesome over there.

[barbra]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10795988#post10795988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
...Also, live rock of old had a hell of a lot of sponge and it always polluted tanks. Sure looked pretty and colorful at first but made a huge mess.

You are correct about the sponge, especially that beautiful purplish-blue kind, but I feel the trade-off was worth it. Much of the macro didn't stand a chance either under my care, as my skill-set and general knowledge was still pretty lacking then compared to now.

Nor did I mean to imply that what TBS is selling is the stuff of yore. I think the fact that TBS is considered to be high quality just illustrates the problem though. A few spectacular (if you are new to the hobby) and larger life forms (like gorilla crabs and mantis shrimp) get folks all hopped up, and while there is life to be found with the flashlight search at midnight, there isn't the diversity available from waters more exotic to me than Florida's.

I am a lot harder to impress these days than I was then as well. There is no chance that a bristleworm with a slightly different color than anticipated will send me racing around the house consulting all my reference books at 2am, wondering if this will grow into a sea monster that will drag me into my tank one day. And since the internet was invented (thanks Al Gore :) ) my LFS doesn't find me camped out on his doorstep with a pencil drawing of a critter (no digital camera then) looking for a name.

[OmarD]

Back in the "old days" before fragging became so popular. Most corals were sold on really nice pieces of LR - direct from reef. --- I can remember number of times buying corals more for the rock they were sitting on then the coral itself.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10797494#post10797494 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OmarD
Back in the "old days" before fragging became so popular. Most corals were sold on really nice pieces of LR - direct from reef. --- I can remember number of times buying corals more for the rock they were sitting on then the coral itself.

Oh yes, very true. I remeber all sorts of tunicates, soft corals, gorgonians, hydroids.

I remember once getting a bunch of weird hitchiker mushrooms that no one had ever seen before (ricordea :eek: )

[audio101]

It's not hard to get uncured live rock covered in different macro algae and softies. Although it seems impossible to keep most of them alive, but I guess that just demands more experience to maintain only a small amount of die off. Of course the live rock suppliers these days wont ship a piece covered in say mushrooms or any type of larger coral, seeing how some lfs's can charge a small fortune for them now. By the way do you know of any links or guides on how to keep macro algae alive during the curing process of uncured rock?

[revenant]

Right.. I hear the stuff from gulf-view.com (floridaliverock.com?) is totally covered in sponges and macro and more.. sometimes a mantis egg .. doh!! but it's some crazy stuff.. imo, takes a tank in a different direction.. if you want SPS and LPS then don't get that struff.. that kind of LR can be a tank/livestock of it's own almost. ;)

[audio101]

All of the Florida live rock appears the same though, you pretty much already know what to expect on the rocks.

[rustybucket145]

It's a ***** when we deplete our oceans to the point where even the rock coming out of it isn't the same..... Or at least the 'legal' rock.

Anyways, if your tanks in good shape you could put a piece of cinderblock in and it will be covered in coraline in a short time.

[audio101]

Thats how it has evolved pretty much, lfs's might as well be selling cinderblocks with the way their so called live rock looks.

[Mykel Obvious]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10800300#post10800300 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rustybucket145
It's a ***** when we deplete our oceans to the point where even the rock coming out of it isn't the same..... Or at least the 'legal' rock.


I think you hit the nail on the head there!!

It seems like a combination of rock being collected so fast that the lifeforms can't keep up, new collection practices and newer rules like "no visible corals on any imported rock" etc.

I would also hazard to guess that much of the "rock of yore" would be classified as illegally collected rock by todays rules...

The Florida rock does not have the same rules about visible corals, so it is not necessary to scrub the $h!t out of it before it's shipped... and IMO a lot of the real interesting hitchhikers are lost from foreign rock due to newer "pre-curing" methods introduced by people like Walt Smith (don't know anything about his rock, but the "spray it to precure and de-mantis shrimp it" sounds like you'd lose all kinds of neat life in the process)

Part of me agrees with barbra on the even if it's bad, at least it adds biodiversity to the mix idea... still don't want any mantis in my display tank, but would love a dedicated tank for one someday

JMO, YMMV