Ich!

[FishyMel]

Has anyone ever had an established tank suddenly break out with ich for no reason.

My 180 suddenly came down with ich. I have not done anything strange in this tank. I run protein skimmer, wet/dry, refugium, and UV sterilizer on the tank. My UV bulb was probably bad. It needed to be changed. Which I have done since I saw white spots but my fish are all getting sicker. I see no point in quarantining since everyone is sick.

Water parameters SG 1.022
Temp 81 degrees (no change here)
DkH 10
ph 8.2
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 20

I usually keep dKh at 14. This is a decrease for me, but it was gradual over the last month since the last water change. Could the dkh change do it? Nitrate at 20 shouldn't be a problem in a fishonly system. Any thoughts? I have not added or subtracted any fish lately or changed anything in the tank, diet or the way I care for everything.

[OnoIgotICH]

The only thing i can really think of is, ich was always in your tank, just not strong enough to do much, and when they finally find a weak spot they attack (UV bulb)

[mikey3165]

temp should be aroud 78 but nothing that would cause ich

[Puffer Queen]

I have and it is a pain......I had a tank for 10+ years, but only starting quarantining fish about 8 years ago and corals/inverts/rock about 5 years ago....

Bottom line if anything is added to the tank without quarantining - the tank is a ticking "time bomb".

Dr Stoskopf related that living in a tank with external parasites is like living in a house with fleas.....chronic stress. Chronic stress can weaken immune systems!

[emperior911]

didn't you just add that golden belly dogface? That might be your problem... The puffer could of brought ich

[johno4]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10882253#post10882253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FishyMel
I see no point in quarantining since everyone is sick.



I went through this back in May. Reguardless of what caused the sudden outbreak you need to treat it. If you want to save your fish you must qt and treat the problem. QT your fish and treat with either copper or hyposalinity. I prefer hypo b/c it is safer. Put you fish in qt with a salinity of 1.009 for at least 1 month and leave the display tank empty (no fish) for the entire time. This is the only way to get rid of the ick.

I now qt all fish and put them through 1 month of hypo even if they appear healthy. I have had absolutly no problems since I started to do this. I recomend you do the same. Good luck.

[thepudge]

That sucks. I just had a tank come down with ich too, right before my honeymoon no less. I am hoping everything holds out until I can get back and treat properly. I will never add a fish without QTing again. Ich is awful

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10882253#post10882253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FishyMel
Has anyone ever had an established tank suddenly break out with ich for no reason.

My 180 suddenly came down with ich. I have not done anything strange in this tank. I run protein skimmer, wet/dry, refugium, and UV sterilizer on the tank. My UV bulb was probably bad. It needed to be changed. Which I have done since I saw white spots but my fish are all getting sicker. I see no point in quarantining since everyone is sick.

Water parameters SG 1.022
Temp 81 degrees (no change here)
DkH 10
ph 8.2
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 20

I usually keep dKh at 14. This is a decrease for me, but it was gradual over the last month since the last water change. Could the dkh change do it? Nitrate at 20 shouldn't be a problem in a fishonly system. Any thoughts? I have not added or subtracted any fish lately or changed anything in the tank, diet or the way I care for everything.
Anything new without quarantine will almost 50% add something nasty in your tank, but in your case it is so easy to treat the tank with W/D filter . i will start with some formalin and copper mix .
I never had a problem in my 200G 14 years old Reef tank but i just lost my 10 Years old PBT to ick no other fish got the Ick..... but the PBT. In my case Ick is always present in my tank i never seen it but a stress always make it appear.

[thor32766]

yeah its usually present nd guess it just found a stress point and latched on.

[FishyMel]

I'm sorry for the confusion, but no new fish have been added without being quarintined. The tank has had the same stable group of fish now for about 2 monthes, and I don't plan on adding anymore. What I was getting at was that I am not going to take out any specific individuals right now to quartintine beecause they are all sick.

[FishyMel]

I'm sorry for the confusion, but no new fish have been added without being quarintined. The tank has had the same stable group of fish now for about 2 monthes, and I don't plan on adding anymore. What I was getting at was that I am not going to take out any specific individuals right now to quartintine because they are all sick.

[Freed]

Ok so no dkh won't cause ich. Ich causes ich. Because you say you are not going to treat your fish "because they are all sick", what is the point of this thread?

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10891065#post10891065 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
Ok so no dkh won't cause ich. Ich causes ich. Because you say you are not going to treat your fish "because they are all sick", what is the point of this thread?
I think Freed he said he is not going to quarantine anything now because they are all sick but he's better use some parasite kill medicine soon or they are all going to die slowly.

[Freed]

I don't see that he said that he was going to use any type of medication anywhere in this thread.

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10891266#post10891266 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
I don't see that he said that he was going to use any type of medication anywhere in this thread.
He better........ He has a W/D filter so it is so easy to treat .

[Freed]

What does a W/D filter have to do with treating ich?

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10892703#post10892703 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
What does a W/D filter have to do with treating ich?
With W/D filter you are able to treat the whole tank for any pathogens .
If like me you have a tank with live rock /or corals you can not treat the whole tank you need to take all the fish out and quarantine them separately. also the main tank had to be without any fish for six weeks so any parasites will die .
I prefer W/D filter for Fish only tank with a addition of a denitrator.
Easy to treat for any thing .

[Puffer Queen]

I do believe the tank in question is a fowlr so treating a tank with any porous material - rock, substrate, etc is contraindicated as porous materials absorb medications thus making achievement of therapeutic levels difficult. Many medications will affect the microfauna and cause a die off.

[Zoom]

I run protein skimmer, wet/dry, refugium, and UV sterilizer on the tank. My UV bulb was probably bad. It needed to be changed
He said he runs a W/D filter so still easy he can take all the rock out put it in a large trash can for six weeks and treat the tank with only the W/D running.

[Puffer Queen]

He can do that as long as he does not have substrate. Also when removing live rock, water parameters may become unstable as the live rock is adding some biological filtration....so depending on the bioload, the wet/dry may or may not be able to handle the bioload.

[thor32766]

if hes barebottom.

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10893623#post10893623 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Puffer Queen
He can do that as long as he does not have substrate. Also when removing live rock, water parameters may become unstable as the live rock is adding some biological filtration....so depending on the bioload, the wet/dry may or may not be able to handle the bioload.
So what is you suggestion then ?

[Puffer Queen]

If there is substrate in the tank - treatment will have to be done in a separate tank.

[wshive]

If absolutely nothing was added and nothing changed about the system, the ich was probably lying dormant as cysts and attacked a sick fish. Ich is like the cold in the sense that the germs are always around (unless you've previously completely eradicated it with hypo) and it will manifest itself when a fish has a drop in its immune system.

I think removing to a quarantine tank is best in this situation, even if all the fish are sick. If you hypo your main (which I'm assuming is the 200g FOWLR), after removing all your rock (and substrate if you have any) you'll have a tough time maintaining water quality unless you have some sort of adequate mechanical filtration on hand. In a smaller quarantine tank, if anything goes wrong, you can just do a water change. I imagine it would be tough to do say a 50% change on a 200g. Also, keep in mind that your skimmer will be useless in hypo, so no help there.

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10899055#post10899055 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wshive
If absolutely nothing was added and nothing changed about the system, the ich was probably lying dormant as cysts and attacked a sick fish. Ich is like the cold in the sense that the germs are always around (unless you've previously completely eradicated it with hypo) and it will manifest itself when a fish has a drop in its immune system.

I think removing to a quarantine tank is best in this situation, even if all the fish are sick. If you hypo your main (which I'm assuming is the 200g FOWLR), after removing all your rock (and substrate if you have any) you'll have a tough time maintaining water quality unless you have some sort of adequate mechanical filtration on hand. In a smaller quarantine tank, if anything goes wrong, you can just do a water change. I imagine it would be tough to do say a 50% change on a 200g. Also, keep in mind that your skimmer will be useless in hypo, so no help there.


No need to do a Hypo... formalin and copper mix will do it without any problems in the main tank it is a sure thing.... he/she just need to get all the Live rock and the crash coral sand out first, if is any in the tank system.

[wshive]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10899426#post10899426 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zoom
No need to do a Hypo... formalin and copper mix will do it without any problems in the main tank it is a sure thing.... he/she just need to get all the Live rock and the crash coral sand out first, if is any in the tank system.

There is debate as to whether formalin and copper are as effective as hypo. I believe there is research on hypo, but no conclusive research on formalin and copper.

Regardless though, formalin is poison. It's like fumigating your place for bugs. You could stay there while it's being fumigated, and it probably won't kill you, but it sure as heck ain't good for you. And it doesn't always get all the bugs. Using formalin on ich with fish in the tank is an analagous scenario.

Copper can be hard to get out of your system unless it's completely bare and you do a 100% water change . I don't know about anyone else, but it took me two weeks to fill my 180g with RO water.

IMO, using hypo in a quarantine tank is still the best overall way to go. I mean is it really easier to move hundreds of pounds of rock (and maybe sand) into holding bins then treat, then change all the water in a 200g display than to just move all the fish to a smaller quarantine?

[kalfsbeckj]

When my 210 came down w/ that from a new addition as long as everyone is still eating you're in good shape. Keep them well fed w/ Nori and other vitamin soaked foods.

Slowly put your temp on the warmer side to help speed the ich life cycle up 81-84 F. But if you do make sure you oxyginate the water real well. And do daily water changes syphoning from your rocks and sandbed. I did about 15-20% on a daily basis and it went away after about a week. Then I did smaller water changes every other day for another week after that just to make sure nothing would come back. Didn't lose a single one and now everyone is doing great. I rather spend a few bucks on salt than replace a few hundred bucks worth of livestock.

I'm just stating what worked for me.

good luck

[Freed]

Seems to me hypo is so much easier to do. Top off to the exact same spot a couple times a day. Hmmmm, that's not easy?

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10900464#post10900464 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wshive
There is debate as to whether formalin and copper are as effective as hypo. I believe there is research on hypo, but no conclusive research on formalin and copper.

All three of those methods are well researched. Each works if done properly and each has it's own set of pros and cons. Copper, will bind with calcerous substrates making it difficult to maintain therapeutic levels and those substrates will leach the copper back out long after treatment is over. Formalin, works best when treated daily just before day break and will also evaporate readily and give you nice toxic fumes in the house. Hyposalinity, well that's just using a little extra H2O, no toxicity problems to the user or problems with the substrate effecting concentration, however, it does require use of reliable and accurate hydrometer or refractometer. Also, has Freed mentions, it's real easy to maintain the proper level once set ;)

In all cases, the treatment can and will affect organisms living in LR and cause die off of those organisms that will likely lead to water quality issues. Hence, in any event it is best to treat in a seperate treatment tank or remove the LR for treatment.

[Freed]

That is so correct, billsreef. And thanks for the reminder, I just walked downstairs, turned the ball valve on my top off for five seconds to the exact level needed, closed it and walked back up here. Takes longer to type this than it did to top off my QT. Now copper on the other hand...

[FishyMel]

Please read the posts people, before responding.

You can't treat a 180g show tank that has live rock (150to 200 lbs) and a refugium(20 gallon refugium with dsb and macroalgaes, and snails and shrimp, among other inverts). All this is interconnected. You would wipe out the whole system. Even assuming that you could actually move 200 lbs of rock + 150 lbs of live sand somewhere else, how would you ever get the copper out of the wet/dry system and silicone in your tank?

. Do you know that if you put 200lbs of rock in trash cans, assuming you had so many trash cans and a climate controlled place to keep them with enoug space, , you would kill off a lot of the rock without proper lighting etc. also, your live sand would die. You can't take 150 lbs of live sand and stir it up and put it really deep in a trash can and expect it to live. You would kill lots of it, and you lose all the filtration these substrates provide to your fish. I have 6 fish who are 5 inches and bigger up to 24 inches for my moray. They rely on all this biological filtration provided by the refugium, the dsb and the liverock. You can't remove it. You would kill the fish just by the changes this would make to the system.

Removing the fish and quarentining in hypo is the best idea. This actually works, except that I have no way to keep 5 fish that are 6 to 9 inches in size and and a 2 ft eel alive in a 20 gallon quarantine. It would be the death of them just because of its inadequate size. I would need at least 75 gallons to house these guys even temporarily, as we all know that you can put 50 inches of fish into a 20 gallon salwater tank and expect them to survive for even a short time. I only have the ability to quarantine one fish at a time, so at this point, I am pretty sunk.

Other then reducing my salinity to 1.018(any lower will kill my macro and inverts) and doing frequent large water changes, I think I will have to hope that the immune systems of my fish kick into high gear and hopefully the UV sterilizer will help some too.

Thank you for your advice everyone. I appreciate the input. And, I agree with those of you who suggest hypo as the best treatment. I am not a fan of formalin or copper as these are poisons and very bad for the fish. Also, I have never seen proof that formalin is even an ich treatment. Copper has some effectiveness in my experience but it does get absorbed into the liver and not all fish respond positively to it. I have killed fish with copper in the past. And you never treat eels with copper. They can't handle it.

In terms of people suggesting that my fish weren't properly quarantined. That isn't true. (Doning flame retardant suit)Ich is in the system no matter what you do, ime. It is in the water supply. Unless you irradiate your water and all your substrate, it is in your tank. You can't add plants or rocks w/o introducing it to your system imo either. If your water parameters suddenly change, or something happens, the ich flares. I believe this is what happened. The DKH didn't cause the ich, but a change in it may have weakened the fish and allowed it to pop up.

[wshive]

I think I better understand your situation FishyMel, but you can still quarantine your fish. Don't risk not doing anything, or you could lose them all if things get really bad!

What about getting a few (maybe three?) 20 gal rubbermaids? You could keep two fish in each with large diameter PVC for cover. It would be a cheap alternative to a 75g. If you want to go bigger, Home Depot sells 32g round Rubbermaid trash cans for about $14 each in the garden section. Three of those is surely enough to house your fish. All you would need then is waterchanges and enough salt. Drs. Foster & Smith sells salt by the bucket w/o charging extra for shipping. Less than $40 for 180g worth (which is really 450g worth at 1.010sg)

Not trying to flame you, but if you were to quarantine everything (including non-fish livestock), then it is possible to avoid ich completely. But few people (myself included) are willing to quarantine things such as clean up crews for 4-6 weeks to ensure no ich gets in the system. Ich cysts can exist for quite some time w/o fish hosts. But not beyond 4-6 weeks, which is the key in quarantining against ich.

Also, FWIW, my Dad had a powerhead go bad and foul all the water in his 90g. He seriously overstocks. (I won't tell you how many fish he has, b/c I'd get flamed for just knowing him :eek1: ). But he moved all his fish to a 10g (yes, you read that right) w/ a small hang on filter for about a week while he cleaned up and changed the water and didn't lose a single fish. I don't think you're in quite as much trouble as you might think if you take the quarantining route. Good luck! ;)

[johno4]

FishyMel you can get ick out of your system read my post on the first page. If I were you I would use wshive's advise and get some rubbermaids to qt your fish. Do Not leave your system as is and hope for the best, you wont like the results. Get the rubbermaids and save your fish. Good luck

[Zoom]

We are suggesting to you but we did not know what is your system like .
Now i agreed with you you can not do anything in your tank the way you have it set up.
Do nothing ....... Look at my avatar RIP to ICK almost similar system you have and at the end i lost the whole fish population .
You need to take the fish out and treat them.....
My LFS use formaline and copper all the time with a high grade testing system for the copper .
Formaline is very unstable in the water but it will kill parasites in Contac .That is why you have to treat the tank in the day break every day for ten days so you can get the parasite when they are active in the water trying to find a host .
I try hypo and it work but you need to do it so slow that is very important bring the salinity down to 1009 . and slower to get it back up.
The problem i had with the hypo was my bio active filter was not able to keep up with the change of the salinity and the filter just die .
I think a large W/D filter will be better next time i had a larger hanged on filter and it was running for months before i start to lower the salinity .
The Ammonia in the tank was gone up fast and i was not only trying to keep the salinity at 1009 also trying to keep the ammonia low .
I just don't have enough time in my day to play with the quarantine tank that much . Copper and formalin i use now with a good colorimeter for the copper so i don't overdose and kill the fish so far works the best for ME.