Sump and fuge

[rschenck]

Here goes to you experienced people a really dumb question but why a sump and fuge? Is the sump just for overflo? I have a fuge but my husband is wondering if we don't need a tank for overflo. Is that the purpose of the sump? How do they connect? With my 75 gal tak which I had almost 2 years, we never had a fuge or sump.:rollface:

[Aquarist007]

a sump can be used as a place to put your protein skimmer and or phosban reactors etc. Plus it add more water to the total volume of your system and live rock can be placed in there instead of your tank allowing more swimming room. People that don't want a separate refugium section the sump off and run one right in there.
The refugium can be used for two purposes--added filtration using cheato algae and having an increased flow rate or for a greater variety of invertebrates(with a reduced flow rate)

running the two together allows you to regulate the flow better between the two of them---and the refugium also adds to the water column

eg 110 gal tank+ 30 gal sump + 30 gal refugium gives you 170 gal of water in your system allowing for the system to handle a bigger bioload of fish etc.

Here's my example to show you how they are connected--the water from the main tank is diverted into sump and refugium. The refugium empties back into the sump via gravity and its contents along with the sump water are returned to the main tank:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4520.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4519.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4527.jpg

[rschenck]

does the protein skimmer just sit in the sump and skim before it is pumped out?

[rschenck]

does the protein skimmer just sit in the sump and skim before being pumped back up? What happens if the power goes off?

[MR PALM BEACH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10890520#post10890520 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rschenck
does the protein skimmer just sit in the sump and skim before being pumped back up? What happens if the power goes off?

Yes the skimmer Is constantly skimming the water It sits In, If the skimmer Is not plugged Into a battery backup or generated outlet It will just have no power.

[Playa-1]

The sump is a place to put your equipment that you don't want showing on the main tank. It's also a great way to add additional water to the entire system. The more water you have the less volitile your water parameters will be. A fuge on the other hand is typically used as a type of a biological filter in conjunction with a mechanical filter. Many people use a fuge as a way to create a reverse photosynthesis system and a low water flow area to grow macro algea and pods. The macro algea helps to filter nutrients out of the water and restore oxygen and trace elements to the water. There are many ways to set these up and they do not have to be elaborate. I personally don't like the idea of pumps, wires, tubes, skimmers and all that junk hanging on the outside of my tank. I would use the sump to add water and to hide all the eye sores. The fuge is interesting when you start doing research about it. I kinda like the idea of growing pods and macro algea.

[Tswifty]

Here's a pic of what I have running underneath my 55g tank.

I also enjoy the benefit of not having heaters, filters, etc... hanging on the back of my tank taking up space in the display. Also a sump will allow excess capacity, which helps with the dilution of toxins in the water.

My tank is not drilled therefore I have to use HOB (Hang on the back) overflows, which pulls water from my display tank OVER the top of my tank (through a constant syphon) where it is collected in the overflow box, then fed through a 1"bulkhead down to my sump/refugium.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/165449Overflow_Running.jpg

Here's a picture of my sump/fuge running. The skimmer sits submerged in the sump, and is constantly skimming the water coming in from the main display.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/165449Sump_Running.jpg

The drawback of HOB overflows is that if the power goes out, the return pump will stop pumping water up to the display tank, which will cause the syphon on the overflow to break. Depending upon how low in your tank the box which syphon tubes sit in (black box in pic) will depend upon how much water will be syphoned down into your sump/fuge before the syphon breaks. This is why you always allow for excess water capacity in your sump.

The main problem exists, however, when the power returns. The pump will begin pumping water back through the return line up to the tank, and unless you have a self priming overflow unit. The overflow syphon will still be broke, and your pump will pump water over the top of your tank, onto your floor, eventually emptying your sump and burning up the pump once it runs dry.

This being said there are tons on fail safes, and measures that can be taken to prevent this. Such as auto-top offs, drilling bulkheads, self priming syphons, and strategically placed syphon break holes.

I don't know if this helps you out at all, but at least I explained where the water goes. haha.

[Aquarist007]

I really like your sump situation---if that return pump is not just submersible you could run a mineral mud/mango refugium there along side of the refugium---this is my next step :)

If the tank can be drilled and and an internal overflow box used then it would be worth it----that way you elimated the problems of priming and syphon breaks. In my case a small 1/8 inch hole in the lock line near the surface of the water breaks the syphon in a power failure and there are no primming issues when it starts back up.

[tynee]

I just installed an HOB on my tank, taking out the stand tube that was drilled through the bottom of the tank. Reason being, it was an eyesore in the center of the tank, took up space, and there was no overflow box around it (used tank, poor setup). capn_hylinur, could you elaborate on the failsafes I could install in case of a power outage, or point me to the right forum? I'm in Orlando, so we are all about power outages, gotten lucky this season thus far, however. I would rather do some DIY fixes than buy a large battery backup for my system, I am rigging up only a small one for air in case power loss is extended.
Thanks.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10894459#post10894459 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tynee
I just installed an HOB on my tank, taking out the stand tube that was drilled through the bottom of the tank. Reason being, it was an eyesore in the center of the tank, took up space, and there was no overflow box around it (used tank, poor setup). capn_hylinur, could you elaborate on the failsafes I could install in case of a power outage, or point me to the right forum? I'm in Orlando, so we are all about power outages, gotten lucky this season thus far, however. I would rather do some DIY fixes than buy a large battery backup for my system, I am rigging up only a small one for air in case power loss is extended.
Thanks.

this is just a failsafe for overflowing in case of a power failure

On the return (loc) lines inside the tank--high up just under the surface you drill a 1/8 inch hole in one of the loc lines.
When the power goes back the water by gravity is forced to fall back into the sump area. when the level in the tank hits the pin hole in the lock line the siphon is broken and the flow stops.
In my case it raises the level of the sump about 4 inches --that's all.
Its worked everytime and to others who have reported on Reef Central.

[tynee]

Ok, I already have the pin holes in my return lines. But on the siphoning drain lines on the HOB overflow, when the power goes off, they will continue to suck water out of the drain box in the tank and channel that to the HOB box and the to the sump until the water level of the tank is below the drain box teeth, then the tubes will quickly suck out the remaining water in the drain box and that siphon gets broken.

When the power returns, the pump from the sump will fill the aquarium through the return lines, but the tank's drain siphons to the HOB are broken, how do you prevent this?

[Tswifty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10894670#post10894670 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tynee
Ok, I already have the pin holes in my return lines. But on the siphoning drain lines on the HOB overflow, when the power goes off, they will continue to suck water out of the drain box in the tank and channel that to the HOB box and the to the sump until the water level of the tank is below the drain box teeth, then the tubes will quickly suck out the remaining water in the drain box and that siphon gets broken.

When the power returns, the pump from the sump will fill the aquarium through the return lines, but the tank's drain siphons to the HOB are broken, how do you prevent this?

You might want to check some of the DIY pages for creating your own. I know on www.melevsreef.com on his 29g reef page, he creates his own "self priming" overflow with a powerhead. and some aitline tubing.

If you don't want to DIY, then they sell self priming overflows. The drawback is you have to pay an arm and a leg for them.

Basically to get your syphon going again, you will need a way to suck the air out of the U or J tubes once power is returned. I may try a DIY like melev's version.

The cool thing with his design, is that since the powerhead is constantly pulling from the U or J tubes, and air bubbles that find there way into the tubes are also sucked out.

How much a rig like this affects flow through the U or J tubes, I couldn't tell you. I'm in a similiar spot as you though, and this seems to be the only way I found to restore the syphon if you dont want to pay a ton for a premanufactured one.

[bach2pilot]

Hey Capn,
Your setup looks great. I already have a refugium and was trying to figure out how to add a sump to my system. I was planning on running a pump from my sump to the fuge, then gravity feeding it back to the sump, but I like yours better.
My question is - Do you have any problem setting the flow rate thru the fuge? I see your valve on the supply...Does it come from a common manifold or a separate overflow? (Now that I look at it - it looks like a common one).

[Tswifty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10894225#post10894225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
I really like your sump situation---if that return pump is not just submersible you could run a mineral mud/mango refugium there along side of the refugium---this is my next step :)

If the tank can be drilled and and an internal overflow box used then it would be worth it----that way you elimated the problems of priming and syphon breaks. In my case a small 1/8 inch hole in the lock line near the surface of the water breaks the syphon in a power failure and there are no primming issues when it starts back up.

Hey capn,

I want to add some plants to help with filtering... What do you recommend, and what kind of lighting would I need? Also, what do you think the best substrate is? I just moved some sand and rock from the display tank into the fuge.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10897458#post10897458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bach2pilot
Hey Capn,
Your setup looks great. I already have a refugium and was trying to figure out how to add a sump to my system. I was planning on running a pump from my sump to the fuge, then gravity feeding it back to the sump, but I like yours better.
My question is - Do you have any problem setting the flow rate thru the fuge? I see your valve on the supply...Does it come from a common manifold or a separate overflow? (Now that I look at it - it looks like a common one).

common pvc from the overflow box--t offed-- then two valves to control flow separately to fuge and sump.
I am using my fuge to create more inverts for my system so the flow is really reduced through there--the trade off is I don't get as much filtration benefits from the fug. This is why I want another fuge in the sump --mineral mud and mangos for filtration benifits.
the beauty of this setup is I can easily t-off anywhere to add another component. This is why I went with the mag3600 pump--in the current situation I still am getting a flow rate of 2200gph and that would not be too effected by adding another component.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10899346#post10899346 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tswifty8
Hey capn,

I want to add some plants to help with filtering... What do you recommend, and what kind of lighting would I need? Also, what do you think the best substrate is? I just moved some sand and rock from the display tank into the fuge.

by plants do you mean macroaglae? If so cheato grows the best and I use a 25watt energy saver bulb from homedepot--but on 24/7

[Tswifty]

haha.. yeah thats what i meant... had a brain cramp and couldn't remember what the name was.

thanks

[Aquarist007]

In my sump I have deep sand bed and reef rock frag.

Two months growth with the light on 24/7

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4523.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4522.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4521.jpg

[Aquarist007]

compared to two months ago!!!
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4196.jpg

[Tswifty]

Is that just a normal desk lamp that you have your bulb in?

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10903127#post10903127 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tswifty8
Is that just a normal desk lamp that you have your bulb in?

yes

8.99 $ special--clip on

the manufacturer even threw in an off on switch;)

[tynee]

What types of inverts do you have in the macro algae fuge? How many per gallon? I tried keeping my light on 24/7 and I developed a lot of unwanted algae.

[Aquarist007]

honestly --I have not taken the time to check out their names--lots of variety though. Besides draining back to my sump I take out a cup full once a week and put it in the main tank.

In a fuge---doesn't all algae have a purpose?? reducing nitrates and phosphates---

I rent the room to anyone that shows up--LOL

[tynee]

ha, yeah true. i guess it's really not a problem, being an algea container and all. I like the idea of breeding your own inverts, think i may try that.

Thanks.

[Tswifty]

I installed as light yesterday on my fuge and got some macro algae from the LFS put into it. I'll try and get a pic posted today. My light kicks off a lot of heat so I have it on a reverse schedule from my display tank. I'm gonna go pick up some computer fans of something today to help with evaporation.

So what was the conclusion with inverts for the fuge? what do you recomment?

[rafa316]

yeah

[Tswifty]

Capn... how much flow do you have through your fuge. I'm starting to get a film on the surface of the water in my fuge. Ideas?

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10922608#post10922608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tswifty8
Capn... how much flow do you have through your fuge. I'm starting to get a film on the surface of the water in my fuge. Ideas?

the flow is about 1/8 as much as through the sump.

I get that once and while in my sump----- I use a power head in there for about an hr.
In the fug if the flow is low--I would just get a big spoon and pretend the fug is a soup bowl :)
Are you rotating the cheato ball once a week--this helps with that also.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10909953#post10909953 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tswifty8
I installed as light yesterday on my fuge and got some macro algae from the LFS put into it. I'll try and get a pic posted today. My light kicks off a lot of heat so I have it on a reverse schedule from my display tank. I'm gonna go pick up some computer fans of something today to help with evaporation.

So what was the conclusion with inverts for the fuge? what do you recomment?

change your bulb--go with the energy savers--mines a 25watt--no heat , no evaporation and its on 24/7

[Tswifty]

Hey Cap'n

I was wondering, since you have a split fuge/sump design if you think this would work:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/165449Sump_w_light_installed1.jpg

Here's the reasoning:

I do not have enough room in my return section to hold water in the event of a power failure, therefore if I can move my fuge to a seperate tank, I'll have more room in my return section to hold water.

I would run this with powerheads. Would this work??? All it would be doing is taking water from my intake section, and a powerhead would pump some of that into the 15gallon fuge, where another powerhead would be located to pump it back. The tanks would be level so one powerhead wouldn't need to be stronger than the other.

Basically I can do this with extra stuff I have laying around... Rather than purchasing a large tank to make a sump out of right now.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks!

[rschenck]

If the water is suppose to go thru the fuge more slowly, how can the return pump be on one side of the fuge and the incoming overflow water on the other end of the tank?

If I have a tank for fuge and one for sump, what would be the best way to bring water in and out to keep it all circulating together?

[bach2pilot]

Hey Tswifty,
I thought about using two pumps to move water between my sump and fuge, but getting the flow rate would be tough. If you think about it - even if it's just a tiny bit off - after hours and hours - something will run dry or overflow (or both).
After some research and thought, I figured out the best way is to gravity feed one to the other. (Like someone on RC said "gravity does not fail".) I built a small stand to raise my fuge (and after I drill it and it will gravity feed my sump.) I'm putting it all together this week.
What I keep going back and forth on is how to feed the fuge. Some guys use a line off the return pump, some off the overflow, but I am leaning toward using a small pump to move water from the sump to the fuge.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Drag Racer]

What I keep going back and forth on is how to feed the fuge. Some guys use a line off the return pump, some off the overflow, but I am leaning toward using a small pump to move water from the sump to the fuge.

I dont see why that wouldnt work. As long as the outlet from the fuge return is higher than the sump water level its returning to it should work fine. But I think the reason most people split of the overflow line fron the main tank is so the stuff your growning in the fuge can benifit from the junk coming through there vs. after the skimmer. Thats just what I think. take it how you will.

[Tswifty]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10956851#post10956851 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bach2pilot
Hey Tswifty,
I thought about using two pumps to move water between my sump and fuge, but getting the flow rate would be tough. If you think about it - even if it's just a tiny bit off - after hours and hours - something will run dry or overflow (or both).
After some research and thought, I figured out the best way is to gravity feed one to the other. (Like someone on RC said "gravity does not fail".) I built a small stand to raise my fuge (and after I drill it and it will gravity feed my sump.) I'm putting it all together this week.
What I keep going back and forth on is how to feed the fuge. Some guys use a line off the return pump, some off the overflow, but I am leaning toward using a small pump to move water from the sump to the fuge.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

That's exactly what ended up happening. I could not get the flows to match, close but no match. So I ended up puting a bulhead in and running plumbing and letting gravity pull water from the fuge. Right now I am using a powerhead to run water from the sump into the fuge. However I have been advised against this, and will be re-plumbing my intake and "T"ing it off this weekend

Check out my thread on this, there's a lot of conversation about the layout

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1201902&perpage=&pagenumber=3

Here's how it looks now. The black PVC pipe is the gravity fed return fom the bulkhead in the fuge.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/165449NewSump.jpg

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10937221#post10937221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tswifty8
Hey Cap'n

I was wondering, since you have a split fuge/sump design if you think this would work:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/165449Sump_w_light_installed1.jpg

Here's the reasoning:

I do not have enough room in my return section to hold water in the event of a power failure, therefore if I can move my fuge to a seperate tank, I'll have more room in my return section to hold water.

I would run this with powerheads. Would this work??? All it would be doing is taking water from my intake section, and a powerhead would pump some of that into the 15gallon fuge, where another powerhead would be located to pump it back. The tanks would be level so one powerhead wouldn't need to be stronger than the other.

Basically I can do this with extra stuff I have laying around... Rather than purchasing a large tank to make a sump out of right now.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks!

if you raise the fuge and split the line coming from the refugium, add two values after the t---then gravity flow will work on both--so you don't have to use separate pumps.

[Aquarist007]

for eg:
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4520.jpg