Mandarin questions...

[sophos9]

Bought the Mandarin on the 1st October, it looked in good shape. My tank had a lot of copipods and amphipods in it. I've also thrown 1.2kg of LR rubble in the Juwel filter box and have topped the rest with Chaeto which is getting good water flow and good light, all in a bit to create a 'poor mans' refugium. Have approx 60lb of LR

I've got loads of differing food to try and get the mandarin to eat dead foods, these are lobster eggs, mysis, krill, bloodworm, enriched brineshrimp, ON Formula1 small pellets.

I acclimatised the mandarin for about 3hrs and dropped it in, it hid in the rocks.

For feeding, I have turned off the powerheads and fed the other fishes across the other side of the tank then using a syringe, I've blown food near to mandarin and around the surrounding rockwork, to date I have not seen the mandarin eat any - its taken some people 2 weeks to get them to eat so I'm not giving it up

Since then (over the last 5 days) I have not seen it eating, the copipods have disappeared so it must have been. The thing that bothers me a bit is that it has spent the entire time in the same area of the tank, it does come out in the substrate but has not even investigated the other 95% of the tank

Does anyone else have any tips/hints

Many thanks

[aquabod]

ive kept mandarins for years,they are naturally reclusive,will just glide around rock,looking in the live rock for something to eat. you can tell a mandarin that isnt eating,they look unhealthy and skinny. if you have live pods in your tank,it will find them. i also noticed that most of the mandarins ive had stay in one area of the tank and takes a while to investigate the rest of the tank. most of mine have accepted frozen brine in time. i found that if you can feed them live brine first they almost always go for it,then you can trick them into eating frozen( i use hikari,vitamin enriched). not sure how big you tank is,but dont be tempted to put more than one in your tank,unless its a very large tank with lots of lr.one thing i'll mension about the negatives of the mandarin is that i have lost 3 maybe 4 to jumping out an aquarium,especially at night!! the fuge will help harbor a food source for them. i have also seen mandarins show interest when i add " reef bugs" to my tank for my corals. i think ' reef bugs' are a mark weiss product. they are live bugs that come alive when u add them to salt water. petsolutions.com sell them. hope this helps!! good luck

[sophos9]

Aquabod, thanks for your reply. Seems that I should not worry that much about its behaviour then which is good.

I've read several postings about them 'jumping' out, luckily I have a full enclosure so no fish can jump!

Will have to hatch some fresh brine shrimp - is the same feeding technique used (syringe) and once they are eating live brine mix them with frozen?

Seems we cannot get reef bugs in the UK which is a pain.

Do you notice more activity during the day or night?

Many thanks

[sophos9]

Buzjerry, Hi

Thanks for your reply and tips - they are well appreciated! Will get some live brine and eggs on the weekend and start hatching!! Fingers crossed will get it onto frozen soon...

[gimmito]

I agree with the other posts regarding using live brine shrimp first then weeding them to frozen. The only other thing I would recommend is using garlic extract and selcon with the brine shrimp.

[sophos9]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10914470#post10914470 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gimmito
I agree with the other posts regarding using live brine shrimp first then weeding them to frozen. The only other thing I would recommend is using garlic extract and selcon with the brine shrimp.

Thanks for your reply. I'm going to get some live brine shrimp today and start the 'weening' today.

I've noticed today its stomach is looking like its started to invert a little.

[snorvich]

Unfortunately, it is likely that it was caught with Cyanide. If so, the prognosis is not positive. Wish I could give you better news.

[sophos9]

Bought live brine and bloodworm today, also got some Seachem Entice to try.

Today, I have not seen the Mandarin - dont know if this is good or bad... Its either found its way around the tank or its been cleaned up by the hermits?!?

[ZIN22]

mandarins are touchy but with the pods in your tank you will be fine for food along with live brine shrimp a couple times a week.
But as posted above if he looks plump all is good.. good luck hope you find him.
My mandarin chasses my wrasses from time to time and no way can I add another mandarin to my 75 gal. tank. Already tried that twice..

[pmjfuture]

Cyanide has cost me alot of money in the past. i was hoping it was fazing out.

[snorvich]

Mandarin fish are often caught, especially in certain areas, with cyanide. The fish looks ok but tends to stay in one area as opposed to hunting for copepods. It has been my experience that they NEVER recover. I have two mandarins in my current tanks and they were great from day one; it took five tries to get two.

[sophos9]

Quick update.....

Well it seems the mandarin did not make it, I feel I bought a bad example, since the first time it went in the tank, it never even moved around, just sat in the same place. I have also seen what looks some little remains so I think its pretty conclusive that the hermits and fish enjoyed some expensive feeding.

Not giving up, I went to my proper LFS only to see the most active, good looking male mandarin so I spent some time speaking to one of the guys (used to work at TMC). Now when I started this thread, I said the previous mandarin looked great - I now knew that what I thought was a good example was actually not.

I've bought the mandarin, he is all over the tank searching for pods. I've added several types of food to see if he is interested - knew I would not have much luck as he needs time to explore etc

Over the next few days will keep on trying with mysis, brine, lobster eggs, daphnia and Ocean Nutrition

Will keep this updated. I think you guys were right - the first mandarin was a victim of cyanide.

[sophos9]

Thought you may like to see the new fish....


http://lh6.google.co.uk/sophos09/RwlMqhMCSjI/AAAAAAAAA2U/Crfvg80jBNQ/s800/Mandarin.JPG

[ZIN22]

Nice looking mandarin... good luck

[snorvich]

If he is moving around and you have adequate copepods, the prognosis is good. Mine also eat mysis but more haphazardly than intentionally. They are very slow feeders so if they happen across mysis they eat, otherwise they eat copepods.

[sophos9]

Hi...

He is doing great, ate his first bits of live brine shrimp today, very very active - pecking all over the rock and substrate!

Will keep this thread updated.

[snorvich]

I hope that you have an adequate food supply for him. You do not say what your tank size is. Without copepods, they will NOT do well.

[sophos9]

Steve, Hi

The tank is a 50gallon with 64lbs of live rock, a smallish refuge with a 600lph pump pulling water over chaeto and live rock rubble.

I'm dosing live phyto to feed the colony and am going to be stripping down another tank to create additional colonies...

There is competition for food, a peacock wrasse although the rock is piled in such a way that the wrasse cannot enter (and the mandarin can) so pods are protected.

I know that some will a 50gallon is too small, I have however read many people being totally successful in smaller tanks.

These are very early days, I hope they continue well and everyday I'm spending way too much time nurturing the little fella!

[sophos9]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10934994#post10934994 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by buzjerry
I do not agree. If you get him to eating frozen food, he will do fine.

I've read a lot of articles, feeding brine only seems not to work longer term as the nutrition is not good. If I can get him to eat a good combo of food with some additional flake/pellets then I do not see any reason why he should not be fine.

Once I get him fully onto it, I will set a dosing pump up to drop food in the tank over the day.

[ZIN22]

Buy a couple bottles of copepods/tiger pods and put it in your tank at night also add one to your fuge they should multiply just fine or just add another in a 3 months.

[sophos9]

Update!!

Home from work, got some live brine and frozen mysis, dropped it onto the rock near to the mandarin, he came straight over and started eating. He ate too many bits for this to be a coincidence which is great - he is starting to learn that food comes in other forms!!

Will continue to update

[snorvich]

Mine will eat mysis (one of them) but still, since Mandarins are grazers, they will survive long term with copepods but probably not with just frozen food. Buzjerry, do you have a Mandarin that you have kept longer than six months?

[darkcirca]

Try bloodworms. Mine wouldn't touch anything, tried all sorts of frozen foods, then a few days ago I decided to add some bloodworms. I've never seen him chase food like this. Frozen ones work best, he never went after freeze-dried or anything.

Thought I'd give that a run. I buy rotifers and pods every couple months to make sure my population is replenished.

[Brian24]

I have two mandarins myself and I usually only see them midday and only for a little bit. They tend to be reclusive fish that like alot of live rock that has lots of old growth on it.

[Hogfish77]

Good luck on your mandarin. I recently bought 2....a male and a female and they've been great so far...always searching for copepods around the rocks and stuff. Really cool to observe. I heard 2 males wouldn't work but a male and female would. So far so goOd. They still haven't paid attention to the frozen treats yet. I may have to try live brine as well. :cool:

[sophos9]

I've read many articles of people keeping Mandarins in Nanos with great success and I've read articles about people that have 150gal tanks and cannot keep them....

My first mandarin died, I'm 100% this was due to external factors out of my control. The second is doing great but its very early days, I'm doing everything in my power to ensure its transition onto frozen foods and will keep doing so.

I'm interested in the nutritional make up of a single copipod, we could use these values to make up a artificial mix to add to frozen food, we can then be confident that the nutritional make up is pretty close and as long as the mandarin is eating - we can remove this variable from the list of root causes of death.

Does anyone know the nutritional values?

Cheers

[urbanthreatz]

It took my mandarin about a week to venture out of the one corner i introduced him into, don't be worried, now he is all over the place scrounging for pods anywhere and everywhere throughout the tank. He still stays true to his favorite corner of the tank but he will move about when he's picked that area dry.

Also, mine was kind of a picky eater at first, especially since i don't have a refugium, i was worried about being able to feed him correctly. I started buying the frozen spirulina shrimp cubes and he LOVES them! I've seen him body check my hawkfish and my clown against the glass to get them. Try it, everyone that i know has used them and had good results.

[sophos9]

Right, I've looked through some journals to try and find the facts about why copepods are 'better' than other foods.

The first thing we know is that they are alive, so the freeze process should not leach amino acids/minerals out

Here are the findings...

Acartia clausi
Protein 63.12%
Amino acid - Vit C >500 ug g-1
Fatty acid composition 33.94%

Artemia
Protein 60%
Amino acid - below dietry recommendation
Fatty acid composition 3-4%

Mysis
Protein 60.0%
Amino acid - Unknown
Fatty acid composition 8%


Cyclop-Eeze
Protein 60.0%
Amino acid - Unknown
Fatty acid composition 34.0%


So the differences seem to be around the amino acid profile and fatty acid composition. This shows brine shrimp to be deficient in both areas, mysis being marginally better

The above strengthens the fact that the right additives should also be provided. Its great to see that Cyclop-Eeze is on face value, comparable!

[650-IS350]

My mandarin has been eating cyclopeeze granuals and for the past 5 months soft sinking pellets made of krill and other vitamins..

I drop it in the tank and he comes running for it...

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n230/delsol650/Picture089.jpg

[sophos9]

Wow, she looks great - with what you are feeding, she should do really well.

Did you do anything to get her to eat it or was it luck? Do you make the pellets yourself?

[650-IS350]

I feed him, and all tank inhabitants this...

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2754129&cp=2767036.2769126&fbx=0&fbn=Brand%7CHBH&f=Taxonomy%2FPET%2F2769126&f=PAD%2FBrand%2FHBH&fbc=1&parentPage=family&keepsr=1

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+7927+15535&pcatid=15535

I squeeze it to make it softer, but already is though... for my LPS, zoos, palys... they take a pellet each.

I started with the frozen cyclopeez, the cyclopeez granuals and finally the HBH softsinking pellets..

Not luck, trained him.. see melev's mandarin diner.. I didn't follow this but heard of good results with this method..
http://www.melevsreef.com/mandarin_diner.html

[wrasseguy2]

it took along time to get my mandarin to eat frozen but he does eat it like crazy now
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee90/detguy212/mandarin7.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee90/detguy212/mandarin9.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee90/detguy212/mandarin6.jpg

[sophos9]

Great pictures!

Wow... big update!

Bought some Brine shrimp with Omega 3 (HUFA's now close to copepods) and I also bought a product called Garlic Guard by Seachem.... I tried feeding some frozen earlier, he ate a couple of bits but nothing to should about.

A couple of hours later I got some more and added some Garlic Guard and hell, he went mad for it eating every piece it could see!! So its offical, he is onto frozen brine enriched with spiralina and Omega 3!!

[BrianD]

buzjerry, do not post again on this thread. You have a PM.

As for the mandarins, people will do what they want to do, and always convince themselves they are the "exception". I hope for the mandarins sake they are right.

[sophos9]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10944270#post10944270 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BrianD
As for the mandarins, people will do what they want to do, and always convince themselves they are the "exception". I hope for the mandarins sake they are right.

I guess this applies to all fish not just mandarins, bad conditions, bad food, water quality etc. There are some real horror stories about some of the conditions!

Research is important and I'm doing loads especially around diet, he is looking great, very active, colours are vibrant - Will carry on doing what I'm doing...

[Zaita]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10941126#post10941126 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by buzjerry
[B]2 mandarins at 6 months in a 40 gal tank. No more pods for them.

While you may not be adding pods to your system, it is a certainty that they are still eating copepods as a primary food source and supplimenting it with prepared foods.

Please be aware that a mandarin will spend all of its time hunting and eating (when not sleeping or parading for a mate). They eat small amounts, continuously.

Unless you are feeding your mandarin throughout the day it is highly unlikely that the mandarin will be able to consume enough to sustain it.

While it is good to see your mandarins have past the 6mnth period, they maybe decimating your pod population which will ultimately lead to their demise. If they had been doing this for 3-5yrs then I would be happy to say you have a good thing going, but most mandarins will die within the first 12months of being placed into a system, so you are only half-way there.

While I think it is awesome that your mandarin (esp green) is accepting prepared foods, please do not assume that they will stop eating copepods continuously. For such a small fish a mandarin can consume a large amount of food.


If you are telling me that my mandarins are going to die soon then I'll have to not believe you. They are FAT!!! Not only are they fat they are active all day and have grown half a cm in length.

As I said, they will have been actively hunting copepods. It is a good ideal to maintain a constant feel of your population and potentially get a refugium or a copepod-culturing system going so you can add more to your tank.


OH yeah should also mention that my female had a sunken stomach when i bought her. OH should I also mention that she is back to normal with a HUGE FAT stomach. OH should I also mention that she is active and swimming around. OH should I also mention that I only have 50+ lbs of live rock for 2 mandarins.

Unfortunately many mandarins delivered to people have a sunken stomach. Especially to overseas locations (such as NZL) because they have to go through long quarantine periods in new systems without a sufficient food source. This does lead to the demise of alot of them, but not all.


I made this argument before. Nutrition wise my clowns eat the same thing and are fine for 11 months and have grown. Even if they are absorbing different amounts of nutrients into their systems. The amount the mandarins eat should provide enough nutrients.

Clownfish will happily go without food for many days, they are also opportunistic eaters and will graze on other types of food/algae when it is available. Just because you are not feeding them, doesn't mean they are not eating :)

nursed back by the frozen foods I feed

I would say being put into a tank with an untouched pod population would've played a much higher role in the mandarins recovery than eating prepared foods.

I'm a scientist and I hate people that think there is only 1 way to do things. People are trying to tell me that the amount my mandarins eat will not sustain them for the longer period of survival. Maybe you should look at it in a different way. If my mandarins eat 5 times the weight of pods in frozen food and only extracts 1/5 of the nutrients we would be right at par.

I agree that it is actually a good idea and highly beneficial to have your mandarin eating prepared foods. This provides an opportunity to give them the extra nutrition they maybe lacking. It will also ease the burden they will put on the pod population slightly.

But please, look outside the factors you control. Just because you are not feeding your fish does not mean they are not eating. It definitely does not mean that your mandarins are not eating 95% pods and 5% prepared, and are not decimating your pod population.

You dont need to add pods to your tank, they will come in on live rock, other water, NSW and many other sources. They will happily re-produce in your tank and are a good part of your cleanup crew. It is advised that you do not add a mandarin to a tank for atleast 6-12mnths to give the pod population time to get to a number high enough to sustain itself from such an eater like a mandarin.

In my opinion, and until I see research data that proves otherwise, you cannot sustain a dragonet fish purely on prepared foods. And if you could, I suspect it would take multiple feedings (perhaps hourly)
for the mandarin to take in enough nutrients for it to survive.

I do not feed my mandarin prepared foods, I do not have any plans to try. I believe that if I cannot provide an environment that will support enough copepods to sustain the fish, then responsibly I should not keep one.

Sorry guys, didn't mean to go into rant-mode. But I feel a lot of people underestimate the appetite of a mandarin and the importance of micro-crustaceans like copepods.

Sophos, I wouldn't rely on your mandarin eating prepared foods. If you have enough copepods to sustain the mandarin that it should live happily and fat in your tank. If you see the mandarin once a day then thats a good thing. They are a fish that will mind their own business and concentrate on eating :) A gorgeous fish though, definitely my favourite!

Scott.

[Zaita]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10945212#post10945212 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by buzjerry
[B]The female's stomach remained sunken for about 2 months after getting her. I agree she may have been eating pods and they still hunt for pods daily, however, I do believe it makes up for <10% of their diet especially since I have 2 mandarins and 2 clowns which also feed on pods. I completely understand that the pods regenerate on constant basis. If I'm not mistaken it has been noted elsewhere that mandarins consume some algae as well.

I would say that with 2nd day feedings it would be like 95% pods and 5% prepared foods. If your mandarins are awake 12hrs a day and they should be snagging a every 1-5 seconds then the majority of their diet is copepods.

I am unaware of clownfish eating copepods, however I would not be surprised but this wouldn't be something that they would consume a lot of.

I am unaware of any writings that indicate mandarins will eat algae, they will snag copepods from algae very happily though.

I do not think it was the pods the allowed her to gain her weight back since when I increased my feedings and the amount fed, that is when I really saw all the weight return.

This would be more of a coincidence than anything, it is awesome you have had a mandarin fatten up so well.

I'm hoping what pods they find when I am not feeding them will further help them. I am not saying pods are bad or if not to add them if thats what you want to do. My opinion is just that it is unnecessary if you have them on well balanced diet.

You have to understand that pods are essentially a little bug. This bug eats crap from your system, so they are highly beneficial part of your tank. They are very nutritious. These are not something you consciously add to your tank unless you are topping up your numbers (specifically for a mandarin).

Copepods will exist in a system without a mandarin and are a very good part of your cleanup crew.

BrainD --> go ahead and ban me you are close minded as well. The beauty of multiple emails and the ability to register for new accounts on this website. I'll be back.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I just don't like it when people are close minded to alternative methods.

I don't think a ban would be appropriate. But I do think you need to look seriously and read a little on what makes a mandarin such a difficult fish to keep alive for 12mnths+ in a tank.

Sit down and spend some time watching your mandarins for an hour or 2 (don't disturb them) and watch their feeding habits. Mandarins have a metabolism that requires them to constant eat nutritious foods in order to survive.

There is no doubt you are having success supplementing their primary food source (pods) with prepared foods, but try not to think the pods are supplementing the food you are providing.

Without prepared foods a mandarin will survive, but without copepods they will die. Copepods are extremely important to a mandarin.

For the record. I do not add copepods to my tank and I do not feed my mandarin prepared foods. My tank was 12mnths old before I considered adding a mandarin, and I ensured I had a large pod population and enough LR to sustain this population with the addition of a mandarin.

[Zaita]

Ahh also for the guys posting photos.

It is alot easier to get a spotted mandarin to take prepared foods than a green mandarin. Nobody is quite sure on why this is :)

[darkcirca]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10945734#post10945734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
Ahh also for the guys posting photos.

It is alot easier to get a spotted mandarin to take prepared foods than a green mandarin. Nobody is quite sure on why this is :)

Funny as I see move green mandarin's here eat prepared food (generally frozen). Watched a couple feedings at some LFS's and they put some mysis and bloodworms in tanks and they took frozen. I was surprised. Mine also takes bloodworms, frozen only. I do however still go the copepod route. He's still getting back up to weight from his last owner, but doing better than he had been.

[wrasseguy2]

i waited for at least a year before i added my mandarin and i watch him eat pods all day long and without them he would not be where he is today..he looked bad for a couple months but really made a turn and was real fat before i ever got him to eat mysis or anything else..i have never head of mandarins eating algae or seen that written anywhere before.i have not added any pods for quite some time but there are always tons in the fuge and main tank..getting him to eat the mysis was not something i really tried to do it just happened one day i guess after feeding the tank for so long he decided to see what was up with that mysis...Zaita i have always been told the same about the spotted..my friend has had his green mandarin for almost 2 years and it will not touch prepared foods at all only pods

[BrianD]

Posts (and user) have been removed.

[Zaita]

I think everyone is entitled to have an opinion. But please base that opinion on fact and experience. Experience within reason too. If your mandarin is still under 12mnths old, then it's still likely that it will die (more than 50% do).

Making something up and proclaiming that it is the given is not going to help and will only cause problems.

Wrasseguy2: Mine is a female green mandarin. She won't even look at anything but copepods. The tank is fed cyclopse, brine, mysis, flake, pellet, nori and spiralina flakes.

darkcirca: Greens will eat prepared, but it is said that a spotted will take it alot easier. If you can get a green mandarin that eats prepared then it is definitely a good start. But yea you are right to rely on copepods as the main source of food :)

BrianD: I hope I am providing some good, useful information for people with mandarins or hoping to get one. It is sad that more than 50% of them will die in captivity and there is currently no commercial breeding of them.

[wrasseguy2]

i feed the tank cyclopse mysis and pellet..the mandarrin will eat all of that..i feed the other fish..which are all warsses except for a couple bar gobies..and the squirt some to the mandarin and he will suck it all up and then moves back on to the rocks eating pods again..it is real cool to sit and watch the mandarin for a long time he never stops always on the hunt

[Zaita]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10946395#post10946395 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wrasseguy2
it is real cool to sit and watch the mandarin for a long time he never stops always on the hunt

Yep! They have such dedication to their work! If only I could be that dedicated haha

[BrianD]

Zaita, you are doing a fine job :)

All I ask on this forum is that people express their opinions in a civil manner. When I receive multiple complaints, I pay attention. Speaking down to people or insulting them will earn removal. I asked the person removed to refrain from posting in a certain manner, and he refused my request.

[darkcirca]

Yea I lost 2 mandarins in the beginning. Both were within a few days of getting them, so I believe there was something else wrong with them (they were nice and plump too). I'm hoping this one does good as he's been with me since July I believe. He's slowly gaining his weight back. You can't see the sunken sides anymore and is gradually growing out. With the addition of the bloodworms I'm hoping he will start gaining even more weight. I feed once in the morning with bloodworms, and again in the evening, that way I give the mandarin a chance to eat a little bit extra when he first gets up and before he sleeps. Everyone else gets other stuff throughout the day too, but he won't touch anything else.

Gotta say I love the spotted ones though. I've heard spotteds take prepared food easier, just haven't seen or experienced it locally. We just seem to get the greens that like it.

[sophos9]

Thanks for all the help, I created this thread to try and create some factual information, never the intention for people to get banned.

My question is what makes a pod a sustainable living source to the mandarin?

I added the macro nutrient profile a few posts ago, the sparse info on the web would suggest that protein levels over all groups are pretty much the same, amino acid profiles are not conclusive as we do not have enough info on the products - the main difference being in the HUFA's (highly unsaturated fatty acids), the level of Omega 3 in a pod is approx 3.75 times more than mysis and 7.5 times more than brine

Other variables included volume of food source and availability

I'm going to try and find the complete macro/micro nutrient profile of copepods then try and highlight the differences, personally I feel we will see a amino and HUFA difference, if this is the case we can easily replicate this and move on to mitigate the next variable

[Zaita]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10948239#post10948239 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sophos9
[B]Thanks for all the help, I created this thread to try and create some factual information, never the intention for people to get banned.

Yea, it was unfortunate. But you have to look realistically at what you are trying to achieve and not just proclaim something because it "appears" to be working without considering all the other variables.

My question is what makes a pod a sustainable living source to the mandarin?

Look outside just the nutritional profile as an answer to this question.

Availability is going to be a big factor. Copepods are readily available to a mandarin, all they gotta do is go looking. When and where they want to eat them. They spend every waking moment eating.

Nutrition. You don't have to gutload Copepods like you do rotifers or BBS. They have a natural nutritional value that is ideal for a mandarin. Doing a nutritional profile would be very difficult, if not impossible as there are currently over 14,000 known types of copepods.

I added the macro nutrient profile a few posts ago, the sparse info on the web would suggest that protein levels over all groups are pretty much the same, amino acid profiles are not conclusive as we do not have enough info on the products - the main difference being in the HUFA's (highly unsaturated fatty acids), the level of Omega 3 in a pod is approx 3.75 times more than mysis and 7.5 times more than brine

In reality, Brine shrimp has about nutritional value as candy-floss :P Thats why products like Selcon are popular to gutload them. It's a pity we cannot get Dr. Adelaide Rhodes into this discussion as she is an expert on Copepods.

Copepods are a food source utilised by many marine fish (incl Whales) because they have such a high protein value. This is also why as hobbyists we must be aware of what fish will dine on them as to protect our mandarins vital food source. Some common ones are flame angels, bangaii cardinals, 6-line wrasse, pipefish and many others =\

Other variables included volume of food source and availability

Bingo!

I'm going to try and find the complete macro/micro nutrient profile of copepods then try and highlight the differences, personally I feel we will see a amino and HUFA difference, if this is the case we can easily replicate this and move on to mitigate the next variable

I am not going to be closed minded and say that it is not possible to find a food that is suitable, and a feeding regime that will work for a mandarin so they won't need copepods. But I would lump them into the same group as a panda :P

I think, instead of looking at the Copepods as a food source people should look at the metabolism of the mandarin. This would surely give us a better indication of their requirements than having a "Trial and error" approach to substituting their food sources.

[seapug]

I have two Green Mandarins in my 90 gallon tank (male and female), both will be in there one year in November. For whatever reason, both took to PE Mysis immediately upon being introduced into the tank. They love the stuff so much they chase it down as it gets blown around by the current.

From what I've read, the primary nutritional deficiency mandarins suffer from in captivity is protein. Though very small, copepods are extremely high in protein. Live adult brine shrimp (what is usually sold in stores) is very low in protein (and just about everything else, too). That's why, even though a mandarin will eat pounds live brine, they can still starve to death.
If you are trying to get a mandarin to eat prepared foods, try a high protein, high quality whole-type like Hikari or Piscine Energetics mysis. The PE Mysis are almost 70% protien-- the highest percentage I've found in a frozen food. Also, unlike SF Bay brand and similar kinds, the mysis are not mutilated and transparent-- they are-whole bodied and usually still have their eyes intact. I think the apperance of the food triggers the feeding response in the mandarins.

Everyone seems to have an opinion on these fish, but this is definitely what has worked for me.

[Zaita]

I would definitely like to try PE mysis, But I don't think we have it available in NZL =\ Sucks living on an island lol.

[darkcirca]

Any idea where to find the nutrition information? Figured I'd try to look up some things while I'm here for bloodworms. I've tried mysis, doesn't work. Garlic enriched, nope. Just bloodworms. Better than nothing though.

[650-IS350]

From what I've seen green targets take in prepared food more easily than physcedlic's.

mine eats 6-7 pellets.. will still look around for pods but a lot less than he used to previous to feeding prepared foods. She has also gained significant weight compared to how I got her first... stomach caved in and scrawny.

now very healthy.

[fejus]

So am I to assume my dream of having a Psy Mandarin in my 46G tank and 15G refugium is pretty much crushed after reading this :( man that was like one of the main fish I was hoping to get >_<

[Zaita]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10953336#post10953336 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fejus
So am I to assume my dream of having a Psy Mandarin in my 46G tank and 15G refugium is pretty much crushed after reading this :( man that was like one of the main fish I was hoping to get >_<

fejus: 46g + 15g matured should be more than enough to sustain a mandarin. Because the refugium is large it will allow ALOT of pods to live and as long as they can get into the main tank you should be fine. Alot of problems come from people putting them into 30g RSM tanks, as these have no sump or refugium.

darkcirca: No links sorry. From what I am aware however, Bloodworms are like 99% water and only marginally better than brine shrimp. I am a big fan of Cyclopse-Eze as this is vitamin enriched, or gutloading BBS :)

delsol650:
Synchiropus splendidus - Green/Blue Mandarin
Synchiropus picturatus - Spotted Mandarin
Both of these are commonly referred to as Psychedelic, so that term causes a lot of confusion.

Also be aware, that there are 2 other true Dragonet fish available to us. They are commonly known as the Scooter Blenny and Red Scooter Blenny. All 4 fish are infact Dragonets in their behavior and eating.

HTH.

[fejus]

That makes me happy :-D

[Zaita]

Fejus: do WAIT until your tank is atleast 9mnths old. Since your living in USA you have quite alot of advantages. You can order copepods online to stock your tank and keep the supply up. You can also order Phytoplankton that you can dose into the tank and refugium to feed the copepods.

Many ways to keep a mandarin fat with copepods. :)

[darkcirca]

Yep being in the US has its advantages. I always order copepods and phyto online. Ebay or reefers I find via forums. Fairly helpful, sometimes pricy depending who you get.

I've tried feeding all sorts of other things. He has no interest. He's got his pods and rotifers, and is getting fatter, the addition of something else is still a great note. I've been working with him on eating other things, hopefully it'll pay off eventually. I'll try to buy that stuff you mentioned. I'll look into ordering it maybe. Thanks :)

[Zaita]

Good move circa. It would be nice if we have such options available to us in NZL. Only 2 people are known to have Biosecurity approval to culture rotifers and phytoplankton outside of research labs (and I am one of them :)).

So it's a work in progress. I am hoping to start culturing some copepods from one of the tanks to dose into the large tank. No need for it but then they are useful to have around regardless. The more you have the better it will be.

[darkcirca]

I tried the culturing thing. I was able to culture the rotifers, but the phyto, well that didn't work out. I just gave up and added all the rotifers to the tank. I'm actually out to buy more this week. I can still see them in there, but I just want a boost. Any good suggestions on what else to feed this guy, or well attempt to feed? Specific brands and everything, I can just order online. I'm lazy, and the LFS are way too pricey here.

[Zaita]

Personally, If i was living in the USA. I would just buy Copepods every now and then. In a 90g tank I would say add some maybe every 3 months? Initially add 2-3 doses into your fuge but that should be WAY more than enough to sustain 1-3 mandarins I'd say.

I say a mandarin eats alot, and this is true compared to other fish. People just stick em in a new 30g and expect food to magically appear :P However, topping your tank up every couple of months with some pods is going to be very beneficial. ALOT of fish (incl clownfish) eat them.

For culturing Phyto. I have 12x 2L Glass flasks that I can sterilize in an oven. From there I use RODI water and add Salt, then boil and let to kill to ensure no algae or other nuisances are going into it. Add Phyto and F/2 Food and put next to a light source for 8-12hrs a day.

[darkcirca]

I might have to give the phyto another try at some point. I've added copepods I believe 2-3 times since July (when I picked him up). He's finally gaining more weight and isn't skin and bone. I just feel the Diamond Goby is going to get a lot of them (he's got a giant mouth and I know he's eating most of them). I add them whenever I see a good deal on them that way I have more than enough. I still like the option of other foods to help out. Might as well let the poor guy have a few different things to eat.

[Zaita]

I wouldn't worry bout the mandarin needing multiple foods. Copepods are the highest source or protein in the ocean.

I'd be trying to feed your goby something else to keep him occupied. But yea every couple of months a top up is def the way to go aye.

And it's finally good to have a proper open discussion about the feeding of a mandarin. :) They are my fav fish, and 2nd fav critter (after my CBS :D)

[darkcirca]

I have to say, I really like my diamond goby. The sand sifting thing is the best thing. You can try feeding him, but the second he realizes the mandarin is eating, he wants what he has and has even nipped towards him. He's a little feisty, but I love him. Mandarins are pretty. I think I will try to work with mysis at some point just to see. I will continue to give bloodworms 2x a day (morning/night) just to give something else to eat if he wants it along with his copepods, everyone else seems to like it too.
Thanks for your help. It's nice to have some decent people out there. I've only done this stuff since January, but I feel like things are working out great. I wouldn't have done another mandarin if it wasn't really cheap and sitting in the hands of someone who I don't even think was feeding it.

[Zaita]

Yea. I have only been in marine for 2 years. However my entire reason and research for the last 6 mnths has been on the keeping and breeding of mandarins.

It's actually sad how much I have read about mandarins, and listened to in podcasts from everything like phyto, rotifers and copepods :P It's the one fish I am very familiar with now so it's good to help other people learn and to give them a better chance of keeping the fish alive.

I am currently looking for a male to mate with my female mandarin :) hoping it goes well

[snorvich]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/542/101063image008.jpg

You mean like this . . . :mixed:

[snorvich]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/542/101063image010.jpg

Or, perhaps, this . . . :)

[snorvich]

Getting them to mate, given the right circumstances is not that difficult but trying to catch the eggs out of the water column and then getting them to hatch and raise the fry is MUCH more problematical.

[darkcirca]

Those are some beautiful Mandarins!

[fejus]

Awesome guys thanks for the help I have learned a great deal about care for them from this thread :) I was planning on waiting at least a year before I got him/her.

Thanks again!
-Paul

[darkcirca]

Goodluck when you do eventually get one. If you've already got a refuge setup with chaeto you could easily start adding copepods/rotifers to get the culture going. Might as well start early that way you are ready when you do get one.

[Zaita]

snorvich: hey man, Yea I am aware of less than a dozen people in the world who have successfully raised mandarin fry.

My 520L tank has been designed specifically around hosting a pair of mandarins for breeding :) This isn't something I have thought "hey lets get her a bf" :P I have spent the last 6 mnths getting my tank designed, built and ready for the 2 mandarins. This includes filling it with LR completely from an existing tank and feeding the copepods Phytoplankton to boost the numbers.

I am fortunate that I am able to deal with a marine biologist from the NIWA research centre here in NZL with any questions I have. Even got to go and check out how they raise/breed crayfish :D YUMMY!

[snorvich]

Well, you will probably need a separate tank for the fry. I have not gone this route (yet). I think you will need to establish a rotifer farm to feed the initial brood but there are almost certainly other requirements; I just have not taken my investigation that far.

[sophos9]

Thought I would update this thread with good news...

The mandarin is doing great, excellent health and figure. There is no target feeding, the mandarin eats whatever is in the tank.

All this sustained in a 40g UK tank using a Juwel filter box as a mini refuge holding live rock rubble and chaeto...

8 months may not seem like a celebration but the general misconception is that a mandarin wont live more than 6months in a small tank!

Thanks for everyones input on food...

[NirvanaFan]

Good to hear about the mandarin. They are beautiful fish.

I've tried to get mine to accept target feeding, but it doesn't want anything to do with it. It does seem to like formula 2 pellets that have sunk to the bottom though. I should be getting formula 1 pellets in the next few days, so we'll see if he likes those as well.

[momolicious]

If your tank already has alot of pods in the main and refugium theres no need to buy more pods before getting a mandarin right? since pods will die off anyways from being overpopulated

[Zatko]

Will a mandarin eat what appears to be tiny starfish?

I noticed my brittle starfish passing a clump of some nasty looking stuff from one another a few days ago. I thought one just was regurgitating some food or excreting some waste. A couple days later, I've got quite a few tiny starfish looking things, maybe a half a millimeter long, with 5 tentacles. Maybe they reproduced? One was a banded, while the other was a red brittle, so I thought maybe they could cross-breed. I do also have Haitian live rock, so they may have just been hitch-hikers.

Just curious as to if mandarins, or anything, would eat these buggers.

[melev]

This thread has been nominated for Thread of the Month! If you liked it, be sure to vote!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11953022#post11953022

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10922657#post10922657 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Mandarin fish are often caught, especially in certain areas, with cyanide. The fish looks ok but tends to stay in one area as opposed to hunting for copepods. It has been my experience that they NEVER recover. I have two mandarins in my current tanks and they were great from day one; it took five tries to get two.
Sorry I didn't cath this post early on as it's just not accurate. Most mandarins are caught with a little sling made out of a hyperdemic needle or the likes. They shoot it thru the dorsal fin usually but miss quite often and hit the very upper "back". Anyone who has dealt with major fresh imports of them has seen the evidence on a few at least. Most heal extremelly quickly though so most don't get to see it that often. Having spent nearly 10 years bringing them in I've seen it a bunch of times. I have pics of the sling some place and others have posted pics of them hunting using this method.

Mandarins don't react to CN/dope/majic/juice/what ever you want to call it like other fish. Their major slime coat helps protect them as dose the fact they clam up in the presences of CN not allowing it to flow thru thier gills like most fish would. Having reconized this early on, the doper/juicers/squirters quickly stopped wasting the expensive CN and adapted thier capture methods.

[SpiritRift]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11954502#post11954502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
Sorry I didn't cath this post early on as it's just not accurate. Most mandarins are caught with a little sling made out of a hyperdemic needle or the likes. They shoot it thru the dorsal fin usually but miss quite often and hit the very upper "back". Anyone who has dealt with major fresh imports of them has seen the evidence on a few at least. Most heal extremelly quickly though so most don't get to see it that often. Having spent nearly 10 years bringing them in I've seen it a bunch of times. I have pics of the sling some place and others have posted pics of them hunting using this method.

Mandarins don't react to CN/dope/majic/juice/what ever you want to call it like other fish. Their major slime coat helps protect them as dose the fact they clam up in the presences of CN not allowing it to flow thru thier gills like most fish would. Having reconized this early on, the doper/juicers/squirters quickly stopped wasting the expensive CN and adapted thier capture methods.

very interesting info.



Great thread, I have a 3 month old 30g system with 45lb live rock and no fish and i see so many pods I was sure I could keep a mandarin. The good info in this thread has led me to believe I should wait some more. Thanks guys.

[Arati]

I am new to SW , but I wanted to add a little something I learned from freshwater, actually from breeding Guppys.

When hatching brine shrimp, they are incredibly nutricious for the first few hours, before the egg sack is gone. I freeze them in this newborn state. They are tiny but will put bulk on a fish verry quickly.

My tiny spotted mandarin, doesnt seem to eat any prepared food, other then this. I know its not any good for long term care, but if you need to get some food to your mandy fast this might help.

My tank is teamign with pods. We have names for the differnt pod families in the fuge. So the prepared feedings are just for insurance, incase of future emergency.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/aratifingers/th_mandy.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v693/aratifingers/?action=view&current=mandy.flv)