Raising magnesium to control algae

[Fishbulb2]

Hey guys,
I've heard of people raising their magnesium (to like 1500ppm I believe), to control Bryopsis. Is was wondering if anyone had a link to such a thread where this is discussed or if anyone has tried it with valonia. I have a valonia outbreak that I want to get rid of and am not having much luck. My phosphates and nitrates are undetectable but I just can't get it to go away. What are the drawbacks to elevated magnesium and how long does the process typically take?
Thanks,
FB

[davidryder]

Here ya go:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1113109&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

[Fishbulb2]

thanks a ton

[dreamreefer]

i believe 1500 ppm should be okak.Mg needs to be really high to become toxic...

[starsbravo]

is bryopsis the same as hair algae?

[Echidna09]

Sry dbl post

:rolleyes:

[Echidna09]

Yes sir; Bryopsis is the scientific name.

[MCsaxmaster]

Bryopsis is one of hundreds of genera of filamentous algae.

[Serioussnaps]

Watch your N and P as well along with raising your ph.

[Fishbulb2]

Well, everything I read from the thread above showed that the valonia stayed around as the bryopsis died off. It didn't seem effective against bubble algae so I haven't bothered trying it. Although I did add 3 emerald crabs to my tank and they have started having some impact!

[Serioussnaps]

You can try some carbon dosing(vodka, sugar) as well....watch it die off with glee!

[Fishbulb2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11031979#post11031979 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
You can try some carbon dosing(vodka, sugar) as well....watch it die off with glee!

Really? With valonia? I've never heard this before. I've always heard valonia can not be starved out and that it will survive even in pristine water. I can never measure NO3 or PO4. Although (and I suspect this is purely coincidence), I did start dosing vodka just as I added the emeralds. And the valonia are going away.
FB



PS. I hate pulling off the stupid bubbles from the suction side of my tunzes. Oh well.

[cutegecko3]

low nutrient algaes such as bryopsis can grow faster from certain heavy metals.GFO will reduce your phosphate levels and heavy metals at the same time.

[MCsaxmaster]

Uh, no, heavy metals do not increase the growth rate of any sort of organism.

[burris]

"bubble algae" includes several genera. The big solitary bubbles are usually Ventricaria and the little bubbles that form big colonies is usually Valonia.

"hair algae" also includes several genera. Bryopsis has feather-like fronds, pinnately branched. Otherwise it is something else, maybe Derbesia.

[coralnut99]

Though tedious, I think manual removal, and controlling phosphates will do a better job than your Mithrax over the long haul. Mithrax will eventually become like 95% of all other crab species; an opportunistic omnivore. Meaning that they eventually develop a taste for things like snails, other crabs, shrimp, and small sleeping fish. I'm glad to see that fewer Sally lightfoots are sold as part of "clean-up crews" since they can get huge, and devour snails at an alarming pace. I think selling Mithrax should come with some warning too.

[hahnmeister]

I hear some rabbitfish/foxface will eat volonia. Im in a similar situation... I run a good skimmer, carbon, phosguard... but still, I get that colonial valonia just covering some rocks like you wouldnt believe. I was hoping raising the Mg would help with it as well.

That other thread only seems to address Mg/bryopsis... not Mg/valonia.

[Fishbulb2]

Unfortunately it's even worse. There's a few reference to people who have tried it in that thread and it seems to specifically not kill any of the bubble algae types. In the same tank, a few people in that thread watched their bryopsis die away as their valonia was unaffected. I'm having good luck with the crabs so that's what I'm going to try to stick with for now. The key with them seems to be to make sure they don't get access to any other food whatsoever. Bubble algae seems to be a last resort for them.

[dreamreefer]

so what level of Mg is good to take out bryopsis?

[Fishbulb2]

well it appears to be 1600ppm, but this has to be with either Kent Magnesium or Epsom salt. There seems to be suspicion that the elevated sulfate may actually be responsible and not the actual magnesium. Don't use magnesium chloride, it didn't seem to work for a lot of people.
FB

[coralnut99]

Magnesium chloride as in MagFlake?

[Fishbulb2]

Yeah don't use that (according to the thread linked above), go with espom salt. Dirt cheap at any pharmacy or grocery store. Again, the elevated sulfate seems to be key.

[coralnut99]

Thanks!

[dreamreefer]

fishbulb,

i've always used seachem mg, which i think is magnesium chloride. what's the dosage like on the epsom salt? thanks.

[MCsaxmaster]

Has anyone considered that the concentration of Mg or sulphate has nothing to do with the abundance of Bryopsis. Afterall, there's no reason to think there should be any relationship ;)

[Fishbulb2]

I don't think the idea is that your levels of Mg or SO4 will give you bryopsis. It's just that raising them way above NSW concentrations definitely kills off the Bryopsis. The relationship is grossly elevated Mg with EPSOM or Kent mag equals no more Bryopsis.

[MCsaxmaster]

Why? Why would elevated Mg or SO4 be in any way harmful to Bryoposis or any other algae?

cj

[Fishbulb2]

I don't know why. I also don't know why Raid Ant Bait kills ants, but it does. I believe a thread full of first hand experience by people who raised their Mg to 1600 pm and watched their Byropsis completely melt away. Again, this is algae that they had for months or in some cases even years and suddenly it was gone within a couple days of raising the mag. This is with a lot of people. Obviously it works, I just don't know why. Read the thread. It's pretty hard to imagine it just suddenly died on it's own for no reason.

[45commando]

There is a "sticky" thread that shows that elevated Mg levels are harmful to Bryopsis.It also appears that it seems to only affect bryopsis sp. & not other forms of algae.I have done a few google searches & there have been a few lab type results posted that seem to support the evidence.I currently have an outbreak & have just started to raise my Mg levels.Hopefully I will be able to report back with good news.Apparantly the boosted Mg directly interferes with the bryopsis' normal processes,without affecting most other lifeforms(some people have reported loss of snails).HTH

[45commando]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11049851#post11049851 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
Uh, no, heavy metals do not increase the growth rate of any sort of organism.
also there are definately some heavy metals that do contribute to growth,such as molybdenum/strontium for corraline algae growth.

[cutegecko3]

yes that is true but mcsaxmaster will deny it to his grave.haha.

[dreamreefer]

mcsaxmaster, why not?

[MCsaxmaster]

There is a "sticky" thread that shows that elevated Mg levels are harmful to Bryopsis.It also appears that it seems to only affect bryopsis sp. & not other forms of algae.I have done a few google searches & there have been a few lab type results posted that seem to support the evidence.I currently have an outbreak & have just started to raise my Mg levels.Hopefully I will be able to report back with good news.Apparantly the boosted Mg directly interferes with the bryopsis' normal processes,without affecting most other lifeforms(some people have reported loss of snails).HTH

There could be a lot of things going on, and there's no reason to think that somewhat elevated Mg or SO4 is in any way harmful to Bryopsis (or much else). There do tend to be a lot of impurities in magnesium salts though, perhaps one of those is responsible?...

also there are definately some heavy metals that do contribute to growth,such as molybdenum/strontium for corraline algae growth.

Holy heck no. Firstly, molybdate is a nutrient used by nitrogen fixers in miniscule amounts, so it most certainly isn't a heavy metal, and it is a nutrient only to N-fixers. Coralline algae don't use it whatsoever. Strontium is incorportated into the skeletons of calcifying organisms at about the same concentration as it occurrs in sea water (though there might be a bit of fractionation). There is no evidence whatsoever that it increases the rate of growth of any organism. By your logic lead, mercury, and uranium should increase the growth rate of coralline algae :eek2:

cj

[45commando]

So are you saying no organism utilizes heavy metals?

[MCsaxmaster]

I'm saying no organism uses heavy metals as a nutrient. Heavy metals are variably toxic, therefore increased abundance of a heavy metal can result in anything from no harm to severe harm to an organism depending on concentration and the ability of the organism to detoxify the heavy metal.

cj

[TylerMoore]

isn't magnesium sulphate used to fetilize plants because of how well it disolves in water (this is also known as Epsom Salt, used in this hobby as well)? I'm pretty sure magnesium is essential in the developement of chloroplasts, so I would assume that Mg actually benefits photosynthetic algae. Am I wrong in this inference? You can raise Mg with epsom salt, as it disolves fairly well in water... something like magnesium sulfide hetrahydrate or something (when placed in water).

On that note, I don't think raising Mg levels will get rid of Bryopsis, although I am not sure of the effect of extremely high concentrations of Mg.

[TylerMoore]

isn't magnesium sulphate used to fetilize plants because of how well it disolves in water (this is also known as Epsom Salt, used in this hobby as well)? I'm pretty sure magnesium is essential in the developement of chloroplasts, so I would assume that Mg actually benefits photosynthetic algae. Am I wrong in this inference? You can raise Mg with epsom salt, as it disolves fairly well in water... something like magnesium sulfide hetrahydrate or something (when placed in water).

On that note, I don't think raising Mg levels will get rid of Bryopsis, although I am not sure of the effect of extremely high concentrations of Mg.

[TylerMoore]

isn't magnesium sulphate used to fetilize plants because of how well it disolves in water (this is also known as Epsom Salt, used in this hobby as well)? I'm pretty sure magnesium is essential in the developement of chloroplasts, so I would assume that Mg actually benefits photosynthetic algae. Am I wrong in this inference? You can raise Mg with epsom salt, as it disolves fairly well in water... something like magnesium sulfide hetrahydrate or something (when placed in water).

On that note, I don't think raising Mg levels will get rid of Bryopsis, although I am not sure of the effect of extremely high concentrations of Mg.

[steve9]

If you put a large amount of snails and mitrax crabs they will become very good at cleaning hair and red slime /bubble algae from your tank....this only happens if you have what seems to many as to many....you need very large turbos to trim dowm the hair then all the snails can do the job for you....you remove the snails and crabs as they get large as they will turn over corals....sallylightfoot crabs are one of the best hair algae eaters their are,if you look at their small claws they can not catch any heathty fish....Most of the people on the net give bad advice or make simple algae problems into chem problems....keep adding small snails and crabs as you remove the large ones and you will never have any problems....

[cutegecko3]

credible scientist have done credible research and have concluded that heavy metals do help to increase growth of algae.and yes it was heavy metals including aluminium,and copper.it sounds crazy to me but i cant deny their results.

[MCsaxmaster]

Tyler,

Yes, magnesium is an essential nutrient, but there is a TON of Mg in sea water, and relatively little is needed. Algae are never going to be Mg-limited in sea water--they'd be almost as likely to be water-limited ;)

Cutegecko3,

Yes, of course copper is needed. It is an essential micronutrient. Only very small amounts are needed though (not a problem since it is usually in very short supply). Heavy excess of copper is quite toxic though. I'm not aware of any organism that uses aluminum as a nutrient. Would you please provide references demonstrating aluminum as an essential nutrient?

Chris

[cutegecko3]

sorry if i have confused anybody.but no one has claimed metals are nutrients they are neccessary elements.every known life form needs them,so do we.you can simply read the back of a bottle of centrum vitamins or ask any doctor and he will tell you without them you will die.algae arent much different if these metals arent replaced they will die too.sorry but my memory isnt very good but i believe it was in an issue of coral magazine and i believe i read an article on rc as well.

[majesticangelfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11063781#post11063781 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
There could be a lot of things going on, and there's no reason to think that somewhat elevated Mg or SO4 is in any way harmful to Bryopsis (or much else). There do tend to be a lot of impurities in magnesium salts though, perhaps one of those is responsible?...
cj

Agreed. :thumbsup:

[MCsaxmaster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11067320#post11067320 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cutegecko3
sorry if i have confused anybody.but no one has claimed metals are nutrients they are neccessary elements.every known life form needs them,so do we.you can simply read the back of a bottle of centrum vitamins or ask any doctor and he will tell you without them you will die.algae arent much different if these metals arent replaced they will die too.sorry but my memory isnt very good but i believe it was in an issue of coral magazine and i believe i read an article on rc as well.

Some metals are essential nutrients. Without them an organism will die. Other metals are potent toxins. With a high enough concentration an organism will die. If you do not differentiate the two...well, good luck to you ;)

cj

[Fishbulb2]

Boy has this thread taken an absurd turn.

[MSU Fan]

Back to Mag/Bryopsis discussion -

One belief from that thread is that the sulphate from the Epsom Salt or Kent Tech-M is being used as a substitute food source for the Bryopsis, instead of its usual phosphate/nitrate dinner.

Since sulphates are not on the usual menu, the Bryopsis is gorging itself on food it somehow can't utilize properly. So it starts to die off. This demonstrates why there has been almost no success using magflake (or is it dowflake?) because that is magnesium chloride (no sulphate).

So while the suggestion by the op in the other thread is that raising the mag level killed the Bryopsis, it is more likely that the magnesium is just the easily measurable portion. Even then, the levels people had to raise their mag level to varies from 1400ppm to 2100ppm depending on the tank, time, amount of Bryopsis, and probably which variety of Bryopsis you are dealing with. Oh, and the amount of its normal diet available during the treatment period.

It seems to work, and I will be trying this shortly since I have both Bryopsis and Derbesia in my tank. I don't think that there has been any conclusive evidence against GHA, but hey, one can hope right? :)

[Fishbulb2]

Yup good luck. I agree that the sulphate is the more likely candidate since the Magflake doesn't seem to work. It's still convenient to measure the Magnesium as you go along though since you can easily deduce how much sulfate you are adding as well. Measuring the Mag also gives us a guideline for others to use as well, requiring that the supplement is the same (Kent or EPSOM).
good luck, I finally just used a small herd of emerald crabs and they wiped out all of my bubble algae. I'll leave them in for a few months, then they get the boot.

[MSU Fan]

Thank Fishbulb2 - I'll post some results, but it generally takes a week or so for any real results...so see you in a week or 2.

[starsbravo]

what is a good mag test kit to buy in your opinion?

[MSU Fan]

I don't have one. I am going to borrow a friends. My understanding is that the Salifert kit is the easiest to use. However, they are tough to find since they are usually backordered...

[Fishbulb2]

I love my seachem kit. It includes a reference so if you suspect something is off, you can test it. It is a complicated kit though with many many steps. But I think it's necessary to be more accurate (by first precipitating other ions that can interfere with the mag reading).

[MSU Fan]

I don't know how that differs from the way the Salifert kit works, I only know that the Salifert kit is easier to use.

[jessezm]

Just FWIW, I didn't see this thread before I decided to raise my MG levels to kill a patch of Briopsis. I used Magflake (mg chloride) to do it and it worked just fine. Using a seachem test kit, my readings went from 1150 to 1450 over a period of 3-4 days and the algae was gone.

So mark one person for which mg chloride worked successfully... The reason I didn't want to use epsom salts was I didn't want to raise my sulfate levels that high.

[MSU Fan]

Congratulations - you should post in the other thread, since there seems to be almost no one with that kind of success with the mag chloride.

[MSU Fan]

Well, an update. I borrowed a mag kit from a friend, so that I have some way of measuring what I am doing.

So, my parameters are as follows:

Sg 1.024
PH 8.3
Nitrates 0
Phosphates 0
dKH 7
Ca 380
Mg 1020

I used to dose Kalk in my topoff, but stopped recently due to changing to a basement sump. That has been running for about a month now, so everything is settled in nicely.

I am going to again be adding Kalk in my topoff, starting tonight, and wait another week before starting to increase my magnesium. I want to make sure that everything is stabilized before I add any other additives. Again, I will report back in a week with or so with my tank parameters, so that we can track all the changes. Sorry for the delay, but I have had enough loss in my tank recently to make me wary of changes...

[Fishbulb2]

What brand or type of mag additive will you be using? Also you should get some snap shots of your various algal type before doing this we can see which stay and which die.

[MSU Fan]

I am going to use Mrs Wages Pickling Lime as the kalk additive in top-off, and then Epsom Salt as the mag additive to raise it to 1,500. I'll post some pics of the offending alga either tonight or tomorrow.

[madadi]

i had bryopsis for almost a year and it was gone withing 2 weeks after much much frustration! i used epson salt, raised it to well over 1500but thats because i overshot, i didnt use a test kit because i had a hard time finding one at the time. i would recommend to go slow so not too overdo it and hurt something else that the mag treatment was not intended for. use a mag kit. salifert is easy to use and accurate.

i haven't seen any bryopsis for at least 4 months. id say it covered more then half of my tank at the worst point. i have no doubt in my mind the mag treatment is what helped, id still have a bryopsis tank, not a reef tank without it. now as far as the magnesium being the miracle cure, im not sure. maybe something in the epson salt other then it helped, maybe not. i dont have a scientific experiment backed up by documentation to trow in the conversation but it worked and im happy. if you have bryopsis don't hesitate to do it ASAP. it wont hurt your tank if everything else is in check, when i finally tested my mag level, it was more like 2000 and it was like that for months

also, two weeks after the magnesium was dosed 30-40% of my sand turned into a brick, im not sure if that was a result of the high mag levels or if it made something else come out of solution. i do dose kalk and run a calcium reactor so that might have done it, but the sand was fine before the mag treatment.

[imsqueak]

I lost "my favorites" during a recent hard drive replacement. Anyone have the link for the site that shows ie: my mg is X, my tank volume is # and I want to raise Mg to Y using Z product?

I've been using lab grade Mg to no avail on my hair algae. I have epson salt under the bathroom sink so I may as well try that...

[Mark75]

I think this is what you want.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605

[Fishbulb2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11231266#post11231266 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by imsqueak
I lost "my favorites" during a recent hard drive replacement. Anyone have the link for the site that shows ie: my mg is X, my tank volume is # and I want to raise Mg to Y using Z product?

I've been using lab grade Mg to no avail on my hair algae. I have epson salt under the bathroom sink so I may as well try that...

The lab grade mag that you had, was it a salt? If so what was the anion associated with it? SO4, Cl, ect.

[imsqueak]

Yea, that was what I was looking for. Now I have 1290ppm Mg of lab grade Mg on Salifert and want to go like 1700 with Epsom salt (because my lab grade isnt slowing my hair algae). That leaves little added from Epsom. I suppose I'll have to use water changes and epsom to convert my mg levels from lab grade to epsom. Right? Any other alternatives I'm overlooking?

fyi, Ca 350 (I dont supp much/enough Ca and it shows), Alk is 8.3 KH (both tested "right now")

[Fishbulb2]

Sounds like you have the right idea. My guess would be that the lab grade salt was really MgCl2 and the MgSO4 has been shown more effective. I would do the water change and use epsom. The SO4 may in fact be what's killing the bryopsis.

[imsqueak]

Not lab grade SALT, it was lab grad Mg found by club member who does govt environmental studies. A bunch of us got together for a group buy a couple years ago.

None the less, purity didnt help. Looking forward to whatever Epsom can do to help.

[ouuduy]

so let me get this straight ? is Bryopsis a fancy way of saying hair algae ?

[dendro982]

Bryopsis and hair algae are not the same, look and behave differently. My bryopsis has fine fern appearance - looks good, but it went for a world dominance.

I used Magnesium sulphate (Seachem Reef Advantage Magnesium), it worked very slowly (~1.5 months) and only on porous surfaces, not on the glass, plastic, or cured epoxy putty.

[MetalReef9]

great thread!!!

[45commando]

Hi,just wanted to post that I tried the elevated Mg levels(I ran Mg at 1,700 using Tech M) for a few weeks & the only thing it affected was my astreas,conch & trochus snails.After keeping the Mg levels elevated & having no effect,I tried running the tank/fuge with no lights for a week.This drastically cut back the Bryopsis,but then as soon as I went back to using lights(even on a reduced schedule)the Bryopsis returned.Today,I added 2 sea hairs (1 in fuge area & 1 in main tank).These guys are destroying the Bryopsis & I realize that they are not the cure(take care of the source etc),but after fighting this stuff for the last few months & doing everything I could (phosphate,nitrates,silicates etc all are undectable),it is a sight for my sore eyes.

[MCsaxmaster]

45commando,

Actually, I'd suggest that they, and other grazers, may well be the cure. Algae goes bananans on natural coral reefs if the grazers are removed. Nutrient availability, in most cases, is not the limiting factor in nature, or in aquariums. It is the grazers in both situations that favor corals and coralline algae over more palatable algae. Indeed, the "source" of the problem have indeed been too little grazing, not overabundant nutrients.

Chris

[Grunt007]

My Results-
I've had Dictyota algae for over 2 years.! I would take rocks out scrub them, even boil them and it would return in the same spots a few months later. Nothing would touch it. I read this thread, upped my Mag to 1500 and VIOLA! it's all but gone! I'm amazed. I've not changed a single other element of my tank equipment or husbandry. Seems to good to be true, but corals all look fine. Been several weeks now- fingers crossed.

[steven_dean17]

A well kept fuge will eliminate both Derbesia and Bryopsis. No matter what's causing the phosphate levels, you must remove them from the system to prevent these and other problem algae. Algae eating creatures do help at first, but continue to add to the phosphate level as they poo the unprocessed algae back into the systems.

[calkrog]

just wanted to let everyone know the results of battling bryopsis in my tank using tech-M.

I was using OceanPure Pro salt and had high mag to begin with due to the salt. mag was at 2000ppm and bryopsis was unaffected. I then switched to reef crystals, got my mag down to 1700 doing a pile of waterchanges and started dosing kent tech-m. once i hit 2100 ppm i stopped and waited. at first i thought it was not working as i was not getting the quick results others were, but now two weeks later the bryopsis is almost gone. it has worked great. i have been battling bryopsis for 8 months with a GFO reactor and it removed the hair algea, but not the bryopsis. THANK-YOU TECH-M !!

[Grunt007]

Good to hear calkrog. It took me a couple weeks to start noticing effects also.
FWIW I started doing weekly 10% PWC's again, as usual, w/ RC's and the dictyota made a come back in my tank. The PWC's lowered my Mag and/or possibly diluted whatever is killing off the algae that is in the magnesium solution I dose. As said, there are definitely limitations to this method.

[davenia7]

kent tech-m cured my tank of bryopsis in 2 days. I already had good Mg so it was easy to OD it.
Thing is, no affects to the GHA and the Red bubble algae I have went nuts and started "bubbling" in my GSP.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

calkrog:

I'm curious to know what else was in the tank when you sent it up to 2100 ppm magnesium, and whether you noticed any issues with anything else. Folks often want to know the harmful effects of overdosing magnesium, but not many folks want to experiment with such high levels so there is little to no useful data.

FWIW, that should have taken mammoth amounts of the Tech M. Just to be sure the kit result is reasonable, do you recall how much you added to what volume of tank water? Did you use the reef calculator to calculate an amount to add?

[stevedola]

Ive been trying to raise my mag with esv magnesium and its taking a long time (5days) to raise it 150ppm. Ive been dosing 125ml a day to a 75g with 20 sump/20g fuge. I started at 900ppm and its now about 1050ppm. Should I be using something else to raise it? would rather not alter any other peram. other than mag. suggestions?

this is not to battle HA but rather to simply increase my Mag levels which I think has decreased my Calc levels to 340. Id like to get my mag up to 1400 + calc up to 420 which is where it used to be prior to stocking additional SPS colonies.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This calculator shows much is required. It is a huge amount. Limit the rise to 100 ppm per day, IMO.

Reef chemicals calculator
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

[stevedola]

wow 3800ml of esv mag and 2200 of bionic? dang no wonder why people use that cheap magflake.

prolly better off doing large WCs and then testing and dosing. might help.

alternatives>?