Non-growth shots

[Zach117]

I am about to pull my hair out over my slow-growing brown SPS. Here we go:

-125 gal 1.5 years old
- 3 250w aquaconnect 14k on ARO e-ballasts in Luminarc Minis 7 hours a day.
-30 gal sump/refugium with chaeto. I can see growth everyday and pulll out about half of it every week. (lots of growth)
-H&S 150-f2001 non-recirculating in sump skimmer rated for up to 250g. I run it very wet and fill up the cup about once a week otherwise it is very light and not dark if it fills up quicker.
-TLF phosban reactor for about 5 months now. I ahev tried Phosar and now I am running Rowaphos. Change it about once a month.
-DSB
-Two mjmods 1200. Two Tunze 6000. Eheim 1262 for the return pump.
-Bioload: Percula, 4 lyretail anthias, large pinktail trigger.
- I have fed less and less over the last few months only once a day. I dont see anyhting floating around after about 1.5 minute.
- I have been doing 20% water changes every week over the last 3 months. I was doing 10% every other week. IO salt

Parameters:
Calcium: 400 (salifert)
Alk: 9 dkh (salifert)
Nitrate: 0 (API)
Phosphate: 0 (API) I realize this doesnt matter
Ammonia: Zero
Nitirite: 0

I have never tested Mag, I need to get a test kit. My montis have been growing well but acros are at a near halt recently. I have dipped everything in TMPCC coming in and do not see any bite marks, yellow looking bugs or flatworms. I have about every algae under the sun, calerpa (see photos), HA on the overflow, bubble algae, bits of cyano on the sandbed. Everythng is just brown and acros will not budge... There is still PE on everything. I am exporting lots of nutrients and it has not got better for 6 months now. I cant get a lot of skimmate and my test say that I am low on nutrients but there is constant algae.


4-07
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10-07
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3-07
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10-07
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4-07
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10-07
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4-07
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10-07
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3-07
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10-07
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I have tried everything I just don't know what else to do...

[Zach117]

Two more

3-07
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10-07
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6-07
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10-07
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[FOREIGNER]

First thing I see is a very nutrient-rich tank. Lots of bubble algae and cyano all over the place. High nutrient will often result in brown coloration

[Zach117]

Yes but how else do I reduce nutrirents beside 20% weekly water changes, Good skimming, phosban reactor, macroalgae trimming. My bioload is not that high, right?

[stony_corals]

Yeah, trust the algae growth over the test kits. I believe the API nitrate test kit starts a 0, and the next on the card is 10ppm... If you have good algae growth, you've got nitrates... What's the TDS of your RO/DI? You're bioload is fine... How often are you changing the phosban? Do you have a rDSB in your refugium? Is your refugium lit 24/7?

[Zach117]

TDS is 1 currently. DSB in the dislpay, BB fuge. Fuge is lit on reverse of the display. Phosban is changed once a month, I refuse to pay $100 for the "good" phosphate kits when I have algae and know that is my problem. I just need a solution to eliminate them.

[stony_corals]

That may not be your problem, though it could be. The thing is even the good PO4 test kit does not show that you have any PO4, there are many organic forms, and there are biological process that convert organic phosphates into PO4.

Do you have a DI? While this may not be an issue, I replace my DI once it starts reading 1 ppm TDS. I would try running your fuge 24/7, you'll be more calerpa growth, and hence more nutrient growth...

[Zach117]

I have a ro/DI, Unit is 1.5 years old so I thought I was still a good 6 months to a year until DI replacement. I just replaced the 2 carbon and sediment filters so that might be why it is at 1 TDS now.

I feed only frozen mysis. I rinse it once it is thawed.
Dripping Kalk as my calcium supp. and with all the water changes I have been doing it does the job.

[chrismhaase]

If you are changing your phosban reactor once a month this could be the problem. You are supposed to change the media at a maximum of 2 days. Past the few day post, the phosban media becomes a phosphate sponge. This is per the Kent Marine Phosphate sponge media container.

[Serioussnaps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10930315#post10930315 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrismhaase
If you are changing your phosban reactor once a month this could be the problem. You are supposed to change the media at a maximum of 2 days. Past the few day post, the phosban media becomes a phosphate sponge. This is per the Kent Marine Phosphate sponge media container.

Wrong...he is discussing GFO and I think you are discussing phosphate sponges which really aren't worth a dang in the first place. Second, you should change your media based on an accurate testing instrument.

Although, I do agree your shots brought phosphate to mind. Particularly with the algal growth...especially the caulerpa which isn't a good thing and the anthias to boot. Where there is a tank with anthias there is a tank with nutrients! Generally speaking anyways.

Also, some corals start off with good color and look brown now....leads me to think nutrients even more so.

[chrismhaase]

serious, so what is a good phosphate reducer to put into the phosban reactors?

[johnanddawn]

i may be out of the concensus here but if i were you i would not go ballistic looking for some quick cure to a possibly non exsistent problem. i look at those pics and see "reasonable" growth and yes they are not popping colors but they are growing and not STNing
time and continued good husbandry is more in order
your algae will subside if your pulling that much cheato out but it may take 6 months to reach that stabililty and maturaty in your system that makes corals color pop
as long as they are growing be happy and FINE tune your system

[five.five-six]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10930657#post10930657 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrismhaase
serious, so what is a good phosphate reducer to put into the phosban reactors?

GFO

[speedstar]

Most likely frowned on by most, but have you ever considered the use of vodka or sugar? I look at it as atleast I know what i'm dosing to my tank that way unlike some of the mystery additives that do similar things.

[Zach117]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10930803#post10930803 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by johnanddawn
i may be out of the concensus here but if i were you i would not go ballistic looking for some quick cure to a possibly non exsistent problem. i look at those pics and see "reasonable" growth and yes they are not popping colors but they are growing and not STNing
time and continued good husbandry is more in order
your algae will subside if your pulling that much cheato out but it may take 6 months to reach that stabililty and maturaty in your system that makes corals color pop
as long as they are growing be happy and FINE tune your system

These were my thoughts the first 6 months I had SPS when they still retained their color from the when they were first put in the tank. This is not a new tank its is 1.5 year, those milles have been in there almost a year. I feel good husbandry (and above the normal with 20% water changes a week lately) should have improved my colors over the last 6 months.

[acrylic_300]

Magnesium should be tested since IO is a little low and you have a lot of sps.

but still with 20% water changes a week it should be enough to keep it from being way off. I would test it anyway.

[toefutoefutoefu]

just curious, but what do you keep your alk and calc at? My corals were like that as well when I had trouble keeping my calc / alk up. I overwhelmed my kalk dosing w/o even realizing it. Not to mention, the kalk was not able to keep up with alk usage. My alk at one point dropped to 4.0 dkh and my corals don't have much coloration unless i keep alk > 8dkh.

[dzhuo]

have you consider getting rid of the sand? 1.5 year sounds like a good time frame to at least consider the possibility that your sand might be turning (or already have) turned to a nutrient sink, no?

[Zach117]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10933416#post10933416 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by toefutoefutoefu
just curious, but what do you keep your alk and calc at? My corals were like that as well when I had trouble keeping my calc / alk up. I overwhelmed my kalk dosing w/o even realizing it. Not to mention, the kalk was not able to keep up with alk usage. My alk at one point dropped to 4.0 dkh and my corals don't have much coloration unless i keep alk > 8dkh.

See the original post

[Zach117]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10933501#post10933501 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dzhuo
have you consider getting rid of the sand? 1.5 year sounds like a good time frame to at least consider the possibility that your sand might be turning (or already have) turned to a nutrient sink, no?

I replaced the sand bed back in April of this year when I moved the tank and seeded it with several of the year old sand. I don't know if I could deal with the look of BB...

[michika]

Can I ask for a FTS? I'm curious as to placement vs. lights.

What about your bulbs in your MHs? I know you mentioned 3x250w fixtures, but do you have supplimental lighting over your tank? Are the MH bulbs older, or have you seen a shift towards yellow in the spectrum? I ask because when my bulbs start to shift yellow I begin to see more browns, as wel as more rampant algae growth.

Overall it sounds like you are taking all the appropriate steps to get any phosphate or nitrate issues in hand. Like a previous poster mentioned you may start to see further changes down the road once all of your hard work starts to bear fruit.

Good Luck!

[Zach117]

MH Bulbs are 5 months old. No supplemental lighting My camera sucks, the numbers are the order of the pictures from the first post.

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[michika]

Thank you for the FTS!

Since your bulbs are that new I highly doubt they are contributing to the problem at hand. All I can think is that it might be the nitrates & phosphates that are detracting from your corals' ability to color up. Since you've already got a system in place for getting it all under control and lowering then numbers I think you'll well on your way.

If I had to make one suggestion I would maybe see if placing one frag up quite a bit higher had any positive effect on coloration. Its a shot in the proverbial dark, but maybe it will give you an idea of where to go from here.

[acrylic_300]

Have you got a Magnesium test kit yet?

[dzhuo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10936256#post10936256 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zach117
I replaced the sand bed back in April of this year when I moved the tank and seeded it with several of the year old sand. I don't know if I could deal with the look of BB...

even if all of your corals color up? :) i think your nutrient problem is in your sand and your LR.

[captnHaddock]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10937776#post10937776 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dzhuo
even if all of your corals color up? :) i think your nutrient problem is in your sand and your LR.

LR can be a nutrient problem?

[hiepatitis]

what kind of skimmer are you running?

[dzhuo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10939088#post10939088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by captnHaddock
LR can be a nutrient problem?

maybe. isn't that one of the reason we cook rock?

[stony_corals]

Yes, and if you have nutrients in your tank, the live rock can be just as much a sponge as a sand bed can..

[Zach117]

I tested my magnesium with a salifert kit and it is 1260.

I have the fuge lit 24/7 now, and I ordered a new DI that is on the way. Other recommendations so far:

BB
Cook the live rock
Vodka, sugar, low nutrient supplement/zeo, ultralith, prodibio etc.

I really appreciate all the help guys! Any other suggestions?

[spscrackhead]

id try out sugar if i were you, watch your skimmer tho

[Nanook]

Hmmm, seems like a cornucopia of suggestions on here...I guess you just have to listen to everyone and look for a common theme to get a reasonable answer:D:D:D

My suggestions would be to limit the amount of mysis shrimp...it really bumps nutrients up high!!! I would look at doubling the size of your refugium to take nutrients out of the water quicker. If your TDS is zero and you are "sure" your RODI water is GOOD, then I would suggest trying a large water change of 50-75% matching alk, cal, sg and temp. See if that helps...if so, do larger water changes for a while....I really think using a large fuge is a good solution and ditching the mysis shrimp will help a lot.

I am not a big believer in the DSB and liverock sponge theories.

[dzhuo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10955592#post10955592 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nanook
I would suggest trying a large water change of 50-75% matching alk, cal, sg and temp. See if that helps

no offense but of course it will help. in that case, i would suggest doing a 100% water change with same alk, cal, sg and temp. :) immediately, it will solve all of your problems. 2 weeks later, however, you will be back at square one.


I am not a big believer in the DSB and liverock sponge theories.


i, on the other hand, will bet that's in fact your problem: the sand.

good luck! :)

[sjfishguy]

After looking at that full tank shot, I would lose the sand. Its not even a DSB, just sand piled up here and there. I had a problem similar to yours and then got rid of the sand (not totally, just left an 1/8'' to coat the bottom, I hate the bare bottom look too) and things REALLY turned around. Getting rid of that sand is the first thing I would do before trying all these other supplements, etc.