When a hobbyist plays with H2O2

[KurtsReef]

Well I have gone back and forth in my head on posting about my little experiment or not... will start this with three quick entries first a bit of background, second the experimental treatment, third some observations over the following days.

I am not looking for discussion on the right way to treat a system for ICH I fully understand that removal of the fish for a period of 4 weeks or longer is the only 'proven' method. For the sake of helping fellow reefers heres a little story... Long story short (yes its a long post but really as a short as it could be but that is why I will divide it up), never had ICH in a tank with many years of reef keeping or even in my younger years with freshwater fish. Never any fish disease without a specific incident such as long term power outage to point at as a culprit to stress the fish and then this spring had an outbreak of ICH after adding several fish to the new display tank...some with little to no QT depending on the fish and where I got it from.

Isolated the fish into a hospital tank and lost many during the 4 weeks they were in the hospital tank mostly wrasses due to my lack of knowledge they did not handle copper treatment well. Made the decision to put the remaining fish back into the display before the end of the 4th week and hoped the ICH was all died off, alas as we now know it was not. My fish are always well fed and water parameters fine, during this process the same applies with added garlic juice in the food preparation.

Spent $150.00 on "No sick fish" medicine which did nothing, ICH still present in the tank after following more than 10 day treatment plan and I would go as far as saying it had no effect at all and a waste of money.

Treated with combination of Pimafix and Melafix which seemed to help the fish for awhile but the ICH returned on three fish. Now, as a hobbyist I am quite frustrated and do not wish to dismantle the reef again in order to capture the fish…and do quite a bit of reading and find the experimental treatment using H2O2 that is proving quite successful at fish farms and after a week or so of debating it in my head decide to give it a go.

What harm could adding oxygen to the tank do anyway, I realized there were dangers but determined I was willing to give it a shot although it may be somewhat foolish as well as risky being an experimental treatment, searching here at RC and on the web came up with no first hand experience from reefers attempting it...so I guess here is some experience for others to read.

[KurtsReef]

Spent a while trying to come up with a formula to get the dosage that has been deemed successful but found it quite difficult so decided to proceed with some rough figures I came up with…the following:

My display is 220g the entire system is close to if not over 500G, the dosage time listed was not excessive and only a couple of hours so I would add the hydrogen peroxide to the display only and upon any signs of distress turn the return pump back on diluting the treatment.

I was using your everyday 3% solution bought at any store for $.99 and shut down the return pump. I slowly added 1/2 cup of H2O2 to the display and watched the fish, all of whom showed no signs of stress. About 5-10 minutes passed (Did I mention this was in no way a scientific approach and I wrote nothing down? This is all from memory of over a week ago) and I put another 1/2 cup of the solution into the tank slowly watching the fish and inverts for signs of stress, again none were exhibited and finished a 3rd cup of H2O2. I also started to look at the corals all of whom appeared fine and still fully extended. After another 5-10 minute period I put in another 1/4 cup of H2O2 and observed all the inhabitants, at this point several white dots were floating up from the substrate, were these the ICH parasite? I have no idea of knowing but was hopeful.

So watching for about 5 minutes after entering the last I decided to bring the baby who was crying at my legs for a walk and planned on leaving the return pump off for about 2-3 hours total, we were gone about an hour.

Upon return from the walk I found that all the corals in the tank had retracted their polyps, the fish and inverts appeared fine and unstressed. I immediately turned on the return pump and went into the cellar and began to wet skim out 40g of water, which I replaced with 40g of saltwater I had waiting. I then skimmed out another 40g of water and I made another 40g of saltwater that I changed out that evening. During the hours of the two water changes certain corals began to re-extend polyps while others remained fully retracted, the green plate coral seemed to suffer the worst of it as some flesh loss occurred exposing the skeleton quite a bit. I did not notice at the time, however the candy cane (Torch/candy/trumpet) coral also lost some tissue. The wrasse seemed to have lost about 1/2 of its "ICH spots".

[KurtsReef]

The next day (Day 2) the wrasse which was covered in ICH had very few spots left which may have actually just been spots where the parasite was and not currently. Most corals had extended polyps at least partially (including Acans, Frogspawn, Hammer, Favia, couple SPS I think are Acropora's, open brains, and Duncan's) and appeared to have no real ill effects such as tissue loss. The green plate, orange plate, candy cane all had some tissue loss and no polyps extended. The two Pocillopora's that normally have a very fuzzy look are both smooth sticks with no polyps extended at all. All fish and inverts appear to be fine.

A couple days later (Day 4) and the Pocillopora's have began to extend polyps, the green plate coral also is extending its tentacles however not nearly the length they used to be. The orange plate never extended polyps far and it hard to tell if it is effected beyond recovery but my hopes on the green plate are not high. The candy cane corals are extending polyps and appear to be recovering.

To this point, I only owned 'normal' tests and all parameters were within range (Alk, Ca, Ph runs high and zero's for all the 'bad stuff') but my ACIII arrived about this time including the ORP probe (hindsight wish I had waited to have at least some form of scientific measuring of what was happening in the tank but in all honesty this was done in frustration and may not have happened if I waited) Orp reading was 180-200. It has been suggested that the ORP readings would not be accurate until the probe 'broke in' however material coming with the unit and probe say they are calibrated and work right out of the box, have nothing to confirm or deny either statement. I at this point am unsure at what effect the previous H2O2 dosage may have had on the ORP readings anyway.


So two days later (Day 5 or 6) one cleaner shrimp is dead. The morning after the other cleaner and two remaining camel shrimp are both dead. (I am actually happy about the camel shrimp deaths as I have seen them picking at coral polyps) Pocillopora's are extended a bit more but not nearly as far as they did prior to the treatment. I have not noticed any deaths in crabs or snails, there was a single hermit crab death I am aware of however that would not be out of the norm for a month.

I then finally got around to picking up the fittings needed to hook up the Ca reactor, ORP readings jumped up eventually reaching around 320-350 within a day.

About 9 or 10 days later after the "Treatment" no fish exhibits any spotting. The green plate is still very questionable, the Pocillopora's are still not extended fully, the candy cane appears to be recovering. So, all the shrimp died and possibly lost three corals but more than likely only one coral will die time will tell. ORP readings are now in the low to mid 400’s.

Today, about 13 days after the treatment the Pocillopora’s are again fully extending their polyps. The green plate coral looks pretty good and actually recovering some of the tissue loss, the polyps or tentacles of the plate are extended further than two days ago but not to their previous longest extension. The candy cane (torch) coral looks a bit worse, perhaps it’s the height in the tank and angle of viewing. I have some before, immediately after, and will get some shots of today for the green plate.

Do I regret the treatment? Not really, if the ICH is truly killed it will be worth it. Would I do this again? Well, I have been asking myself if I want to do it again simply due to the few spots on the wrasse the day after treatment, no way to tell if they died once they unattached themselves from the fish or if they are currently going through their life cycle and will be looking for hosts again soon. I do regret losing any corals that end up dying and the cleaner shrimp, would prefer success in killing the parasite with zero losses but that may be impossible. I do wish I had approached this in a more scientific manner and at least kept very good notes on times and observations. One unusual observation would be that the copepods and other 'critters' in the refugium at least appear fine, it would seem if its killing the parasite then these critters would also die.

Was unsure on posting this in the sick fish forum or chemistry forum (Or even at all...) but felt since it dealt much with both, the chemistry side of the house may be able to lend any expertise in what H2O2 does exactly and perhaps even do that math for a mg/l that was in my display for about an hour and a half. This can also give anyone who is thinking of taking the approach some insight to the risks involved. I never came up with an acceptable way to figure the mg/l however my brother a biologist sent me an excel spreadsheet he came up with and 3 cups of 3% hydrogen peroxide in my display assuming 150 gallons of water volume would equate to 37.517 mg/l of H202 prior to turning on the sump pump and 14.069 mg/l after turning on the pumps including the entire water volume of the system. He also brought up a point I did not realize and that is the O released into the water is not O2 but O alone will react with O2 to create O3 (Ozone) which is why the readings on my new ORP probe continually went up after getting the Ca reactor hooked up and running on the system.

Also am wondering what the natural 'half life' of the extra oxygen put into the system was. I thought it odd the shrimp all died almost a week after the treatment was introduced, the only other change to the system was a PH drop and ozone rise due to running the CO2 in the Ca reactor however I am pretty sure they died the day the Ca reactor was only on about 1/ 2 hour to an hour before running out of CO2 (used system purchased with a mostly empty bottle). Ph was always high in my system about 8.8 or so and has been around 8.1-8.4 since the reactor was hooked up depending on the time of day have not zero'd in the reactor yet. The ORP has been steady at 400 for the last couple days and was in the mid to high 300's when the shrimp died.

Phosphates, Nitrates, Nitrites, and Ammonia all tested at zero throughout the process (only tested twice). Again, the only corals that seem to have suffered ill effects were the plate corals (which may end up dead) the candy cane or torch coral which appears to be recovering fine as well as the poc's. There is no real way to say with 100% certainty that the shrimp died as a result of the experimental treatment however I would say that is extremely good chance that is the case.

I am not a chemist, biologist, or any other profession that would lead to a great deal of knowledge in this field nor would I consider myself to be more than above average knowledge amongst reef keepers and by no means an expert at the science of reef keeping. I am not promoting the use of this method nor would I guarantee similar results if you proceeded with this, only sharing an experience. More will be known concerning the effectiveness of the treatment and any further mortalities in the days/weeks to come. This would be much more pleasing to type out if there were zero deaths or injuries to the livestock in my tank as a result of this experiment, it is never a good feeling to know you attributed to a death even if attempting to help rid the system of a problem.

[KurtsReef]

OK most of the above post was typed out over the last 3 or 4 days several times adding information as I thought of it.

I should have grabbed a notebook and written things down, but to capsulate:

Added approximately 37.51 mg/l of H2O2 to the display tank for a period of 1.5 hours. The corals were not happy.

Then opened up the water to entire system which dropped the concentration of H2O2 to about 14.06

Performed two water changes equal to about 80 total gallons over next 10 hours.

Lost livestock:
(2) skunk cleaner shrimp
(2) camel shrimp

Possible losses:
Candy Cane (Trumpet) coral...still looks bad
Plate corals ...actually look pretty good this morning.

If you run CO2 in a Ca reactor it will react with the O released by the H2O2 to create O3 ozone.

[KurtsReef]

Before shot of the green plate coral:

http://homepage.mac.com/kschneid2_68/.Pictures/220%20reef%20build/_D208299.jpg

After shot of the green and orange plates, you can see the skeletons showing. Will take a shot of what they look like today, but as of this morning I am hopeful of recovery.

http://homepage.mac.com/kschneid2_68/.Pictures/220%20reef%20build/220reef-5.jpg

[KurtsReef]

My brother emailed me a couple corrections in my writing:

actually.. in your last post.. you state that you "Added approximately
37.51 mg/l of H2O2 to the display tank for a period of 1.5 hours".
actually you added 30014.12mg/L of H2O2 to the tank.. which diluted
the final concentration down to 37.51mg/l..... ??i think.??.. its
just semantics... but it does matter..


also.. i think that the ORP probe will react to any oxidizing or reducing molecules in the solution.. which includes all forms of O O2 and O3

i will email you in a minute .. an experiment i think you might want to do..

[KurtsReef]

Also a list of corals that did close up initially but fully recovered in a day were:

Acans
Frogspawn
Acopora
birds nest
Hammer
Elegance
Brains
Sun coral
Favia
Clams (4)

Mushrooms (both in display and sump/refuge)
Button polyps in refugium
kenya trees in refugium

Other inhabitants un injured so far at least:
Linkia Starfish
banded serpent star
sand sifting stars
hermit crabs
snails of all sorts
froma (spelling) stars
Urchins (Tuxedo, royal, pencil, and spiny)
Fish (wrasse, tangs, gobies, clowns, anthias)

[Boomer]

Your bother is a little confused. He is talking about gas equations and your tank is an aqueous solution. With that said H2O2 decomposes to H and O2H*. You can throw out all that O and ozone stuff.

2 H2O2 ---> 2 H2O + O2

and

H2O2 (aq) ---> H+ + O2H-, which will yield O2

HO2- + hv ---> O2

and same O2 yield

HO2+ OH ----> H2O + O2

Maybe your bother is looking a the "push" reaction where O3 + water yield H2O2. It does not go the other way. Pushing H2O2 through water does not yield O3. Even if such a reaction took place, such as the one you mentioned of O + O2 ----> O3, that O3's half life in seawater is less than ~ 1/4 second. And such reactions would yield Bromine bleach. And any activated carbon in he system would remove that. The same for H2O2 reacting with carbon.

Not only will it raise your ORP it can raise your O2 through the roof if the O2 level is not monitored. It is a good way to kill things when the water is over saturated with O2. That very high O2 will burn gills, like in those fish and shrimp and burn the tissues of your corals. It is common practice in fish culture, that in emergency situations, to dose H2O2 it increase the O2 levels of the water when the are low. Perbortate O2 tablets are also used which disassociates to H2O2 then O2. O2 levels should be known, if possible first and monitored so you do not over dose.

All one wants to know here on H2O2

http://www.h2o2.com/

I might add that only 35% PEROX-AID is the only one approved for aquaculture.

I might add these treatments are short bath treatments like 1 hr, that are used over a a few days to control disease on fish and not left in a tank for days with H2O2. The methods are also not used in a full blown tank like your. There are waaaaaaaay many reactions that can take place in a tank.

News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans
Part Three of Five
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm

Hydrogen peroxide is effective against other ectoparasites, such as Ambiphrya and Gyrodactylus spp. (Rach et al. 2000). Sodium percarbonate is a compound that releases hydrogen peroxide when dissolved in water. Sodium percarbonate was demonstrated to kill the freshwater ectoparasite, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, at the theront stage or free-swimming, infective stage (Buchmann, et al., 2002). It is currently used in Denmark with rainbow trout Oncorhynchus mykiss at a concentration of 50-100 mg/L is twice a week without any apparent ill effects on the fish.

If more than 50% of the theronts died the concentration of hydrogen peroxide was recorded as effective (Buchmann, et al., 2002). A dosage of 12.5mg/L at a temperature of 12‹C kills theronts within 3 hours. This same dosage was not effective against the tomocysts stage of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. However, dosages of 12.5 mg/L for 180 min and 62.5 mg/L for 90 min were effective against theronts (Buchmann, et al., 2002).

The life cycle of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is temperature dependant, so the warmer the water temperature the shorter the duration of the parasites life cycle. At 12‹C, the medium time frame for tomocsyts to hatch is 9 days and the attached parasitic stage has a duration of 10-12 days. This means that at 12‹C treatment should continue daily for a minimum of three weeks. Caution should be taken when using hydrogen peroxide as accidental spills may have an immediate adverse effect on human skin.

Studies to test the effectiveness and safety of hydrogen peroxide for the treatment of other ectoparasites such as Cryptocaryon irritans are fully warranted (Montgomery-Brock, D. et al., 2000). However, this treatment is considered to be highly experimental, therefore it cannot be recommended. The side effects and survival rate when using hydrogen peroxide may not prove to be acceptable. Protective clothing and safety glasses should be worn when using a dose of 35% and higher. The water temperature should be carefully monitored when treating with hydrogen peroxide, because it becomes more toxic as the temperature rises. At this point, the safety, effectiveness, correct dosage and duration of treatment for this experimental method have not been established.


Buy the way that is really the way to post very detailed post like you did :thumbsup:

[KurtsReef]

I appreciate the read and feedback, will email your math to him and the other two biologists I sent my original information to. Only one of the three has any saltwater experience, and none have experience with things such as this to my knowledge.

(The brother is doing his masters program now working with some creek trout or similar fish)

The quote from advanced aquarist above is one of the items I had read, a few other studies had 50-80 mg/l as being safe for FISH none of the studies mentioned corals or inverts at all which is where the real risk was. One study mentioned going much higher than 80mg/l however at each step there were more fish fatalities which they could not determine the amount caused by the treatment or by the parasite themselves.

My goal was to get 65mg/l which my math was quite short of, more than likely a good thing considering the effect it had on my plate corals and more directly the trumpet coral (which thinking back the Trumpet is directly under where I was introducing the H2O2). After my experience with copper treatment and fish deaths, if I were to set up a hospital tank again I would not hesitate doing H2O2 treatment over the copper simply due to the 100% survival rate of the fish in my experiment.

My brother also sent me a series of tests he would like me to run in non-system water. Suggested (4) different setups and H2O2 and the use of CO2 to determine its effect on the ORP or assumed Ozone creation. From what you state it would not actually be O3 created by the process but O2 which was my understanding going into the treatment. May do it anyway since I have the probe just to satisfy curiosity.

It would be nice to know when the effects of my dosage ended or will end, how does one test O2 levels in water?

I plan on doing another 35g water change tomorrow, but do not want to replace my cleaner shrimp until I know its back to "normal"

[Boomer]

how does one test O2 levels in water?[

Easy with a DO meter or O2 test kit. They must have one where he is at. He will need to make sure first it can be set or calibrated to seawater if is a meter. You can get, a not to expensive, O2 kit from Lamotte, that will measure O2 to 0.10 mg /l. The HACH O2 kit is ~$150 and can measure to 0.02 mg/ l.

Here is a calculator and info for you and your brother, to show saturation of O2 in seawater.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/oxygen-solubility-water-d_841.html

http://www.aquanic.org/images/tools/oxygen.htm


The quote from advanced aquarist above is one of the items I had read

Yes but these are baths for 1-3 hrs, then the fish are removed to their Q-T tank...correct. These are not full blown tanks. It is then repeated the next day or hrs later. You do not let them sit in this stuff for days.


From what you state it would not actually be O3 created by the process but O2 which was my understanding going into the treatment.

Yes, that and the high ORP. The point is to 'burn" the disease off the fish. And to add some of the H2O2 will also convert Bromide to Bromine in seawater, so that too is an oxidant and would add in the process. But leaving animals in Bromine bleach is not wise for long durations either. There also may be some Bromate and even chlorine bleach formed ;) And some of the H2O2 may remain as H2O2, as all may not get converted. There are also H2O2 test kits. And there are also Ozone test kits, Chlorine test kits and even Bromine test kits. But you need to know WHICH ones are right and WHY. Many of them use the DPD method so will test + not matter which one of these is in the water or combinations of them in the water. Seawater is NOT FW :D. It is a different beast. Many kits, meters DO NOT work right in seawater, as the "salt" ions interfere with the tests/measurements.

One should not play with H2O2 in tanks unless they know what they are doing ahead of time :)

Hear is some of the chemistry of ozone in seawater.

Ozone

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 2: Equipment and Safety
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/rhf/index.php

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 3: Changes in a Reef Aquarium upon Initiating Ozone
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-05/rhf/index.php


(The brother is doing his masters program now working with some creek trout or similar fish)

KOOL, I'm into trout :D

[KurtsReef]

Update on the torch coral: Still seems to send out feeding polyps at night, but overall just appears horrid looking very skeletal is the only way I can think to decribe it.

Update on plate coral: Does not look perfect by any means, skeleton still shows a bit but does respond to feeding by sending out polyps, brings food to the center mouth and expands with water. Has a lighter green appearance than it had before the treatment.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10947576#post10947576 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
[b]how does one test O2 levels in water?[

Easy with a DO meter or O2 test kit. They must have one where he is at.
I am sure they do, but he is 8 hours away. I do not live near any family, joined the service at 17 and married a New York girl...she wanted to move to NY when I got out of active duty


The quote from advanced aquarist above is one of the items I had read

Yes but these are baths for 1-3 hrs, then the fish are removed to their Q-T tank...correct. These are not full blown tanks. It is then repeated the next day or hrs later. You do not let them sit in this stuff for days.

One should not play with H2O2 in tanks unless they know what they are doing ahead of time :)

Yes, in a QT tank would have been a much safer/better plan of action. I wanted to ask questions but the only responses to people inquiring about such things is simply "Dont do it" without any real discussion as to the pros/cons.

I do think however that if an aquarist were able to perform say two 50 -75% water changes after the 1-3 hour treatments that this may be looked at in the future as an acceptable form of treatment. To be honest the amount of death that occurred was so much less than going by more traditional methods, just different creatures involved. That would be dependant of course on if the ICH is actually all killed out of my system. It would be nice to see a univeristy study on such a treatment, real clinical study using this in a system. Imagine being able to cure a reef tank of ICH for $.99 or two or three $.99 treatments (not including salt mix for water changes of course)

Hindsight being the 20/20 it is the biggest thing I would change about how I went about it would to have removed the water directly from the display after treatment before turning on the return pump. This would have taken a larger amount of the highly oxygenated water out bringing the system much closer to normal when opened.

My brother had a question, he looked at you math and wondered:

"I find it hard to believe that it quickly just turns into water and O2. it might, but ??
once you remove the first H atom .. the second is harder to remove...
and the molecule you get. (which is in the equation he posted) is HO2-... which i believe people refer to as a superoxide...
.. you should ask him about it... he seems to be an expert (chemist?)... anyway.. probably also bad news if in high concentrations..

in the real world (non-aquaria).. we do not worry too much about inputs of H2O2... and even in the most turbulent of streams.. i do not believe the O2 level gets high enough naturally to harm anything..
usually the problem is the opposite..
.. i personally have never seen anything too far above 110% saturation.."

My plan is to get him hooked on saltwater so he changes schools to U. of Hawaii or somewhere that would be cool to visit. Will make sure he sees the links you posted, thanks have lots of reading to do now.

[Boomer]

"I find it hard to believe that it quickly just turns into water and O2. it might, but ??
once you remove the first H atom .. the second is harder to remove...
and the molecule you get. (which is in the equation he posted) is HO2-... which i believe people refer to as a superoxide...
.. you should ask him about it... he seems to be an expert (chemist?)... anyway.. probably also bad news if in high concentrations..

I said and showed that in my last post that it is first conveted to HO2

2 H2O2 ---> 2 H2O + O2

and

H2O2 (aq) ---> H+ + O2H-, which will yield O2

HO2- + hv �---> O2

and same O2 yield

HO2+ OH -�---> H2O + O2

And some of the H2O2 may remain as H2O2, as all may not get converted

If your bother is in doubt about raising O2 just add some to the water and check the O2. In this hobby and aquacultue, there is what I stated Perborate's tablets used to raise O2. Tell him to check the chemistry of Perborates in water. They first yield H2O2 in the reaction and them O2. H2O2 has been used for decades to raise the O2 levels in water

do not believe the O2 level gets high enough naturally to harm anything..
usually the problem is the opposite..
.. i personally have never seen anything too far above 110% saturation.."

If you use to much you will be wayyyy above 100 % or even 110 %. And to much of HO2 is going to 'burn" things. Tanks are not streams. Depending on the system at hand it may take up to 2-3 days to get all the H2O2 to break down into O2 in FW. Seawater is not fresh water it has lots of Bromide in it. H2O2 is also used in ground wwater remediation to increase the O2. It is also used in agriculture to increase the O2 to the roots. It is used in toothpaste, it is a "bleach", it oxidizes things and produces oxidants.

Short and simple

http://www.oxyjet.com/peroxide.html

http://www.solvayh2o2.com/market/application/0,0,-_EN-1000029-1000366,00.html

http://www.h2o2.com/intro/overview.html

I posted this already below. If he has any questions on H2O2 it is all there as I said. He will find nowhere more info on H2O2 than here. Or just call them ;)


http://www.h2o2.com/


Tell him to read this

Toxicity of Hydrogen Peroxide to Fingerling Walleyes
http://www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=GSQWH369X2C88P9EB0VXVAQ5VE006CV8&ID=71780

Crap loads of hits on fish and H2O2
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=hydrogen+peroxide+toxicity+in+fish&spell=1

[KurtsReef]

He seemed to be asking about the HO2 what he thought was referred to as "Super Oxide" and not doubting you so much as his own math I think, which is where the part about asking you as you seem to be a chemist came in. He was not sure what super oxide would do to organisms in any concentration.

He has fully admitted his knowledge of saltwater chemistry and organisms is limited, which may not be in any of the quotes I put here.

[Boomer]

HO2- = Hydroperoxide and use to be called Superoxide
A compound having a relatively large percentage of oxygen as peroxide.




http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperoxide&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhyperoxide%2B%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

and


Hydroperoxide (HO2) in basic solution occurs at a much smaller potential than is required for the oxidation of water to hydrogen peroxide in neutral or acidic solution. Hydrogen per-oxide is a weak acid that ionizes to give the hydroperoxide ion in strongly basic solutions. The pKa of 11.6 means that the major form of peroxide in solutions with pH less than 11 is H2O2. Above pH 12, most of the peroxide is found in the HO2 ionic form. 2 HO2 (aq.) → 2 OH(aq.) + O2 (g) 2 H2O2 (aq.) → 2 H2O(l) + O2 (g). Both HO2 and H2O2 are unstable in aqueous solution, eventually decomposing with evolution of oxygen gas Fortunately, these reactions are slow without a catalyst: so aqueous peroxide solutions are stable at room temperature. Decomposition of peroxide to oxygen in boiling water is quite fast, however.

Electrolysis of water not only converts OH- or H2O to peroxide, but com¬ plete oxidation to oxygen also occurs. The oxidation potentials show that it is easier to convert water to oxygen than to peroxide. For this reason, O2 inevitably is a byproduct of the electrolysis of water, even if peroxide is the desired product. Some ozone may also be generated at the anode, but both O2 and O3 will be carried away in the gas stream.

[CapitalO]

Just to reiterate what has already been said and lay out the whole process of hydrogen peroxide decomposing into oxygen gas and water:

HOOH + OH- ---> HOO- + HOH ---> OH- + O + HOH

side note: OH- is not required to start the reaction because the "H"OOH of a molecule will react with the H"O"OH in another molecule. This reaction exists in equilibrium:

2 HOOH <--> HOO- + HOH + OH-

This is also why the pH matters (pH > 7 will have excess OH- in solution). Thats why the pH determines how much HOO- can be found in solution at any given time; it is dependent on the concentration of OH- present.

Thats probably too much detail, but I hope it helped :)

[Boomer]

Nope not at all Cap. I say some of the while doing a search and just left it out.

You may loose people with stuff like this :) HOH = H₂O, HOOH = H₂O₂
Check this link out

http://www.h2o2.com/

[CapitalO]

Sorry, I thought it would be easier to follow written like H + OH ---> HOH. I think its easier to visualize it this way as it better shows where the proton is coming from and going to. The biggest bonus is that I don't have to put in a crap load of modifiers for the subscipt :) I can see how it would be confusing though. Its too bad that more people dont use stuff like HOH vs H2O; the HOH way is more realistic and better shows the molecules structure.

[Boomer]

Yeah I agree , kinda like that new way for me for reading organic molecules. Isobutane is no longer Isobutane, but is 2-Methylpropane, that IUPAC stuff. Many years back when I stated seeing stuff like 1,3,5-trinitro-1,3,5-triazacyclohexane, in place of cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine, I was lost.

[CapitalO]

Exactly. Thats a good analogy; it shows how important the structure really is. Take C₆H₁₀, there are so many different isomers that there is no way to know anything about its reactivity or physical properties. In example: [2.1.1] bicyclopentane and 3-methylbut-1,4-ene are both C₆H₁₀ but are totally different molecules.

[Nazrac]

are you guy serious. you are adding peroxide to your tanks. I have some 35% here at my work if you just want kill everything quick and easy. It will burn the crap out of you and leave you itching for days.

[Boomer]

D^2

[Boomer]

D^2

[Boomer]

No, I do not like the idea at all of adding peroxide to tanks :) To much to go wrong.

[KurtsReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10965122#post10965122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nazrac
are you guy serious. you are adding peroxide to your tanks. I have some 35% here at my work if you just want kill everything quick and easy. It will burn the crap out of you and leave you itching for days.

Thats exactly what I did. Would not suggest that everyone try it until there are more tests done, and if they do they are risking corals and fish in the process and should understand it.

I wish I could say for sure what my PH was when the experimental treatment was given, however can only say it was near 8.0 as that is where it normally sits near.

A month later update:

No ICH return to the tank at all. One fish has died, however I think it was of old age and had nothing to do with disease what so ever. My scooter blenny was found in an overflow dead two days ago...

The green plate coral is almost fully recovered. The Candy Cane coral is on its way back but does not have the same coloration it had before. So, it would appear at this time the treatment worked so far as ridding the tank of ICH and no corals were actually lost however two injured and one severely injured but recovering.

[Nazrac]

No thank you. I wont be trying that. Better to just set up a qt. But i would question that the blenny died to lack of food. If it ate frozen/flake maybe not but i am pretty sure that probably killed every pod in that tank. I could be wrong though.

[KurtsReef]

I am not suggesting that you try it, only documenting what I did try. Everything done in this hobby was experimental at one point or another.

You are incorrect, it did not kill the pods and my mandrin is still fat as was the blenny when he died (he also ate cyclopeaze as does the mandrin). Also have a dragon goby doing well though he seems to eat anything put in the tank from pellets to flake as well as sift through the sand. The refugium swarms with pods before, during, and after the treatment and they are also well populated in the display and overflows....although the ornamental shrimps did die about a week after the treatment and assumed a result of it.

[BenMG]

Hey, just reading through the thread finding it all very interesting...don't think I'd wanna dose H2O2..!

Thought I might be able to clear this up, though :)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10950618#post10950618 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
[B]HO2- = Hydroperoxide and use to be called Superoxide
A compound having a relatively large percentage of oxygen as peroxide.

dioxygen species are named (omitting the obvious, O2 ;)):

O2(2-) -peroxide, as in H2O2
O2(-) -superoxide, as in HO2-

All of which are radical species, making them pretty reactive, as we all know- burning gills/coral tissue as Boomer said.

As for the IUPAC/old-school/empiracle stuff, Im all about IUPAC nomenclature:p

-Ben

[KurtsReef]

Over 2 months have passed. No sign of ICH returning and both the candy cane & plate coral that were 'scorched' by the treatment have recovered fully.

[czerbe]

wow this is a lot more in depth than i am