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hahnmeister
10/16/2007, 05:29 PM
There is something to this cone shape, and with a bubble plate it gets even better.

It arrived finally (ground from Austria can take a bit). IT was packed in a styro:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/1ATBinbox.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/2ATBinbox.jpg
The instructions need help maybe, but do any of us really need instructions anyways? Still, warranty info, specs, performance ratings, info, etc. would be nice.

What can you say... this is most likely the first English version ever:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/3ATBdirections.jpg

I got a bit: Anton included a spare needlewheel in case modding was needed. I had asked for it with the intent of trying a meshwheel, but he included a really well made one as well. Maybe Ill have to make a 'Matala-wheel'. Note that regular versions will not come with this many. Anton wanted the ability for me to do more testing with the extra impellers if needed.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/4ATBexploded.jpg
Im going to skip pics of some things unless people request certain photos in particular, since many details are covered on the ATB site and forum already.

The transition is a simple 'compression fitting'. Its very simple and easy to use, and doesnt leak. Anton includes an extra length of this foam-rubber cord to reseal down the road should it be needed. The fitting is nice and snug, and the entire cup can simply be lifted up and out with less than a 1/2" lift of the cup:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/5ATBtransition.jpg
The inlet is 'snug-fit' as well. It is a 1" OD, 13/16" ID pipe that attaches to the eheim with some flexible hose (like a BK deluxe). It stays in place very well:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/6ATBpumpinlet.jpg
The bubble plate is larger than I thought. Its about 7" in diameter, and full of holes:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/7ATBbubbleplatefromabove.jpg
The outlet adjustment is very similar to the BK mini's. It involves twisting the 'pseudo-standpipe' to adjust the water level. The little red 'pins' help keep track of the relative position of the valve, very convenient. FWIW, I am normally not a huge fan of these, as I prefer standpipes. I could easily trim the OD of a 1.5" pipe elbow fitting and add a standpipe to the outlet FWIW, and I was considering it, but after playing with it a bit, its not needed:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/8ATBadjustmentdial.jpg
As it turns out, the skimmer performs best in 6-8" of sump water depth. Any more, and the skimmer can overflow rather easily, and it will shoot a ton of bubbles out the outlet. The gate valve is almost not even needed. The cone shape allows the waterline to be much lower in the skimmer. A cylinder has its midpoint 1/2 way up, and its water/foam transition line is often near the top around the reducer section. With this skimmer, the cone allows the water/foam transition to be much lower in the skimmer... like a beckett if you will. So the gate valve isnt really needed since the the water level only needs to be a few inches above where the water outlet is in the first place.

hahnmeister
10/16/2007, 05:34 PM
The pump is an eheim 1260. It has a custom made outlet, and a venturi with a 17/32" restriction, with a 1/4" air inlet:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/9ATBeheim1260feet.jpg
The inlet has been enlarged so its pretty much an eheim 1262:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/10ATBeheim1260inletenlargement.jpg
The impeller is nice... and pink!:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/11ATBeheimpinwheel.jpg
The 7" diameter bubble plate is a monster. This plate is a true turbulence reducer:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/12ATBbubbleplatefromunderneath.jpg
All together now...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/13ATBassembled.jpg

hahnmeister
10/16/2007, 05:45 PM
Now, here is a sidetrack...

Look what else fits right on the skimmer input:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/14QuietOne3000.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/15QuietOne3000outlet.jpg
... So snug it fits right in. I might have to have some fun with that later.

The ER pinwheel is on the left. If ER has any comments, I invite them. I hear they have a couple generations of eheim impellers, so if the one I got this summer from them isnt the latest and greatest, let me know!
As you can see, the ATB is slightly shorter:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/16ATBpinwheelvsERpinwheel.jpg
But the same diameter:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/17ATBpinwheelvsERpinwheel2.jpg
And you can compare face on with this shot of the ER:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/18ERpinwheel.jpg
My understanding is that it is similar to the Deltec pinwheel, or based on it at least. Could be wrong, but it should perform very similar.
And here the skimmer is in my sump last night:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/19ATBinsumpmicrobubbles.jpg
It had a ton of bubbles flying out the outlet at first while the skimmer was breaking in. But this morning they were gone 100%, and I had about 1" of dark tea in the cup. The skimmer seems to collect hard particulate matter very well too. I actually had chunks of algae and other particles in the collection cup. My last skimmer could collect some 'chunks', but not like this thing.

rishma
10/16/2007, 05:52 PM
Any more, and the skimmer can overflow rather easily, and it will shoot a ton of bubbles out the outlet.


sounds like the 60 hz is pulling too much for the body. 6-8"is on the shallow side. what is the watts and PF of the ehiem with the NW impeller? A little taller cone could be in order.


Really really nice construction. very cool!! congrats and thanks for sharing.

HBtank
10/16/2007, 05:56 PM
I like "attitude pipe" and "foam Pot" better anyways :D

Nice skimmer there...

rishma
10/16/2007, 05:56 PM
probably a dumb question, what pump is that?

Look what else fits right on the skimmer input:

Ewan
10/16/2007, 06:05 PM
It's a quiet one; a relative of the PSK2500.

Great pics Hahnmeister. Somehow, I can visualize that skimmer being a good 'particulate' collector. Usually the particulate gets to a point, and hangs in the neck. With the cone, I can imagine a higher velocity toward the foam pot... does that make any sense?

hahnmeister
10/16/2007, 06:10 PM
So I did some testing last night. I have a ER volute/venturi, and an ER needlewheel. I have the ATB venturi, needlewheel, and threadwheel.

So I did some mix & match:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/Pumptest.jpg
The ATB pinwheel was better than the ER pinwheel, and the threadwheel really moved into the lead. The ER intake was the better though. Its ID of the venturi was the same as the ATB, so it is no doubt due to the size of the airline. Considering the EU version of the ATB is only intended to do 500lph of air, its plenty. But the US version does more, and so a 3/8" inlet is most likely needed. This will also lower the turbulence most likely. But this was the winning combo:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/20ATBwinningcombo.jpg

I also made a custom venturi for the skimmer... much like the Sicce PSK 2500 ones I have made. I bet I can get even higher air intake. I havent had a chance to test it, but later I will.

I will report back later with more on performance, but this is all a good 'first look'. I want to let the skimmer break in more before I judge anything.

Specs of note:
Cone diameter at base: 9-3/8"
Cone height (to neck): 13"
Total height: 21.5"
Neck ID: 4-5/8"
Bubble chamber inside height: 2-5/8"
Bubble chamber diameter: 7"
Bubble chamber height + concentrating ring height: 5-5/8"
Footprint: 16"x10"
'Stock' Air intake (pinwheel): 620lph
'Stock' Air intake (threadwheel): 732lph

hahnmeister
10/16/2007, 06:14 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10986225#post10986225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rishma
probably a dumb question, what pump is that?

Its a pump that Sicce makes that has 1" inlet/outlet, uses 40 watts, and has an EAP to make threadwheel impeller, with the same volute (actually slightly thicker, but same cover/diameter as the PSK 2500. Its the Quiet One 3000.

hahnmeister
10/16/2007, 06:17 PM
I think its a form of turbulence reduction, from the bubbles POV, as well as the water. The water cant spin around as much... the narrowing neck restricts tangential and cross flow in the body as you get closer to the top. The bubbles wise without hitting a flat part, as even a 30 degree slope (from vertical) is still an impact force 1/2 that of a flat plate. Then, as the bubbles rise into the neck, the cone makes a smooth transition. With a flat plate, or something 'usual', the bubbles tend to flow up, then get stuck under a plate, and then accelerate towards the neck with not only an upward flow, but a horizontal flow. This turbulence puts additional turbulence right below the neck, at its entrance. With the cone, this doesnt exist.

The other advantage seems to be the ability to make a single-pass skimmer with almost no back-pressure on the pump. A cone has its midpoint at about 1/3 of the way up, and a cylinder has it 1/2 the way up. Combined with how the body begins to narrow much lower, the cone has an effective water level that is much lower than in a cylinder shape.

Its almost like making a skimmer like this...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/TheStubbySkimmerpeg.jpg
Anyways, this puts very little back-pressure on the pump, so you can have a single-pass skimmer with as high an output as a recirc. I ran the eheim 1260 needlewheel for the ATB in a bucket, and found its throughput was the same as when on the skimmer. Kinda cool.

hahnmeister
10/16/2007, 06:23 PM
One interesting thing: The ER volute/pinwheel only pulled 620lph. Now, according to when I talked with them this summer, these two parts are all that is needed to convert a 1262/60 to their needlewheel, and being that I already had 2 1262s and a 1260, I didnt need another pump... so I just ordered their volute/venturi and their pinwheel. The thing is, I cant get it over this 620lph mark.

dphins
10/16/2007, 07:19 PM
Is this the nano skimmer?

GSMguy
10/16/2007, 07:21 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10986923#post10986923 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dphinsx2
Is this the nano skimmer?

its the small

and it is sweet.

good luck with your new skimmer that thing is nice.

dphins
10/16/2007, 07:30 PM
I got you, I was thinking the nano and the small were the same thing. Since nano and small are usually mean the same thing.

hahnmeister
10/16/2007, 10:21 PM
Nah, the nano has about a 6" base, and uses an eheim 1250.

aninjaatemyshoe
10/16/2007, 10:31 PM
Are they intending to start selling these in the US?

hahnmeister
10/16/2007, 10:47 PM
They are on sale now. The supply is a little on the short side though as only a few skimmers were sent in the first batch (I think two nanos and two small). But Anton is doing all he can to remedy that situation by boosting production and sending things out.

We first wanted to make sure everything ran fine on the US electricity, since the pumps run 20% faster here than in the EU. You will notice that the pump performs better here than in 50hz.

The eheim 1260 pumps that ATB uses in the EU only pull 500lph. That isnt exactly up there with the H&S and Deltecs which pull 750lph per pump (50hz)... then again, these aren't recirculating skimmers either. Still, US versions pull 900lph (although that Euroreef didnt, perhaps some other ER 1262 NW owners can post their air results), and this one only pulls 620lph. That could be something to improve on.

Still, in the grand scheme of things, considering the bubble plate and the cone shaped body, the air not being so high isnt my top concern... yet. Who knows what Anton might have up his sleeve. Maybe he can make custom volutes like H&S, or enlarge the outlets/do a face mount union for the outlets. Or, perhaps it would just be easier to use another pump all together that isnt so expensive and hard to customize. Quiet One 3000? Red Dragon mini from a mini 200? Custom DC pump? Who knows. The eheim is nice because it runs smooth and very quiet.

Oh, did I forget to mention? I cant even hear this thing running. Pretty cool. Those little foam feet on the pump work very well.

rishma
10/16/2007, 10:50 PM
I'd like a nano

hahnmeister
10/16/2007, 11:02 PM
The only disadvantage I see is that the Euro is pulling in at what... $1.42US as of last night? Ouch. Thats higher than its been in a while, and rising.

Ewan
10/17/2007, 06:00 AM
The US dollar is in no shape for improvement right now.

When my wife and I moved to the US 6 years ago, the Canadian dollar was worth $0.64. We moved back to Canada last year, and in the last month the Canadian dollar has been PAR with the US dollar for the first time in 30 years.

I told my wife it's because I work so hard, that I raised the GDP. I don't think she bought it. The sad part is, all of my work in in the US, and so are my cheques. :(

Will Proline be handling the ATB units?

-E.

hahnmeister
10/17/2007, 11:35 AM
No, proline will not be handling ATB.

skimmy
10/17/2007, 12:01 PM
awesome!!!
i want to replace our bm250 at the store with one of their xl cone skimmers, now, if i can just talk my boss into it...
and i think im going to start saving for a small for myself as well, i love that the qo3000 fits on there! looking forward to seeing that pump on there...:)

and what's a 'Matala-wheel' ?? im not keeping up..lol

Julio
10/17/2007, 12:06 PM
that is a ighty big collection cup

gabe3d
10/17/2007, 12:44 PM
Hahmeister,

Thanks for the very good and detailed review on this skimmer so far.

Can you take a full skimmer shot of it in action, interested to see how much different the bubbles are in the cone compared to the KZ.

Looks like the skimmer is reasonably well built. Is that the seam right next to the standpipe where they mended the two end of the acrylic sheet to make it a cone? Also there seems to be a quite an amount of microbubble coming out of the skimmer.

hahnmeister
10/17/2007, 01:38 PM
Julio, My perspective on that one photo might have made it look big, but it is about 8" in diameter.

When I woke up this morning, I had to shut the skimmer off because the collection cup was full, and all day yesterday it only filled about 1/3 of the way, if that!!! I didnt have time to clean it out and restart it before I left this morning (even though it would have only taken a minute or two I suppose), but it was full of 'medium tea' and the lid was bubbling off of it! I think I need to set it to skim darker. I thought I would skim wetter, but now I think I know why all the pics I see in the ATB www.aquariumtechnik.at forums are with dark coffee... if you set it to skim wet, it will fill up fast.

hahnmeister
10/17/2007, 01:59 PM
gabe3d,
Ill try to take a photo now that I think its broken in, with flash so you can see how the bubbles look in size. The other thing I want to try is a video though, like the atbskimmer.com videos, so you can see how the bubbles gather in there. It reminds me of a skimmer with a 'really big neck', because the bubbles start about 1/3 of the way up, and are just solid from there on up.

The skimmer is solid in build. There is a seam along the side that faces the standpipe. Its very well done though, and Im not worried about it. All the other bonds are 'welded' so they are pretty strong. I wouldnt suggest dropping the skimmer, but I could see dropping it from 3-4' high and nothing breaking. The base, 'bubble-pan' and lid seem to be a PVC type plastic... so pretty durable. The rest is all cast acrylic, and the thickness of the body on this seems to be about 1/4-3/8".

As for microbubbles, I commented right under that photo that that was how it was as soon as I put it in there. Anton Burian pointed out that the skimmer needs to go in 6-8" of water or there can be alot of microbubbles. I thought my waterline there was under 8", but it was actually about 10". The next morning, after things broke in a little more, and I lowered the waterline in the sump, there are no microbubbles.

I heard that someone else got a 'Small' model, and that it already outperformed the previous Deltec 851 it replaced. I believe it. Its not even a matter of the amount of air according to Anton, at least not with this body. He said that getting more air into this body would just make it skim wetter, but that is about it. The body size would have to be increased to really take advantage of a higher output pump... The venturis will be 3/8" in the future, but its not a major concern.

All the future versions will be running with threadwheels, unless requested otherwise. FWIW, it is a nice threadwheel... the arbor mount eliminates zip-ties.

Oh, and to respond to the previous question... Matala is a pond filter material that can be used much like enkamat is used for threadwheels. It is what Klaus experimented with on his way to developing the new 'loopwheel'. It has some advantages over enkamat. You can google it and see what Im talking about.

I hope www.atbskimmer.com is up soon.

gabe3d
10/17/2007, 02:36 PM
I just realized that you can take the skimmer apart, that is very convenient for cleaning. Too bad my KZ can't do that.

I had a similar idea about the Mazzei venturi and putting it on the intake as oppose to the output which is a little more common. Seems like a great idea since it'll probably give you a better ratio of water to air. How much did it help back then when you had it on the Sicce? Also did you happen to measure the water throughput?

woz9683
10/17/2007, 02:40 PM
It's up, it's just got an s on the end. www.atbskimmers.com

franklinbeens
10/17/2007, 03:56 PM
WOW! it must be exciting being in on the r&d team.
keep us informed. i want one too! (later of course) :)

nebraskareef
10/17/2007, 03:59 PM
John -

Thank you for sharing these awesome pics and information. I know we are all very excited about these!

DeltecRules
10/17/2007, 05:11 PM
Looking very impressive John. ATB looks like they are going to make it big in the US. Is Anton a one man show building these units? I know they are a small operation.

Maximus
10/17/2007, 05:45 PM
Can't wait to see one in action!

GSMguy
10/17/2007, 05:51 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10994272#post10994272 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Maximus
Can't wait to see one in action!
http://s230.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/atbusa/

hahnmeister
10/17/2007, 06:44 PM
Okay, let me give some details here. My 125g (48x30x21"h) has the following fish:
Royal Gramma (2")
6 x solar fair wrasse (2-3"ea)
1x Temmincki fairy wrasse (3")
Pyjama Cardinal (1.5")
2x yellow watchman goby (1")
1x Pacific Regal Blue Tang (2")
1x Striated Tang (2")
1x Yellow Tang (3")
1x Red Sea Purple Tang (2.5")
1x Lamarck's Angelfish (2.5", but fat, very fat... like a guppy)

I feed 2x a day. 1x with Spectrum dry pellets in the morning, then 1x Rod's Reef Frozen Food at night.

I WAS dosing 6ml Everclear (95% ethanol) per day until 10 days ago. My skimmer stopped producing as much 'coffee', and so I assumed the vodka dosing caught up with the output of the tank. My water has never been so clear. My nitrates and phosphates were 0. My fish were also getting infections from all the bacteria in some way. Nothing that wouldnt go away in a few days, but cloudy eyes here, itching, and flaking scales there... so I stopped. The fish are fine again, and I wanted to give a 'benchmark' of some sort. So I will test tonight to see what the 'initial values' from the skimmer working will be (I dont think the skimmer working for one day is going to factor in much). My hope is that I have some sort of detectable nutrient levels, representing what my tank would be with just the previous skimmer w/o vodka.... as my levels w/ vodka were 0. If I could get them back down to 0 (assuming Ill be able to test for something higher than 0 tonight) with say, just this skimmer and no vodka dosing... that would provide 2 types of info. To me, what goes in the cup isnt important, its what is left in the tank.

So this is what I woke up to this morning... think I set it too wet? notice the actual particulate matter on the bottom. This thing seems to get alot of hard particles out rather well. Of note, I shook a carbon chamber in the sump, and little black bits came out. I found those bits dried to the collection cup lid when I cleaned it. Not bad.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/21ATBfullcupofmediumteainoneday.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/22ATBgrimeincup.jpg

This skimmer seems to work on a different principle than most. Rather than extending dwell time with height or by recirculating, it seems to try to catch as much water in a foam head. Rather than trying to make the proteins gather at the top by having each bubble attract a payload on the way, it seems more like making cream into whip cream, and then forcing it up in a non-turbulent, uniform manner towards the top, as if to catch all the proteins in the head and not allowing them to drain any faster than the rate the foam reaches the top. I dont know if that makes sense to anyone, or if Im right, but I can watch bubbles rise in the skimmer, and from about 1/3 of the way up to about 1/2, the bubbles that are trying to flow upwards just cant... they reach the 'waiting line' on the way up. So the bubbles sit, waiting, and perhaps giving a pretty long contact/interface. There are 'bits' of organic material that get stuck in the foam and I see them trying to drain, but they cant because the column of foam is so tall.

It seems the cone shape forces the bubbles that would otherwise be gathered in the top few inches of a cylinder to stack up taller, so as drainage happens in the neck, the organics that do drain have more underneath to come in comtact with. In that respect, thats why I say it reminds me of a beckett skimmer. My recirc couldnt do that, and it had a relatively narrow neck for the amount of air I was putting through it... but its neck was alot shorter. The neck was 8" tall, 3.5" wide, and had 1200lph of air coming up so I had to run the waterline at the base of the reducer funnel area and I still got medium dark tea, although only 1/3 of a cup per day w/o vodka.

So this thing reminds me of playing tetris upside down, but instead of having the full screen, you have one only 1/2 as wide. Yeah, tough for stuff to get away from getting collected.

hahnmeister
10/17/2007, 06:53 PM
When you look at the videos, look at the 'small one readjusted take 2' because the others are from when he was running the water level too high. He was getting microbubbles as well I bet. It also causes a 'crest' of bubbles that gets caught about 1.2" above the bubble plate where you can see the bubbles trying to rise, but getting caught in the downdraft of the water flow.

In the 'readjusted' one, you dont even see it. Id almost say he should just take those two previous videos down, because all they show is how not to adjust the skimmer, but, in that same respect, it provides info to customers on what is wrong, and how to correct it.

hahnmeister
10/17/2007, 06:54 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10994034#post10994034 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DeltecRules
Looking very impressive John. ATB looks like they are going to make it big in the US. Is Anton a one man show building these units? I know they are a small operation.

I dont know for sure. I know he's not alone, and I know he doesnt have a huge crew, but I dont know exactly where its at.

Creetin
10/17/2007, 07:04 PM
It looks impressive, and may i say it looks like it performs similar to the ATI. They way you describe it it reminds me of exactly the way the BM skimmers work. At least mine anyways.
I am still undecided in a New BK supermrin or a ATB. I dunno about the cone design i like the other large one they have though.

hahnmeister
10/17/2007, 07:53 PM
BK supers do look cool. Id almost be willing to say its a toss-up since we just havent seen a BK in action yet. By design, they share many concepts.

I dont see it as being as close to an ATI though. The flow in an ATI is different. You can see above an ATI that has had its body shortened, and its neck stretched. This would be similar. But the ATI allows water to exit further up on the foam column. So if I were a hard particle trying to get away, I would go with the flow up until just below the neck, and then drift with all the water down to the exit. This 'seperation/sorting' area in the ATI is more turbulent than the ATB.

The ATB mixes this area better. It also does'nt shoot 5000lph of air and water up a 7" diameter cylinder straignt to the neck... water and all. The ATB has much less turbulence, and because the 'cylinder' around the bubble plate is lower, the water can exit earlier, and can 'mingle' with the the bubbles in the midsection longer, as its path isnt being dictated by any internal tube. In short... the water is being allowed to take a much less turbulent path, even though there are some similarities in the foam. Still, the foam 'head' on the ATB goes pretty far down the body... almost 2/3 of the way down. The ATI's head doesnt start until past 1/2 way up where the neck begins. If you were to use a neck extension like mavgi did to his BM, then it would be more similar to this, yes. Still more turbulent though.

FWIW, Anton said that using a pump with higher air intake wouldnt improve the skimmer performance much. I think I know where he is coming from, or rather, what he is basing it on. The only way more air would do more (besides just meaning you skim wetter, but in this case, wetter doesnt mean better necessarily, just more water) is if the foam column would be taller or wider (larger volume), which means a larger skimmer body. I mean... what can I do?.. the body is full of bubbles as it is... putting 1200lph of air on it isnt going to mean much except the possibility of bubbles in the output of the foam head goes too low.

UNLESS... unless more air means less water turbulence. I could see that helping a bit. So I plan on removing the 'muffler' on mine (it only supports 1/4"), and making another DIY one for the 3/8" line, and using the ER volute until I can get an enlarged ATB venturi/muffler. I will also switch to the threadwheel since it seems that will be the preferred method according to Anton.

IDK, if more air doesnt mean anything, the only benefit I see of the threadwheel is more air and skimming wetter. It will most likely mean more water throughput as well (the threadwheel boosts air and water throughput). The 3/8" inlet makes sense because it drops the water throughput by increasing the air (yet the total potential is the same). In the long run, I would almost rather not have to clean the threadwheel / deal with it. Perhaps a 'matala' wheel... So maybe Ill just go needlewheel and 3/8" air inlet in the end.

Im happy with it. The woman is too... no more 30" tall 'big ugly' standing next to the tank, or a future 5' tall 'big ugly' either... although that still might be fun to do. What do you guys want to see from this skimmer?

Creetin
10/17/2007, 08:20 PM
The turbulence on a ATI is not that bad as you make it sound.
All the turb is lost in the bottom of the skimmer and it rises less turbulent thru the diffuser.
I get GFO,GAC,Detritus in my skimmer cup too. I thought i was paying a compliment. I'll just lurk here and not post, I am not here to stirr the pot.
I am not trying to take away from the Atb either I think it looks very well built and i am considering buying one. I am still undecided though. I would like to see the BK running.

hahnmeister
10/17/2007, 11:12 PM
No, I dont consider it stirring the pot, I really do think the ATB is less turbulent. The only part that you might see as being turbulent at all is around the outer edge of the ring/cylinder that goes around the bubble plate. This section is thin and turbulent as bubbles get caught in the downdraft, but it doesnt matter, its just a narrow area where the water goes down for sorting and going out the bottom, sometimes it is taking some bubbles with it, and it looks turbulent, but its just this one section. The rest of the bubble plate is alot smoother. The total throughput of the ATB is about 1/2 of the ATI BM250 though, and through a bubble plate that is 7" in diameter. I suppose it depends which video you were looking at as well.

Paulairduck
10/17/2007, 11:46 PM
I am no skimmer expert, I have just had a lot of skimmers. These question's are for Hahn, or anyone that has a lot of experience with skimmer's and the basic principles involved in the skimming process.I love the way these skimmers look and the way they are built.

Difference between needlewheel and beckett and how they react differently with the water in the skimmer?

The positives of the bubbleplate ?

What makes the cone principal better that the standard skimmer?

and if you have any other advice, please give it up.


The last question, who do we contact to order one????

:eek2: :bum: :eek1:

hahnmeister
10/18/2007, 12:26 AM
Well, I have only speculated as to the properties of a cone, I think ATB or KZ should provide their own data on that. IMO, there is something to it though.

As for needlewheel vs. beckett. The hard data is that a needlewheel has a better air:wattage ratio. Some beckett proponents claim their method of inducting water is better for other reasons... ORP, pH, etc. Or, that needlewheels can cause certain elements to precipitate out of the water. I dont want to say it isnt true, but I havent seen anything to back it up other than rumor here & there. To me, the only thing I can see between the two methods is that the mixing of a needlewheel is mechanical, rather than due to a vacuum, but both methods put air and water in moments where they are under pressure, and then under a relative vacuum. The only difference is that one has this happen inside a pump (sure, a beckett puts water through the pump, but not the air). Is it possible that the EM field of a megnetic drive pump causes some effect on the water? Dont know. Could the mechanical mixing induce some sort of static charge in the bubbles that causes them to be less efficient? Well... we can all speculate. But in the end, I dont think its anything that has been proven either way. Maybe some would like to read KZ's German patent on the KZ to see what it says. I can tell you though, there is little substance there beyond marketing claims (its not like they put scientific data into patents when they dont have to).

The bubble plate diffuses turbulence very well. Its along the lines of a spraybar. IMO, it allows you to have a much shorter skimmer, or a skimmer with the dwell time/contact time of a much taller skimmer.

As for ordering, http://www.atbskimmers.com/

frank2926
10/18/2007, 05:56 AM
Hahn, what do you think of the tank ratings. The nano rated up to 211 gals. ?

hahnmeister
10/18/2007, 12:31 PM
Yeah... its a bit on the high side. I dont know if I would go higher than 100g with the nano. I also wouldnt go higher than 200g with the 'Small'.

woz9683
10/18/2007, 12:40 PM
Well, I'd like to go ahead and ask for an inevitable comparison. Since they are running the exact same price, which would be your choice BK Mini 200 or ATB Small?

hahnmeister
10/18/2007, 01:10 PM
I cant say. Klaus hasn't sent me a BK mini 200 for evaluation yet.:lol:

The ATB has more space from the bubble plate to the top of the neck. The BK has a whole lot more air (the EU rating is 1000lph, but I think on 60hz they pull something like 1200lph). So its a real toss up that could have to do more with what kind of system you run it on. They seem to have two slightly different mehods as well.

I can tell you this though... the ATB needs to have the waterlevel around it kept constant in the same manner. I think I will go ahead and make the standpipe add-on for it (not a mod or anything permanent, more like an add-on). The water level in my sump does vary a little throughout the day, so the skimmer does as well. A standpipe eliminates that.

scarletknight06
10/18/2007, 01:39 PM
Don't mess with the skimmer.....make a skimmer box! (see the last post on the page).

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1169579&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

I thought it was a neat idea at least.

woz9683
10/18/2007, 02:27 PM
That is a neat idea, luckily I don't have that issue. The water level in my sump stays at the same level all the time. And by a stroke of luck (I mean...uh, carefully planning to every detail), the water level should be just about perfect for an ATB or BK Mini.

Pssh, Klaus needs to get on the ball with that then. He's making my decision tougher by not giving you freebies :rolleye1:

hahnmeister
10/18/2007, 05:19 PM
Lol. Im sure Klaus doesnt need to send me any skimmers because he doesnt need any advertising. The RE reputation alone is what sells his stuff.

As for the 'box'... thats pretty complicated for what you are doing, and it means that the skimmer gets even less of the flow through the sump since it is very likely it will recirculate its own output more. Its the same thing as having a baffle in your sump. In my case, the skimmer gets put in the lowest part of the sump, where the return pump is. I can keep the water level pretty steady down there... I just havent totally automated my ATI yet (I just do it by hand once a day). What can I say, I have been lazy on that. I should just get that line installed and be done with it.

The easier method really is to change the gate valve to a standpipe. With the BK, it would involve removing the valve all together. With the ATB, this isnt needed at all. You can just stick an elbow on the outlet... perhaps with a small piece of pipe attached to that for extra height, and then you can just tilt the elbow & pipe to get the right level in the skimmer. No need to modify the skimmer one bit.

GobyJohnKenobi
10/18/2007, 07:04 PM
This is a very intriguing skimmer design.

Glad to see it's performing well.

I wonder if the Nano Cone performs as well.
If so, I might have a winner for that 70 show tank.

Thanks for checking it out and posting your findings.

mavgi
10/18/2007, 08:55 PM
hahnmeister

congrats on the skimmer , but where it's your video ?

woz9683
10/22/2007, 11:40 AM
Well, it looks like I've got an ATB Small on the way. I can't wait for it to get here.

Al G Blenny
10/23/2007, 11:43 PM
I just got mine. This has to be the best skimmer I have used. I took lots of pics and detailed a time line from when I plugged it in. If anyone wants me to post a thread about it let me know. I don't want to waste RC space if nobody is interested. This skimmer takes out so much gunk. I didn't know I had that much waste in my tank. I was running a Deltec before and the ATB small takes out way more. I don't usually go crazy about equipment but this skimmer has exceeded my expectations by far.

hahnmeister
10/24/2007, 12:04 AM
Well, I had a chance to get into it with the skimmer again today. I think the pump needed a chance to 'break in' or something, as my results are slightly higher than they were the first day. I think the impellers must loosen up around the shaft a bit.

Anyways, I have some info on things...

I have been running the 3/8" air intake on the skimmer. I figure this should be okay, as it will lower the water turbulence a little because the skimmer will be taking in more air. So it shouldnt be too much, but a slight increase from 620 to almost 680lph or air. Not that that is a big deal in its own right, but the small increase in air means less water turbulence.

And, I think that the impeller has 'broken in' a little bit. There must be some 'honing' that happens between the impeller and shaft, because the air intake took a slight bump in output to about 730lph of air, not just 680 like before:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/34needlewheeland375inchintakebroken.jpg
The skimmer runs well at this amount of air, although I dont know if its up to Anton's standards for minimal turbulence... it is about a 30-45% increase in air output after all. The bubbles dont make it out the outlet though.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/38needlewheeland375inchintakebroken.jpg
I have been running it like that for a few days now, with the 3/8" intake. The 'mountain of bubbles' looks good still...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/25ATBmountainofbubble.jpg
I had to make a new muffler though, since the old one was too restrictive. I think Anton might end up sending me an actual 3/8" muffler and venturi combo at some point, but in the meantime...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/27Silencer1.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/28Silencer2.jpg
Filled with Phosguard for sound absorbtion...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/29Silencer3.jpg
Capped on the bottom...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/30Silencer4.jpg
And it drops right into the standpipe...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/31Silencer5andthecruddypot.jpg
I rather like it... it fits with the current design, takes up less space, allows air to breathe into the outlet pipe still, etc. On, and you might have noticed the cruddy pot of filth.

At one time, the skimmer made this in a day...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/26ATBspewingchunks.jpg
Now, I have it adjusted to make this every 2 days...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/35filthypotover2days.jpg
GAK!

hahnmeister
10/24/2007, 12:06 AM
GAK!
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/36filthypot.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/37chunks.jpg
^^^ I have circled the above. I dont know if you can see it well, but those are actual chunks of something in the cup. It looks as if the pump sucked in a fish, ground it up, and spit it into the cup almost.

But I 'revisited' the threadwheel as well. I noticed today that the arbor on the impeller for the threadwheel was a bit loose, so I tightened it. My previous tests with the threadwheel must have been with the threads slipping around the arbor of the impeller a little bit, because now, the pump can pull this...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/32threadwheeland375inchintakebroken.jpg
Thats right... 1000lph!
The problem is that the added ability for the threadwheel to handle air in the flow means more water flow as well, not just more air (or more air with less water like with just making the air intake larger), and the skimmer looks like this...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/33threadwheeland375inchintakebroken.jpg
The skimmer cant handle it. There is a good 100lph or so of air coming out the outlet like this. So unless the US skimmers were to be resized to handle the 60hz pump capacities (which could be up to a 50% increase in area, or from a 7" bubble plate to a 9" bubble plate, which would mean a base plate increase up to 11.5" at the base!), the threadwheel is simply out of the question. Waaay too much water flow along with all that air. Perhaps if Anton makes a custom volute like H&S, or does a face mount union w/ honed out threads on the outlet (outlet to 1-1/8" diameter is the result), and carves out the inside of the pump like a delted a little, this pump could throw 900-1000lph of air w/ just a needlewheel, but without all the water flow. Well see... but frankly, for this size, the ATB needlewheel w/ the 3/8" air intake is the best performance I have seen. I cant compare to the intended 50hz counterpart though. I wonder if I should hook up a 500lph Aquabee 2000/1 (what the 50hz ATB was designed for), maybe I can see what the 'original' was supposed to be like.

Still, I cant complain. After almost 2 weeks now, I can easily say this thing outperforms my previous skimmer. My previous skimmer had all kinds of advantages too... a 30" tall recirc with a Sicce PSK 2500 for 1200lph of air w/ pretty low turbulence (I even had a bubble 'pipe' (a 1" PVC pipe with holes in it like a bubble plate for turbulence reduction). The skimmer was also overflow fed... but it never collected crap like this thing can. The collection cups are about the same size after all, but the ATB just fills with darker, chunkier, and more. Id put this thing up against any eheim 1x1260 powered recirc skimmer. Its just a different beast. It really has me reconsidering my viewpoints on some skimming principles... rather than working all the magic with the path that the bubbles take on the way up by having a tall reaction chamber, this one seems to work more with the foam head more than anything. Beating the water into a froth, and then trapping everything in a mountain of foam... the large chunks say it all... and my previous skimmer wasnt shy in this department exactly... 1200lph of air through a 3.5" neck means alot of air flow going up through the neck... but this thing... its different. Its like its trying to prevent as much crap as possible from being lost during the draining stage in the neck. The effective interface time, dwell time, etc, of the water that is in the 'bubble mountain' is 'as long as needed' to get the crap out. I still cant get over the chunks.

And on a personal note, Anita loves not having 'big smelly' standing next to the tank anymore, and the noise is no longer a problem. This thing is pretty silent. There is a slight hum, no doubt a vibration that my glass sump is resonating... but its very mild and hardly noticable... and in my case, most likely nothing I can even blame the ATB pump for... just the way my sump is.

hahnmeister
10/24/2007, 12:09 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11039402#post11039402 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Al G Blenny
I just got mine. This has to be the best skimmer I have used. I took lots of pics and detailed a time line from when I plugged it in. If anyone wants me to post a thread about it let me know. I don't want to waste RC space if nobody is interested. This skimmer takes out so much gunk. I didn't know I had that much waste in my tank. I was running a Deltec before and the ATB small takes out way more. I don't usually go crazy about equipment but this skimmer has exceeded my expectations by far.

I agree. Please, go ahead and post your pics here for all to see, no need to make a seperate thread. My opinion has been made, so please, it would be great for other users to add their impressions and experiences right here.

I agree... the 'gunk factor' is pretty impressive. Which Deltec were you running, were you the guy with the 851?

prugs
10/24/2007, 09:41 AM
Nice looking skimmer!!!

Just a few questions.

1) Do you have any pictures of the arbor setup for the thread wheel?

2) Did you notice any stalling/surging of the pump when going to a 3/8" venturi? Was there any valve required on the 3/8" venturi inlet to keep the airflow stable?

3) How about a pic of your 3/8" venturi? Anything special about it?

Lumamae
10/24/2007, 09:54 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11039513#post11039513 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
I agree. Please, go ahead and post your pics here for all to see, no need to make a seperate thread. My opinion has been made, so please, it would be great for other users to add their impressions and experiences right here.
Sorry about the darkness of the Video as there wasn't much light in the cabinet. I was really interested in the ATB Nano, but it took so long to come out that I bought a refurbished ATi BM160 instead. But I still have my eye on the Nano. I stopped by the dealer's to see the Small in action.
ATB Small - Bottom of Cone Body with Eheim Pump
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc67/Lumamae/th_ATBBottom.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc67/Lumamae/?action=view&current=ATBBottom.flv)
ATB Small - Neck and Collection Cup
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc67/Lumamae/th_ATBTop.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc67/Lumamae/?action=view&current=ATBTop.flv)

hahnmeister
10/24/2007, 12:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11041214#post11041214 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gem Tang Rider
Nice looking skimmer!!!

Just a few questions.

1) Do you have any pictures of the arbor setup for the thread wheel?

2) Did you notice any stalling/surging of the pump when going to a 3/8" venturi? Was there any valve required on the 3/8" venturi inlet to keep the airflow stable?

3) How about a pic of your 3/8" venturi? Anything special about it?

I can take pics of the arbor setup. As it is though, the threadwheel eheim cant be used on the 'Small' model. Perhaps if there was a model in between the Small and Medium...lol.

Dont have any stalling/surging, no valve required. The venturi is the Euroreef eheim one (pics on previous pages). Ill use that until I can get a 3/8" from Anton. I could just drill the ATB one myself though as well... but like Anton's reason for insisting on sending me one of his pumps rather than I use my own, I will wait on 'official' parts as well rather than making my own. I have no doubt that it will work the same anyways though, with the exception of the air inlet.

woz9683
10/24/2007, 12:39 PM
Hey Hahn,

Any idea if this next round of skimmers they're sending will have the 3/8" airline and venturi?

gabe3d
10/24/2007, 12:50 PM
That's some very impressive performance.

RGibson
10/24/2007, 01:35 PM
The ATB skimmers are not very impressive when all of there skimmers must go in the sump and none are external.

hahnmeister
10/24/2007, 01:46 PM
There are externals... but not in the cone series... YET. Just wait and see... just wait and see...

RGibson
10/24/2007, 02:55 PM
I talk to ATB just two hours ago and was told that thay make no external skimmers of any kind.

hahnmeister
10/24/2007, 06:34 PM
I suppose, the D400 is recirc, but with its bottom opening like it does, it cant be external. The D600 might still be though.

Making an external line has been brought up, but for now, the most cost effective way would be to add a sump/tank compartment to your sump.... and run them internal an external sump. The design change required to make these external would require some rather expensive add-ons, but I know the idea is on the table.

RGibson
10/24/2007, 06:44 PM
Thay need to take a long look at B-K external skimmer or a Beckett skimmer.

rishma
10/24/2007, 06:45 PM
I have a strong preference for recirc and a small preference for external. A cone main body with cylinder bottom to mount the pump recirc would not be a difficult design change. Then I would be sold.

Great looking skimmer hahn.

GuySmilie
10/24/2007, 10:59 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11039402#post11039402 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Al G Blenny
I just got mine. This has to be the best skimmer I have used. I took lots of pics and detailed a time line from when I plugged it in. If anyone wants me to post a thread about it let me know. I don't want to waste RC space if nobody is interested. This skimmer takes out so much gunk. I didn't know I had that much waste in my tank. I was running a Deltec before and the ATB small takes out way more. I don't usually go crazy about equipment but this skimmer has exceeded my expectations by far.
Sure I'm interested! Would love to see pix. RC's got plenty of space. :D

Al G Blenny
10/24/2007, 11:53 PM
Trying out first pic. Sorry if this doesn't work. New photo hosting site for me. Photobucket problems.

This is a pic of the ATB small almost completely taken apart.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2061/1739700882_607c2039fd_m.jpg

gabe3d
10/24/2007, 11:56 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11047080#post11047080 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Al G Blenny
Trying out first pic. Sorry if this doesn't work. New photo hosting site for me. Photobucket problems.

This is a pic of the ATB small almost completely taken apart.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2061/1739700882_607c2039fd.jpg?v=0

Very nice, i love the disassembly! Wow, even the neck comes off.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2061/1739700882_607c2039fd.jpg

BTW, you forgot to put the keywords around the URL. :)

Al G Blenny
10/25/2007, 12:11 AM
Thanks. I edited my post. I'm not sure what keywords are but I found a different address to put in the img boxes. I'm not very technical so sorry if that sounds dumb.

Here is a pic of how the lower internal ring attaches to the bottom plate of the skimmer.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2003/1739702088_ec3b34d807.jpg?v=0

Now the bubble plate and the ring that goes above that.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2334/1738854617_892329bfe8.jpg?v=0

Nice pic of main body assembly.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2235/1738856297_31b3418ec2.jpg?v=0

MAN! I don't want this to turn into a "how to post pics thread" but this is so annoying. I am posting these the same exact way as above but they don't work. This happens to me all the time with R.C. and I don't know why. I put the IMG tags around the pics but they don't show up. What the heck am I doing wrong?

gabe3d
10/25/2007, 12:21 AM
You almost got it right :)

Just remove the ?v=0 after the .jpg.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11047144#post11047144 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Al G Blenny
Thanks. I edited my post. I'm not sure what keywords are but I found a different address to put in the img boxes. I'm not very technical so sorry if that sounds dumb.

Here is a pic of how the lower internal ring attaches to the bottom plate of the skimmer.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2003/1739702088_ec3b34d807.jpg

Now the bubble plate and the ring that goes above that.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2334/1738854617_892329bfe8.jpg

Nice pic of main body assembly.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2235/1738856297_31b3418ec2.jpg

Al G Blenny
10/25/2007, 12:29 AM
Great! Thanks! Here we go with pics of the stand pipe

Bottom cut out so you can adjust outflow

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2369/1739706752_071ee97858.jpg

Pic of it upside down so you can see the muffler

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2010/1738858727_5146234267.jpg

Standpipe completely open

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2251/1738860315_36a90c9b8b.jpg

Now Partially closed

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2402/1739709736_f4ba98a6d1.jpg

Notice the red pins on the pipe and the pipe holder. When they are lined up to each other, the pipe is open all the way. The farther apart they are, the more closed it is

Al G Blenny
10/25/2007, 12:49 AM
Now the fun stuff

Seconds after first plugging it in

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2377/1738864179_781b213efd.jpg

My sump is at 7". Recommended water height is 6-8".

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2379/1738865367_63140b3701.jpg

Three minutes after plugging it in. The top of the foam is at 8" in the skimmer body. At this point I clearly see some brown bubbles collecting at the top.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2197/1738864701_e3935c2e5f.jpg

Nine minutes in and I am now amazed. You can see how brown the top layer is. Not only that but it is easy to see that there are three layers of bubbles in the chamber. The bottom is filled with what looks like solid micro bubbles. No water except under the bubble plate. Next is a section of large bubbles above the fine ones. Then the best part is there is a pillow of foam just hovering above the rest. It just floats up and down gathering more brown bubbles when it dips down. Remember this is less than ten minutes after the first setup and it is already pulling stuff out that my old skimmer didn't. I was running an AP851 and it was all skimmed out at this point. Not much being collected every day. It is a very good skimmer but the ATB picked up a lot of slack that the Deltec left behind.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2004/1738865933_d618d6e1a1.jpg

Here you can see the "pillow" floating up.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2001/1738866525_a5cc9e7621.jpg

Al G Blenny
10/25/2007, 12:58 AM
About an hour later and some gunk was building up in the skimmer but not in the cup. Took these pics then closed the pipe a bit.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2370/1739719586_b52aab5cf3.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2315/1739720328_5952d28ebc.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2205/1739721222_99cec72bbf.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2317/1739722276_7517eda987.jpg

gabe3d
10/25/2007, 12:59 AM
This is also what i mentioned/noticed about my KZ skimmer when I got it and how it more or less forces bubbles to merge as it rises due to the smaller area as it higher up in the cone. It's amazing how much faster a conical skimmer builds up the foam head compared to a cylindrical skimmer.

I'm really interested to see how much different a venturi version of it performs compared to the beckett on in the KZ. Please keep the pics coming :) very good documentation and interesting info.

Al G Blenny
10/25/2007, 01:01 AM
About another hour after I raised the water height in the skimmer (which was still much lower than any other skimmer I have used) and it started to collect so I called it a night.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2012/1739723258_bb33fb2534.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2203/1738875443_9c2d418b95.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2002/1738877217_7b99ab0a16.jpg

Maximus
10/25/2007, 01:02 AM
Hey Matt, is there any reason why you didn't run the water level a bit higher? How's the family?

gabe3d
10/25/2007, 01:10 AM
Did you clean the top of the cone after you readjusted it? I've noticed that for my skimmer the top of the cone is barely dirty and if it does get dirty then it gets more or less cleaned by the bubbles. Is that your experience as well?

Al G Blenny
10/25/2007, 01:13 AM
Yeah I can't imagine ever buying a cylindrical skimmer ever again. I bet all the big skimmer companies will be following suite with the cones in the near future. It's kinda like the difference between a Tunze stream and a Seio. One is refined and the other uses brute force. The cone skimmers can use a lot less energy to collect a lot more crud.

I woke up in the morning and the thing was going crazy. I guess I opened it up too much which I can see lots of people doing if they are used to normal skimmers. It's amazing how low you can keep the water in chamber. It's in the lower third as compared to most other skimmers needing it up as high as the neck. I didn't take any pics because nobody wants to see a cup full of water. I cleaned it out and adjusted down. When I got home that evening this is what I saw.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2088/1739726764_c82f668cc8.jpg

I got lazy and stopped taking pics but this was a few days later after cleaning it out once. I only have three green chromis in the tank and I hardly ever feed. I wonder where all this stuff is coming from. I'm sure it will slow down after it has collected all this extra stuff. I'll keep you guys posted.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2121/1738880681_0da90a1102.jpg

Al G Blenny
10/25/2007, 01:17 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11047269#post11047269 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Maximus
Hey Matt, is there any reason why you didn't run the water level a bit higher? How's the family?

Hi Sang! Hows it goin? Everyone is great. Shelby is getting big. Let me know when you get your new tank set up. I send you some frags.

The skimmer has to be kept low. Just a small adjustment and it will get very watery skimmate. I like to get dark gunk personally.

Al G Blenny
10/25/2007, 01:18 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11047290#post11047290 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gabe3d
Did you clean the top of the cone after you readjusted it? I've noticed that for my skimmer the top of the cone is barely dirty and if it does get dirty then it gets more or less cleaned by the bubbles. Is that your experience as well?
No I didn't. I didn't even think about that.

Maximus
10/25/2007, 01:35 AM
We are all good, thanks for asking. I'll definitely hit you up when my tank is ready. Good luck with your skimmer.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11047304#post11047304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Al G Blenny
Hi Sang! Hows it goin? Everyone is great. Shelby is getting big. Let me know when you get your new tank set up. I send you some frags.

The skimmer has to be kept low. Just a small adjustment and it will get very watery skimmate. I like to get dark gunk personally.

mavgi
10/25/2007, 06:36 AM
look great i always love those con skimmer and here everyone can see the result.

xinumaster
10/25/2007, 10:34 AM
Hi Matt, How do you adjust the water level?

uhuru
10/25/2007, 10:44 AM
Al G Blenny that's very impressive. Thanks for sharing the pictures. I think what amazes me the most though is the skimmer is replacing a Deltec AP851 (which is aso powered by an eheim correct?). Just looking at the pictures one might say well you just have a dirty tank but that certainly wasn't the case!

uhuru
10/25/2007, 10:44 AM
dp

hahnmeister
10/25/2007, 11:08 AM
xinumaster,
you adjust the water level by twisting the standpipe, which turns the opening at the bottom of the pipe like a gate valve. Its very much like the system for a Bubbleking mini.

uhuru,
I have had the same result. My previous skimmer, if it made that much skimmate in a day, would make all light-tea colored stuff. Now, I have it adjusted to make the same (because I dont feel like having to empty it every day) volume, but its much darker. And the chunks! Thats what I cant get over...

Today I cleaned the cup again, and as I reached for the cup, I noticed an amphipod that was stuck in the foam, at the top of the head, in the neck!!! It was swimming around, trying to get down, but it couldnt!

On a related note, as more of a long-term report, well... I tried to get some sort of nitrate/phosphate reading in the tank by stopping the alchohol dosing and removing the phosguard (or rather, not replacing it like I normally do). And I took note of the 'yellow chart' on the side wall of the tank.

The 'yellow chart' is something I picked up from my cichlid keeking days. You get a sheet printed of various yellow tints, on a scale from light to dark, and number them. you then place this chart on the back of your tank, or in my case, on one of the sides so you cant see it from the front, and lengthwise for me provides more distance through the water, and I have starphire side panels, where the back is regular plate and so it has some green to it. Now, its a relative scale, since the distance through the glass will vary, and the shades of yellow will vary due to the printer/paper, etc. But it gives a user a good way of comparing relative water clarity values. When the water reaches a certain level of yellow, the lighter shades of yellow will not be visible, and then depending on what you figure out is a good point thats when you know you have to do your water changes (at least on a non-reef system).

On a reef, it allows me to keep track of my organic levels, or the 'yellow' in the water.

I would like to add this though. I have stopped alchohol dosing (which did clear my water up after less than a week of use), and my water did get a bit yellow there for a bit. But since the ATB, my water is clearer than ever. I even let my carbon go (it clogs up after a week or so, so its effectively shut down). The water on my 'yellow scale' is clearer than when I was vodka dosing.

Now, that may not be a comparable nitrate/phosphate reading (which would be relative to my tank only so its all relative really), but that does say something. This ATB 'Small' skimmer, no vodka, no ethanol = clearer than 30" tall 1200lph recirc.overflow fed skimmer, 6ml ethanol daily, and carbon changed every 2-3 weeks.

Thats something you can take to the bank.

hansmatt
10/25/2007, 11:25 AM
yeah, and you don't waste the vodka!

Fishbulb2
10/25/2007, 11:41 AM
Hahn, what size tank is this skimmer on again, and what is your bioload like? Just want to know for comparison. Also, what is the neck diameter on this skimmer? Thanks.
FB

gabe3d
10/25/2007, 12:07 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11049828#post11049828 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fishbulb2
Hahn, what size tank is this skimmer on again, and what is your bioload like? Just want to know for comparison. Also, what is the neck diameter on this skimmer? Thanks.
FB

His bioload was posted on the second page.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10994800#post10994800 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Okay, let me give some details here. My 125g (48x30x21"h) has the following fish:
Royal Gramma (2")
6 x solar fair wrasse (2-3"ea)
1x Temmincki fairy wrasse (3")
Pyjama Cardinal (1.5")
2x yellow watchman goby (1")
1x Pacific Regal Blue Tang (2")
1x Striated Tang (2")
1x Yellow Tang (3")
1x Red Sea Purple Tang (2.5")
1x Lamarck's Angelfish (2.5", but fat, very fat... like a guppy)

I feed 2x a day. 1x with Spectrum dry pellets in the morning, then 1x Rod's Reef Frozen Food at night.

...

hahnmeister
10/25/2007, 04:53 PM
I have about 50 corals in that tank, from frags to 8" diameter SPS colonies... but IME, the corals help filter just as much as they add... not like fish which generate pure crap. For me, I can stock a tank to the lip with corals, and the skimmate production isnt all that high. But once I reach a certain limit with the fish load... then things jump like mad.

I feed once in the morning with spectrum pellet, and once at night with something frozen like Rod's Reef... sometimes cyclopeez or something else, and I go through only a 1/4 sheet of nori with the tangs a week at best.

As far as inverts, I do have 4 crocea clams in there, a BTA anemone, and 40-50 astrae, trochus, and super tongan snails. But I would have to say most of the load is coming from the fish which I mentioned earlier. I do have a tuxedo urchin in the fuge aws well (keeps the bad algae away but doesnt eat chaeto).

I also have a 20g fuge in the sump with a 5" sand bed, chaeto, and 'tang heaven' macro algae. So that helps. I usually change the 6 oz. of carbon every other week, as well as the 6oz. of phosguard/ban. The return pump is an eheim 1250 which gives me 200-250gph of flow through my sump.

gabe3d
10/25/2007, 05:31 PM
Wow, that's a lot of livestock and feeding. How were your parameters prior to the installation of the new skimmer? Sounds like you might have had some problems since your skimmer was not picking up the slack.

hahnmeister
10/25/2007, 06:18 PM
Well, I was dosing 6ml everclear every day (95% ethanol), and with the help of carbon and phosguard, the skimmer SHOULD have been holding down the fort... recirc, overflow fed, 1200lph...

And it was, dont get me wrong. Other companies rate a skimmer like that for 250gallons with only 900lph of air... mine is a 125g.

The tank is only 6 months old though too... so there may have been some of those 'long term' cycles that the tank was going through since I do have about a 1-2" deep sandbed that is new, even though the LR (about 90lbs?) is all from previous systems.

With what I was doing, my nitrates and phosphates were all 0, but my water was slightly yellower. Thats why I appologized to everyone, since my test of this skimmer wouldnt involve any actual test readings to compare because even with stopping my alchohol dosing and not changing the carbon, the readings were still 0.

The yellow in the water is the only factor I could compare in the end. What does it mean? Well, my previous skimmer and filtration was able to remove the waste, or rather deal with it in its own way. But the ATB is able to remove more of the raw waste before the LR has to deal with it. This means the carbon has less 'tint' to remove, and the phosguard has less to remove as well. The 'raw waste' was being dealt with before by a combination of all those methods together... the skimmer removed what it could, but left some organics to be dealt with by the live rock... being converted in the nitrogen cycle to nitrate, which means more yellow as a byproduct of this process (this is also where phosphates get generated). Then the carbon had to remove this, and the phosguard had to remove the phosphate. Then, what couldnt be processed 100% by the LR was scooped up by the bacteria that I induced by dosing ethanol, and then these bacteria were harvested by the skimmer (ethanol dosing makes the skimmer more able to harvest organics that it wouldnt be able to otherwise, and let me tell you, it worked very well... my skimmate output would double, and become darker when dosing everclear) in the end, the readings were still 0, but I had to use additional things like carbon, phosguard, refugium, and sometimes ethanol to deal with it.

Less yellow to me would seem that the ATB skimmer is able to remove more organics from the water BEFORE the other systems have to deal with them. The LR has less raw waste to convert to nitrate, therefore making less phosphates, and less yellow. So while I couldnt figure out a way to 'boost' these waste levels for the 'before' comparison (although I did lose an 'Atlantis Ultimate Deepwater Acro', so there must have been some sort of stress added) by not dosing ethanol, or changing my carbon, I was able observe clearer water with just the ATB skimmer, and no more ethanol/carbon.

It may not be a test from a Salifert test kit, but its still some hard data to compare.

Lumamae
10/25/2007, 10:21 PM
Let's try the videos again. This isn't my skimmer, I am considering the Nano Size and this is a Small Size. It's being tested at a dealer's who I maybe buying my Nano Size from. The bubbles are like white cream floating to the top of the skimmer. So, hopefully this helps all those that wanted to see an actual video of the bubbles and foaming in motion.
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc67/Lumamae/th_ATBPump.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc67/Lumamae/?action=view&current=ATBPump.flv)
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc67/Lumamae/th_ATBBottom-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc67/Lumamae/?action=view&current=ATBBottom-1.flv)
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc67/Lumamae/th_ATBTop-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc67/Lumamae/?action=view&current=ATBTop-1.flv)

Emster
11/02/2007, 07:57 PM
How is this thing doing? You still like it?

rishma
11/02/2007, 08:59 PM
how much air does the nano pull?

hahnmeister
11/02/2007, 10:26 PM
At the best, an eheim 1250 can pull 400lph... I couldnt tell you though yet. Have to ask atbskimmer.com

kdblove_99
11/03/2007, 06:21 AM
Man if i had the cash!

I have a 60 cube and 55G sump and use a DAS EX1 which does an incredible job. but this skimmer looks off the hook:)

hahnmeister
11/07/2007, 12:28 AM
Here, I thought I would post some pics...

I forgot to clean out my cup, and the next day I got this...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/44ATB.jpg
Just thought I would do this to show that any skimmer can do this.
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/43ATB.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/41ATB.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/40ATB.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/45ATBwithQO3000.jpg
Yes, in that last pic... Im testing out the Quiet One 3000. It shows some potential on this skimmer. The big question is... 'would you give up on the eheim name for it though?'

I cant make my mind up myself. The QO, being a lower flow pump, is more sensitive to back-pressure. It also doesnt throw as much water as the eheim though, so I ended up raising the sump level to 10" and running the skimmer in that water depth. The air can get up to 1000+ lph this way, and no microbubbles in the output. Noise-wise, I do have a hum, but thats mostly from the pump being mounted w/o a soft tube to the main skimmer. I think the hum is from a vibration in the standpipe.... not the pump itself (Ive plumbed this pump before and had it end up dead silent... just ask nait002).

JCTewks
11/07/2007, 12:51 AM
Jon, is the skimate in the pics from running with the QO? Also, is that a meshmodded QO? Do you notice less turbulence in the skimmer running the lower flow pump?

hahnmeister
11/07/2007, 02:06 AM
No, that skimmate is not from the QO. I havent taken pics of that yet. It is meshmodded, yes, and it is less turbulence, yes (less water flow).

Lumamae
11/07/2007, 12:11 PM
This was the model I was extremely interested in earlier, but couldn't wait, so purchased an BM instead. Just heard that my skimmer dealer will be testing the Nano next week. Can't wait!

Nano includes the meshwheel Eheim 1250 (smaller brother to 1260)

Julio
11/07/2007, 12:14 PM
amazing results! i am gonna have to get one soon.

Lumamae
11/07/2007, 12:22 PM
Seems like the ATBs are out performing Deltecs based on the photos and discussions I've heard. When I saw the foaming on the ATB Small, the bubbles float up more similar to the standard size Bubbleking than Deltec.

xinumaster
11/07/2007, 01:13 PM
Hi Hahn, what happens when you feed your animals with cyclop-eeze? Does the bubbles drop down to below the neck? My ER does this every time I feed my corals and fish with cyclop-eeze, and so I don't get skimmate at night.

ATB website does not show what pump is used on their normal cone skimmer. Do you know what pump it will use?

Jim_S
11/07/2007, 01:46 PM
All skimmers will do this. Especially those with meshwheels. Certain foods contain oils that compromise the surface tension of water. As a result, skimmers lose their foam head until those oils are gone.

I have a feeling that they will be using an "ATB" version of the laguna that RE makes red dragons from. But that is just a feeling....

crab0000
11/07/2007, 01:52 PM
Do any stateside retailers have these in stock?

victor90
11/07/2007, 02:04 PM
As of right now atbskimmers.com has the small and nanos in stock. The normal and xl will be available towards the end of the month.

hahnmeister
11/07/2007, 02:12 PM
There will be Laguna based pumps used for the Med and larger skimmers. I gave them the specs for how to get the most air from the Lagunas from the least wattage... which includes using an even larger volute/impeller-well than the Red Dragon pumps. The 2400 Laguna is capable of over 4000lph of air like this... although the problem is... this will mean a whole new XXL skimmer to handle that much (although the water turbulence does drop, so it may not have to be too wicked huge). The 2000 and 1500 will have their versions as well... using smaller intake/output, etc... so they will match up better with the other skimmers. Anton is even considering a redone version of the Lagna 600/900 for the smaller skimmers, the results are that good.

Its been a while since I talked with Victor about it, but he suggested that I would be getting one of the larger beasts to test out... and luckily I have a couple buddies with 1000g+ systems close to me that I can test it out on.

Lumamae
11/07/2007, 06:33 PM
Victor & HahnM,
Can you guys rename these for USA market, instead of Nano, Small, Normal and XL? The Nano isn't for nano tanks, it's capacity is probably around 100g - 150g range, probably 200g is optimistic. Maybe call it by the diameter x height?

hahnmeister
11/07/2007, 06:51 PM
I dont know, I think numbers tend to get confused alot and mixed up more than a name. Sometimes people cant figure out what the numbers stand for, or the one number stands for something that more than one model has, and then you have to go adding even more numbers. Its a valid point though... just keep in mind that in the EU, many refer to their 100g-300g reefs as micro or mini reefs, and nano is pretty much anything under 100g it seems. What we call nano might be a pico to them. Not that they are used to larger reefs even... they just use different names for different sizes. Our 'Large Tank' Forum might be called 'mini-reef' forum over there...lol... because compared to nature, it is pretty tiny. So their 'nano' is named pretty correctly when you consider it all. If there was a 12" tall, 2" neck, 4" base cone skimmer with 200lph of air for what we consider 'nanos', it would most likely end up as a 'pico'.

... 12" tall, 2"neck, 4" base cone skimmer with a 200lph pump (what, an eheim 1048?)... lol... that would be cute. Too bad most nano users end up using nano cubes or HOB models... that would be cool otherwise... prolly handle up to a 40g.

Perhaps a letter designation would be best... like Mercedes... or a number that doesnt mean anything... but then again... things get confusing with arbitrary numbers like this. The 'A' class, or 'B' class... its crazy.

Anton uses numbers on his other skimmers... like the D150, D200, or 400... think its based on the diameter like H&S and ATI, and BK's do it. Only the cones cant go by that due to their shape. Or should the number be related to the maximum tank rating... or reasonable tank rating? The nano would be the 100, the Small be the 200, and the Medium be the the 400... and on? Ill agree, if there ends up being some mid-models, like one between the Small and the Medium (1000lph), this could be a problem... what then... 'Medium Small?'...lol.

hahnmeister
11/09/2007, 01:54 AM
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/PUMPE.jpg

How you like that monster? I put details here:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11147090

Thats just the smaller one, it gets something like 2300lph. Its been downsized on purpose so it can run the 'Medium' size w/o making it into a foam cannon. Really though, its just a smaller output than the monster 4000lph one.

Oh, and on a side note, I have some dimensions to post for those who asked. I completely broke down the skimmer today for cleaning, and when I set it back up, I actually got 850lph of air with the needlewheel... go figure. Anyways, the holes in the bubbleplate are just over 1/4" around... not quite 5/16" though... most likely something metric right in between. The bubble plate on the ATB 'Small' is 5.9" around as well... not 7". I got the 7" from Anton, as that is the total size of the disk, not just the inner 'updraft' area. So the inner area is pretty much 6" around.

I also got an air reading on the nano.... that little 1250 pump has been seriously 'jacked'. The output has been enlarged and has a face-bonded fitting (so its even larger than the anticipated 1255), its a threadwheel, and has some of the inside grinded out. It gets 660lph! This thing is 80% of what the 'Small' is!!! Now that price on the Nano is beginning to make sense. I dont know about the 210g rating, but it could prolly handle a 150 pretty well, and pretty much toss a 100g.

I want one of those modded 1250s though... thats a mean little pump. Its outperforming an Aquabee 2000/1!!!

xinumaster
11/09/2007, 02:04 AM
Can't wait to see this monster in action. I been holding up in getting a BK cause I want to see how the medium ATB performs.

recife111
11/10/2007, 06:19 AM
Seems like the ATBs are out performing Deltecs based on the photos and discussions

It would be hard to find out if the ATB is out performing Deltecs or any other quality skimmer.

I still fail to see how having a conical skimmer is going to perform so much better.

Some of the photos showing the waste seems to be very light brown which does not mean it is skimming better but just wetter.

recife111
11/10/2007, 06:31 AM
Thats just the smaller one, it gets something like 2300lph
Its great to get so much air but what i have found is that if you put to much air in a skimmer it does not skim that well.

Most skimmers i have used i had to turn teh airflow right down to get better skimming, especially in the bubble king skimmers,

So whilst it looks impressive to have so much air it is pretty useless unless you get the correct balance between air/water.

hahnmeister
11/10/2007, 11:03 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11153968#post11153968 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by recife111
Its great to get so much air but what i have found is that if you put to much air in a skimmer it does not skim that well.

Most skimmers i have used i had to turn teh airflow right down to get better skimming, especially in the bubble king skimmers,

So whilst it looks impressive to have so much air it is pretty useless unless you get the correct balance between air/water.

The body sizes will be changed as well to accomidate the new pumps... sound better?

recife111
11/10/2007, 01:42 PM
hahnmeister wrote
The body sizes will be changed as well to accomidate the new pumps... sound better?

Sorry i was referring to most skimmers.

I dont see many skimmers running the airtap fully open. so having a pump putting in millions of litres of air will not make better skimming unless you have the right ratio between air/water.

For example Deltec says the skimmers draw 750 L of air. Basically pointless as the skimmers skims better when the air tap is at say 2oclock setting. you get much smaller bubbles.

The Red dragon pumps are very nice and well built pumps. Maybe one of the best in IMO

pjf
11/13/2007, 08:18 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10995458#post10995458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Im happy with it. The woman is too... no more 30" tall 'big ugly' standing next to the tank, or a future 5' tall 'big ugly' either... although that still might be fun to do. What do you guys want to see from this skimmer?
Hahn,

You had plans for building a tall low-turbulence counter-current skimmer with a wetneck and recirculating pump. Have your plans changed as a result of the ATB? Are you confident that your DIY skimmer will out-skim the ATB? If you are still planning to proceed with DIY skimmer plans, what design concepts will you borrow from the ATB?

A penny for your thoughts.

hahnmeister
11/14/2007, 01:24 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11155793#post11155793 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by recife111
hahnmeister wrote


Sorry i was referring to most skimmers.

I dont see many skimmers running the airtap fully open. so having a pump putting in millions of litres of air will not make better skimming unless you have the right ratio between air/water.

For example Deltec says the skimmers draw 750 L of air. Basically pointless as the skimmers skims better when the air tap is at say 2oclock setting. you get much smaller bubbles.

The Red dragon pumps are very nice and well built pumps. Maybe one of the best in IMO

You are correct with what you say, but it just doesnt apply here. Deltecs in the US also run at 900lph due to the 20% faster speed. If all you did was restrict the air, the pumps would move that much more water, and the skimmer turbulence would be nuts. The solution is to use different impellers, with less/shorter pins, to lower the water movement through the pump. The air intake stays the same though unless you restrict the air down to 750lph. The solution deltec uses is pretty much turning back the potential on the pump so the pump isnt too much for the body. They have to restrict the water and air intake to do this. I dont want to get too much into why Deltec has to tell their US customers to run the air partly restricted here on this thread, but the pinwheels arent the same either... so the pumps are made to pull less water as well. The alternative would be to let the Deltec pumps run full blast 900lph with the extra water as well... but its too much for the diameter of the bodies. If you think that cutting the air intake back to the 750lph mark like the 50hz ones produces the same results, think again. The pumps still run 20% faster, so they are blending 20% better. The pumps in the EU arent making as fine of bubbles as 60hz ones set to 750lph.

But where you are wrong is the air/water ratio. The Deltecs in the US arent changing the air/water ratio, they are recirculating skimmers after all... so the water throughput of the mixing pump is not important at all.

The other solution is to get as much as possible from the pumps, let them run full bore on skimmer bodies that are just reproportioned to match the new pumps. The air and water ratios of the pumps dont actually change from the EU and US, they just make more here. The size of the bubbles, etc will be the same as the 50hz versions... just 20% larger.

hahnmeister
11/14/2007, 01:41 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11177516#post11177516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pjf
Hahn,

You had plans for building a tall low-turbulence counter-current skimmer with a wetneck and recirculating pump. Have your plans changed as a result of the ATB? Are you confident that your DIY skimmer will out-skim the ATB? If you are still planning to proceed with DIY skimmer plans, what design concepts will you borrow from the ATB?

A penny for your thoughts.

Thats the million dollar question. I think the cone design, and 'stacking' the bubbles like this is a possible alternative to having a tall column of water w/ bubbles flowing up as far as dwell time is concerned. Rather than having the bubbles freely rising through the water, they instead get 'stacked' in the body/neck waiting in the head longer rather than in the cylinder. Is it better? I dont know and cant say. In my case it sure is.

This skimmer is what I will use for now, as it appears to work the best with my system. In my case, I know my other half is glad to have the big ugly recirc skimmer next to the tank gone, so I dont think Ill be setting up the 5' tall skimmer other than to see how it works in comparison. I will still make the 'tall column' skimmer to compare... so I dont know what to say. I really havent come to any conclusions right now other than this thing is outperforming my 30" tall, 8" diameter 1200lph of air, overflow fed recirc skimmer by far.

What have I learned, or what may I 'borrow'? The cone shape is pretty wicked and so any time the opportunity comes up, a transition neck with a very steep angle would be better than less of an angle. It seems to disrupt the bubbles as they rise alot less. Will it change my plans for the 5' tall one? Not really, as they are different beasts all together.

CruzinKim
11/17/2007, 01:56 PM
A local Bay Area reefer just started a ATB Club thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1252315

dudedudedude
12/17/2007, 06:07 PM
Hahn,

What is the water level hieght in the skimmer when the QO3000 is hooked up?

Do you think the QO3000 is a good match for this style of skimmer and if so, what dimensions for the skimmer, ie base diameter, neck diameter, would be optimal for this skimmer type and the QO3000's output?

hahnmeister
12/18/2007, 12:38 AM
I keep the water level at the same height, but the valve on the outlet is closed more.

The pump is a good match, but its not as quiet as the eheim.

JCTewks
12/18/2007, 12:41 AM
so a GO3000 and the heavily modded eheim 150 are close in air draw? I never would have guessed that :eek1:

hahnmeister
12/18/2007, 12:50 AM
Well, the mesh is a huge factor.

JCTewks
12/18/2007, 12:56 AM
Yes, but I've meshmodded the QO before, and it maxes out around 20lpm. what is the QO you have on there pulling? what does the mesh 1250 pull? IIRC youi said the 1250 was pulling 750lph with mesh...is that right?

mavgi
12/18/2007, 12:59 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11408504#post11408504 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
I keep the water level at the same height, but the valve on the outlet is closed more.

The pump is a good match, but its not as quiet as the eheim.

are you run the skimmer with the QO 3000 , if yes how much air you pull with it?

hahnmeister
12/18/2007, 02:12 AM
I did, I posted the readings in this thread earlier... dont remember off the top of my head.

RGibson
12/21/2007, 09:30 AM
hahnmeister how come ATB is having a hard time building a external skimmer?

hahnmeister
12/24/2007, 06:14 PM
They arent having a hard time... cant do everything at once you know. Building an external isnt so hard... building one in this case that isnt 2x as much $$$ is though. These cone bodies with bubble plates just dont convert to external all that easily.

An 'internal recirc' would be easy, but just to make the Small in external would most likely require $500 more. There is a 10" base flange, some extra height maybe, a new neck/cup connection, external plumbing, unions, etc... and the outlet would have to be redone with a standpipe of some sort.

I sent some plans for an external that would be easier to do by placing the pumps inside the base of the skimmers, simplifying the plumbing alot and silencing the pump by keeping it underwater still, but adding about 4" to the height.

There is another design which could be done similar to the HOB skimmer (Zurück hängend Abschäumer). which would be even simpler, but again, perhaps cost more in the end.

Gee... a new pump line, new skimmer dimensions to match the US specs and new pumps, a new HOB model, new needlewheel for the 1250 pump, and developing a 3'-42" tall XXL model. Thats alot to do you know. How many new products do you see other companies whipping out that fast?

woz9683
12/27/2007, 11:35 PM
How many new products do you see other companies whipping out that fast?
Hopefully not too many. I, for one, would much rather wait for a company to R&D a product as much as possible before introducing it to market. I'm sure ATB is moving just as quickly as they can on their product development without being hasty. After all, on top of all the stuff Hahn mentioned, the American market as a whole is new territory to ATB and I'm sure they're still increasing production of their current lines to meet the new demand.

dzeadow
01/16/2008, 08:10 AM
Hahn, I may have missed this, but did you ever try the psk2500 style venturi on the eheim? if so, did you get any better results?

Jim_S
01/16/2008, 09:01 AM
I am hoping to get an external as soon as they are available. I built my system for a eternal unit. I also like having the skimmer outside the sump for several reasons. Of course, I would not even consider a purchase if the pumps were placed inside the skimmer body. Quite possibly the worst design I can imagine......

hahnmeister
01/16/2008, 04:38 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11611911#post11611911 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dzeadow
Hahn, I may have missed this, but did you ever try the psk2500 style venturi on the eheim? if so, did you get any better results?

I did try one made from PVC. The results were mixed... the pump tries to pull more air in than it can actually handle, so it pulses. The solution would be to use a meshwheel to handle the extra air, but then the skimmer cant take it anyways (my 'older' body style at least).

BosseDK
07/30/2008, 07:05 AM
So what pump are you using now?

hahnmeister
07/30/2008, 02:36 PM
eheim 1260 w/ a beckett injector...lol.

cpeisher
07/30/2008, 03:10 PM
anybody got a plan to diy one of these yet?

skimmy
07/30/2008, 03:22 PM
good luck with the cone....

hahnmeister
07/30/2008, 05:28 PM
I have heard of some attempts... one guy in FL for instance (dont know who), but that they cant match the end results for some reason. Dont know why myself. IMO, one of the most important things with this skimmer line is the pumps themselves... you need to have a high air/water ratio or else much of the cone design is useless.

Safedad
10/25/2008, 08:12 PM
Do you know what the size of the holes are in the bubble plate. I am making a bubble plate for my ASM G3. I noticed the bevel doesn't come all the way up to the hole. It looks like it is about half way. Is that about right?
Thanks

hahnmeister
10/25/2008, 09:13 PM
A little over 1/4" (I think 5/16" if I remember correctly) although there is no reason why 1/4" wouldnt work. Yes, the 'bevel' is about 1/2 the depth of the hole.

ProdigalPoster
12/24/2008, 08:37 PM
A local reefer recommend I come and check out these skimmers. So far I'm definitely impressed but I had one question. I looked at the atbskimmer.com site and they mention the max water level for the small is 6.5 inches. The area of my sump I use my skimmer in is definitely much more than that, probably (I'm not home right this moment) 10-12 inches.

I guess the best solution to this would be some sort of "stand" to put the skimmer on?

Anyone dealt with this situation before?

victor90
12/24/2008, 09:47 PM
Yes you will need to build a stand

kma408
09/15/2010, 09:17 AM
I dont see ATB PS small cone sale in USA. The only I see is ATB PS 840. It looks the same size the diferrent is the impeller pump.

JRaquatics
09/15/2010, 09:50 AM
The ATB small has been replaced with the ATB 840.

kma408
09/15/2010, 04:04 PM
The ATB small has been replaced with the ATB 840.

Thanks, My question is any better than the 840 or not but it drives more power and the capicator is same 249 gallons and it cost more too.

LoyalReef
12/21/2010, 07:04 AM
Hi hahnmeister,

I can't seem to send u a private message nor email, sorry to burst out with a question on ur thread.

I found a Max-Flo Waterfall & Filter Pump, 4200 GPH at $184.
I also found the 2900 version for more $187.
And also the 2400 version for $169.

I want to buy a pump but with some advice and from all my reading in Red Dragon's, ATBs, and even Lagunas by Haged, you seem to have a bit more interesting info and seems u have a real good understanding on all three of these manufacturers and the MODs they perform.

So, do u recommend me to buy either of the three pumps above?

Are they saltwater safe, durable, and a smart purchase?

I would really appreciate it if u can help me out with this, ATBs and RDs seem out of my budget and I want to buy a pump tomorrow if possible.

Thanks in advance.

LoyalReef

LoyalReef
12/21/2010, 04:37 PM
Just realized Hahn hasn't replied to this post since 2008. He might be out of the loop already.

Does anyone else have any info on my question above?

Thanks in advance.

LoyalReef

rkaires
12/21/2010, 05:57 PM
Just realized Hahn hasn't replied to this post since 2008. He might be out of the loop already.

Does anyone else have any info on my question above?

Thanks in advance.

LoyalReef

Are you looking for a skimmer pump or flow?

LoyalReef
12/21/2010, 05:59 PM
Are you looking for a skimmer pump or flow?

I'm looking for a return pump. So that should be a flow pump.
I really don't want to miss out on the Laguna sales before it is over.

LoyalReef

rkaires
12/21/2010, 06:02 PM
http://www.reefspecialty.com/virtuemart/13-pumps-circulationreturn/69-atb-pumps.html

LoyalReef
12/21/2010, 06:08 PM
The 4200 ATB Flow Star is $900 dollars vs $184 for the Laguna Max-Flow 4200.
And Wattage they both use is identical at that Flowrate.

AS for the other less flow ATB they are also more then twice as much in price.

So I'm hoping to get some feedback on the Laguna Max-Flo pumps and hoping the feedback is good.

Do u have any feedback on the ATBs, Hahn has said they are all saltwater safe in previous posts in other threads, though that was a few years back.

LoyalReef

moondoggy4
12/21/2010, 09:08 PM
Does the Laguna Max Flow 4200 have those annoying clip connections? I have a Laguna 900 Powerjet.

LoyalReef
12/21/2010, 10:21 PM
Not sure of anything really, I just know that ATB pumps use Laguna pumps and modify them. and Red Dragon gets custom mortor block from asskoll.

I don't have all the info well said, but it just seems like all the higher end pumps start with a Laguna Pump and Lagunas are WAY cheaper.

So I'm trying to buy eigther a Laguna Max-flo 2900 or 4200 tomorrow before the good deals run out.

If anyone has some sort of scientific/physics explanation on these laguna pumps and if they will be successfull at running my reef for years to come. Please all the info I can get would be very much appreciated.

Loyal reef

LoyalReef
12/23/2010, 03:05 PM
So no further feedback?

Seems like there are quite a few that might have an idea. I'm wanting to buy before the end of this week, one of those Laguna pumps if the pump is worth it.
And as per my previous posts they are pretty cheap right now.

LoyalReef

dwl
12/23/2010, 06:30 PM
AFAIK the Laguna pumps are the same as the ATB, SWC, and RD with the main differences being the stand (or whatever you want to call it) to hold the pump, maybe some impellar mods and/or volute cover and/or with PVC connection (union) epoxied onto the clip connection mentioned above.

If you can get a Laguna pump at a good price you will NOT be disappointed, they are very good. Just get one and either use the quick connect clip connector or epoxy some PVC right over the top of it and be done with it.

Good luck on whatever you decide to do.

LoyalReef
12/23/2010, 06:43 PM
AFAIK the Laguna pumps are the same as the ATB, SWC, and RD with the main differences being the stand (or whatever you want to call it) to hold the pump, maybe some impellar mods and/or volute cover and/or with PVC connection (union) epoxied onto the clip connection mentioned above.

If you can get a Laguna pump at a good price you will NOT be disappointed, they are very good. Just get one and either use the quick connect clip connector or epoxy some PVC right over the top of it and be done with it.

Good luck on whatever you decide to do.

That sounds exactly like I was thinking. So now I just have to decide on the 2900 or the 4200. I think i'll do 4200.

Thanks

LoyalReef

LoyalReef
12/23/2010, 10:26 PM
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=134515&stc=1&d=1293166047

1 of: Max-Flo Waterfall & Filter Pump, 4200 GPH [Misc.]
Condition: New
Sold by: pondscape (seller profile)
$184.63


Item(s) Subtotal: $184.63
Shipping & Handling: $9.99
-----
Total Before Tax: $194.62
Estimated Tax To Be Collected: $0.00
-----
Grand Total: $194.62

LoyalReef