Tank Bred vs. Captive Bred vs. Wild Caught

[mollymonticello]

Some of you are new to seahorses, and you may be wondering, "What's the difference?" These terms may seem a little confusing and misleading to you, and trust me, they are not misleading by accident.

A Captive Bred, or CB for short, seahorse has been bred in captivity using synthetic seawater in enclosed, sterile systems. These seahorses have proven extremely hardy, easy to breed, and long-lived. They are trained to eat frozen mysis shrimp before sale, which makes them easy to feed. An excellent alternative to Wild Caught.

A Wild Caught seahorse has been caught in the wild. CITES has limited the distribution of WC seahorses, so you probably won't see them around much. History has shown that these seahorses are difficult to keep in captivity. They often never eat frozen foods, and must be provided with live foods for life. They most often come with parasites and other diseases that are difficult or impossible to treat, even prophylactically.

Now, when we get to tank raised/maricultured/tank bred/net pen raised seahorses, things are a little different. You might be saying, "But isn't it a good thing to buy Tank Raised?"

I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT TANK RAISED, MARICULTURED, TANK BRED, AND NET-PEN RAISED SEAHORSES ARE THE NUMBER ONE THREAT TO THE SEAHORSE HOBBY.

Let me explain the history behind it.

Net pen raising is the brain child Amanda Vincent, self-proclaimed seahorse expert. It was invented to give poor people an alternative to catching them in the wild. Instead, they catch the juveniles, raise them in net pens in the ocean where the seahorses eat natural foods in their natural environments. Most of the net pen raised seahorses bred every year go on to be sold in the Traditional Chinese Medicine trade. Literally Tons, thousands and thousands of pounds. As an afterthought, many breeders started to sell their excess to US, the Aquarium trade.

Most often, it is done like this--When the breeder is done harvesting for the TCM trade, their excess is often put into bare bottom tanks flushed constantly with natural sea water. The seahorses are packed in like sardines. They finish "growing them out" here, thus allowing them to be called "tank raised." They are fed frozen foods, but not what I would call "trained." Basically, any seahorses that refuse to eat the frozen foods die, and are carted off to be sold to TCM. The ones that survive are then sold to us in the aquarium trade. These resulting seahorses are often loaded with parasitic and bacterial infections like Vibrio, even webbing. They are like little ticking time-bombs. Many of these infections are highly contagious to other syngnathids (including your pipefish) and incurable, even with prophylactic treatment. Even expert seahorse keepers who are capable of raising fry have had bad luck with these "tank raised" seahorses.

Now, some problems with this system--breeding a seahorse using natural seawater and mostly natural foods from the ocean is really cheap. The cost is next to zero. That makes net-pen raised seahorses very inexpensive. Legitimate captive breeding costs money. The salt, the food, it all adds up. Most seahorse breeders charge from $50-$100 per seahorse, and they never take home a paycheck. The most commonly "tank bred" or net pen raised seahorses are H. kelloggi and H. kuda. These species are not always native to the areas where they are being net pen raised. This means that some hybrids have been reported. Hybrids making it into the trade, and hybrids in the wild. Also, it's difficult to quantify exactly how much waste and pollution is produced by this method of breeding tons and tons of seahorses. But I can assure you, it is not minimal.

Back to the money issue. In the past year, most of the legitimate captive breeding facilities have closed down. Draco Marine just stopped production, they are shipping their last order this week. Poor Jorge could never bring home a paycheck. There are only a couple left, NYseahorse and Dan U. from seahorsesource in Florida. Neither have much in stock right now. There is still Ocean Rider in HI, but that's only if you want to pay $150 up to $999 for a single seahorse.

Right now, the most common species being tank raised are kuda and kelloggi. As far as I know, no one is breeding kelloggis in synthetic sea water. Maybe a couple kudas. Unfortunately, not much is known about kelloggi seahorses, except how to mass produce them. Being a deep-water seahorse, it is speculated that they may prefer temperatures even lower than where most people keep their seahorses at 74*. They have a horrible track record in captivity. Most only live for a few months. The ones that do last a year or two are the lucky ones, and that's a significantly short life span for that type of seahorse.

There are so many other species out there, why buy TR and limit your options? The most commonly Captive Bred seahorse is H. erectus. they are also the hardiest and most prolific, some say the most beautiful. As far as I know, they are not available TR. But there are so many other options, or at least, there used to be. At the very least, 10 or 15 different species are bred in captivity, but not available as net-pen raised or tank raised. Why? because the main purpose of net pen raising is not for us, the aquarists. It's for the TCM!

So next time you go into your LFS and you see a H. kelloggi or worse, Hippocampus sp. or "yellow seahorse," please pass on it. You'll be saving yourself some heartache. Educate your LFS and even your favorite online vendors. Tell them that you demand legitimate Captive Bred seahorses. Be cautious and do your homework. Some vendors and retailers are sneaky about it. Even ORA is importing TR seahorses (their kuda are net-pen raised)! Educate other beginning seahorse hobbyists. There is no other way to save this wonderful seahorse hobby.

I have made a promise to myself, and to the seahorse hobby, to never buy a tank bred seahorse. I will only buy from a legitimate captive breeding facility that uses synthetic seawater, bare bottom tanks, and frozen mysis. Join me, and make the promise. IF WE DON'T STOP BUYING TANK RAISED SEAHORSES, SOON WE WON'T HAVE A CHOICE!

Feel free to add your comments and opinions.

[mollymonticello]

Edit: Ooops, it is net pen raised reidi that ORA imports.

[Rays]

Outstanding report Molly! Great job!!

[Duddly01]

I agree, awesome explanation.

My horse's came from Jorge at Draco Marine. I am very disheartened that he has had to close up shop. The good breeder's are all being undercut but the asian pen bred market. It is a sad time for the hobby, and the future of seahorses in general. :(

[mollymonticello]

I could be wrong about some of this stuff, anyone care to add or correct anything? I want this to be as accurate as possible. I'd like some help on refining it and getting some good, solid references. I remember seeing some photos last year of one of those Asian Tank-rearing facilities. Anyone remember where those pictures went?!

Ann, you are a wealth of information, and better than I am at explaining things. I remember you found an interview with A. Vincent on PBS.com. Feel free to add your thoughts :)

[ann83]

Oh, I didn't find the interview, I'm too lazy for that ;) I just referred to the whole seahorse documentary she was in and someone else dug up the quote from the interview. What you had to say was pretty spot on though, except the part about Reidi being the ORA sh from Sri Lanka, not Kuda, but you caught that yourself and corrected it.
The only other thing I saw was that you said there were at least 10 speceis being CB that weren't being NPR (net pen raised)... I can only come up with these:
Abdominalis, Barbouri, Breviceps, Capensis, Erectus, Tubers, Whitei, and Zosterae...
I am fairly certain that Reidi, "Kuda", "Kelloggi", Ingens, and possibly Comes are being NPR. Reidi, Ingens, and Comes can also be found CB from aquaculturists and hobbyists, and it looks like Kuda will be available CB shortly again as well.

Also, a clarification on the whole A.Vincent/Project Seahorse involvement in net pen raising:
There are island communities that are dependent upon the income that they receive from catching and selling seahorses to TCM. We cannot yank that income away, they would starve or do it anyway... so PS decided to "fix" it so that they collect the seahorses and "sell" them to PS instead of TCM. PS gives them a loan in the amount that they would have earned selling them to TCM. Then the islanders put the seahorses in pens in the ocean and "care" for them until they have grown larger (and theoretically reproduced, sending fry out into the ocean). These larger seahorses are then harvested and sold to TCM and/or the ornamental fish trade for higher prices since the seahorses are bigger, and the islanders use the procedes of the sale to pay off the loan from PS and pocket the rest. Several problems with this include:
1. other people steal seahorses from these pens in the ocean - its easy, they are all grouped tightly together and are already caught.
2. when non-native species like Reidi and Ingens are kept in these pens (which was not the "plan", but which does happen), you are introducing non-native species to the environment, both in terms of the fry that are released into the open ocean, and in terms of the bacteria that the seahorses bring with them that can cause big problems in the native syngnathid populations. Anyone hear about how "evil" caulerpa is in California, or how terrible the mariculture salmon can be on the natural environment... seahorses are just cuter than caulerpa and salmon ;)
3. these seahorses are not being captive bred, or even tank raised. the more proper term would be "captive raised" and even that is a stretch; they are "trained to frozen" in various ways including what Molly said above, but by and large they are WC, and worse off for having been raised in close quarters with lots of other syngnathids and in many cases outside of their natural environment. In the case of Kelloggi, not only are they outside their natural range, but also their natural depth (i.e., wrong temperature, wrong water pressure, wrong lighting, etc.). Stressed fish are not healthy fish.

Anything else you were thinking of?

[mollymonticello]

Wow, thanks, Ann!

I'm not trying to shut down any net-pen raising operations. I just don't want those SH in our hobby. They don't belong here. They are raised for consumption.

[mollymonticello]

Some of you are new to seahorses, and you may be wondering, "What's the difference?" These terms may seem a little confusing and misleading to you, and trust me, they are not misleading by accident.

A Captive Bred, or CB for short, seahorse has been bred in captivity using thoroughly filtered, sterilized or synthetic seawater in enclosed, sterile systems. They are kept apart from other syngnathids to prevent spread of disease. These seahorses have proven extremely hardy, easy to breed, and long-lived. They are trained to eat frozen mysis shrimp before sale, which makes them easy to feed. An excellent alternative to Wild Caught.

A Wild Caught seahorse has been caught in the wild. CITES has limited the distribution of WC seahorses, so you probably won't see them around much. History has shown that these seahorses are difficult to keep in captivity. They may never eat frozen foods, and must be provided with live foods for life. They most often come with parasites and other diseases that are difficult or impossible to treat, even prophylactically.

Now, when we get to tank raised/maricultured/tank bred/net pen raised seahorses, things are a little different. You might be saying, "But isn't it a good thing to buy Tank Raised?"

I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT TANK RAISED, MARICULTURED, TANK BRED, AND NET-PEN RAISED SEAHORSES ARE THE NUMBER ONE THREAT TO THE SEAHORSE HOBBY.

Let me explain the history behind net-pen raising seahorses.

Net pen raising seahorses is the brain child of seahorse biologist Amanda Vincent. Please see "Kingdom of the seahorse" by NOVA starring Amanda Vincent. It was invented to give poor people an alternative to catching them in the wild. Dr. Vincent said that she understands that we can't save individual seahorses, but with this method, we can save the species. She also states that the aquarium trade is a threat to wild populations of seahorses. When she posed as a breeder and asked Chinese market owners how many seahorses they would buy from her if she could supply, they answered, "Tons...unlimited supply."

On a side note, when asked why they consume seahorses for TCM, they said that they are an aphrodisiac because seahorses mate for life. Someone should tell them what promiscuous little creatures seahorses really are. They don't mate for life.

Net-pen raising was intended to help poor villagers and save native seahorses. They caught pregnant males and adults native to the area, keeping them in pens where the seahorses ate natural foods. Today, however, net-pen raising has become big business overseas. The most commonly net-pen raised seahorse is H. kellogi, which is not native to all of the countries where it is being cultured. Most of the net pen raised seahorses bred every year go on to be sold in the Traditional Chinese Medicine trade where they are worth more than their weight in silver. Literally Tons, thousands and thousands of pounds. As an afterthought, many breeders started to sell their excess to US, the Aquarium trade.

Most often, it is done like this--When the breeder is done harvesting for the TCM trade, their excess is often put into bare bottom tanks flushed constantly with natural sea water with minimal or no filtration. The seahorses are packed in like sardines. They finish "growing them out" here, thus allowing them to be called "tank raised." They are fed frozen foods, but not what I would call "trained." Basically, any seahorses that refuse to eat the frozen foods die, and are carted off to be sold to TCM. The ones that survive are then sold to us in the aquarium trade. The methods vary, but the result is the same.

These resulting seahorses are often loaded with parasitic and bacterial infections like Vibrio, even webbing. Many of these infections are highly contagious to other syngnathids (including your pipefish) and incurable, even with prophylactic treatment. Even expert seahorse keepers who are capable of raising fry have had bad luck with these "tank raised" seahorses.

Now, some other problems with this system--breeding a seahorse using unfiltered natural seawater and mostly natural foods from the ocean is really cheap. The cost is next to zero. That makes net-pen raised seahorses very inexpensive. Legitimate, careful captive breeding for the hobby costs money. Most seahorse breeders charge from $50-$100 per seahorse, and they never take home a paycheck.

The most commonly "tank bred" or net pen raised seahorses are H. kelloggi and H. kuda. These species are not always native to the areas where they are being net pen raised. This means that some hybrids have been reported. Hybrids making it into the trade, and hybrids in the wild. Also, it's difficult to quantify exactly how much waste and pollution is produced by this method of breeding tons and tons of seahorses. But I can assure you, it is not minimal.

Many Tank-raised or net-pen raised seahorses that make it into the trade are sold by local fish stores and online retailers that often don't have a dedicated syngnathid system. Many consider brine shrimp an acceptable food source (See Scott Michael's "Reef Fishes"). They most often keep them at tropical temperatures above 74*F, which are proven to increase Vibrio infections (see "Working notes: a guide to seahorse diseases" by Belli M.D., Driscoll, Lamont). Also, they are kept in systems that contain many different species of seahorses and other syngnathids, also increasing chances of disease. Many people believe that this is the main reason that TR seahorses are not as hardy as their CB counterparts.

Back to the money issue. In the past year, most of the legitimate captive breeding facilities have closed down. Draco Marine just stopped production. There are only a couple left, NYseahorse and Dan U. from seahorsesource in Florida. Neither have much in stock right now. There is still Ocean Rider in HI, but that's only if you want to pay $150 up to $999 for a single seahorse.

As far as I know, no one is Captive breeding kelloggis in sterilized natural sea water. Unfortunately, not much is known about kelloggi seahorses, except how to mass produce them. Being a deep-water seahorse, it is speculated that they may prefer temperatures even lower than where most people keep their seahorses at 74*. They have a horrible track record in captivity. Most only live for a few months. The ones that do last a year or two are the lucky ones, and that's a significantly short life span for that type of seahorse.

There are so many other species out there, why buy TR and limit your options? The most commonly Captive Bred seahorse is H. erectus. they are also the hardiest and most prolific, some say the most beautiful. As far as I know, they are not available TR. But there are so many other options, or at least, there used to be. At the very least, 10 or 15 different species are bred in captivity Worldwide, but not available as net-pen raised or tank raised. Why? because the main purpose of net pen raising is not for us, the aquarists. It's for the TCM!

So next time you go into your LFS and you see a H. kelloggi or worse, Hippocampus sp. or "yellow seahorse," please pass on it. You'll be saving yourself some heartache. Educate your LFS and even your favorite online vendors. Tell them that you demand legitimate Captive Bred seahorses. Help your LFS create an environment that is safe for SH. Educate other beginning seahorse hobbyists. Be cautious and do your homework.

Be careful, some otherwise reputable and respectable vendors and retailers are being sneaky. Even ORA is importing reidi (native to the New World) seahorses from Asia that they claim are "Pond Raised." Communications with ORA has left it unclear exactly what "pond-raising" is. Bottom line is, I want to know where my seahorses came from. How they were raised and kept is too important.

I have made a promise to myself, and to the seahorse hobby, to never buy a tank bred seahorse. I will only buy from a legitimate captive breeding facility that uses either synthetic or filtered, sterilized seawater, bare bottom tanks, and frozen mysis. Join me, and make the promise. There is no other way to save this wonderful seahorse hobby. IF WE DON'T STOP BUYING TANK RAISED SEAHORSES, SOON WE WON'T HAVE A CHOICE!

Feel free to add your comments and opinions.

[ann83]

In the interest of making this thread as accurate as possible...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11192465#post11192465 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mollymonticello
[B]
A Captive Bred, or CB for short, seahorse has been bred in captivity using thoroughly filtered, sterilized or synthetic seawater in enclosed, sterile systems. They are kept apart from other syngnathids to prevent spread of disease.

Not true. Many breeders mix their seahorse stock, and Mic Payne in Australia mixes his CB pipes with his CB seahorses too. Thats why the issue is with mixing sources, not mixing species, when it comes to CB. Its a good idea for breeders to mix their own stock, it exposes them to small amounts of various bacteria, making their stock more hardy in the home aquarium, and making it possible for customers to mix species as long as they buy from the same source. It is important to remember, though, that not ALL breeders do this.

CITES has limited the distribution of WC seahorses, so you probably won't see them around much.

Specifically, countries who choose to participate in CITES, follow the minimum guideline that they do not export seahorses smaller than a set size and that the seahorse export does not negatively impact wild populations. It is important to remember that some countries choose not to opt into CITES, and some countries choose to have more strict guidelines than CITES. It is also important to remember that CITES only deals with export, and does not deal with WC seahorses that are native to your own country (for example: zosterae and erectus in the U.S.). You do see plenty of WC erectus and WC zosterae in the U.S., in fact the large majority of zosterae purchased in the U.S. are WC.

On a side note, when asked why they consume seahorses for TCM, they said that they are an aphrodisiac...

I don't doubt that this was said, but it is incorrect, or at the very least, incomplete.

Back to the money issue. In the past year, most of the legitimate captive breeding facilities have closed down.

Who, besides Draco, closed down?

There are so many other species out there, why buy TR and limit your options? The most commonly Captive Bred seahorse is H. erectus.

...in the United States.

You did say "feel free to add your comments" :D

[peacetypes6]

As soon as I wanted ponies i contacted Draco because its just downtown and Jorge responded with they closed down a few weeks ago, I was bummed

[mollymonticello]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11192723#post11192723 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ann83
In the interest of making this thread as accurate as possible...


Not true. Many breeders mix their seahorse stock, and Mic Payne in Australia mixes his CB pipes with his CB seahorses too. Thats why the issue is with mixing sources, not mixing species, when it comes to CB. Its a good idea for breeders to mix their own stock, it exposes them to small amounts of various bacteria, making their stock more hardy in the home aquarium, and making it possible for customers to mix species as long as they buy from the same source. It is important to remember, though, that not ALL breeders do this.

Specifically, countries who choose to participate in CITES, follow the minimum guideline that they do not export seahorses smaller than a set size and that the seahorse export does not negatively impact wild populations. It is important to remember that some countries choose not to opt into CITES, and some countries choose to have more strict guidelines than CITES. It is also important to remember that CITES only deals with export, and does not deal with WC seahorses that are native to your own country (for example: zosterae and erectus in the U.S.). You do see plenty of WC erectus and WC zosterae in the U.S., in fact the large majority of zosterae purchased in the U.S. are WC.

I don't doubt that this was said, but it is incorrect, or at the very least, incomplete.

Who, besides Draco, closed down?

...in the United States.

You did say "feel free to add your comments" :D

I don't know how to do the quote thing on this forum. I appreciate your help, Ann. Frankly, I'm a little sad that I'm not getting any input from the people I thought I would be getting input from...Actually, a lot of what I HAVE been getting is downright opposition or being accused of ulterior motives, like being affiliated with certain CB suppliers. Ok, I'm done whining now.

I almost wanted to give up on this and leave it to gossip to get the word around. I am not a good writer anyway, so I wish someone would just rewrite/edit the article for me!

You're right about captive breeding facilities mixing species. I wasn't sure how to put that in the article, because I want to separate the fact that LFS and holding facilities do it, and that CB facilities do it. And I don't want to keep doubling this article's size...

I also thought about mentioning WC dwarf SH, but didn't think it was relevant. And I've never seen a WC erectus for sale, but I'm sure they are out there. Maybe I'm just not looking. Thanks for that info, I should include it, but like I said, I'm trying to keep the article relatively short--maybe I should just throw that idea out the window.

There were a few CB facilities that are no longer in production, or more accurately, many that are hurting for business. Marine Depot told me that all their SH are WC and that they considered buying from dracomarine, but that it was more expensive.

Umm, that seahorseusa shut down a couple years ago, but honestly, I doubt it was a direct result of competition from TR SH. Seanic aquariums has also been gone for a long time.

[ann83]

If you want input from certain people, PM them. I'm not sure who you are looking for input from, but if its the breeders, IMO they try to be polite businessmen and women on forums and they aren't likely to jump in with their .02 on issues like this in the forums. It would be unprofessional. If there are things you want clarified, or questions you want answered though, just ask (me, them, everyone). I only say this because I am having trouble figuring out what input you want either, and I'm active in your threads, so the people who's input you want, may not even know they have the answers you are looking for.

[peacetypes6]

there is a difference between tank raised and captive raised

[hydroid]

I'm not a breeder nor affiliated with any breeder in any way ..,

Pen-raised horses, which are far cheaper to raise, drive the prices down on professionally raised CB horses. This would be fine if the two products were equal ... but they're not even close to equal. Its like selling junk jewlery along side real diamonds and to this point many seahorse buyers don't seem to know the difference.

I agree, this is a threat to the hobby. How can professional breeders stay in business selling their diamonds at prices heavly influenced by the junk jewlery market? Draco is a prime example. and the few others could follow. imo.

[ann83]

Just to clarify, MollyM knows that I am not challenging the premise of her article, but it seems like everyone else reading this thread thinks that I am. (At least the PMs mean that people are reading your thread Molly).

I am NOT against captive bred seahorses, I am NOT for the collection of WC seahorses for the general hobbyist market, I am NOT under the impression that tank raised do not pose a thread to captive breeders.

However, I feel like if one side is going to be passing around misinformation, the biggest disservice we can do to our own side is to also pass around misinformation, because if a few points are wrong, people have a tendency to dismiss all points as being wrong. With that in mind, I am challenging the incorrect bits, the bits that generalize or only focus on the U.S., and the bits that are mostly opinion rather than fact; with the idea that they are weakening the effectiveness of the article.

[CCall]

My LFS uses the term Tank Raised for Aquacultered sea horses that they get from their supplier. Would these be okay to buy? Most of them are H. Erectus.
He also uses the term NET for Pen-Raised seahorses.
What would be your opinion on this? I am going to be in the market to buy seahorses and want to do the best I can to help myself and the hobby.

[ann83]

CCall, I would make sure you know who the supplier is. If it is an aquaculture facility like ORA, then you are solid, although I would pick them up in the bag and not have them aclimated to your LFS tanks. But, if they are from "a wholesaler" or "a supplier", I wouldn't risk it. Your LFS doesn't know where the seahorses from the wholesalers come from, and they can only go by the labels that the wholesaler uses; which is how all of these net pen raised seahorses get the label "TR" in the first place.

[TamiW]

Bill Stockley stopped breeding and selling CB seahorses as well. I am not sure why, but there were rumors it was from pressure by OR, not net pen rearing.

As for mixing species, I think some of the problem is not exposing some CB seahorses to various common pathogens. I know there was work some time ago using vibrio vaccines on seahorses, and they showed a much higher resistance to disease. But obtaining them for small operations and individuals was very difficult.

Then there is a problem with correlation not equaling causation. Some seahorses get sick in a mixed species aquarium, and the assumption becomes it was related to mixing species. This may or may not be true, but it doesn't explain the mix species aquarium that work. Its probably wise to keep species separate though until a more clear answer is found.

Those points aside, this is a great summary. I absolutely agree Net Pen Raised seahorses are not good for the aquarium. It might help with conservation, but it doesn't do anything to eliminate the problems we had with wild caught seahorse survivability. If wild caught seahorses are dying because they are being poorly handled and shipped half way around the world, then these seahorses aren't going to fair much better.

[mollymonticello]

I want everyone to keep in mind, this article is still a rough draft. I'm certainly not qualified to write it. I just wanted to get the ball rolling, sort of manifest what's been on everyone's minds in the SH community right now. I still need some help with the actual copy and with obtaining references and photos. And I DO appreciate corrections because, like I mentioned, I don't have many references...and if we want to get this important issue out into the open, we better know what we're talking about!

Ann, I always appreciate your input! I like that you are always to-the-point, and not condescending like some people can be. Ann and I are on the same side here, in fact, all SH hobbyists are on the same side when it comes to this issue, whether they know it or not.

CCall, does your LFS keep the CB and the Net raised SH in the same system? If so, the CB are potentially exposed to the same pathogens as the net pen raised. That could cause a problem.

I think it's very helpful when breeders breed SH and pipes and different kinds of SH together. I don't know how they do this, but I presume they are using quarantining, bare bottom tanks, adequate water params, possibly UV, slow, professional methods that work without crashing all their stock...

But when the LFS or LA wholesalers are "mixing" there is a different outcome. They are mixing animals that were just shipped, possibly halfway across the world. These animals have lowered immune systems already. Then they are often kept in less than optimal water parameters and conditions, at temperatures that are too high. We've all seen the LFS SH tanks with aggressive fish or stinging corals in them, also. These systems often also house live rock and sand (places for pathogens/ciliates to collect. As David W. says "clean your pipes") and other creatures. That's when we run into a problem with mixing.

Hydroid, I like your metaphor.

Fishgrrl, BINGO. I'll post it over there when I feel comfortable with its accuracy. It may take some time. I'd appreciate any help (any of) you can give with references, photos, corrections, additions...

[loganbug3]

I can't believe this thread is still open but I will post anyway. I am by no means an expert, however I am an avid seahorse enthusiast and agree with everything that has been said here especially Ann's corrections.

[gtstylez87]

the under lying cause is TCM. Its been proven there is no medical benefit of eating seahorses. if they stopped using them the population would be able to reach a stable number. i got mine for a friend that captive bred them. she got hers for seahorsesource. now there the messed up part she can't sell them to a LFS because she doesnt have a aquaculture license. so she is stuck with a bunch of them. lucky she release then back into the wild. now before i get anger replies about non-native introduction and diseases, they are erectus and they are native to florida and she introduces them right after they are born. the hobby if anything helps seahorses by spreading awareness about their decline, but more needs so be done about TCM. i work at a pet shop that sells saltwater fish and corals, and when i tell people that its hard to get them in because of TCM they are shocked. also other pet shop dont have knowledgeable employees that can help someone if they are interested in keeping them. most of the customers thinks they are just another fish, and you can put them in with anything. oh yea lol my favorite reply when i tell them that they cant put them in with anything is "well they are in the ocean with the fish" lmfao i tell them well if you got an ocean size tank there should but no problem :). just like any other pet everyone should do research about them before they buy one.

also you guys should watch this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmkXD-KDsCg

[loganbug3]

That video was a real eye opener. We definitely need to conserve the seahorses. I've decided to try and breed them so I can relese them. Anyone have some suggestions?

[rayjay]

Please DO NOT release any seahorse that has been kept in an aquarium, or, fry from birthing of tank kept seahorses.
You will almost certainly be introducing pathogens acquired in the tanks, to the ocean waters.
It isn't just a case of reintroducing native species which if done, needs to occur under very controlled methods by people trained for doing such a thing.

[TamiW]

I just popped in to say the same thing as rayjay. Don't release seahorses or any other fish that has been in an aquarium. Aside from what Rayjay said, its probably illegal. And unless you captured the seahorse yourself from a known location, you have no way of guaranteeing that it is actually the right species from those waters. Programs that try to repopulate wild animals take animals from the same location as broodstock, and if they can't, they search extensively for genetically and geographically similar stock.

Also, releasing into the wild probably isn't going to help much, especially stateside. As big or a bigger threat is habitat loss.

If you really want to help, get involved in or donate to programs that are working to protect seahorses or restore habitat. A few are:
http://counties.cce.cornell.edu/suffolk/habitat_restoration/seagrassli/ecology/fauna_flora/seahorses.html
http://www.sosmalaysia.org/home.html
http://www.projectseahorse.com/
http://www.sacf.org.au/projects/36-current-projects-sydney-aquarium-conservation-fund/34-seahorses-sydney-harbour

[ackee]

I guess I'm fortunate in having an unlimited supply of H. erectus available during the summer and fall. They are found in almost all of NJ's bays and inlets, and in some places are extremely numerous. The most serious threat to their numbers seems to be the rapidly diminishing eel grass beds, which are their primary habitat up here. Last August, I counted 43 in an hour, snorkeling along the margins of a small islet in Barnegat Bay, in about 3 feet of water. I always see them while scuba diving in the inlets. Very powerful currents there are created as the tide moves in and out, but the seahorses cling to anything: musslebeds, old half-buried wooden objects, clam shells, etc. They never stop searching for food, even when the current actually flattens them against the bottom; they still manage to move using their tail, almost crawling, sucking down their prey.

The local H. erectus will eat frozen mysis and similar frozen food within a day. I've seen a few learn to eat strips of fish and shrimp, blasting them into pieces if necessary. They are voracious eaters, and not difficult to feed. They will take frozen food almost immediately. I've kept small colonies alive for more than 3 years, and had them complete egg transfers and produce young many times in a 90 gal aquarium. They will do fine at temps in the mid to high 70s, and are extremely tough. Some contract diseases, but very, very few.

I've stopped collecting and keeping them for several reasons, but I have no doubt that locally caught erectus that have not been subjected to the trauma of wholesale dealers, shipping, pet stores, etc., are hardy, easy to feed aquarium specimens, if given their own lightly stocked aquarium, lots of food, and a clean well designed habitat with very high water quality. The ones I've collected went from the bay to an aerated container, to the aquarium, in the space of a few hours. This undoubtedly contributed to their hardiness.

On another topic, one of the most beautiful things I've seen in shallow seas happened last May in Dominica. A pair of H. reidi (an Atlantic/Caribbean species) were courting, with tails tightly entwined, rising from a rocky bottom in 15 feet of water almost to the surface, then sinking back to the bottom, sometimes still entwined, sometimes swimming close to each other. They did this 5 times that I saw, and seemed to be attempting to position themselves belly to belly to effect an egg transfer, something I've seen many times in my aquaria. I did not stay to watch the reidi because I was disturbing them, so I left. They were not colorful, but were certainly the biggest and most beautiful reidi I've ever seen.

I wish all seahorses well. They are an extremely vulnerable fish, and are being crushed under the steamroller demands of teeming humanity.

[gtstylez87]

yea you shouldn't release them into the wild unless they are for sure native to the area. yea you could introduce pathogen into the wild population. this should only be done by VERY WELL SEASONED AQUARIST!!! now just because you have kept them alive and health for a many years and are able to breed them does not make you qualified. any little slip up could wipe hundreds of them out in the wild. when ever a large number of seahorses are breed there and they are kept in close quarters there is always a chance from disease. i have been an aquarist for 13 year and of those 13 i have been currently working in a fish store for the pass 6 year. my job is to treat the new and existing fish with a cocktail of different medicines. i have keep both wild and captive bred. you have to treat WC for numerous parasite and other disease. if it has been put in a tank and you dont need a permit to keep it i have dealt with it. i know how to deworm, deparasite, and treat bacteria, funguses, and viruses in almost ALL species of fish including many different types of seahorses. I would still not attempt to reintroduce them back into the wild with out help from someone who have a lot more experience then even me or a lot more research done on my part. even then i would still seek help from an out side source like a marine biologist or a major aquarium.

[TamiW]

yea you shouldn't release them into the wild unless they are for sure native to the area. yea you could introduce pathogen into the wild population. this should only be done by VERY WELL SEASONED AQUARIST!!!


No! They should not be released into the wild by any aquarist, ever, no matter how seasoned or how knowledgeable they may seem. I was horrified to read that you know someone that is doing it. That is a *VERY* *BAD* *THING*. I don't care how many years of experience someone has, and in fact I'd argue if you think it could possibly be a good idea, then you need more experience.

Regardless of the ethical implication; it is illegal to do so in FL. Your friend needs to stop and you really need to stop suggesting it might be okay by any aquarist.

Per Florida Fish and Wildlife:
"This policy does prohibit the release of all broodstock, broodstock progeny (offspring), or wild-born marine organisms collected, maintained, bred, or reared in captivity for commerce aquaculture production purposes."
http://myfwc.com/docs/LicensesPermits/SAL_ReleasePolicy.pdf

[DanU]

Whenever man decides to help nature, while the intent is honorable and good, the results are more often than not, not good and often disastrous.

There is some scientific body of evidence to suggest that even the government sponsored fish stocking programs often do more harm than good in that:
1. Propensity of hatchery to out compete native fish
2. The transmission of disease
3. Dilution of gene pools

Contrary to popular belief that captive bred specimens are raised in sterile environments compared to wild specimens, the reality is that they are often exposed to higher concentrations of certain pathogens.

The gene pool issue can be particularly troublesome for seahorses. According to evidence gathered so far, they do not travel great distances. They have a tendency to occupy a relative small geographic area through most of their life. Adding a bunch of captive specimens, assuming they survive, would significantly alter and dilute the gene pool in that area.

I don't know the specific laws regarding release of native species but I do know that Fish & Wildlife are not an easy going happy bunch. They take their job quite seriously and don't hesitate to press charges. I have had the opportunity to sit in a courtroom and watch a few these cases. "I didn't know" and "I didn't mean harm" did not serve them well as a defense.

To give an idea of the seriousness of the issue, just before the hurricanes hit a few years ago, some hatcheries on the water fronts moved their brood stock to a protected area and chlorinated their systems to kill all the growout to prevent accidental release from storm damage. This may seem extreme but it is cheaper that paying the fines if there was a release.

Dan

[gtstylez87]

ok you that the wrong way and i should have been a little more specific knowing how some people are. aquarist is a general term for someone who keeps and breeds fish. just like how athlete can be use for some who plays and competes in sports. just because i call someone an athlete doesn't mean that they play for a major league. for instance, someone who works at a major aquarium like "miami seaquarium" or "monterey bay aquarium" those people are called aquarist. i'm saying that *ONLY* people under the watch of a marine biologist or a major aquarium should try to do this. now to that guy that want to loganbug3 DONT DO IT! if you want to help contact your local aquarium or a marine biologist. some of them specialize in Syngnathidae. there are breed programs that are trying to release captive bred thats all im trying to say. im going to post 2 links so you can read more about it. now about my friend that did that, she had no room for another batch and they would have died if she didnt release. they would have got sucked up into the filter. they where release an hour after birth. yea she shouldn't have done it but she did. she tried to get rid of one of the old batch but no one would take them. it was between letting them die or releasing them. i talked to one of the marine biologist i know and he said the chances of introducing disease are slim to none but AGAIN YOU SHOULDN'T RELEASE THEM. you could kind of look at it like a seahorse abortion. she doesn't breed much anymore because of this, and this way a one time thing. i should have said that in the first post MY BAD on my behalf. also I WOULD NEVER SUGGEST THAT ANY AQUARIST DO THIS. i was just trying to use my own amount of experience as an example of why someone no matter how qualified they think they are SHOULD NOT DO IT.

the links... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3314364/Captive-born-seahorses-released-into-wild.html

http://www.fusedjaw.com/about/seahorses/

[loganbug3]

Sorry, didn't realize that. Cancel the release part. Thanks for stopping me!

[loganbug3]

Sorry, did not realize that. Cancel the release part. Thanks for stopping me!