Opinions: D.a.s. Any Good?

[DiazE]

I know I may be starting a war of words here between Deltec and D.A.S. clubs, but how good are these skimmers (D.A.S.) in comparison to a Deltec?

I've read good things about them; by the way I own my first Deltec since March 2007 and I am very satisfied with it's performance!:mixed:

[DeltecRules]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11147988#post11147988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DiazE
I know I may be starting a war of words here between Deltec and D.A.S. clubs, but how good are these skimmers (D.A.S.) in comparison to a Deltec?

I've read good things about them; by the way I own my first Deltec since March 2007 and I am very satisfied with it's performance!:mixed:

DAS is old deltec technology which was liscensed to them years back. Deltec improved on the design, performance and modified the pumps for better performance. Deltec is also better built, great customer service, has a warranty, better performance and won't arrived to you broken and leaking like some of the DAS skimmers people experienced.

Here is a thread which staurt who is one of the big boses of deltec comments on how the pumps are modified for better performance. There are also others threds you can look up on this forum about the difference with DAS and Deltec.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=332134&perpage=25&pagenumber=14

[jman77]

I have both ,

DAS build and quality is on par with my Deltec. DAS AquaBee pumps pull the same LPH that a Deltec AquaBee does, and Deltec doesn't make the the AquaBee pumps so I don't know how they could modify the pumps other than boring or changing the impellers(which they don't) once they get the pumps from the manufacturer.

Would I pay an extra 600+ bucks more for the comparable Deltec model, well, you tell me ... how's this DAS EX-2 look ?
*** Chamber is full of RO water mixed with some salt, no even full SG!
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x239/methodkey/10.jpg

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x239/methodkey/21.jpg

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11147988#post11147988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DiazE
I know I may be starting a war of words here between Deltec and D.A.S. clubs, but how good are these skimmers (D.A.S.) in comparison to a Deltec?

I've read good things about them; by the way I own my first Deltec since March 2007 and I am very satisfied with it's performance!:mixed: You might want to check out this thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1240760&highlight=DAS

This is the best post in that thread, IMO..

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11091368#post11091368 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
This is a loaded question because depending on what you value most, the response will vary...

1. Price/Value: The DAS is cheaper... alot cheaper. Is what the deltec offers worth hundreds more? Thats for the user to decide.

2. Design & Pefrormance: Same design. Same pump. Functionally the same skimmer. Sure, deltec has claimed to developed the pump since they liscenced out that design to DAS, but it sure doesnt seem to do much... both skimmers pull 500lph of air. If there is an advantage to the deltec, it might be that it makes the same air with less water turbulence. A comparison via kill-a-watt meters would confirm this.

3. Build Quality & Craftsmanship: The Deltec may be slightly better with their craftsmanship... but the materials are the same. Both use extruded acrylic, ABS, welds, etc. Neither is built as well as say... a H&S, ATB, or a Bubbleking though.

4. Reliability: Same Aquabee 2000/1 pump at the core. Love it or hate it. Its not like the rest of the skimmer can break-down or anything.

5. Warranty, Customer Service, etc: I hear nightmares about DAS... sure. Then again, even though Deltec is a sponsor here, I hear nightmares about Deltec as well (wont provide a replacement pump under warranty, backordered, etc). So honestly, I dont think its a huge difference. FWIW, DAS is actually located in the US, so in theory, they should be easier to get parts from. I hear that some of the earlier nightmares are being dealt with and DAS is doing a better job. I think its a wash in the end because what is the likelyhood of you actually needing to use this, as well as the likelyhood that your experience will be that bad?

IMO, if you dont see the value in the DAS, then for those exact same reasons you shouldnt be looking at a Deltec either. Try looking at an H&S, Tunze, BK, ATB, fauna marin, orca, heck, even ATI. If you do see the value in the DAS... then its a great skimmer to end up with.

[DeltecRules]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11151498#post11151498 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jman77
I have both ,

DAS build and quality is on par with my Deltec. DAS AquaBee pumps pull the same LPH that a Deltec AquaBee does, and Deltec doesn't make the the AquaBee pumps so I don't know how they could modify the pumps other than boring or changing the impellers(which they don't) once they get the pumps from the manufacturer.

Would I pay an extra 600+ bucks more for the comparable Deltec model, well, you tell me ... how's this DAS EX-2 look ?
*** Chamber is full of RO water mixed with some salt, no even full SG!
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x239/methodkey/10.jpg

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x239/methodkey/21.jpg

LOL DAS is not on build quality like deltec. I guess you haven't seen peoples DAS skimmers on manhattanreefs.com? Makes me glad I went with Deltec after reading this. I read enough leaking skimmers from reefcentral and manhattanreefs so please don't say they are on the same par as Deltec. LOL crooked necks and bad glueing jobs? Now I see why they are cheap in price.
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/general-discussion/8625-skimmer-thread-79.html

Deltec get the pumps from eheim and aquabee and modifies the motors and magnets on the impellar to match our 60 hertz. Here is the thread staurt explains it on. Its an old thread too.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=14

Would I pay another $615 for an AP600? Heck yeah I would. Its built better, performance is the best I ever had. Customer service is impeccable from my experience. As you can see in the forum alot of happy deltec users!!

[DeltecRules]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11151537#post11151537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by USC-fan
You might want to check out this thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1240760&highlight=DAS

This is the best post in that thread, IMO..

And thats from someone who has never owned a deltec before. I have owned two.

[jman77]

"And thats from someone who has never owned a deltec before. I have owned two"

Well if you want to follow that philosophy , you have no say in this thread as you have never owned a DAS, and currently don't even own a Deltec since you sold that and went to H&S. At least he owns a DAS , which the thread started inquired about .

"Deltec get the pumps from eheim and aquabee and modifies the motors and magnets on the impellar to match our 60 hertz. Here is the thread staurt explains it on. Its an old thread too."

Have you ever thought how could it be physically possible to do what is started above ? Unless I'm missing something , the pumps come completely assembled from the manufacture, meaning the core already sealed in epoxy/encased .
Dude, the pumps pull the EXACT LPH of air as the Deltec Bee's. So they can say the pumps are sprinkled with magic pixie dust for all i care.

Good for you if you would pay the extra money for a Deltec, I did once and even though its a good skimmer, won't again

[DeltecRules]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11153205#post11153205 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jman77
"And thats from someone who has never owned a deltec before. I have owned two"

Well if you want to follow that philosophy , you have no say in this thread as you have never owned a DAS, and currently don't even own a Deltec since you sold that and went to H&S. At least he owns a DAS , which the thread started inquired about .

"Deltec get the pumps from eheim and aquabee and modifies the motors and magnets on the impellar to match our 60 hertz. Here is the thread staurt explains it on. Its an old thread too."

Have you ever thought how could it be physically possible to do what is started above ? Unless I'm missing something , the pumps come completely assembled from the manufacture, meaning the core already sealed in epoxy/encased .
Dude, the pumps pull the EXACT LPH of air as the Deltec Bee's. So they can say the pumps are sprinkled with magic pixie dust for all i care.

Good for you if you would pay the extra money for a Deltec, I did once and even though its a good skimmer, won't again


"Well if you want to follow that philosophy , you have no say in this thread as you have never owned a DAS, and currently don't even own a Deltec since you sold that and went to H&S. At least he owns a DAS , which the thread started inquired about ."

I had enough hands on experience with DAS playing around with my friends to say there is a difference and I sure can say what ever I want owning two deltec skimmers. I knew about DAS a long time ago before they were even known on reefcentral. My friend is going on two years using it. So lets say I get to see it quite often. Did I mention he had to replace the pump twice already? He also had to go through two impellar shafts because they kept breaking. It still produces but when we hooked up my AP600 on his tank when he was waiting for his replacement pump it pulled twice the skimate. I guess thats the pixy dust Deltec uses huh? And by the way I bought a used APF600 for my frag tank so I guess I am still part of the deltec club huh?
:D

"Have you ever thought how could it be physically possible to do what is started above ? Unless I'm missing something , the pumps come completely assembled from the manufacture, meaning the core already sealed in epoxy/encased .
Dude, the pumps pull the EXACT LPH of air as the Deltec Bee's. So they can say the pumps are sprinkled with magic pixie dust for all i care."

If you would read that thread I posted the aquabee pump motors or "engines" are modified. I copied this from the thread I posted. How is it impossible that Deltec doesn't modify there pumps? Its written clearly from the man himself Stuart from Deltec. This will be my last post since your intentions is to start a flaming war here. Please "read" carefully and this will answer your question about the pumps.

"The Deltec units sold in the States are totally different to the European models and are fitted with imperial fittings to match the pipework.

The main differences however are in the motors and Pinwheels.
For the 110V market special pin wheels had to be produced with special magnets to match the cycle speed and produce even more air as a concequence than their European counterparts.

The European models are not actually compatible with the voltage in the states and changing the motor for a standard US Eheim will not work as the pumps are machined to improve the water and air mixing. Plus the magnets are different.

Deltec spent about $10,000 on a piece of equipment that would exactly reproduce the voltage and cycles for the US market so that they could develop a product that performed as well or in this case better than the standard model.

After many decades of producing skimmers they have learned that to play in the big world, ( long term ) that you have to do things properly.

There will always be competition and alternative products which some people will like and some people will not.

Unless you try every type you will never know the pros and cons.

You pay your money and you take your chance.

Stuart"

[Atlantis Aquariums]

I will bite:D Compare pinwheels.... Look at the output on the Aquabee..... Then compare once again the pinwheel size. Is there a difference in the aquabee pump to allow the Deltec pinwheel to spin? Just a few questions I have? Can you show me difference? If you have both aquabees in front of you, please point out the difference. I doubt the same pinwheel will interchange in the different pumps between Deltec and DAS...... Let me correct myself.... Will a Deltec pinwheel run in a DAS aquabee of the same model #?

[USC-fan]

Scott i'm surpised you went with a h&S skimmer instead of a deltec. Seeing that H&S didn't do all that magic to the pump like deltec has. ;)

The claims that the deltec ab2001 pulls more air is just not true. :)

[mufret]

Marvin, are the pinwheels that Deltec uses in the AB 2000/1 different than the one that's used in the AB 2000? I have an APH 525 as well as a DAS EX-2 and could see if the differences in the pinwheel (there are differences) would make a difference in the output of the pump(s).

As far as the debate here, I think it's somewhat misplaced. Both of the skimmers discussed are very good to excellent skimmers. Is one better than the other? Probably so but the differences are not as great as some here have stated. I use a number of both companies products besides the 2 already mentioned. They both make good products.

[mufret]

Deltec pinwheel from AB 2000

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g150/mufret/Deltecimpeller001.jpg

DAS pinwhell from 2000/1

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g150/mufret/DASimpeller001.jpg

[DeltecRules]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11154687#post11154687 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by USC-fan
Scott i'm surpised you went with a h&S skimmer instead of a deltec. Seeing that H&S didn't do all that magic to the pump like deltec has. ;)

The claims that the deltec ab2001 pulls more air is just not true. :)

I have a used APF600 I bought for my frag tank. Its doing a nice job even though there are no frags yet to put in there. The H&S A200-1260's eheim's 1260 pump body is stock but it has a special pressure fitting on the volute and I guess thats were the magical pixie dust on the pump comes from :)

The Deltec and DAS aquabee's may pull the same air but no way is the aquabee from DAS pushing the water output as the Deltec aquabee. The modifications to the magnet on the pinwheel along with the pinwheel design clearly give Deltec the edge. Mupret has posted both pics of the Deltec aquabee pinwheel and the DAS pinwheel. Both pinwheels are clearly different. The Deltec pinwheel is larger than the DAS pinwheel. The pin configuration is different on both pumps along with the shape of the pins. There are also two sets of smaller holes and 4 large holes in the deltec pinwheel to allow more flow and air output for better water and air mixture. So I guess people saying the pinwheels from DAS and Deltec are the same is out the door along with performance is IDENTICAL...LOL

[USC-fan]

i never said the pin wheel are the same as the deltec. But the DAS and H&S aquabee 2001 use the same pinwheel... ;)

It's funny how no ones says the deltec is the better perform skimmer over than H&S. I think a lot of people just look at the price different and think they are getting a lot better performing skimmer. When the truth is there is not much different. And if they was just a big different as some claim, than you would find everyone buying deltec over H&S also. But now with h&S huge price increases, i see a lot more people buying deltec.... :p

anyway here is the H&S ab2001 pinwheel.....



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9221271#post9221271 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FinsReef
Bottom Right hand side is the US spec 115/60hz impeller that we use here in the US.
HTH
Brian
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/finsreef/DSC00319.jpg [/B]

[uhuru]

I think I'll listen to someone who actually owns both before listening to someone with Deltec in their name or someone who "knows someone" who has a DAS. JMO.

[ErikS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11171821#post11171821 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uhuru
I think I'll listen to someone who actually owns both before listening to someone with Deltec in their name or someone who "knows someone" who has a DAS. JMO.
Now that sounds like a decent idea - me? You couldn't pay me to have another Aquabee powered skimmer :lol:

[Buddyboy]

Why is that ErikS? I'm about to receive an Aquabee powered skimmer shortly and curious why you made that comment? What skimmer are you currently running?

[Flamehawk]

Ok, ok,ok. I own all THREE of them, plus couple of Euro's, granted not same comparable size but all three brands. I have a DAS EX1, a H&S 150. They have the SAME IDENTICAL impeller and pinwheels. NO DOUBT about this.

I also have the DELTEC with the (4) Eheim pumps but tha's a whole different moster.

The build quality (material and craftmanship) of the H& S is DEFINATELY better than the DELETEC and DAS.

Having said that, DONT SWEAT the small stuff, all are great skimmers!

JOHNNY

[hahnmeister]

DeltecRules, I have not owned a Deltec, true, nor a DAS... but I do know plenty of people with them in my club, and have observed them in action, gotten my mits all over them. Ownership is not a qualification or disqualification of a person's experience. If I was from the North Pole and never saw another person's reef ever, then you might have a point, but as it is... its not like a person has to own a certain model car to know its reliable, what its made out of, or how it handles/performs on the road. What, you never borrowed a friends car before?

There is a certain point to be made about the ability of the Deltec to have eheim pumps rather than Aquabees. I know that in the EU, Aquabees have a reputation a bit like mag-drives over here, and even here there are some who will never want an Aquabee. So I suppose in that case, the ability to get a Deltec with an eheim is a pretty strong selling point.

In alot of other 'DAS vs. Deltec' threads, the comparison often settles on the EX-1 vs. the APF600... Aquabee vs. Aquabee.

After realizing the potential of the Eheim 1250 pumps (750lph as a threadwheel!!!) I wonder why Deltec never did adopt that pump for its own line rather than keeping the Aquabee 2000/1. It would help seperate the Deltec from the DAS if nothing else. Perhaps with the release of the eheim 1255 in 110v this spring, we may see the Aquabee 2000/1 getting replaced. Even as a needlewheel, this pump can still do 500lph easily.

[mufret]

The issues with the Aquabee pumps being used on skimmers, in my experience, comes down to keeping the pumps clean. If you regularly and properly maintain the pumps, the flap that causes most of the performance issues, will work as it's designed. Although the Aquabees may not be on par with the Eheims, I have found them to be more reliable than many other pumps being used (Sedras / Octos). I have a couple of Aquabees that were standard on the older AM Multi that are going on 8 years of use while the one in my DAS sump is going on 6 years. Not sure on the age of the pumps on my Deltec APH 525 or DAS EX2 as I picked them up used.

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11153486#post11153486 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DeltecRules
"Well if you want to follow that philosophy , you have no say in this thread as you have never owned a DAS, and currently don't even own a Deltec since you sold that and went to H&S. At least he owns a DAS , which the thread started inquired about ."

I had enough hands on experience with DAS playing around with my friends to say there is a difference and I sure can say what ever I want owning two deltec skimmers. I knew about DAS a long time ago before they were even known on reefcentral. My friend is going on two years using it. So lets say I get to see it quite often. Did I mention he had to replace the pump twice already? He also had to go through two impellar shafts because they kept breaking. It still produces but when we hooked up my AP600 on his tank when he was waiting for his replacement pump it pulled twice the skimate. I guess thats the pixy dust Deltec uses huh? And by the way I bought a used APF600 for my frag tank so I guess I am still part of the deltec club huh?
:D

"Have you ever thought how could it be physically possible to do what is started above ? Unless I'm missing something , the pumps come completely assembled from the manufacture, meaning the core already sealed in epoxy/encased .
Dude, the pumps pull the EXACT LPH of air as the Deltec Bee's. So they can say the pumps are sprinkled with magic pixie dust for all i care."

If you would read that thread I posted the aquabee pump motors or "engines" are modified. I copied this from the thread I posted. How is it impossible that Deltec doesn't modify there pumps? Its written clearly from the man himself Stuart from Deltec. This will be my last post since your intentions is to start a flaming war here. Please "read" carefully and this will answer your question about the pumps.

"The Deltec units sold in the States are totally different to the European models and are fitted with imperial fittings to match the pipework.

The main differences however are in the motors and Pinwheels.
For the 110V market special pin wheels had to be produced with special magnets to match the cycle speed and produce even more air as a concequence than their European counterparts.

The European models are not actually compatible with the voltage in the states and changing the motor for a standard US Eheim will not work as the pumps are machined to improve the water and air mixing. Plus the magnets are different.

Deltec spent about $10,000 on a piece of equipment that would exactly reproduce the voltage and cycles for the US market so that they could develop a product that performed as well or in this case better than the standard model.

After many decades of producing skimmers they have learned that to play in the big world, ( long term ) that you have to do things properly.

There will always be competition and alternative products which some people will like and some people will not.

Unless you try every type you will never know the pros and cons.

You pay your money and you take your chance.

Stuart"

Wow, you believe all that? A for the DAS not performing as well... it could have been as sinple as a 'break in' issue. Im not saying thats what it was for sure, I wasnt there, but Im just pointing out that the method wasnt exactly quantitative.

As for the rest... you just soak it right in, dont you :D? It will do your taxes too... did you know that? Lol. Im just saying, some of those 'magnificent advancements' are just what you get when you go from 50hz to 60hz. There is no special machine...all they did is buy a frequency converter so they could test the pump in Europe and see how it would be on 60hz. They start at about $1500. If you need to run more pumps at once, the size of the machine goes up... thats most likely where the $10,000 came from. Klaus has them. Anton (ATB) just got one when he entered the 60hz market, etc. However... I would just like to point out that we have that $10,000 machine coming out of our wall sockets.

Most of that stuff you mentioned about the magnets, speed, etc... thats dictated by the electricity at the wall socket, and all the technical aspects of that would be taken care of by Aquabee except for the pinwheel itself. Deltec has no 'special pump' made, trust me. The electronics on the inside are the same. The number of pumps that Deltec would want 'custom' isnt worth it to Aquabee. As for the needlewheel... well, sure, sometimes the startup is too much for 110v and the impeller needs to be trimmed back... thats all. DAS could be doing the same thing if they needed too.

Its a bit like Red Dragons. I mention them because I know you might not hold them in such high regards like the Deltecs. The motor blocks are stock Laguna motorblocks... Hagen said it himself. 1000 just isnt enough volume for Askoll/Hagen to consider something custom. There is some magnet swapping going on, which changes the torque and power handling of the pumps... but its hardly anything super special. Because of using a larger magnet in a smaller motor, the shafts are too weak... so they need to be swapped out for Ti, and because the magnets are larger in the same size hole, the magnets arent able to cool as well, so an anti-lime loop is needed with the skimmer pumps. Add the custom enlarged volute, and a CNC'ed needlewheel... and the 'super special' Red Dragon is made.

As far as the Deltec and DAS are considered, the speeds have to be the same... there is no way either could modify the pump speed from the stock Aquabee because it is an A/C pump. It is possible that one may have more torque than the other by an impeller/magnet swap, but this is almost meaningless with regards to the performance of the pump, and not likely. If the magnets are made larger (so there is less of a gap between the rotor and the stator) the pump will be more efficient, however not cool as well. It will also have more torque, but this isnt necessary, since this is a needlewheel pump where torque is almost useless. It really just ends up manipulating the wattage of the pump in the end... nothing with the performance. The motor will spin the same 1800rpms as almost any other pump this type on 60hz. Thats what will dictate the performance for the most part. Then you can bore out the volutes, outlets, etc... nothing super special. Here's the catch with that stuff though... do you know how much (for instance) an eheim 1260 needlewheel pushes for air with the enlarged outlet vs. stock 3/4"? Its the same. If any of this was at all a concern with the 2000/1 pump, then why wouldnt they just step up to the 3000? It has a larger output built in already. I bet it doesnt make a difference and thats why.

There might be some minor differences between the DAS and Deltec... but just dont go soaking up all the propaganda. Things really arent as technical and advanced as you might be led to believe.

[Buddyboy]

Pretty simple really when laid out in layman's terms. Thanks for the informative post hahnmeister!!! :) The skimmer/pump holy war really gets tiresome. But it is fun to see people get all worked up over a plastic tube! :p

[jman77]

"are just what you get when you go from 50hz to 60hz"

I've pointed this out to him before Han..... he just doesn't want to accept it. That said, I like much better my pixie dust theory.

[BlueCorn]

[moved]