Cleaner shrimp babies...

[jnarowe]

So I got in some cleaner shrimp and two of them had full egg sacks. I placed one in my fuge and the other in my QT. Today I spotted hundreds of planctonic shrimp! So I shut down the skimmer, power head, and HOB, popped in an air stone and fed a little phyto.

And what I need is some information from anyone who has successfully raised cleaner shrimp. Anyone have a good experience?

[ihopss]

I can't help you, but thas cool goodluck.

[demonsp]

Bummer the fish would have enjoyed them. Sorry i would think they would be fine with no preditors around and would eat them same as mom .

[Fish'InMN]

http://www.ifmn.net/nachzuchten/garnelen_l_amboinensis_debelius.html
http://www.breedersregistry.org/Reprints/FAMA/v17_aug94/scarlet.htm

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=726483&highlight=Lysmata+amboinensis
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=373217#post373217

And the Grand Daddy of all rearing threads...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=846955&highlight=Lysmata+amboinensis

Good luck Jonathan, it sounds like you might have to catch and remove them (larvae) the next time if you are at all serious about raising them.


Marty

[jnarowe]

Lance: That's not how it works at all. In fact, Mom will eat them given the chance and they have very delicate beginning stage life cycles.

Marty: Thanks for the links. I will read them all. Since this happened in my grow-out/QT tank, I just removed all the corals, shut down the skimmer and powerheads, and popped in an air stone set on low. I could get lucky!! :)

[Fish'InMN]

Yeah, it sounds like you have the perfect setup (or nearly so) already in place. If you could somehow provide a constant, minimal water change as one of the links mentioned, by pumping water in from your main sump/filtration system, then it sounds like you are well set.

Good luck!
Mart

[jnarowe]

My setup is not too bad, but I have a couple of aiptasia I need to pull out, and it has square corners...

My QT actually has a float valve feed from the main display, so all I have to do is filter out some water and allow it to refill.

[hybridgenius]

LUCKY.....

[jnarowe]

Pulled tha aiptasia and turned on a heater.

[aurora]

NICE... With them selling at $20-30 a piece, successful aquaculture would really help.

[Micki]

I would buy some from you! :)

[jnarowe]

well the odds of even one making it to adulthood are extremely thin at best. What I am going to do is keep the two adults I have control over in the fuge and fish them out when they have eggs. If I can get lucky on one of these attempts, and figure out how to replicate the conditions, maybe I could get something going. But really as a hobbiest, I just don't have the knowledge or equipment to tilt the odds in my favor.

I guess it comes down to how their life cycle is represented in their spawning method. Every 14 days an adult releases hundreds of eggs. So out in the wild, I would bet they are lucky to get one adult from each spawning, hence the constant egg releasing. It takes 10x+ the egg production period for a cleaner shrimp baby to settle out. The numbers are mind blowing when you think about it.

[Micki]

Pretty crazy for sure...

[jnarowe]

well at lights on this morning I had nearly 100% mortality, so that doesn't even qualify as an experiment. Barely a fart in a hurricane if you ask me. :rolleyes:

[Micki]

Awwww... :(

[jnarowe]

Yeah well, the writing was on the wall, I had just hung a picture over it! I am going to rig up a better larvae tank and try it out again.

[scaryperson27]

cool. I hope you're successful in your future attempts. Are you going to carry on your experiment in this thread? If you make a new one can you remember to post a link here? It wouldn't be hard for me to grab an impregnated shrimp to test this out on. I already have a non-utilized 20g attached to my main system. I'm going to read everything myself.

[jnarowe]

Lots of good reading about this. I am going to try and devise a round tank with some better method of circulation and more reliable heating. Maybe a plant heating mat would work better and some sort of baffles to slow down the air bubbles a bit. Like the CO2 diffusers.

[32flavors]

Hydor makes a 7.5 watt plate like heater. It's actually for Betta bowls, but might work for you... A 3-gallon Eclipse, they're hexagonal, might work, as you could drill LOTS of holes in the siphon, cover it with foam--like 2 inches worth with filter bag material encasing the foam all the way around. The intake flow would be so diffused between all the holes and the foam that it might not draw the larva into the filter... The Eclipse style lid would also allow the plate style of the 7.5W Hydor to be placed in the cartridge bed so none of the larva would end up too close to it... ust some ideas...

[jnarowe]

not bad ideas. Thanks!

[Putawaywet]

I was semi involved with a 6 month attempt to rear these guys a couple years back when I was working down at LBAOP out here on the left coast.

I can tell you it was an incredibly daunting task filled with constant ups and downs. We were housing them in pseudo-kriesels, piggy-backed to relatively large display tanks that fed them with a constant supply of filtered water. Feeding consisted of varying species of live phyto cultures mixed with newly hatched artemia enriched with Super Selco. And in spite of having access to all the balls and whistles of a public aquarium, staff still couldn't make it happen. Best they got was a 6-8 week average with a few making it to double digits.

The biggest hurdle that you will face will be trying to indentify the environmental trigger that causes their metamorphesis (settle out) into their final stage of developement.

It will take a bit of trial and error but once you get things dialed in it's possible to keep relatively high numbers alive for multiple weeks. But I fear you will quickly come to realize (much as we and many others have) that in spite of your best efforts the larve will just keep cruising along until they finally burn themselves out waiting for that final morph.

Best of luck to you

Brett

[jnarowe]

Ouch.

[BeanAnimal]

Interesting thread. So if the triggers can be found then captive breading is very possible?

[Putawaywet]

Well, unless it is something we are just physically unable to replicate then I see no reason why not.

Don't give up hope Jonathan because as bleak as I might have painted the picture I suspect the answer will one day come from someone who tries something completely outside the box and combines that with a little bit of dumb luck.

But trying to re-invent the wheel at the hobby level obviously isn't working. I mean the standard squared off isolation tank with an airstone and several daily feeds of phyto and bbs has been done to infinitum and each and every time the outcome is always the same.

Right out of the gate you are dealing with planktonic larvae that are so fragile that just netting them is totally out of the question. Heck, just bouncing off the walls of the tank can cause enough damage that they are unable to feed. The very reason why we employed kriesels and turkey bastors. Then you have food and food concentrations. Being planktonic and lacking well developed appendages they can't really hunt per se, but more so drift along until they bump into a food source which they seem to readily latch onto. The wrong size food and too low a concentration and they starve, too much food and you have water quality problems, etc. And then there's lighting? Do they drift near the surface where they are exposed to sunlight, or down deeper in the shadows? And if they drift near the surface does sunlight somehow play an active role in their development or just provide a means for them to orient themselves. (If memory serves me we did note they were mildly phototropic) Then again, does prolonged exposure to UV cause them irreparable damage? They are an incredibly small animal that comes with far more questions than answers.

My honest advice if you want to go down this road is to try breeding peppermints, which for some reason, are way easier to rear out to adulthood. There is even a book out there that shows how the author did it using flake food. Then, once you have fine tuned your husbandry skills you can start transferring your efforts over to skunk/scarlet cleaners and see what you can make happen.

Regards, Brett

[jnarowe]

That's good advice Brett. I do have a lot of dumb luck following me around, as well as Mr. Murphy. It's a battle every day! :ee2:

[Putawaywet]

Then may I suggest keeping 2 sets of rearing tanks :D

Brett

[BeanAnimal]

Breeding pepperminst may be an interesting project. Do you feel that this could be done on the easy?

[Putawaywet]

According to this book:

http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/fprswaqbooks/fr/aafprpshrimpboo.htm

It is far easier than Lysmata amboinensis

It's been a while since I read the text but their nutritional requirements are far less complex and they settle out significantly earlier. I think it was little more than BBS and crumbled up flake food as the fry got a little larger that did the trick.

Brett

[Putawaywet]

Here's some basic info from some of my old bookmarks

The Genus Lysmata

This genus is unique in caridean shrimp as they are Protandric Simultaneous Hermaphrodites (PSH). This means they first possess male organs and obtain female organs as they mature, while retaining the function of male organs. However they are incapable of self fertilization. As such, any two individuals can make up a pair.

Smaller individuals often do not possess female sexual functionality.

Newly moulted shrimp appear to release some kind of pheromone which signals to other shrimp that it is receptive for mating. The suitor races rapidly to the receptive shrimp and aligns itself directly below. A sperm packet is passed to the receptive shrimp. The mating is rapid, lasting only a few seconds.

Larvae released usually during the night every 12-14 days depending on species. Shrimp normally moult within a few hours of larval release.

L. amboinensis are very prolific, with larval counts of 500-1000+ depending on conditioning and maturity.

Eggs are carried by the pleopods.

Eggs are held normally held for 12-14 days depending on temperature and species. Hatching temperature is usually around 25 to 28 ºC .

Larvae will be approx 2mm at time of hatching. Yolk sac, mouth and eyes will all be present.

Careful attention must be paid to aeration as larvae are prone to aeration damage after zoea IV is reached.

Although yolk reserves can sustain larvae for days, they are best fed immediately after hatching.

Newly hatched brine shrimp (BBS) in the beginning will do. Rotifers and microalgae are usually omitted but should increase initial survival as well as settlement success.

Age at meta: As early as 21 days for L. wurdemanni. 50+ days for L. debelius. >120 days for L. amboinensis.

Overall prognosis: L. debelius and the peppermint shrimp complex are the most widely attempted and could be considered commercially viable. Recently promising work has also been performed on L. seticaudata. Only very limited success with regards to L. amboinensis.

References:

Bauer, R. T., Holt, G. J., 1998. Simultaneous hermaphroditism in the marine shrimp Lysmata wurdemanni (Caridea: Hippolytidae): an undescribed sexual system in the decapod Crustacea. Marine Biology 132, 223-235.

Bauer, R. T., 2002. Reproductive ecology of a protandrous simultaneous hermaphrodite, the shrimp Lysmata wurdemanni (Decapoda: Caridea: Hippolytidae). Journal of Crustacean Biology 22(4), 742-749.

Bauer, R. T., Newman, W. A., 2004. Protandric simultaneous hermaphroditism in the marine shrimp Lysmata californica (Caridea: Hippolytidae). Journal of Crustacean Biology 24(1), 131-139.
Blanchard, L., 1992. Ornamental shrimp culture: Lysmata grabhami. Technical report. Harbor Branch Oceanographic Institution, Inc., Fort Pierce, Florida, USA.

Calado, R., Bartilotti, C., Narciso, L., Santos, A.D., 2004. Redescription of the larval stages of Lysmata seticaudata (Risso, 1816) (Crustacea, Decapoda, Hippolytidae) reared under laboratory conditions. Journal of Plankton Research 26(7), 737-752.

Calado, R., Figueiredo, J., Rosa, R., Nunes, M.L., Narciso, L., 2005. Effect of temperature, density and diet on development, survival, settlement synchronism, and fatty acid profile of the ornamental shrimp Lysmata seticaudata. Aquaculture 245, 221-237.

Chace, F. A., JR., 1997. The caridean shrimps (Crustacea: Decapoda) of the Albatross Phlippine Expedition, 1907-1910, Part 7: Families Atyidae, Eugonatonotidae, Rhynechocinetidae, Bathypalaemonellidae, Processidae, and Hippolytidae. Smithson. Contr. Zool., 587: 1-106

Crompton, W. D., 1992. Laboratory culture and larval development of the peppermint shrimp, Lysmata wurdemanni Gibbes (Caridea: Hippolytidae), Part I: Laboratory culture. Master’s thesis, Corpus Christi State University, Corpus Christi, Texas, USA.

Fletcher, D. J., Kotter, I., Wunsch, M., Yasir, I., 1995. Preliminary observations on the reproductive biology of ornamental cleaner prawns. International Zoo Yearbook 34, 73-77.

Fiedler, G. C., 1998. Functional, simulataneous hermaphroditism in female-phase Lysmata amboinensis (Decapoda: Hippolytidae). Pacific Science 52, 161-169.

Lin, J., Zhang, D., 2001. Reproduction in a simultaneous hermaphroditic shrimp, Lysmata wurdemanni: any two will do? Marine Biology 139, 919-922.

Palmtag, M.R., Holt, G.J., 2001. Captive rearing of fire shrimp (Lysmata debelius). Texas Sea Grant College Program Research Report.

Rhyne, A.L., Lin, J., 2004. Effects of different diets on larval development in a peppermint shrimp (Lysmata sp. (Risso)). Aquaculture Research 35, 1179-1185.

Rufino, M.M., Jones, D.A., 2001. Observations on the function of the firth pereiopod in late stage larvae of Lysmata debelius (Decapoda, Hippolytidae). Crustaceana 74 (9), 977-990.

Simões, F., Ribeiro, F., Jones, D.A., 2002. Feeding early larval stages of fire shrimp Lysmata debelius (Caridea, Hippolytidae). Aquaculture International 10, 349-360

Wunsch, M., 1996. Larval development of Lysmata amboinensis (De Man, 1888) (Decapoda: Hippolytidae) reared in the laboratory with a note on L. debelius (Bruce, 1983). MSc thesis, University of Wales, Bangor, 110 pp

Zhang, D., Lin, J., Creswell, R. L., 1998a. Effects of food and temperature on survival and development in the peppermint shrimp Lysmata wurdemanni. Journal of World Aquaculture Society 29, 471-476.

Zhang, D., Lin, J., Creswell, R. L., 1998b. Ingestion rate and feeding behavior of the peppermint shrimp Lysmata wurdemanni on Artemia nauplii. Journal of World Aquaculture Society 29, 97-103.

[Putawaywet]

I did a quick search to see if there was anything new on L. amboinensis but it appears it's mostly that same stuff that was floating around back when I was playing with them. Regardless, some of it is worthwhile and should give you a good referecne point for getting started.

http://www.breedersregistry.org/Reprints/FAMA/v17_aug94/scarlet.htm


http://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/tamu/tamug01003.pdf

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2004/breeder.htm

http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2004/feature.htm

http://www.reefsuk.org/articles/captivebreeding/breedcleanershrimp.php

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen10.html

[Putawaywet]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11200876#post11200876 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Interesting thread. So if the triggers can be found then captive breading is very possible?

Bean, apparently I need to clarify this a bit as I just took a look at one of the links that Fish'InMN provided back on page 1.

Luis A M has pulled it off as recently as March of this year. He had a single larva go 143 days and then settle. So there is now documented proof. I have to congratulate him because I know how long and how hard he worked to make it happen. Still, not sure I have the time or energy to devote nearly 6 months for a 1 shrimp reward. But still he did it :)

So it does appear that the real secret is finding a way to keep them alive long enough so mother nature can take it from there.

Congrat again to Luis !!!

Brett

[Bri Guy]

I had my peppermint shrimp breed every month for awhile there.

the pen is a regular bic pen, you can barely see the small black plastic piece before the white shaft in the pic (the babies are super small)
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/podheadx/babypeppermentshrimp.jpg

click on for short video...
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/podheadx/th_9secpepermentshrimp.jpg (http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/podheadx/?action=view&current=9secpepermentshrimp.flv)

Congrats
This hobby is so cool

[Micki]

That is too cool!!! Did any of them grow or were they eaten by tank mates?