shopping, which one?

[sixfins]

I've been shopping for a new camera, looking at inexpensive (relative) entry level dslr's. I'm personally partial to Olympus as they've always given me good quality and durability with their film products. I've been considering either the Canon EOS Digital Rebel XTi, Nikon D40x or the Olympus EVOLT-410. They are all about the same price and I believe are comparable to each other. I see a lot of comparisons for canon and nikon, but how does the olympus stand up?

[gregr]

It compares well- the biggest difference to me is the format. The Oly is 4x3 whereas most dslr's are 3x2. From a creative standpoint wider is better (16x9 is wonderful, square is boooorrring). In most of the other spec categories the Oly seems to be on a par with the DR and D40- better in a few and worse in a few. For aquarium photography it has the benefit of having the ability to set the WB in degrees Kelvin, plus all the other presets are adjustable-- that will help you get accurate colors with the difficult lighting we encounter. Check out the range of lenses available for that lens mount. Are there good macro options? A good wide angle option? Do you ever want to shoot sports or wildlife? If so, make sure there are long telephoto lenses available.

[sixfins]

I used to have an OM-2 which got stolen a few years back, the dumb*** that took it didn't take any of my accessories. So, I still have all my zooms and a macro which I read on olympus's site that there is an adapter plate which I could use.

[gregr]

Bonus. Usually though with the older lenses on the newer cameras you lose a little functionality- but it will definitely ease the wallet and allow you to continue taking picutures while you save for newer glass (if you decide you want newer glass).

[sixfins]

Really I'm kind of torn between the Oly and the D40. I've always looked at Nikon as being the cream of the crop, just couldn't afford a decent one. I agree with what you're saying about being able to get going, but am looking for long term happiness. I believe the D40 has the lighting adjustments as well. And like I said they seem to be about the same $$$ all the way around (body, lenses, access., etc..)

[gregr]

lol- if you want cream of the crop then get a Canon :p
With the non-pro models Nikon and Canon go back and forth, with Canon winning most of the time but with the pro models Canon has been cream of the crop since wayyyy back. Image quality has been better with Canon for a long time now.

[Turbovinny]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11180232#post11180232 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sixfins
I've been shopping for a new camera, looking at inexpensive (relative) entry level dslr's. I'm personally partial to Olympus as they've always given me good quality and durability with their film products. I've been considering either the Canon EOS Digital Rebel XTi, Nikon D40x or the Olympus EVOLT-410. They are all about the same price and I believe are comparable to each other. I see a lot of comparisons for canon and nikon, but how does the olympus stand up?

what type of photography do u want to get into? IMO its the lens that makes the picture "pop" with that said u cant go wrong with any of the Canon L series lens (insert evil grin)

[sixfins]

I'm just looking for a good all around camera. I want to take pics of aquariums, take diving, of course my children and family as well as anything of intrest. I used to take pictures for a shipping line and I was burning between 15-20 rolls of film a day. I burned out a lot of cameras, which is part of why I'm partial to Oly, but Canons seemed to be hit and miss as far as longevity. I've never had a Nikon, but have always heard good things.

[mcliffy2]

Add Pentax K10D to your list (I feel like a robot, but no one here seems to give this camera its due, when it is getting rave reviews everywhere else).

[sixfins]

How does the Pentax hold up, durability wise? I'm not just looking for good quality, but durability and versatility are also very important.

[BlueCorn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11185791#post11185791 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mcliffy2
Add Pentax K10D to your list (I feel like a robot, but no one here seems to give this camera its due, when it is getting rave reviews everywhere else).

It's not a bad camera but it's low light performance isn't very good. To it's credit, it's got great weather sealing and it's very rugged. A DSLR is more about the system than the brand. Canon and Nikon give you more options.

[sixfins]

I think I'm going to save myself some $$$ and go for the Olympus EVOLT E-510. This model looks like a good deal and does everything I think I want it to. (You always find uses for the camera you didn't expect)

[wooglin]

I have a K10D and love it. For the money you cant get anything even close. It won the 2007 TIPA award for best Expert Class Digital SLR which is a category where the average price of camera is 2k, and you can pick up a K10D with a lens for 600-700 bucks. And I love being able to use old glass. There are alot of really good prime lens available on EBay for very little money that take amazing pictures.

One thing of note about the K10D, it is not a good camera for a beginner unless you are serious about learning how to use it. The automatic settings are very lacking, and you really need to understand exposure, etc to get good photos.

Here is a link to my Flickr page if you want to see some photos. Some were taken with a Pentax k100d before I upgraded to the K10d.

Wooglins Flickr page (http://www.flickr.com/photos/w00glin)

[mcliffy2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11225750#post11225750 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooglin
I have a K10D and love it. For the money you cant get anything even close. It won the 2007 TIPA award for best Expert Class Digital SLR which is a category where the average price of camera is 2k, and you can pick up a K10D with a lens for 600-700 bucks. And I love being able to use old glass. There are alot of really good prime lens available on EBay for very little money that take amazing pictures.

One thing of note about the K10D, it is not a good camera for a beginner unless you are serious about learning how to use it. The automatic settings are very lacking, and you really need to understand exposure, etc to get good photos.

Here is a link to my Flickr page if you want to see some photos. Some were taken with a Pentax k100d before I upgraded to the K10d.

Wooglins Flickr page (http://www.flickr.com/photos/w00glin)

Whoo-hoo, another member of the K10D club!

beerguy, is your low light eval based on personal experience. my research showed that one review claimed sub par low light performance, but subsequent reviews did not reach this conclusion.

I think the lack of lenses is a myth...Pentax offers a wide variety but the number seems less because they dont need to offer 2 versions (standard and shake reduction) of every lens, because the shake reduction is built in, unlike canon/nikon. Plus the Pentax is backwards compatible with their old 35mm lenses, which I hear rock.

[wooglin]

I agree, there is plenty of both new and old glass available for the Pentax line. I think what happens is alot of people look at the local Ritz, and only see one or two lenses available and assume not much is out there.

Pentax themselves offer 13 DA or DA SDM lenses today, and over the next year have another 8 or so. This is just lenses that are for Digital SLR, there are also a ton of film SLR lenses still available new. And then there is the third party support with offeres lots of lenses.

All that being said Canon does offer 30 or so unique digital only lenses. More than Pentax, but they dont offer the old Pentax glass that can be found on the cheap.

[gregr]

You've got some really great pics there- and an awesome tank.

[wooglin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11227680#post11227680 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gregr
You've got some really great pics there- and an awesome tank.

Thanks I really appreciate it.

Alan

[mcliffy2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11227574#post11227574 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooglin
I agree, there is plenty of both new and old glass available for the Pentax line. I think what happens is alot of people look at the local Ritz, and only see one or two lenses available and assume not much is out there.

Pentax themselves offer 13 DA or DA SDM lenses today, and over the next year have another 8 or so. This is just lenses that are for Digital SLR, there are also a ton of film SLR lenses still available new. And then there is the third party support with offeres lots of lenses.

All that being said Canon does offer 30 or so unique digital only lenses. More than Pentax, but they dont offer the old Pentax glass that can be found on the cheap.

Probably most important for us reefphoto geeks is that Pentax offers a 100mm macro which has pretty much identical specs to the Canon 100mm macro everyone seems to be taking their sweet macro pics with.

[BlueCorn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11226964#post11226964 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mcliffy2

beerguy, is your low light eval based on personal experience. my research showed that one review claimed sub par low light performance, but subsequent reviews did not reach this conclusion.


Yeah. I've never used one but shot with a guy for about 4 days over the summer. We were doing moonlight and lowlight images and the amount of noise that he was getting was significantly higher than I was getting. Many of the images were basically unusable because they were so noisy.

That said, it's still a fine camera. It, like any DSLR on the market today, when used properly will produce very good results. I'm a Canon snob but the advice that I giver anyone who asks is basically, buy the camera that you're most comfortable with; thats really all it comes down to.

[wooglin]

The K10D is based on a sensor that does not give great dark light performance. The same exact 10mp sensor is used by Sony and Nikon as well, and it performs in a similar way. It is great to ISO 400, fine at 800, and anything above that will only pass when printed at an appropriate size (very similar to old slr film performance with high ISO film) but looks bad when viewed in digital format.

Canon uses a proprietary CMOS sensor which is very good at low light performance, wheras many other Digital SLR's use a CCD based sensor.

[BlueCorn]

Yup, which is why I shoot Canon. ;)

[KurtsReef]

D3

[gregr]

Yeah- I'm real curious to see that new Nikon. Canon has had supperior image quality for a long time. The image quality and autofocus edge has made many pros switch boats. It'll be a big deal for Nikon if this new camera can hold it's own.

[wooglin]

The D3 supports an ISO of up to 25600 which is CRAZY!!!!! I have a strong feeling that is going to be a sign of what we can expect to get in the 1000 dollar range in a year or so. It is full frame size which is really good. The bad, all those digital lens that lots of people are building collections of dont work properly on full frame cameras. It is why I try to stick with film SLR Pentax lenses. That way when Pentax/Hoya comes out with full frame at a crazy low price, my lenses will be good to go.

[BlueCorn]

Since Canon has been shipping full frame cameras for many years, it's really not an issue for them. As long as the lens is an EF mount it doesn't matter what size the sensor is.

The D3 is a good first step for Nikon but I was surprised to see the resolution so low.

[wooglin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11231534#post11231534 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by beerguy
Since Canon has been shipping full frame cameras for many years, it's really not an issue for them. As long as the lens is an EF mount it doesn't matter what size the sensor is.

The D3 is a good first step for Nikon but I was surprised to see the resolution so low.

Only if you are buying full frame Canon lenses though right? I assume Canons digital lenses are just like everyone elses, and dont work properly on a full frame camera because they are made for a APC sized sensors, as opposed to a full size sensor.

[BlueCorn]

All EF lenses, from the dawn of time, are full frame.

EF-S, is a different mount designed for smaller sensors. You have to remember that Canon has been shipping full-frame cameras for a LONG time. ;)

[wooglin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11231705#post11231705 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by beerguy
All EF lenses, from the dawn of time, are full frame.

EF-S, is a different mount designed for smaller sensors. You have to remember that Canon has been shipping full-frame cameras for a LONG time. ;)

Not the mount, the design of the lens elements. The EF-S lens series are the lenses that are designed specifically for Canons non full frame digital cameras. These are the mainstream lenses that you will find most Rebel, Rebel XTi, etc owners have. Those lenses will not work properly on a full frame SLR. That was the point I was getting at. Alot of DSLR owners have build collections of these types of digital specific lenses, that wont work with the next generation of Full fram DSLR cameras.

[BlueCorn]

It's actually a different mount as well. The rear of the lens extends into the mirror box. ;)

[BlueCorn]

While that might be an issue with Nikon, it's not an issue with Canon. Like I've said several times, Canon has been shipping full-frame cameras for a very long time. Their EF-S, digital only, lens portfolio is currently 5 low-end consumer lenses. The EF line, which works on everything, is ~60 lenses. ;)

[gregr]

These are the mainstream lenses that you will find most Rebel, Rebel XTi, etc owners have.
I've never seen any stats but that would surprise me greatly to find that Canon's EF-S lens sales were a big hit- I predicted it would be a marketing flop on Canon's part.

[wooglin]

The EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 is the kit lens that is packaged with the EOS Rebel and its various modern flavors such as the XTi. This is the same thing that Nikon and Pentax does. For some reason all of the companies push small sensor glass for there prosumer DSLR lines.

[KurtsReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11231510#post11231510 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooglin
The D3 supports an ISO of up to 25600 which is CRAZY!!!!! I have a strong feeling that is going to be a sign of what we can expect to get in the 1000 dollar range in a year or so. It is full frame size which is really good. The bad, all those digital lens that lots of people are building collections of dont work properly on full frame cameras. It is why I try to stick with film SLR Pentax lenses. That way when Pentax/Hoya comes out with full frame at a crazy low price, my lenses will be good to go.

That is why all my Nikon lenses are full frame, not concerned about weight...which is the only real reason to have ever bought a "DX" lens. (oh, I do own a Tokina 12-24mm that is not full frame). Figured eventually Nikon would have to put out a full frame camera.

Almost made the switch to Canon last year, had the shop I stopped at had a 5D in stock the process would have begun...and would have happened over time if not keeping both systems.

Canon high end was beating Nikons...but when your talking the entry level (D40, D80, 20D, 30D) there is no difference in noise capabilities between the two. Canon gets you better colors out of the box if shootin RAW due to their not keeping the coding secret from Adobe, a big advantage...but if shooting in JPEG or TIFF not a concern.

[mcliffy2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11235658#post11235658 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gregr
I've never seen any stats but that would surprise me greatly to find that Canon's EF-S lens sales were a big hit- I predicted it would be a marketing flop on Canon's part.

So correct me if I'm wrong but this is a huge benefit of the Pentax, because the K10D is compatible with all the old K-mount 35mm full frame lenses, and even other style mounts with an adapter. So this would lead one to believe that Pentax will continue its backwards compatability when it releases a full frame, so you could use any K-mount digital lenses when you upgrade.

[BlueCorn]

Ok, I will. :D

You're kidding yourself.

Like I said before, full frame lenses make up almost the entire Canon line of lenses (~60). EF has always been full frame compatible and will continue to be so.

The EF-S lenses, all 6 of them, are sold with the consumer, entry level cameras (i.e. XT, XTi). I don't know anyone, who shoots seriously, that uses any of that line.

Now take a look at Pentax. It's true that you can use your old K mount stuff, with limited functionality, just like you can adapt old Canon F mount lenses for current cameras. All of Pentax's new lenses are the "DA" line. They're all for AP-C sized sensors.

The Pentax is a fine camera and I know folks who use them to take excellent pictures. That said, the logic that you're using to defend your use of it make very little sense. If you like it and get good results, continue using it.

Cheers

[mcliffy2]

Not trying to defend my choice, I'm very happy with it fundamentally because I think it has equal image quality and superior features to comparably priced canon/nikon options. Just trying to understand how the backwards compatability factored into it, because admittedly, this still isnt clear to me. From what I understand, I can use old Pentax 35mm lenses (albeit without autofocus) on the K10D, but I did not think the same was true for Canon. So Pentax releases a full frame, what would happen if I use the DA lenses with a full frame? And what is the effect of using Canon's full frame lenses with their consumer DSLR format?

[gregr]

Correct me if I'm wrong Nikonians but I believe the Nikon system does not even require an adapter. The Pentax and Canon systems do. As has been mentioned, you lose some functionality with the older lenses.
what is the effect of using Canon's full frame lenses with their consumer DSLR format?
The effect is what's known as the lens multiplier. For Canon's prosumer cameras (D60, 10D, 20D, etc) it is a 1.6x multiplier. That means 100mm will seem like 160mm. I have a 100-400mm zoom lens and it acts like a 130-420mm zoom lens on my 1DMII because it's a has 1.3x multiplier [8mp]. If the sensor size changes significantly so does the lens multiplier.
If/when Pentax releases a body with a full frame sensor you will lose the lens multiplier and be back to normal, so to speak. The lens multiplier is great for wildlife and close-ups and terrible for landscapes and architecture.

[BlueCorn]

So Pentax releases a full frame, what would happen if I use the DA lenses with a full frame?


If they physically fit the camera, most "Digital Only" lenses will cause vignetting on a full frame sensor because they project a smaller image circle. An example of that is the Tokina 12-24 (which is basically the Pentax 12-24 DA with different paint). The Canon version is a digital only lens but is an EF mount. While it will physically fit on my camera it's only usable from about 17mm-24 because of vignetting.

[KurtsReef]

GregR, your correct...Any nikon lens will fit any nikon camera (well SLR's made after the 1950's) the only issue you will run into shooting one of the Nikon DX lenses with a 35mm film or full frame digital camera is vignetting around the edges which depending on the lens could be slight or as the case with the 10.5mm very unusual and large.

It should also be stated that the DX lenses can still be used on the D3 only in the "High speed crop" mode which now will take up the old DX sensor size ignoring the rest of the sensor. The photographs will be a smaller size as with the D2x it went from 12.2 to 6.0 I assume the same is true with the D3.

[mcliffy2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11240753#post11240753 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gregr
Correct me if I'm wrong Nikonians but I believe the Nikon system does not even require an adapter. The Pentax and Canon systems do. As has been mentioned, you lose some functionality with the older lenses.

The effect is what's known as the lens multiplier. For Canon's prosumer cameras (D60, 10D, 20D, etc) it is a 1.6x multiplier. That means 100mm will seem like 160mm. I have a 100-400mm zoom lens and it acts like a 130-420mm zoom lens on my 1DMII because it's a has 1.3x multiplier [8mp]. If the sensor size changes significantly so does the lens multiplier.
If/when Pentax releases a body with a full frame sensor you will lose the lens multiplier and be back to normal, so to speak. The lens multiplier is great for wildlife and close-ups and terrible for landscapes and architecture.

One correction - it is my understanding you do not need an adapter for most Pentax 35mm lenses (the K-mount variety). The other, older style Pentax 35mm lenses (M and 6/7 I believe) are what do require an adapter.