Lionfish other than Volitan...

[equinecpa]

I would like to get a lionfish as a centerpiece fish for a 65 gallon tank. I love Volitans but fear it will outgrow this tank in a hurry. I was thinking perhaps an antennata or zebra dwarf.

I don't want a lion that spends its time hiding all of the time -that's why I love the volitans cuz they always seem to be out. Are any of the other lionfish as active as the volitan?

thanks

Carolyn

[reefer334]

Try a radiatta or the antenna, a dwarf will hide until food is present and they are not as hardy as the bigger lions.

[reefergeorge]

I vote antenna. If you get a radiata I would make sure it is eating. They are pretty difficult to get eating prepared foods.

[phish guy]

i would say get a fuzzy dwarf lion. i used to have one and he spent alot of time in the open and after a few weeks was eating anything that hit the surface or that flew by him mid-tank. i can send you pics if have never seen one.

[super stooge]

my brother had a fuzzy dwarf lion awhile ago, it was a gorgeous fish and had alot of character. it would follow him around the tank and to this day is still one of my favourite fish. it unfortunantly choked on a piece of a plant tho :( :( :(

[equinecpa]

For some reason fuzzy lions just don't do it for me. I don't even like the look of them. I find they lack the graceful lines of a lionfish.

A couple of you have voted antennata and radiata. Do they stay out as much as the volitans do? I saw a Radiata at the LFS yesterday and it didn't move at all while I was there where both their volitans were out hovering at the glass.

I'm open to a non-lionfish for this tank but want a very visually interesting fish.

[FMarini]

Pretty much all lionfish are wait and hunt predators. Only juvie lions are active.

I would suggest if you want something cool and moving, consider a harlequin tusk wrasse, or a tassled filefish

[dendro982]

Mombasa, mombasa, mombasa!
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Fish/lionAug26.jpghttp://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/lionAug17a.jpg http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Lionfishes/aug06_07a.jpg

Only the problem with weaning - so far was impossible for mine, while no problem with weaning volitan, cleaner wrasse and mandarins. Go figure.

As active as any fish, if the flow is not too strong - it's difficult to fight flow with such big "paddles". Ah, one more - if it is not fed once a 3 days - then it just sits hopelessly in a quiet corner, conserving energy, and having no purpose in life - just waiting for an end.
Be good to it, make it's life worth of living, will you?

[equinecpa]

Now that fish DOES IT for me...what a gorgeous specimen. Does anyone know any online retailers that carry this species???

[FMarini]

Great photos of a beautiful fish....

I still stand by my statement, juvenile lionfish swim actively to find food, but as soon as they reach adulthood, they all lay and wait patiently.

In regards to P Mombassae very few stores will identify this fish correctly, it usually mismarked as a P Antennata lion. Althou the common names are "devil lion", and deepwater lion", the key to discerning this fish are the multiple rows of eyespots on the pec fins.

Also Dendro brings home an important point, many of these lions are difficult to wean over to dead prepared foods suggesting you'll have to feed the tank frequently w/ lots of ghost shrimp or live feeders. If you live near the coast and can scoop you own SW feeders -great

If you want to see other great shots of lions, and learn about lionfish husbandry feel free to read this
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-11/fm/feature/index.php

[equinecpa]

I've read that article many times (in fact I have it pulled up right now LOL) - I refer to it ALL the time.

You say "all" lionfish when mature lay, and wait patiently, but what about the Volitan's? I've seen some huge ones in store tanks, and they're always swimming (perhaps not fast, but swimming).

I have no problem with slow swimming, I just am looking for visability. I had seahorses previously, and got a little tired of people asking "is there anything in this tank"?

[dendro982]

Sorry, I was not intended to insist ;)
My red colored lion jumped out, being 1 year old, bought in the age, equivalent to human's age 3yrs.
The dark brow one - have it few months only, bought in equivalent age 7, when it was a little less, than 3", including tail fin, and now it is close to 5" (roughly, they don't stay still for measuring :D

And incomplete information from my side: the tank is tailored for the needs of deepwater slow swimming fish: 90g with only 110W PC light, with tank depth 2 ft (60 cm). Flow was kept down, while possible, and raised up to the 20x tank turnover/per hour, when the red slime started to grow.
Flow - soft only, that means 2 Seio powerheads, 600 gph each, directed up to make more swimming place, unaffected by flow. Return pump - was 317 gph of the strong flow behind and down the rock, now - 650 gph, hushed by spraybar at the bottom.

My lions are swimming a lot, and sitting on the rock - the equal time. Even more - for a nap, in the cave, sometimes in the visible zone, sometimes - at the opposite side of the rockwork.
Some already uploaded photos, typical poses:
http://thumb1.webshots.net/t/59/559/6/79/71/2812679710081040121CNagqH_th.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2812679710081040121CNagqH) http://thumb1.webshots.net/t/30/466/7/0/24/2355700240081040121KEKRmg_th.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2355700240081040121KEKRmg) http://thumb1.webshots.net/t/69/69/5/9/15/2999509150081040121TGehgT_th.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2999509150081040121TGehgT)
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Fish/LionMar25back.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Lionfishes/lionDec12_06.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Debris%2090g%20tank/eggcrateMar25_07.jpg

Today's swimming sequence (25 small files) is at http://dhost.info/defineyourreef/refpages/lionG.html

I have an impression, that the swimming is like watching over territory - what is going on, and sometimes - swimming in the stream, with folded side fins, like taking massaging shower.

This lion is always looking for a food. Now I'm trying that strategy: if it wants more food - should start to eat the krill.

The red one was very bright specimen in the tank, half-dried from starvation (I'm dead serious), and the brown one, with visible scales, had damaged side fin, and was sold at lower price. Now restored.

In LFS they cautiously named them "looks to me like" and "I think it is" antennata and zebra dwarf. So, look for yourself on the clues.

On the negative side:
- The sole cost of feefing is $30-60 per months, depending on the size of ghost shrimp and their mortality. Mostly they are unreasonably small.
- Have to maintain one more tank - FW for feeding ghost shrimp:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g78/dendro982/Debris%2090g%20tank/Jan25Feederstank.jpg
- number and location of corals are restricted because of low light, requirement of the clean water, and the lions really don't appreciate their perches, being occupied by something else. But - like to be under gorgonians, as a cat - under bush.

My 2 cents, could post more illustrations, but now am out of time, sorry.

[equinecpa]

Thanks so much for all of that information. I have a 65 set up for the fish with slow flow. I have 2 54 W T5's over the tank so it is not overly bright. Pump is a quite one 3000 and right now just one powerhead so I don't think flow or lighting will be an issue. Finding this fish might be more of a challenge...but I'm up to it.

As far as feeding goes: How many ghost shrimp do you estimate you feed it a week? I've always wondered about how much one should feed a lion.

By the way your pictures are great very informative. I may put my LFS on the search....

thanks

Carolyn

[dendro982]

The brown, young one - 14 big or up to 42 very small, price is the same" $15 for 50 shrimps, size independent.

The 1 yr old red one - 21 big or up to 42 very small.

I'm feeding every day, otherwise they look miserable - other fish is fed right before their eyes, and they - not, for what?
It's not recommended - I was told repeatedly, that feeding once in 3 days, until the belly starts to bulge slightly, will be much better for their health.

Availability:
The brownish kind is almost always available here in LFS, just taek a close look: bunny lion (not my idea, but right to the point), the side fins have the free, membraneless half of ray length - you know from the photos, what I'm talking about.
The eyes should be clear, transparent. Damaged fins will restore pretty soon, if no bacterial or fungal rot is visible.

The only close to them will be zebra dwarf, with solid covering of the fin's rays by stripped, not dotted, membrane; and antennata - the bottom part of the side fin's rays will be without membrane at all. Unless I'm mistaken - information is from the article above and Google Image Search.

Good luck!
Really nice fish. I like the red better, more complicated dignified behavior, and brown is quite simple, straight-forward and food-oriented.

My particular brown lionfish has strange thing with blood circulation: normally it's white and dark cold brown, When hunting - for a seconds it becomes pale, almost white, returning to normal after eating in a 1-2 seconds. And when sleeping - spotted unhealthy color on the fat hump above the head - as if it was dead for a week
:eek2:

[smitch]

I just went into my local pet store and asked him to keep an eye out for a spot fin lion, a red one. He never called or anything. A couple weeks later, there he was. This is a pretty young picture. I think my lights might be to bright for him. He hides until the lights turn out. I could try feeding him more (as mentioned above).

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f325/Smitch260/100_1970.jpg

On the other hand, this guy is awesome to have. He's out all the time. I find it a bit weird because at night he likes to swim a lot.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f325/Smitch260/100_2094.jpg

[dendro982]

That's it - just like my baby. Very nice fish. If you can, make low light area for it (large eyes, you know), or at least some cave and rock shelf bottom for a hiding.
As it starts to grow - try to keep tank covered. Mine jumped out, when I lifted lights for a cooling in the middle of a summer heat. Better be safe.

Congratulations, best find.

[LisaD]

dendro,

I notice in one of your tank pics, you have a mandarin. Are mandarins generally safe with larger predator fish? I ask because I moved mine to my 55 - it wasn't doing well in a smaller tank. The 55 has a refugium and a large pod population. The mandarin is doing fine. But I'm a little concerned. Is is a smallish (2" TL) psychedelic male. I have a green wolf eel blenny and large-ish waspfish in the tank (along with more peaceful tankmates). Do most fish heed the mandarin's warning-looking coloration and leave it alone?

[FMarini]

Lisa-
while i cant answer your question specifcially--cuz I never kept a mandrin w/ any of my predators. Its pretty well known that mandarins are coated w/a noxic slime coat. They apparently taste terrible

[dendro982]

With both mombasa lions were safe:
- psychodelic mandarin dragonets (2 males),
- scooter dragonets (2 smallest females),
- other than 2 first (together with long-starved lion) - blue-green chromises, including very small,
- damsel, percula,
- spaghetti-like cleaner wrasse,
- 2 blood shrimps - a necessity, frequently serving lion's mouth.

Theory says, that anything, that fits the mouth - will be eaten, that has teeth - will nip lion's fins, that crustaceans are not safe with lions... This is the 3rd lion, that I have - too much for coincidences, at least I think so.

From what I had seen - they ignore rock surface running fish at all. The small scooter came in less than 1 " from the lion - without any problems.
They were for 1 year together, then I reduced maintenance and returned mandarin and scooter to the LFS, where they were taken to a better home at once. Less bioload now.

Mombasas just didn't consider anything but soft-shelled shrimp as a food for some reason. Camel and peppermint shrimp will fall in this category too. Mine was eaten not by lion - by another, more fast moving fish.

You can see tankmates in the swimming lionfish gallery - the link is in earlier post. Contact with the small scooter is on the video at the bottom of this page: http://defineyourreef.freehostia.com/refpages/sunfeed.html
(free host doesn't allow hotlinking).

Of course, anything can happen in universe, but it was safe in my humble experience.

[equinecpa]

OK Found a Miles Lionfish online but is this the same as a Mombasa? I read conflicting tales...

[dendro982]

Any chance to get a photo?
From what I had seen through Google Image Search, Pterois miles looks like Pterois volitans, only with very wide fin rays. Long face, small eyes - horse-like face vs. big-eyed cutie pie of Pterois mombasae :p

[equinecpa]

I got a pic and I thought it looked like a Volitan so I don't think it is the right fish...it's not the big eyed fish I'm looking for. I got a Zebra dwarf coming in today and will keep on waiting for the Mombasae.

[FMarini]

really a P MILES, hard to believe actually.
The whole lionfish family taxomony needs a serious revision, the intial description of P Miles used a holotype speciman thats looked eerily similar to a P Volitan. I have only seen photos from Scott Micheals that he suggested was a P Miles, but now that i've seen a few red sea P Volitans and their heads are elongated and have ocular projections, looking identical to what P Miles has beeen decribed as, I'm not sure what to believe.

Anyway P Miles look identicals to P Volitans except a longer face. The fin ray length has been debated.

Cute baby P Antennata--i'm suprised your frogfish hasn't chowed it down yet.

I too have had mixed success w/ keeping certain fish w/ lionfish. I've had many chomis and damsels eaten, but 2 out of 8 survivedfor many yrs together. I added a smaller lionfish to a tank of larger established lions, then the smaller lion was eaten, but if i introduced the smaller lion when all the fish where young, they all got along and never "appeared" as food to one-another.
In regards to keeping lions w/ cleaner fish or shrimp, I have a theory, if the lion comes from the wild and is familar w/ the coloration & behavior o cleaners they leave them alone, but if you raise a small lion and its never seen a cleaner, it will eat it.
At least thats my experience

[dendro982]

Mr. Marini, do you know something about "flags" on the spine rays? The one lionfish hadn't them, another - has, and a prominent ones.
Just curious - not much information is available.

[reeferaddiction]

radiata is my fav even though i have a volitan that is a pretty dark red

[dendro982]

My apologies: exclude the blood shrimp (fire shrimp) from the list on the lion's tankmates.

My second Mombasa just ate the oldest fire shrimp (after molting), that served for a mouth cleaning for a volitan and the first mombasa without problems for more, than 1.5 years.

Almost 3" long, nose to tail. The smaller chromises are still swimming around...

$45 breakfast for a $47 fish.
Moral for me: lionfish should be fed better.

Now nave to acclimate another shrimp to a tank with high Mg content (bryopsis fight), and look for another cleaner for a lion: not a cleaner wrasse, not a blood shrimp - can't even imagine what else it could be.

[equinecpa]

I finally have my lionfish - I've had this one about a month now -eats frozen mysis like a champ - and I love it to bits!

I believe its an antennata.

http://www.dfwmas.org/Forums/UpLoAdS/lionfish_031508_520.jpg