PDA

View Full Version : what is tripping my GFCI?


dwillingm
11/19/2007, 08:30 PM
I have had a problem with something in my tank tripping my GFCI for about 3 weeks. The problem is intermitent, sometimes it wont happen for several days, sometimes it happens several times in an hour. I tried replacing the GFCI outlet, this did not help.

I have about 15 electrical devices in the system, how can i test them to see which one is the culprit?

Thanks for any advice!

dwillingm
11/20/2007, 03:17 PM
does having a grounding probe in the tank make the GFCI trip easier?

any comments would be appreciated.

I am trying to replace the 2 power strips today, maybe that will help.

RWillieK
11/20/2007, 03:26 PM
My heater trips it on occasion. Luckily I'm around when it does it.

Kreeger1
11/20/2007, 03:29 PM
Heater, number one thing to check

rgulrich
11/20/2007, 06:38 PM
The only thing I can think of to try is go through the water-contact equipment piece by piece (power heads, heaters, and the like) to try and track it down. This is no guarantee, however. The last time mine was tripping it turned out the household a/c was arcing out on the outside compressor and it took the GFIC with it. Guess my feet should have been tingling a bit more...

Cheers,
Ray

dwillingm
11/20/2007, 09:57 PM
I have taken out the grounding probe, and no trips so far. I dont know much about electricity, but is it posible that a voltage leak was traveling through the grounding probe, causing the GFCI to trip?

homebrewdude
11/20/2007, 11:07 PM
My koralia powerhead caused mine to trip...

rgulrich
11/21/2007, 06:51 AM
If you do have voltage travelling through ground, you have issues somewhere else that need to be addressed. That's what my failing a/c unit did to knock mine out. It might be worth the expense of talking to an electrician if you've ruled out aquarium components.

Ray

kj5432
11/21/2007, 08:32 AM
IF YOU KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOU, YOU SHOULD REPLACE THE GFCI'S WITH REGULAR WALL OUTLETS. I DON'T CARE WHAT ANY ELECTRICIAN SAYS. I LOST MY ENTIRE SPS TANK DUE TO PUTTING MY TANK ON GFCI'S. THAT'S AT LEAST 10 GRAND NOT COUNT ANYTHING ELSE IN THE TANK. GFCI'S ARE TOO FINICKY. THEY OFTEN TIME ARE UNABLE TO HANDLE THE SAME LOAD AS THE CIRCUIT BREAKER ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE HOUSE.

I COULD GO ON ABOUT THIS FOREVER. I WORK IN THE ELECTRICAL FIELD.

JUST FOLLOW MY ADVICE. REMOVE THE GFCI CIRCUITS ASAP.

rgulrich
11/21/2007, 08:54 AM
Please stop yelling-that is what typing in all caps is in these threads.

If your 15 amp GFI cannot handle the load, you need to either reduce your power draw or move some of it to another circuit.

The first time you need a GFI, if you live through it, you might be wishing you had left them in place and taken bit calmer approach to managing your electrical use and needs.

While I do not "work in the electrical field" (I work in the electro-magnetic, actually), I did install my own 15-amp GFI circuit and outlets (pulled my own Romex, etc.) after taking the required test, permit, and then had it inspected. I have been through the electrical code. Believe me; it is there for a reason.

I could go on as well, but Darwinism will kick in eventually.

Cheers,
Ray

smleee
11/21/2007, 10:41 AM
Lol. GFCI receptacles can save YOU, maybe not the tank, but it's your choice. GFCI receptacles can wear out over time; if you decide to rid yourself of them, you can put in a GFCI breaker at the panel instead.

eee

K' Family Reef
11/22/2007, 05:25 PM
for what its worth here is what i did
(i am no expert in these matters but saw this at lowes so decided to hook it up)

the main return pump is hooked directly into the wall socket non gfci - BEC its the most important thing!

i purchased a gfci 'outlet' that plugs into the powerstrip from lowes... it is designed for construction work to detect stray voltage water etc etc etc

so everything else but my return pump is hooked in thru this adaptor that i purchased.


how has it worked ???
only one time has it ever gone off while i was working in the tank - i splashed water up on a power strip had setting on top of center brace

other than that it has never prematurely tripped or is it 'sensitive' whatsoever.

stiffler1
11/23/2007, 10:49 PM
I recently had a few trips on my GFI and couldn't figure anything out.

Then I replaced my PC bulbs and blew both ballast on one light. One after it was running for about 45 minutes and the other when I tested the bulb. Wasn't sure what happen but thought this was the problem till tonight.

Was cleaning the tank tonight and took a look at the UV sterilizer and noticed bulb was out. Tried an old bulb, no luck so I went to LFS and asked him to try one, no luck. He said that I must have blown a ballast and have some kind of electric problem to blow three ballast. Told me this was really odd to have this all happen within a short time. Started looking at stuff as I was cleaning and all of a sudden I felt the problem. ZAP, Hagen 802 powerhead cord in the tank had a nick in it and zapped me. Unsure how it happen, I had it about 4 years. Quickly unplugged and got it out of the tank. Cord fell apart and disconnected from the powerhead with in a few minutes of being out of the water. When I examined it closer the plastic was actually melted alittle.

So I need a new light, new skimmer and a new powerhead or replacement parts. It has been an expensive week or so. Any recommendations on powerheads? 125 w LRWF and some corals( Leather, polyps, bubble, chili) . Just getting into corals.

I have another 802 that I will be only using for water changes on my tanks after that. I noticed the fish were edge the last few nights. I also added a surge protector while I was at it.
Any recommendations?

If I was you I would check everything.

killagoby
11/23/2007, 10:57 PM
The electrician that put in my outlets for my tank suggested against GFCI's because in his experence they are too prone to this. He put in regular wall sockets and I use power strips with it built in to them.

hpglow
11/23/2007, 11:30 PM
Have you ever gone into a house that had a gfci trip while the family is out of town? Well, the point I'm about to make is that while the national electric code says that they are required within so many feet of a wet location. I will tell you that when I run dedicated circuits to my tanks and computer I never put them in. They are too sensitive for the type of equipment that is in use. Put regular receptacles in there and make sure there is a ground probe in the tank.

Oh yeah back to that first question. Where do most people put their second refrigerator or freezer? In their garage or unfinished basement. What kind of receptacles are those? GFCI. What does a freezer smell like after its off for four weeks? Its not good, most of those people throw them away and go out and buy new ones. Thats how vile they are.

If you really have to have a gfci in there go get a hospital grade levington unit it will be the most reliable.

rgulrich
11/24/2007, 06:47 AM
I can only respond based on my experience as well. I have been using GFI-protected circuits on my aquariums since they started becoming easily available in the late 80's. The only time they have tripped was when they were overloaded or needed. (Equipment used on that 225 in '89 was 3 3MDSC Little Giants, 1/4 horse chiller, 4 Hagen 800 power heads, 4 175W metal halide, 2 250W metal halide, and a bit more)

This includes 80%-loaded 15 amp circuits, like the dedicated circuit I installed for my current 180. The county actually got a kick out of inspecting it and seeing what it was going to be used for (it sits next to the 225 Amazon, which doesn't consume nearly as much juice). hpglow, while I know that a lot of people blow off code, are you really saying your installation isn't up to code, you didn't pull a permit to install the lines in your house, and you didn't have it inspected? I mean, some of my friends are restoring an old farmhouse here, and it still has the original two conductor (you the type, two bare wires on ceramic posts running parallel above the ceiling) sitting in place; it wasn't removed when the wiring was upgraded. Yep, it would work perfectly well even though it's not in code. You think it would be a good idea to put it back into service, or should they stick with the code?

I thought it was common knowledge that all circuit breakers fault more frequently and at lower than their marked ratings the more times they are tripped. I think it would make much more sense to try and track down and fix the problem than just remove the symptom of a tripping GFI, although a bad GFI might be a problem, too. Kind of like looking for the oil leak in car as opposed to just adding a few quarts a week.

I guess some of the questions that need to be answered before you install or remove a GFI are:
Are you comfortable that none of the equipment you have purchased will never come in contact with the water in other than the way intended?
Are you comfortable that the equipment will never wear out in such a way that will risk electric shock?
After a long vacation, would you rather come home to a stinky house and dead aquarium in the event of a failed piece of hardware, or stick your hand in the water to find out why everything is dead anyway?
Is your life insurance policy paid up and your will current?

Yes, I wear a helmet when I ride my Harley and seat belts when I drive my Jeep.

Cheers,
Ray

hpglow
11/24/2007, 10:44 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11244132#post11244132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rgulrich
I can only respond based on my experience as well. I have been using GFI-protected circuits on my aquariums since they started becoming easily available in the late 80's. The only time they have tripped was when they were overloaded or needed. (Equipment used on that 225 in '89 was 3 3MDSC Little Giants, 1/4 horse chiller, 4 Hagen 800 power heads, 4 175W metal halide, 2 250W metal halide, and a bit more)

This includes 80%-loaded 15 amp circuits, like the dedicated circuit I installed for my current 180. The county actually got a kick out of inspecting it and seeing what it was going to be used for (it sits next to the 225 Amazon, which doesn't consume nearly as much juice). hpglow, while I know that a lot of people blow off code, are you really saying your installation isn't up to code, you didn't pull a permit to install the lines in your house, and you didn't have it inspected? I mean, some of my friends are restoring an old farmhouse here, and it still has the original two conductor (you the type, two bare wires on ceramic posts running parallel above the ceiling) sitting in place; it wasn't removed when the wiring was upgraded. Yep, it would work perfectly well even though it's not in code. You think it would be a good idea to put it back into service, or should they stick with the code?

I thought it was common knowledge that all circuit breakers fault more frequently and at lower than their marked ratings the more times they are tripped. I think it would make much more sense to try and track down and fix the problem than just remove the symptom of a tripping GFI, although a bad GFI might be a problem, too. Kind of like looking for the oil leak in car as opposed to just adding a few quarts a week.

I guess some of the questions that need to be answered before you install or remove a GFI are:
Are you comfortable that none of the equipment you have purchased will never come in contact with the water in other than the way intended?
Are you comfortable that the equipment will never wear out in such a way that will risk electric shock?
After a long vacation, would you rather come home to a stinky house and dead aquarium in the event of a failed piece of hardware, or stick your hand in the water to find out why everything is dead anyway?
Is your life insurance policy paid up and your will current?

Yes, I wear a helmet when I ride my Harley and seat belts when I drive my Jeep.

Cheers,
Ray

Well you obviously have never worked with an electrical inspector. They don't catch very much. Deciding weather to put in a gfci or not is a question of your health vs dead fish. The point I am making is that these things do trip and you have to consider what your mitigation plan is when your on vacation. Its not always faulty products that cause them to trip. Some inductive loads such as motors (ie your pumps), florescent lighting, and computer will distort the sin wave to to the point that you will get false trips.

All breakers from 15 to 30 amp are supposed to be rated to be used as the primary on off switch and are not supposed to degrade based upon how many times they have tripped. If that is not the case then UL is not supposed to list them. So when you say that it is common knowledge your pretty much spitting out housewife's tales you may as well tell him that pop rocks and soda will blow his head off.

rgulrich
11/24/2007, 11:48 AM
Thank you for your professional opinion, hpglow. I can only tell you what the other professionals in your field passed on to me in Tucson when I maxed out the circuit in the mid 80's and had to have them do some work (as far as the breaker dumping its load-carrying capacity with repeated tripping). Perhaps you should send out a note across your professional organization, like I do with the IEEE Computer Society and others, when things like that happen. If you'd like, I can pass your information on circuit usage and how it affects a GFI circuit to the national fire protection organization; I'm sure they'd be interested in hearing about it and would appreciate your help in updating the code. Here's their url:
http://www.nfpa.org/index.asp
and their contact page:
http://www.nfpa.org/categoryList.asp?categoryID=142&URL=Contact%20Us

I'd just prefer it if we didn't encourage folks to take unnecessary risks, like checking how much gas they have in the tank with a lit match. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense.

I guess you could say that the point I'm making is that perhaps you should consider the mitigation plan from following someone's advice in an online forum that could cost you your home or your life, when they can't (easily) be held accountable, and you have no proof of their credentials to hold them accountable.

Please try to keep the conversation civil, polite, and factual. If you have a point, you can make it without trying to be insulting. You're quite right, I obviously haven't worked with an electrical inspector, although I have paid for their services, just like I've paid for electrician's services, and gone through the inspection process with them. If you have experience, you should be able to relate that experience. If someone else has different experience, you should be able to accept that as well.

Thank you for bringing to my attention about the breakers not decreasing their load carrying capacity with repeated tripping, however. I'll be sure to not suggest that as a possibility again.
Please accept the fact that on my 15 amp GFI circuit I installed here in accordance with code, under permit, and had subsequently inspected, it carries 3 250W metal halides, 6 96W CF, a 1/5 horsepower chiller, 2 Tunze 9015s, 2 Model 3000 Quiet One pumps, 4 Hydor Koralia, 2 300W heaters, a Wave 2K (about 1.2 amp high torque), Ozonizer, and a handful of other gear without any issues. Yep, pretty snug on the circuit. It works, GFI self checks well, and hand-tester checks well. I used 12 gauge Romex when I fished the cable to allow for an upgrade on the 15 amp breaker to a 20 in future (if an electrician can find one; it's a Federal Pacific box with its own set of issues from what the electrician that did the house inspection told me).

That's my experience, FWIW. I'm sorry yours is different.

Cheers,
Ray

hpglow
11/24/2007, 12:01 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11245318#post11245318 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rgulrich
Thank you for your professional opinion, hpglow. I can only tell you what the other professionals in your field passed on to me in Tucson when I maxed out the circuit in the mid 80's and had to have them do some work (as far as the breaker dumping its load-carrying capacity with repeated tripping). Perhaps you should send out a note across your professional organization, like I do with the IEEE Computer Society and others, when things like that happen. If you'd like, I can pass your information on circuit usage and how it affects a GFI circuit to the national fire protection organization; I'm sure they'd be interested in hearing about it and would appreciate your help in updating the code. Here's their url:
http://www.nfpa.org/index.asp
and their contact page:
http://www.nfpa.org/categoryList.asp?categoryID=142&URL=Contact%20Us

Cheers,
Ray

Well considering that in Arizona "professionals" don't have to pass an exam to do electrical work I think you should use that word loosely.

When you chose to single me out in your original post, you removed this from being a civil argument. There were several others suggesting that GFCI was not a good idea, and you could have contributed your objection without singling me out, however, you chose to call me out and that is when this conversation deviated from constructive.

rgulrich
11/24/2007, 08:07 PM
hpglow,

I'm sorry; I didn't mean to insult you, honestly. Please take a few moments to re-read the above posts, in order. The only time I "called you out" was in direct response to some of your information that I (and the national fire protection organization, among others) think may actually put someone's life in danger. What would you suggest I do?

The professionals/peers you refer to in AZ are your peers, not mine. I work with a lot more voltage (electro-magnetic, actually) in a lot of other ways, and haven't lived in AZ in a few years now. I don't know what they think of their peers in the electrician field elsewhere.

Strangely enough, I had to pass an exam to get the permit to put this circuit in. Perhaps that was a good thing-I learned a lot from going through the code.

OP, perhaps you should look again at the other posts suggesting removing the GFI breakers, those that recommend against it, and decide for yourself. You might even consider asking a few of your local electricians for their perspective, over the phone or in person.
Just a thought.

Cheers,
And be safe.

Ray

dukecola
11/24/2007, 08:46 PM
GFCI's can trip for no apparent reason. I can't tell you how many times I get home and the damn GFCI is tripped and the tank has been stagnent for hours. Yes, they protect humans, but IMO you will loose lots of livestock with GFCI's tripping. I came home the other day and my micro tank was tripped. Main tank was OK, no GFCI on that.. All that's running on my micro's GFCI circuit is a small powerhead and an air pump. *** over?

killagoby
11/24/2007, 10:05 PM
There are better ways of protecting your tank than with a GFCI.

rgulrich
11/25/2007, 07:47 PM
Look for a UPS with a true sine wave output, like an APC Smart-UPS 1000VA. Use it back up only a small circulation pump, with possibly a small airstone in the sump. This will give you the maximum run time and keep the aquarium running.

There are other suppliers out there that build sine wave UPS as well. Most UPS will check the circuit when you plug them in, so if you have a bad circuit to begin with, it might not even work.

Here's a link to an APC thread on the topic:
http://forums.isxusergroups.com/thread.jspa;jsessionid=afDVXEtYWSta7TQpSy?messageID=1178

The thread also suggests considering a backup generator if it's that critical.

Troubleshoot why your GFI tripping. Saving the livestock is one thing; not cashing in your (or someone you care about's) life insurance is something else.

ReefKeeper Mag refs:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rn/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/nftt/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-02/eb/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-05/rn/feature/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-06/rn/feature/index.php

Advanced Aquarist Magazine editorials ref:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/9/aaeditorial/view?searchterm=ground%20fault
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/10/aaeditorial/view?searchterm=GFI


OP, I hope this helps address your concerns.

Cheers,
Ray

BeanAnimal
11/25/2007, 08:53 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11227623#post11227623 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kj5432
IF YOU KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOU, YOU SHOULD REPLACE THE GFCI'S WITH REGULAR WALL OUTLETS. I DON'T CARE WHAT ANY ELECTRICIAN SAYS. I LOST MY ENTIRE SPS TANK DUE TO PUTTING MY TANK ON GFCI'S. THAT'S AT LEAST 10 GRAND NOT COUNT ANYTHING ELSE IN THE TANK. GFCI'S ARE TOO FINICKY. THEY OFTEN TIME ARE UNABLE TO HANDLE THE SAME LOAD AS THE CIRCUIT BREAKER ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE HOUSE.

I COULD GO ON ABOUT THIS FOREVER. I WORK IN THE ELECTRICAL FIELD.

JUST FOLLOW MY ADVICE. REMOVE THE GFCI CIRCUITS ASAP.

I Would question your expertise in the electrical field based on the advice you just gave.

GFCIs are intended to protect YOU the tank owner, not the fish.

Best practice is to separate the loads by placing critical components on individual GFCIs.

Wall Receptacle type GFCIs appear to be less prone to nuisance tripping (as compared to the cord and plug style).

If the GFCI IS tripping then you have a problem that needs to be looked at. Ignoring the problem by removing the GFCI is certainly not good advice.

BeanAnimal
11/25/2007, 08:56 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11228396#post11228396 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by smleee
Lol. GFCI receptacles can save YOU, maybe not the tank, but it's your choice. GFCI receptacles can wear out over time; if you decide to rid yourself of them, you can put in a GFCI breaker at the panel instead.

eee

I would not recomend the GFCI breaker. You are then putting all of your eggs in one basket. A much better idea is to use multiple GFCI recpetacles on one or more circuits and use standard breakers.

BeanAnimal
11/25/2007, 08:58 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11243322#post11243322 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by killagoby
The electrician that put in my outlets for my tank suggested against GFCI's because in his experence they are too prone to this. He put in regular wall sockets and I use power strips with it built in to them.

Your electrician had it backwards... the power strip type GFCIs are usually more prone to nuisance tripping.

However, as long as your setup works, then all is good :)

BeanAnimal
11/25/2007, 09:16 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11244975#post11244975 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hpglow
Well you obviously have never worked with an electrical inspector. They don't catch very much. Deciding weather to put in a gfci or not is a question of your health vs dead fish. The point I am making is that these things do trip and you have to consider what your mitigation plan is when your on vacation. Its not always faulty products that cause them to trip. Some inductive loads such as motors (ie your pumps), florescent lighting, and computer will distort the sin wave to to the point that you will get false trips.

All breakers from 15 to 30 amp are supposed to be rated to be used as the primary on off switch and are not supposed to degrade based upon how many times they have tripped. If that is not the case then UL is not supposed to list them. So when you say that it is common knowledge your pretty much spitting out housewife's tales you may as well tell him that pop rocks and soda will blow his head off.


While I understand where you are coming from, I don't fully agree.

GFCIs can certainly nuisance trip, but they are much better than the first generation units. Isolating critical components onto individual GFCIs is a very easy way to lessen nuisance trips while increasing safety. My system has run for over 2 years without a single nuisance trip. Furthermore, I have dozens of clients with server or ROOMS FULL of servers that are fed by GFCI protected circuits. In 5 years I have never had to reset a breaker at any of those locations.

As for the talk about breakers as switches:
Some breakers are switch rated, some are not. Saying all 15-30 amp breakers are switch rated is painting with a pretty broad brush.

To add further to my disagreement the ratings are based on the type of load being switched. Lets look at "SWD" and "FLD" type ratings. The SWD is switch rated but not for inductive loads. The FLD rated breakers are suitable for switching lighting loads.

You also know (as well as any other experienced electrician) that continual tripping of a breaker can weaken it. Of course this depends on the type of trip mechanism in the breaker (thermal, magnetic, oil filled,.... whatever).

Justinandkrista
11/25/2007, 09:18 PM
Hey im no expert but i am an elecricain in training. It sounds like the circut you have it on could be overloaded. A 15 amp 120 volt circut has a max wattage of 1800 watts. Most breakers are made to trip at 80 % of that total. A gfci is a device that detects current leakage and will trip if it senses 5milli amps i think. It could be that you are overloading the gfi. IMO i if you are looking for safty from water splashing on your recpticals it might not be a bad idea to look into a bubble cover to protect your outlet. I think that using a GFI is a big risk in killing power to your fish tank and problems twords it " corals dieing"

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/03_b/hartwellph2.jpg

ugly i know but its another opiton. Im not sure what u have for load off of your gfi but other outlets could be triping it. maybe thing about pulling a new dedicated circut to your fish tank.

Justinandkrista
11/25/2007, 09:23 PM
Hey im no expert but i am an elecricain in training. It sounds like the circut you have it on could be overloaded. A 15 amp 120 volt circut has a max wattage of 1800 watts. Most breakers are made to trip at 80 % of that total. A gfci is a device that detects current leakage and will trip if it senses 5milli amps i think. It could be that you are overloading the gfi. IMO i if you are looking for safty from water splashing on your recpticals it might not be a bad idea to look into a bubble cover to protect your outlet. I think that using a GFI is a big risk in killing power to your fish tank and problems twords it " corals dieing"

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/03_b/hartwellph2.jpg

ugly i know but its another opiton. Im not sure what u have for load off of your gfi but other outlets could be triping it. maybe thing about pulling a new dedicated circut to your fish tank.

BeanAnimal
11/25/2007, 09:30 PM
Breakers are not made to trip at 80% load :) We are only supposed to load a circuit to 80% of its rating. Even at an 80% continuous load switching on and off a device with a large inrush current can push the already warm breaker into overload.

That said, a breaker is not 100% perfect and will trip somewhere close to the rating... I am not sure what the allowable threshold is but I would guess a few percent on either side of the rating. It is also common for a breaker to weaken after repeated overloads (trips).

The receptacle bubbles are certainly not a bad idea but they do nothing to protect the end user from a faulting pump or other piece of equipment.

Justinandkrista
11/25/2007, 09:46 PM
Sorry for the dubble post.all this talk about inspectors is crap he lives in a house that has already passed inspection. There is no reason that any inspector would walk into a random house and call you for it. Code says in residental work Gfi's are to be installed around sinks: Kitchen, bathrooms laundry rooms ect, and to protect outdoor recepticals or any in wet locations. If you have a fish tank in a living room chances are that living room is not gfi proteced. I have seen some really ****ty elecrical work i think that using Gfi's is overprotective,As long and you make good conections and keep a standard outlet away from water splash your fine. the bubble cover i mentioned earler is made for outside outlets. it is call wetherproof and made for that kind of protection. Usally we will wire a gfi in the garage and pull power aka the load side of the gfi to all of the outside plugs. The outside plugs are just standard plugs that are protected by that first gfi. the outside plugs require these bubble covers. Even a gfi outside has to have one of these covers. So these covers are the first way of protection. They are very ugly but why risk your time and money killing your livestock.

Justinandkrista
11/25/2007, 10:40 PM
Thats true breakers arnt made to trip at 80% I meant to say be wired at 80%. The Idea of a pump or other equipment going bad is a good suggestion but i realy dont see how a pump submersed in water could cause a fire or other problem. A light fixture might over heat and burn up the balest. Maybe use multiple gfi's for all the equipment. I frown on the idea of one fixture or appliance killing power to all the others that are need to run a salwater reef.

Justinandkrista
11/25/2007, 10:45 PM
I think most of the pumps we use are sutiable for outdoor use anyways and they shouldnt have electrical problems mainly mechanical.

BeanAnimal
11/25/2007, 10:50 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11254351#post11254351 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justinandkrista
all this talk about inspectors is crap he lives in a house that has already passed inspection. There is no reason that any inspector would walk into a random house and call you for it.I agree that all of the code banter is pretty useless. However, once something is brought up, it is best to correct it for the sake of the less informed folks who may stumble upon it later :)

Also, it is now common (if not required) for a homeowner to get an inspection before the sale of a house. Silly things like GFCIs around wet locations are exactly what the nitwit inspectors look for. Not a big deal either way, but certainly something to be aware of if people do their own work. In other words, do it right and do to code.

If you have a fish tank in a living room chances are that living room is not gfi proteced. i think that using Gfi's is overprotective ,As long and you make good conections and keep a standard outlet away from water splash your fine. I am not sure you understand the benefit of the GFCI then. The GFCI will protect you from equipment that has an exposed hot lead. A perfect example is a broken heater. Without the GFCI the water in the tank will be at the potential of the heater (120V) Lets say you lean over the tank, 1 hand on the reflector and put the other in the water. You just got shocked, or killed. A GFCI would have protected you and de-energized the circuit.

You don't even have to touch the reflector. Lets say it is a basement tank and you standing in your sock feet. A piece of equipment has a fault. Without the gfci you are NOT protected when you stick your hand in the tank. As soon as you do, current will flow from the tank through your body to the floor.

Usally we will wire a gfi in the garage and pull power...
...They are very ugly but why risk your time and money killing your livestock. The covers do not provide anywhere near the same type of protection that a GFCI does. One is a preventative measure and the other is an active safety feature.

As I mentioned, you can easily use multiple GFCIs on a single branch circuit. If you separate the critical equipment between a few GFCIs then a nuisance trip will not bring down the whole system. At the same time your tank will be MUCH safer for you and your family.

Adding a ground probe will ensure yet another layer of protection.

It should be noted that a ground probe without a GFCI abates some types of risk but also introduces risk that was not there to begin with. If you use a probe, you really should be using a GFCI!

You should also never use a ground probe unless it is bonded directly to the house ground!

BeanAnimal
11/25/2007, 10:54 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11254710#post11254710 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justinandkrista
Thats true breakers arnt made to trip at 80% I meant to say be wired at 80%. The Idea of a pump or other equipment going bad is a good suggestion but i realy dont see how a pump submersed in water could cause a fire or other problem. A light fixture might over heat and burn up the balest. Maybe use multiple gfi's for all the equipment. I frown on the idea of one fixture or appliance killing power to all the others that are need to run a salwater reef.

With all due respect, I am not quite sure you understand the danger and subsuquent reasoning for the use of a GFCI.

Fire is not what we are trying to prevent with the GFCI. We are trying to prevent shock or electrocution!

An internal (or even external) pump that faults can (and will) energize the water in your system (or the pump frame) without tripping the breaker. As soon as you come in contact with that water or pump frame, you become a conductor.

BeanAnimal
11/25/2007, 10:56 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11254744#post11254744 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justinandkrista
I think most of the pumps we use are sutiable for outdoor use anyways and they shouldnt have electrical problems mainly mechanical.

Pumps short out all the time :) That is why you have to use a GFCIs on pools and spas. That is why the bonding rules are so strict for such equipment.

That said, if you have an external return pump, it could be placed outside the GFCI protection. The internal pumps, powerhead and heaters are certainly something that should be protected.

Justinandkrista
11/25/2007, 11:36 PM
I completly understand where your coming from. It is just a toss up on witch you value more your own safty or the safty of all the time and money into your tank. I guess i am just a little more protective with the tank. The equepment that we use is meant to be submersed underwater and is well insolated so most likley that would not happen. Equipment should be checked daily. And yes your very right all of those scenarios could happen. A standard outlet wouldnt kill power to those pumps or heaters so you would have a live currnet still traveilng to those appliances. I guess A gfi is probley the right way to go It is code. It must not be on an overloaded circut and you would have nusent triping problems. also when hooking a gfi up make sure to tighten the screws well. Get a good turn on them and wiggle it around then tighten them again. sometimes they can wiggle lose and arc resulting in a trip. All i think it comes down to is checking your gfi's to make sure it hasent tripped.

BeanAnimal
11/26/2007, 01:05 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11255026#post11255026 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justinandkrista
I completly understand where your coming from. It is just a toss up on witch you value more your own safty or the safty of all the time and money into your tank.I feel that you can do both if you put a little thought into the setup.

The equepment that we use is meant to be submersed underwater and is well insolated so most likley that would not happen. It happens every day :) A lot of the stuff sold in this hobby is junk. Even the good stuff leaks. Heaters and pumps lose seals and/or crack all the time.

This thread is a perfect example. The OP has a piece of equipment that is leaking enough current to trip a GFCI. Given the right circumstances that same current could be deadly without the GFCI.

Equipment should be checked daily. Sure, but how does one check for stray voltage/current on a bad piece of equipment? The GFCI is a pretty darn good indicator! Again, this thread is a perfect example. The OP tried different GFCIs. That rules out a bad GFCI and means that a piece of equipment has a fault :) A process of elimination will find the bad equipment.

I don't have a problem with folks who make an informed decision to NOT run a GFCI. As informed the informed, it is best to help inform understand the issue.

Have a nice evening :)

pescadero
11/26/2007, 08:27 AM
Interesting thread. I have to agree that it is not a good idea to pull a GFCI out of your circuit because of nuisance trips. If you're having nuisance trips, there are only two possibilities to consider:

a) The GFCI is doing its job and equipment is defective, or
b) The GFCI is defective and the equipment is OK.

In condition "a" there is a problem that presents imminent electrocution risk to anyone who comes into contact with the tank. In condition "b" there is no electrocution risk. Think about that. Its not a good idea to bet one's life on the assumption that you're dealing with condition "b" and not condition "a". For your own safety you should always assume that you are dealing with the life threatening situation.

So how does one assess the problem? Its easy -- you systematically remove each individual component on the circuit until the nuisance trips cease to occur. This method will easily identify any individual component that has a leakage current in excess of 5mA for 25 mSec.

BeanAnimal
11/26/2007, 09:42 AM
Exactly :)

pescadero
11/26/2007, 03:23 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11254771#post11254771 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I am not sure you understand the benefit of the GFCI then. The GFCI will protect you from equipment that has an exposed hot lead. A perfect example is a broken heater. Without the GFCI the water in the tank will be at the potential of the heater (120V) Lets say you lean over the tank, 1 hand on the reflector and put the other in the water. You just got shocked, or killed. A GFCI would have protected you and de-energized the circuit.
what do you think about the option of placing the tank on a isolated mains in an ungrounded system with non-conductive flooring?

smleee
11/26/2007, 04:08 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11253987#post11253987 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I would not recomend the GFCI breaker. You are then putting all of your eggs in one basket. A much better idea is to use multiple GFCI recpetacles on one or more circuits and use standard breakers.

Yeah, I was intending that more for those with "sensitive" GFCI receptacles and a dedicated circuit for the breaker.

eee

Justinandkrista
11/26/2007, 07:16 PM
Its very true all of it. I wouldnt use them. I would trust my equipment not to have any current leakage into the tank. Your free to ask my journeyman he is a RC member "skinz78" Im not 100% what he would say.

swimfree
11/26/2007, 07:45 PM
I had an electrition add an outlet just for my tanks last month and noticed he did not use a GFCI. I asked him about it. He said many GFCI units have been recalled because they are overly sensitive. So my breaker will trip if there is ever a problem.

skinz78
11/26/2007, 09:17 PM
Alright, Here go's, I know people are going to disagree with me but that is the beauty of america. As a professional electrician I have to advise everybody to employ the use of GFCI's. GFCI's are made to protect you the user. I currently don't use any on my tank. I know I am Dumb. The reason for this is that I just upgraded my tank and moved it to a new location. I need to extend my deadicated circuts to the new tank location still. I have been shocked by a faulty powerhead, I instantly disposed of it. It is not fun getting shocked and downright dangerous. Getting shocked can stop your heart if you get hit the wrong way, it just depends on how you are grounded.

I know that if your tank trips your GFCI you run the risk of killing your livestock. There are many different ways to have tank desasters. And yes when you have one you will get over it somehow. I had a tank break a 1 am before. Stuff happens.

IMO I would rather be safe and have a GFCI trip than take a chance on shocking myself. Personally I don't see a reason to have the lights on the GFCI. If the cord is out of the water the chance of getting a zap from this is slim. You would have to be doing some pretty crazy maintanance in your tank. When I go out of town and I'm away for a few days I have somebody check my tank 2 times a day. If something does go wrong I have a name and # of sombody they can call to fix it. Think about it, shipping for most items is at least 24 hours and most things are ok with this. If nobody looks at your tank in more than a 24hr pieriod then you need to make different plans.

GFCI breakers aren't a good option. You can purchase 6-7 GFCI recepticals for the price of 1 GFCI breaker.

I do like Justin's idea on the use of bubble covers they are cheap insureance. My new tank came out of a lfs and I tore it down. The outlets it was useing didn't have cover plates on them. I could see the wireing and the corrosion the salt was causeing. Corrosion = loose fitting wires = fire.

To sum it up I think the more insurance the better. GFCI's + Bubble covers = Cheap life and fire insurance.

If your equiptment is tripping the GFCI try replaceing the GFCI first. If it continues to trip try unplugging a couple of devices an hour at a time and see if it trips. Eventually you will find the problematic device.

You can easily replace faulty equiptment and critters. You can't replace your own life. Just my .02

BeanAnimal
11/26/2007, 09:31 PM
And if you split the critical equipment between GFCIs then you really have nothing to worry about.

When I get my controller finished my tank will be fed by (3) branch circuits and 9 GFCIs (3 per branch). That way I can put critical equipment on different breakers AND isolate it via GFCI.

Most DIYers are capable of building a power snake with (2) GFCIs in it. In addition they will be much more reliable than a cheap $5.00 power strip!

BeanAnimal
11/26/2007, 09:35 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11258402#post11258402 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pescadero
what do you think about the option of placing the tank on a isolated mains in an ungrounded system with non-conductive flooring?

We can all run down to the LFS and buy an isolation transformer and ground monitor :)

Ungrounded systems have their merits, but only if you can ensure that they stay ungrounded! Active monitoring is a must.

jdieck
11/26/2007, 09:38 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11225778#post11225778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dwillingm
I have taken out the grounding probe, and no trips so far. I dont know much about electricity, but is it posible that a voltage leak was traveling through the grounding probe, causing the GFCI to trip?
If a device is leaking voltage / current to the water, without the probe the GFCI will not trip as the tank is basically insulated from ground but the voltage will be there so when you touch the water you may get a shcok before the GFCI trips.
You still need to find what is tripping it.
The GFCI could also be tripping not only from a voltage leak but also rom mini sparks that create transient voltage in the line.
Equipment that may create mini-sparks are:
a) Heaters when turning on and off
b) Relays and solenoids when activating
c) Heavy consumption equipment with false contacts in the plugs. Check the plugs of lighting equipment (and chillers) for cleanliness (Some times if salt water has slashed on them they may corrode and need to be cleaned with fine sand paper)
d) Some AC fractional motors (Not many are found in the hobby but some external pumps may use this kind of motors)

skinz78
11/26/2007, 09:53 PM
by BeanAnimal
And if you split the critical equipment between GFCIs then you really have nothing to worry about.


I totally agree but most reefers are strapped for cash so they choose to skip this step.:(

by BeanAnimal
Most DIYers are capable of building a power snake with (2) GFCIs in it. In addition they will be much more reliable than a cheap $5.00 power strip!

Two things I must stress is that if you know nothing about electricity don't be afraid to ask questions. And make damn sure your connections are good and tight, loose wires cause fires.

pescadero
11/26/2007, 11:19 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11261229#post11261229 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
And if you split the critical equipment between GFCIs then you really have nothing to worry about.

When I get my controller finished my tank will be fed by (3) branch circuits and 9 GFCIs (3 per branch). That way I can put critical equipment on different breakers AND isolate it via GFCI.
I am currently getting ready to redo the wiring for the room that will hold my filtration system. I am also thinking about putting a separate service panel. Like you mentioned, I had thought about three circuits: one for pumps, one for heaters, one for lights. Each circuit each circuit would have mutiple GFCI, one for each device. That way if one device trips a GFCI, chances are that the interruption will be limited to one load branch on the circuit, and the failure won't take out something else that's essential, like a heater taking out the pumps.

One weakness in the approach of placing each device on its own GFCI is that there is no way to trip in the event that several devices each produce exceptionally small leakage currents, like 5 devices on their own GFCI that each leak 1 mA. You'd need an independent monitoring circuit to take care of that.

pescadero
11/26/2007, 11:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11261264#post11261264 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
We can all run down to the LFS and buy an isolation transformer and ground monitor :)

Ungrounded systems have their merits, but only if you can ensure that they stay ungrounded! Active monitoring is a must.
it sounds like you knew that the next words out of my mouth would be "line isolation monitor." :p


Yes, ungrounded systems have their merits. OR personnel can stand in a pool of saltwater and place their hands on a defective/leaky AC powered medical instrument and face no electrocution risk... as long as the line isolation monitor isn't sounding.

I've been giving serious thought to building an isolated/monitored system. The problem though, is that the system relies on absence of a ground via a non-conductive floor. If you were ever to have a catastrophic leak, like a tank rupture, I think that a rapid saltwater flood would convert the isolated system into a grounded system. In that circumstance a GFCI-based system wouldn't seem so bad...

pescadero
11/27/2007, 03:41 PM
oops. wrong thread.

spamreefnew
11/27/2007, 04:48 PM
i am an electrican and i use all Afci breakers for my reef that is an ARC FAULT breaker , i use thease to protect the HOUSE from cheap aquarium electrical gadgets that are prone to failure....if your gfci is tripping it must be something wrong with equipment. gfis sample the power from the hot and neutral wires,if the amprage reading is off by .05 amps the gfi will trip. that means you have voltage leaking to ground,that will only get worse with time without gfi/afci protcetion and eventualy will cause a fire or dead livestock. find the bad equipment

BeanAnimal
11/27/2007, 09:14 PM
Heres my .02

AFCI breakers are MUCH more prone to nuisance tripping than GFCI breakers. They are very sensative to capacitive and inductive loads (ballasts and pumps).

Several major manufacturers have lobbied to make AFCIs mandatory in each new NEC (NFPA) code revision. The NFAP would only bend as far as requiring them in bedrooms and used some conjured figures to show that arcing type fires happen most often in bedrooms. The REAL reason is that branch circuits in bedrooms rarely carry anything but an alarm clock and a table lamp, maybe a small TV. They AFCIs nuisance trip with more general use items.

An AFCI will NOT protect from arcing on the LOAD side of a ballast, transformer or power supply.

That said, it could prevent a cheap power strip from going up in flames. However, you assume a fairly real risk of nuisance tripping taking down everything on the tank.

I would stick with a ground probe and multiple GFCIs. I would use drip loops and high quality power strips mounted where they can not get wet or be affected by salt creep. I would cover any used receptacles with "childproof covers" to keep the moisture and salt creep out.

You are the first electrician I have ever met that is a fan of AFCIs. :)

Justinandkrista
11/27/2007, 11:13 PM
I have heard that afci's are going to replace all breakers in the new 08 code book not just the bedrooms smoke decectors. THAT WOULD SUCK! If you have ever tried to trouble shoot a afci circut it is a huge pain. Way harder than a gfci. And making up a panel full of afci breakers usally looks like poop. They are way to sensitive and expensive. Beananimal's .02 is not the only way but is the correct way by code to wire appliances that are used in wet fish tank locations.

skinz78
11/27/2007, 11:49 PM
wow this thread has sure strayed from dwillingm's problem.


dwillingm, how is the troubleshooting going? Any luck finding the troublesome device?

dukes707
11/28/2007, 05:53 AM
when is the last time you serviced your equpt., your pumps in particular? i had this problem and for the life of me i couldnt figure out twhat it was. i finally narrowed it down to my return pump. my mag drive hadnt been cleaned in quite some time and it got all gunked up with a bunch of crap and when it would stall it would trip my gfi everytime!!! it took me about two weeks to figure it out. needless to say i watched my tank like a hawk until i figured it out, but once i cleaned the pump and it was back to running smoothly no more power trips. so my advice would be to check all your pumps and service them if need be, that might just do it for you. HTH

dukes

BeanAnimal
11/28/2007, 08:00 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11269790#post11269790 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by skinz78
wow this thread has sure strayed from dwillingm's problem.


dwillingm, how is the troubleshooting going? Any luck finding the troublesome device?

He was given the information needed to find and fix the problem. This is a new problem. Simple logic tells us that either the GFCI or a piece of equipment has developed a fualt.

Step 1) try a different GFCI to determine if a faulty unit is causing the trips. He did that.

Step 2) Isolate the faulty equipment by a process of elimination. He should be doing this now.

Step3) replace the faulty equipment.

The rest of the discussion has been born of a need to address comments by other posters. This is a learning experience for everybody involved. The OPs questions have been answered and then some!

skinz78
11/28/2007, 09:08 AM
maybe the rest of the discussion should be started in a new thread instead of pirateing his

BeanAnimal
11/28/2007, 11:02 AM
Skinz,

with all due respect, the conversation evolved from a question and responses to that question. The thread is not pirated and it IS full of relevant information.

It is up to the OP to report back with his findings. In the meantime people may wish to continue to address the other points that were brought up.

The OP has his answer and plenty of reasoning to make a decision based on the opinions of several people. When people answer a question, others (more or less informed) may not agree and therefore post alternative information. Who decides what is relevant and what is not? Who decides whos opinion is valid and whos should be countered?

This is a public discussion, not a moderated question and answer FAQ.

rgulrich
11/28/2007, 04:53 PM
Folks,

Thank you to all of the professionals that have stepped in and more adequately addressed the OP's concerns than I at the outset.
My apologies if I confused the issue, that was never my intent.

Cheers,
Ray

BeanAnimal
11/28/2007, 05:32 PM
Ray you attemped to answer the OPs question, and did a good job. Nothing to apologize about.