Not Safe For Acrylic?

[46bfinGA]

Can someone please explain this before I ruin my brand new 500 gallon tank. I just bought 4 of these and dont really feel like having crazing in my tank. Are these powerheads use at your own risk? I really need some clarification/guarantee before I stick these on my new tank.

[mpdharley]

I asked the company about this before I bought mine, and they said they would work fine on acrylic tanks. Although my question was along the lines of "would they work", I imagine if there were any potential issues, they would have brought them up.

Hopefully they will respond here, but if not, an email to the company should get a quick answer.

[46bfinGA]

Well I sent an email so hopefully I get a response.

[raynist]

I think they should be fine as long as the acrylic is not too thick.

[RumLad]

I think nearly all products you can purchase will be called "use at your own risk" by the manufacturers. Most will have a limited liability clause that will make them liable for replacing the product only, should it fail. Any subsequent damage will be your responsibility to prove their product was at fault. An often lengthy and expensive proposition. They usually have deeper pockets than you or I.

With that much saltwater only a fraction of an inch away from catastrophe, I wouldn't bother with the risk myself. At least not until the product has been proven over a longer period of time.

[raynist]

What is the concern about using this on acrylic as opposed to glass?

They had these on acrylic tanks at MACNA this year.

--Ray

[RumLad]

About half way down this page:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1183341&perpage=25&pagenumber=37


Excessive heat build up.

[46bfinGA]

Thanks for posting the link Rumlad. I hate to say it but I think the Tunze are in my future.I just cant afford to take a chance.
I didnt get a response back from EcoTech.

[reefsafe]

I think we may be taking Ecotech's customer service for granted. We expect a reply within the hour. I think we sometimes forget that they have a business to run. I am sure they will respond as soon as they can.

[46bfinGA]

Well they had time to respond in other threads why not in their own forum? No big deal I understand they probably have alot more things going on then I do.


Old Post 12/06/2007 11:32 AM
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[mpdharley]

Well, I just checked all 3 of mine and they seem to be okay (I just read the other thread). I'll definitely be keeping an eye on them though. So far though, after running for over a week, the area under the pump on the outside of the tank is a little warmer than the area surrounding it. But it is no where near anything I'd call hot.

[46bfinGA]

Well they say thousands have been sold and this is the first incident,so your probably fine. I just am not sure If I want to take the chance. Sucks to because I allready bought them,and was looking forward to installing them.

[FOSELONE]

no answer yet...wow...those pictures are everywhere...im also looking into geting a pair of these...but if thats going to be the result...its looking pretty bad...

[mpdharley]

I don't like running in a "hope nothing happens mode", but at the same time, I needed a better solution than the closed loop for my tank. I REALLY don't like having power in side the tank either, so this was the best option. I may also go the route (mentioned in the other thread) of building a box to house the Vortechs. Don't know yet.

Also, if the issue (in the other thread) was a faulty pump, then that is also something that could happen with any power head inside the tank or any other piece of equipment. Which, could also lead to all kinds of problems, dead inhabitants, etc.

But, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on the virtues of power heads (or Tunze) vs Vortechs, etc.

[FutureInterest]

I'm surprised they didn't respond by now... Historically they have always been good at addressing our concerns.

[Tiduch]

I am not here to defense EcoTech. Just share my experience since I own both Tunze and Vortech powerheads. Each have it cons and pro. I set my vortech on reef-crest at 2/3 speed. I use my hand to cover and check the vortech a lot of time and it is only warm even at the highest speed. I love the flow it provides.
The above case in one really bad motor in a thousands. Can you imagine any powerhead with a defective pump sitting in your tank and you reach your hand inside to do something? A hole in your tank is probably your least worry if that happen.
I do not hesitate to buy another one if I find any discount.

[EcoTech Marine]

Hey guys, sorry for not being back in response to this thread. You can imagine that this recent issue has us going over a lot of information and triple and quadruple checking all of our specs, data and customer history to date. The bottom line is that we do not feel that our pump is dangerous on acrylic tanks.

The case that was reported is the only known case that has occurred out of thousands of pumps sold. Regardless, we have been working with that customer to rectify the problem both before and after the posts that he made on this forum. There were a lot of factors involved in that case, both involving our product and involving factors that we could not control. We have been repeatedly painted as the bad guy, however, I don't believe that the circumstances and our offers to rectify the situation truly paint the picture of an evil company. Anyone who knows us knows that we are reasonable people, and as hobbyists in this industry we actually care about the future of our customers and this hobby.

If our pump needs any changes to eliminate even an 0.005% chance of damage, we will make those change and make those available to all of our customers. However, we do not believe any changes are necessary. I will post more information in time, explaining in detail what kind of factors were responsible for the isolated incident.

-Tim

[reefsafe]

In addition to making a revolutionary product, you guys maintain excellent customer service. Keep up the good work guys.

[JRaquatics]

I am behind Tim and his companies product. I had troubles with my Vortechs and they handled it in a prompt and perfessional manner. IME this is a company that does stand behind their product with stellar customer service.

[mpdharley]

For me, the Vortech pumps are the best option. I have never liked the size of the Tunze products and a closed loop just isn't pushing out enough flow for my tank. So, having bought 3 and possibly needing another one, I'm sticking with the Vortech pumps.

Obviously, I will keep an eye on them, but so far, underneath the motor, the tank is barely warm.

Now all we need is a night mode! :-)

[steve414]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11334461#post11334461 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JRaquatics
I am behind Tim and his companies product. I had troubles with my Vortechs and they handled it in a prompt and perfessional manner. IME this is a company that does stand behind their product with stellar customer service.


Same with IME

[melev]

I've been thinking about this for the past couple of days, and if I had an acrylic tank and was worried about excess heat but wanted to use the VorTech pumps anyway, I'd probably run them at a slower rate and add an extra pump or two to get the flow I desired.

As we all know, we each have to tailor the equipment to suit the needs of our tank. That includes the room we're using, where the plugs are located, how the tank is set up, the material and thickness used, and what the livestock can tolerate. And each of us tune our equipment to work for our needs based on those parameters.

Some of us use ballvalves to dial in the flow, dimmers to adjust the lighting, and settings on controllers to limit how our pumps run and/or cycle. It's not be a good option for me to run my VorTechs on 100% flow around the clock, so I don't.

[46bfinGA]

Spending another $4-800 to run the pumps at half speed doesnt make sense to me.I wouldnt want 6 powerheads in my tank if I could get by with 4 at full speed.

I may end up with 2 Vortechs anyways and I will give them a shot and see how they run.I just bought 4 -Tunze 6100's and the multicontroller as well ,so I should have plenty of flow.

[melev]

I bet you will. ;)

When I had my Tunze 6100s, I didn't run them at full speed either. Rarely do I find a situation that demands full flow all the time at any given area.

[mpdharley]

I run all three of my pumps in reef crest mode, with one master, two slaves, two of them sync'd and one in anti-sync. Given the way that the reef crest mode works, I'm guessing that it will help to keep the heat down since they don't run at full speed all the time. Although, I do have the flow turned all the way up for when they are at the 100% point of the mode.

[jnarowe]

That's an interesting point Marc, but look at it this way:

I bought into the Vortech line based on the published flow and electrical consumption. So my math gave me a need for 9 pumps x 3200 gph @ 35W for 28,800 gph plus the 4,200 gph from my return pump after head loss. The Vortechs would provide the needed flow for just over 300W, and using equivalent Hammerheads, I would be running at close to 2,500W.

The down-side for me is obvious. But having to use them on pulse or 60% on continuous changes the equation quite a bit. So while it doesn't make sense for you to use them at 100%, for me, it was/is needed. I don't really care about waves per se, and I know that is the "hot" subject in flow these days, but I am concerned with the net flow. It's tough for me to get my head around net flow when creating waves, because as I understand it, a true wave multiplies the flow in some fashion. I just don't undesrstand the math.

I certainly would want randomized flow though in an effort to reduce detritus piles...so that brings me from 9 units to maybe 12. That seems fine to me in terms of net flow, although the $5K seems a bit stiff for the net flow. The one fear I have had since getting the Vortechs (outside the heat issue) has been the upkeep. With 12 pumps, I would have to have at least one out of service at all times just to keep them clean, nevermind a failure of some kind requiring service. Mine have been back and forth so many times now, that when I bought my 5th pump, I still only had 4 mounted. So IME, to keep 12 pumps running on the tank, I would actually need 14 just for a margin of error.

So that brings me back to my request for a fan mod. Being able to run them at 100% for whatever period desired and keep the temp. below 110F seems to be an excellent and marketable solution. I don't think anyone wants to buy an expensive pump only to be able to use it at some percentage of full power.

[chriscobb]

I have to agree with Jonathon on his points.....why would you pay that kind of cash for the pumps and only be able to utilize it at half it's potential?

[melev]

I'm not saying use it at half its potential, I said tailor it to your tank's particular needs. Keep in mind there are plenty of things we use daily at lesser strengths. Your car's speedometer goes much higher than the legal limit. Your oven can broil food as well as just warm it up. Your water heater can be adjusted to match your home's needs. The volume on the TV goes way up, but rarely do any of us leave it on full blast. And so on...

My point was that if there is a problem for acrylic tanks, an adjustment may be necessary on the part of the consumer. Just like we don't use metal scrapers on acrylic tanks. Maybe it is necessary to turn down the flow for acrylic, maybe not.

My own pumps didn't give me a bunch of problems. I sent one back that was bad right out of the box. It was quickly replaced.

The fan-mod might work if it ever comes to fruition, but then again you go right back to 'how loud is the pump' - especially with a fan attached.

[jnarowe]

True, and they do make a bit of noise in the pulse mode. In my particular situation, I wouldn't care about the fan noise. But I think most other reef keepers would.

But using them at 60% means I need a whole lot more pumps to get the same net flow.

[lamarine23]

After reading the other thread I can say their are way too many contributing factors to solely blame this on the vortech pumps. The warning label would have to read as follows:

Do not run pumps at 100% if your room temp is above 80 degrees, not built to appropriate specifications and not cleaned on a regular schedule as pump may contribute to acrylic crazing.

I don't want to be a jerk but I can't find a manufacturer that would build me a tank w/ those dims with that thickness of acrylic and give me a warranty.

I have a customer with a 540 gallon built with acrylic 3/4" ends and 1" on the front and back with 4 vortechs (going on 7-8 months) and no crazing/cracking of any kind.

I am sorry that you had so much trouble with the pumps, but I have sold over 30 of them and I've sent 2 back for repair. My post here is so that people can keep this into perspective, one in thousands sold has had this problem and just so happens that the aquarium it self is not built to specs.

Good luck on what ever you decide to do, it is still a beautiful setup.

[sherm71tank]

These comments about Jonathan's tank not being built to spec are out of line. You don't know how his tank was built or what kind of bracing was used on it.
And Marc, comparing an aquarium water pump to an oven, car speedometer or tv volume? All the pumps I own run full blast or nothing, except my two vortechs which I am still playing around with. When I do run them at 100% they get VERY hot and my room temperature is almost always 65-70 and sometimes cooler than that so all this chit chat about Jonathans tank room being to blame is crap as well. What about the guys who live in hotter regions like Florida? You think their tank rooms aren't going to get hotter than 80? Give me a break!

[lamarine23]

Easy now....Lets discuss.

Aquariums in general are built with certain thickness of material in order to with stand the pressure.

I didn't ask the manufacturers which thickness they would recommend but they did say that the thicknes used, which is 3/4 (the top panel being over built doesnt do much) and is under all standards of the aquarium industry.

You don't have to get all upset, call some legit companies and see what they say and I'm not talking the local plastic shop either

I live in a particular hot part of California (central) it gets up to 114 degrees sometimes that doesn't mean I let my house get that hot. Common Sense if the ambient air is hotter or is as hot as the pump it won't help cool it any, and of course the pump is going to get hot on the outside that is what it is designed to do, doesn't mean that the acrylic gets that hot.

[jnarowe]

hmmm. ambient temp. averages 78F and the pumps run at an external temp. of 135F - 145F with spikes above 150F...so how do you figure that "Common Sense if the ambient air is hotter or is as hot as the pump it won't help cool it any..."?

It's not like my tank room is 135F you know. I realize that there is more than one multiple involved in my particular situation, but when it's all said and done, there is some element of risk running Vortechs on acrylic. And it has been stated by an authority on using acrylic in our application that the working temp. of acrylic is reduced due to the stress of having pressure applied to it, regardless of its thickness.

That seems pretty straight forward to me. His statement that when under stress, ie. filled with water, the working temp. is actually around 140F rather than the spec. of 180F. I can visit any number of Vortech owners and get external temps. above 130F with ambient temps. below 70F.

So what we have found out is that when certain elements are combined, there is an increased risk of failure. Maybe I should do a poll and find out what the average temp. of a Vortech is? Or would that not fit into your agenda?

[sherm71tank]

Well, I don't have an "agenda". I like the pumps alot as a matter of fact and will probably get at least one more for my 90 but that doesn't change how hot they run. Oh, and I'm not upset :)

[lamarine23]

*Evil Laugh* Yes my agenda to take over the world by means of the vortech pump.

Come on dude get over it.

The pump (heat sink) is not in direct contact with the acrylic, in fact there should be a rubber gasket.

Look I just want people to have all the info so they can make there own judgement on how safe the product is, I won't risk being sued by a client on a product that I didn't believe in. And I do believe!

[lamarine23]

sherm glad your not mad and we can discuss this out in the open.

Jesse

[jnarowe]

So when you visit a "client's" system and feel their Vortechs, they don't feel warm or hot?

[lamarine23]

I didn't say that, they are hot but not to the point that I can't keep my hands on them. Like I said though that is the heat sink which is designed to draw the heat outward it is not the actual temp of the tank/acrylic.

[lamarine23]

I also have two in my store...I can turn those up for a day and check to see how hot the acrylic feels tomorrow. One problem that I did run into was the melting of the middle portion of the gasket becuase it was rubbing but all I did was cut out a hole in the center and the pumps definetly ran cooler after that. That is only in the 540 gallon because it did not utilize the spacer and the magnet is in direct contact with the gasket.

[jnarowe]

Yup, I did the same thing. I had a horrible time with rubbing in the beginning and Eco-Tech and I surmised that was the cheif cause of the early crazing.

But I have to say that I think when using these on thicker panels without the spacer, that more heat is transferred to the glass. Recently I got one back from Eco-Tech that had a new kind of gasket. It seemed to be some sort of neoprene, and this gasket is not doing well. It is very soft from the heat.

Do you have an infrared thermometer at the store? I realize that they are not the most accurate measuring device, but after all I have been through, I feel they are a very important part of my tank support equipment.

It would be interesting to find out what your external temps. are. And I wonder if Eco-Tech has any temp. grid that correlates external temp. with internal temp. That's a key question I have had for some time now.

[lamarine23]

I don't have an infared therm but I'm going to do some research to see if I can find some type of thermometer that can fit between the west and dry side. It would have to be somthing micro, like at the end of a needle of sorts. I do have a NIST certifide temp probe that I calibrate all of the other temp probes off of.

[lamarine23]

or flat

[jnarowe]

I would like to see what you come up with. I think the infrared ones are now common enough that they can be bought at HD.

[sherm71tank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11358176#post11358176 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe


Do you have an infrared thermometer at the store? I realize that they are not the most accurate measuring device

I've seen you post this a few times now. Where are you coming up with this at? As far as I know (from an industrial machine standpoint where I use non contact voltmeters, IR rpm gauges etc.) IR thermometers are accurate within a degree or two provided the measurement is taken reasonably close to the target with higher end IR thermometers being very accurate.

[jnarowe]

well, just based on the fact that when I use mine, the temp. readings change so I take an average of several readings to feel more confident about the number.

[sherm71tank]

I should have known you would do that :reading: taking three readings and then averaging is a very scientific approach to most anything!

[jnarowe]

yes, I do that with Vodka too. :rolleyes:

[sherm71tank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11358825#post11358825 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
yes, I do that with Vodka too. :rolleyes:

You should save that nonsense for your own thread! :lol:

[jnarowe]

sorry. forgot where I was...

[mpdharley]

jnarowe -- How long were you running the pumps before you started to see crazing/rubbing?

I have a 6'x4'x2', 3/4" acrylic tank that I built and am running three pumps on it. I have taken the pumps off and the acrylic feels a little warmer, but only by a couple of degrees (guess).

So far, I'm not seeing any issues and plan on continuing to run the pumps. However, it never hurts to keep an eye on things. So, any time line or other warning signs you can provide would be great. I figure I'll add it to the other checks I do with the tank.

Mike

[lamarine23]

mpdharley,
thank you for posting....I would like to hear from other members that are using the pumps on 3/4 acrylic and see what they have experienced. I also do not feel the acrylic reaching those high temps but I will try to back that up with some actual numbers and temp numbers for operating the pumps at 100% from the heat sink.

I think I read somewhere that the crazing happened soon after he put the pumps on but the cracks where recently noticed. Please correct me if I am wrong jnarowe.

Jesse

[jnarowe]

I can't remember. The initial crazing happened fairly soon I believe. I could probably look through emails and PMs to see the exact time frame, but I doubt that will help you in any meaningful way.

[mpdharley]

Thanks, that's probably good enough. I've been running two of them for two weeks and the third for about a week. For now, I'm going to check them every couple of days, then add the check to my weekly maintenance.

[reefsafe]

I recommend you check it when you clean your wetside, which should be done ever few weeks.

[mpdharley]

I'll have to go back through the docs, I had forgotten that you were supposed to clean the wet side, thanks!

Wonder what else I forgot <G>

[reefsafe]

No worries. What I did was buy an extra wet side. It is very convenient to swap one out and let the other soak in vinegar.

[sherm71tank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11363430#post11363430 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mdrumm
I recommend you check it when you clean your wetside, which should be done ever few weeks.

You really don't think people are going to clean their pumps every 2 or 3 weeks do you?

[mpdharley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11364302#post11364302 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mdrumm
No worries. What I did was buy an extra wet side. It is very convenient to swap one out and let the other soak in vinegar.

Interesting thought, may have to do that later. One of the advantages of taking down my closed loop is that it and my return pump were both Darts. That gives me a spare for my return now. One of the things I want to do better with this tank is the maintenance on the physical equipment.

[melev]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11364334#post11364334 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sherm71tank
You really don't think people are going to clean their pumps every 2 or 3 weeks do you?

I don't, but if I did they'd always look brand new and stay more invisible to me. I like them clean and black, but I think I clean them every 60 days or so.

[sherm71tank]

I shouldn't speak for everyone but I know I'm not cleaning it unless it REALLY needs it. I agree they do look nicer clean though.

[reefsafe]

You really don't think people are going to clean their pumps every 2 or 3 weeks do you?

do i think everyone changes their water on a weekly basis? do i think everyone tests their water every week? no.

But i do. I like my aquarium to be in top notch so I keep up with the maintenance. If you plan it out it doesnt take that much time. especially with an extra wetside.

[sherm71tank]

mdrumm, if you do weekly water changes and test your water every week you are more dedicated than I am. Good for you!

[reefsafe]

I do what I can :)

I try to automate as much as possible...if only i could automate the testing i would be set!

[mpdharley]

I just checked all three of my pumps and I still don't see any crazing or other issues. Directly underneath the pump, the acrylic is a little warmer than the surrounding acrylic, but not much.

Info on my tank and the room conditions:

- The tank is 6' x 4' x 2' and is made out of 3/4" acrylic with a 4" lip all the way around the top and two cross braces (three openings in the top).

- I keep my house at 78 during the summer (NE Florida)

- I have a ceiling fan above the tank that is on a timer and is on whenever the lights are on.

- The tank itself is an open top tank with the lighting suspended from the ceiling.

I haven't updated the pictures lately, but you can see the tank at: http://picasaweb.google.com/mpdharley/ReefTank

I also have the build out thread in my public gallery on Picasa.

Mike

[sherm71tank]

Just wanted to add that lamarine23's (sorry, Weatherson started the thead) thread in CVR was closed for some reason. Something about his business using the Vortech pump on (many) acrylic tanks in the area.

[mpdharley]

Well, I'm confused. Why would a posting about a business using Vortech pumps in the area cause a thread to be closed.

Oh, what's CVR?

[jnarowe]

It was closed because lamarine23's posts were against that board's UA.

[triggerfish1976]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11431628#post11431628 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mpdharley
I just checked all three of my pumps and I still don't see any crazing or other issues. Directly underneath the pump, the acrylic is a little warmer than the surrounding acrylic, but not much.

Info on my tank and the room conditions:

- The tank is 6' x 4' x 2' and is made out of 3/4" acrylic with a 4" lip all the way around the top and two cross braces (three openings in the top).

- I keep my house at 78 during the summer (NE Florida)

- I have a ceiling fan above the tank that is on a timer and is on whenever the lights are on.

- The tank itself is an open top tank with the lighting suspended from the ceiling.

I haven't updated the pictures lately, but you can see the tank at: http://picasaweb.google.com/mpdharley/ReefTank

I also have the build out thread in my public gallery on Picasa.

Mike

Your tank thickness is on spec. per the dimensions so I am not surprised that it hasn't crazed.

[mpdharley]

I can tell ya, I hate to have to rebuild it! It was a pain the first time :-)

[lamarine23]

sherm71tank,
don't try and undermine my comments because I sell vortech pumps (which I had already stated in this thread), in fact I think that would make my comments weigh in that much heavier seeing how I have a lot more experience with them and the fact that I have a lot more to lose if something goes wrong with these pumps at a clients home or office.

The thread that was closed has no relevance here I don't know why you even brought it up.

[mcrist]

I have one Vortech on a 3/4 inch acrylic wall with no issues and it’s been in the same spot for over a year. I am thinking on adding more so I am interested in the outcome of this discussion.

[reefsafe]

as long as your tank is built with the appropriate thickness acrylic you shouldn't have a problem

[sherm71tank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11449868#post11449868 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lamarine23
sherm71tank,
don't try and undermine my comments because I sell vortech pumps (which I had already stated in this thread), in fact I think that would make my comments weigh in that much heavier seeing how I have a lot more experience with them and the fact that I have a lot more to lose if something goes wrong with these pumps at a clients home or office.

The thread that was closed has no relevance here I don't know why you even brought it up.

Sorry I missed this. I brought it up because you install the pumps on tanks commercially and have a business interest at stake. I am happy your experience with them has been good.

[mpdharley]

I just checked all three of mine, running for about two months on 3/4" acrylic. I didn't see any problems.

[bureau13]

I've got two on 3/4" acrylic walls...one has been there for a while now, the other only a a couple months, but neither are showing any ill effects. The pump motors themselves used to get fairly hot before I got the WWD and put them in pulse.

I do run them full out, btw.

jds

[rmougey]

I have a 60" 120 gallon made with 3/8" plex that has had a Vortech in the same place for about 18 months. There are no signs of wear, crazing or cracking. I had mine running about 3/4 speed prior to the WWD. It also runs cooler using the WWD in Reef Crest mode.

-Rob