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nemofish2217
12/10/2007, 11:30 AM
I have decided (i think) to take some of the sand out of my biocube to help deal with nitrate issues. Right now i have about 2" of sand. My question is, if i take like half of it out am i going to be looking at a possible spike? Would i be better off stirring it? Or should i stir one area at a time over a period of time and then slowly remove it? thanks for the help...

Sk8r
12/10/2007, 11:35 AM
Leave it be for right now. Let's discuss this. Kicking up that sandbed could crash your tank within hours.

Sand is usually not the culprit...safer to add one 1" more, assuming you have 1 lb of rock per gallon water. Do you have a nassarius snail in there? A good idea to have a nice big one. A good idea to have bristleworms. They would be cleaning your sand.

Give us a detailed description of your tank, size, photo if possible, plus how your water flow is set up, where it goes, what it goes into, any sponges, filters, bioballs, etc. What are you keeping in it, what's its history, how old, etc.

nemofish2217
12/10/2007, 11:52 AM
sorry, i posted about my nitrates in the reef discussion forum but figured i would get a better response geared more for a nano here... okay here goes....
nitrates are currently at about 25 ppm. The tank is about 8 months old.

I religiously do 2-2.5 gal water changes weekly.

I have about 20 lbs LR.

Ihabitants are percula, sixline,ywg,fire shrimp, pistol shrimp. I have a few astrius, 1 turbo, and a blue leg hermit...thinking about getting another. I have a few nassarius snails but they are very small. Thought about a sand sifting star but heard the ycould destroy a sandbed...

I have the stock pump from the biocube (136 gph). I also have three MJ 400s in the tank for circulation. (i'm thinking of upgrading one of the 400s to either a 600 or 900). They are positioned in the left corner, middle, and right corner. i'll try to get a crappy pic.

No bioballs, i have heater in the first chamber, and in the second, from bottom to top, LR rubble, carbon, chemi-pure, purigen, and filter floss which gets changed out about every 4 days. i do not have the blue filter pad in the third chamber.

I just started using a turkey baster to blow off the rocks after i saw my nitrates were a bit high... i then noticed how much crap had settled on the rocks.

Every thing had been going great until a month or so ago when i noticed my zoas did not want to open all of the way. I don't really have a ton of algea, just the usual film on the glass after a few days and a very limited amount of bryopsis looking stuff...
Thanks for any help you guys can give...i'm thinking maybe the 3 MJ 400s are not strong enough or giving me enough flow. i would love to put chaeto in the back but i don't know how i could get a light back there...

Here is a pic so you can kind of see the setup.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i211/souletrain2006/Fulltankshot.jpg

nemofish2217
12/10/2007, 11:53 AM
this was before i started noticing problems....

nemofish2217
12/10/2007, 11:54 AM
also, what would cause the halimeda to die off? I thought it really only depended on good calcium which i have (400ppm). Could this means some other nutirent is lacking?

sayn3ver
12/10/2007, 12:13 PM
well, algae needs nitrate, phosphate, possibly some potassium(i don't know much about the algae's biology) and with that species, calcium. Maybe your magnesium or alkalinity is off.

martinphillip03
12/10/2007, 12:51 PM
Do you have a protein skimmer?

Marty

Sk8r
12/10/2007, 01:02 PM
Your rockwork is excellent. I'd wonder if you have quite enough sandbed: the nassarius ought to keep it clean enough in terms of larger detritus. 3" is enough to let it 'layer' and process nitrate. [you can put washed sand in using a tube connected to a fat funnel and not get it all over]. If you can get that sandbed in better health and put IJ the floss and other impediments to flow only when you notice significant particulate you might find an improvement.

Also---are you changing out that carbon filter bag every week? Carbon WILL release stuff back once it saturates.


Test your alkalinity levels. Probably ok, with cal of 400.
Get about 10-20 3-4" bristleworms...oops, rats, you've got a sixline. Get another, larger, nassarius snail and hope it can get under that rockwork.

What are you feeding? If large solid bits or breaks down to large solid bits, try switching to cyclopeeze, which is very fine and blows out of places more easily.

If you do add sand, do it patch at a time, waiting a few days in between, so you don't get wild algae growth.

nemofish2217
12/10/2007, 01:33 PM
So you are suggesting adding some sand? All i have been hearing is to take some out...

I ususally change the carbon out every month...i thought it was good for a month? maybe not...

I feed a variety...pellets, cyclopeeze, mysis, and a home-made seafood mixture all not at the same time or same day of course.

I have started to feed more pellets then anything because believe it or not the clown pretty much refuses to eat any frozen food i put in there, ahe only goes for the pellets. The fire shrimp/goby/hermit crabs usually get the left overs...i ususally turn off the pumps when i feed.

So is a sand sifting star a bad idea? and what about increasing the flow?

nemofish2217
12/10/2007, 01:36 PM
what if i just added chaeto? would that help the nitrate issue?

mfp1016
12/10/2007, 02:20 PM
No, carbon should be changed very often on small tanks. Most carbon filters have a pump rating of at least 150 gph. On a 12 gallon tank, that will turn the water over 12 times. So on small tanks, the carbon filter is going to see dirty water more often. Minimum accepted rule is 2 weeks. Most people don't run carbon on nanos because they dont want to deal with changing it out. I recommend adding sand so that you have a good 2" to 3" layer of sand. Everytime you do a WC, vacuum off the top 1/8" of sand so its free of detritus. Then add a bit of fresh (non-live) argonite sand.

In regards to nitrates, be sure to clean out areas where detritus can build up, especially in the back chambers of nanos. Check your return pump area and other chambers and do water changes with the siphon hose back there and try to get some of that debree out.

Halimeda is a finicky macroalgae and is not as recommended as chaeto. Your halimeda could be dieing off for a number of reasons. Its growth is dependent on calcium, not its livelihood.

Just do a the aforementioned and you should be fine. Nassarius snails are good and hardy. I think your flow is more than fine, I only run the return pump and a Koralia. If you want to add chaeto, I recommend buying a ViaAqua PolyReactor ($30) and putting chaeto in there. The reactor will come with tubing and a pump, all you need is chaeto. The reactor is meant to be a phosphate fluidized bed but you can put chaeto in it since its clear. I also like this style because I have my reactor plumbed into the false back so it flows directly into the tank, that way the fish/coral get nice fat juicy copepods that haven't been through a pump.

mfp1016
12/10/2007, 02:22 PM
Also, if you feed frozen food, take out some water and put the cube in the water in a small container. Let the cube defrost a bit so you can see some cyclops or rotifers in the water. Then pull the cube out. This lets you really control how much you feed. I feed with this method maybe 3 times a week.

Sk8r
12/10/2007, 02:43 PM
Your month-old carbon bags may be contributing nitrate. WHen 'old' they put back what they took out...most things like phosban don't; carbon does.

nemofish2217
12/10/2007, 03:09 PM
ok, cool, well i did not know that.... same for chemi-pure?

nemofish2217
12/10/2007, 03:12 PM
and what about a light for the chaeto?

Sk8r
12/10/2007, 03:19 PM
I'm not sure about chemi-pure, but if it's carbon/charcoal, I'd say it's exactly the same.

Light for cheato: in my 20g fuge I use a very small 13w HO tank light. Only about 8" long, double bulb. Other people use clip-on lights from Home Depot.

Saltwaterstart
12/10/2007, 03:44 PM
How big is your sixline?

I have one that is about 3/4" long, and multiple bristleworms (the main breeder is now over 2ft long :eek1: ). I have seen hundreds of the little guys flit past my sixline without him even going after them. Then again, he's about as fat as a horse (for his size).

Adding a lot of bristleworms at one time may increase your chances of getting them to establish, but you'd have to add about a hundred or so.

Other than that, add a little bit of sand every week, and try to get your sandbed upwards of 3-4".

Always adding a little bit of macro works too. I have a ton of macro living in my display, and I rarely ever get over 1ppm of readable nitrate.

Rosseau
12/10/2007, 05:01 PM
The nitrate should be consumed over time (quite rapidly actually) and will decrease unless it is continually being added.

I skimmed most of the responses so my meager input may be nothing new. Though I think reducing the ultimate source (feeding) is a good place to start.


I had my tank crack open when it was about 3 months old. I have about a 1.5" deep sand bed. I transferred everything to a new tank and was asking around whether or not it was safe to use my old sand.

I ended up using it and really didn't have any spikes in any of my parameters. Although.. your tank is about 2x as old, so.....

nemofish2217
12/10/2007, 06:56 PM
i might try some bristleworms....where can i get a bunch of them? Also, so you guys are sure that adding sand will help my tank? I guess im just used to hearing stories about deeper sand beds crashing tanks....

nemofish2217
12/10/2007, 06:57 PM
also, i think i am going to try chaeto... i used to swear by that stuff when i had my 90 gallon....

nemofish2217
12/12/2007, 10:56 AM
UPDATE: I am going to add some sand today....also, where can i find a large number of bristleworms? I'm not sure if my LFS would have any they would want to sell....

Sk8r
12/12/2007, 11:11 AM
Too deep a bed can crash a tank (5-6" is too deep).
nassarius snails go subsurface and clean out pockets of detritus.

Usually your lfs can turn up a couple of worms just by lifting rocks. I'd be scandalized if they charged you for them, but if they've been stocking wrasses, they could be short of them. Usually they hitchhike in on rock. Tell them just keep their eye out for a couple for you if they can't find them. If you know anybody else in the reefing hobby, they could be a source.

nemofish2217
12/12/2007, 11:36 AM
okay...thanks...

nemofish2217
12/12/2007, 12:32 PM
okay, so i must have somehow overlooked that post in which you said to add the sand in patches....i added not a ton, but i would say about a half an inch or so to pretty much the whole tank...is algea the only thing i will have to worry about or do i need to take some out so i don't get a spike?

Sk8r
12/12/2007, 12:39 PM
OH---well, no, you should be pretty well ok, give or take a little hair algae, but it should be limited to the sandbed. Now would be a good time to add a couple more nassarius---they'll stir it just very gently, which will help carry bacteria to the favorable level of the sandbed for their action.

WHen making any radical changes to your system, start testing at least once every 2 days, if not every day, if not 2x a day if you start detecting something going on. You've got Amquel in case you get ammonia: use it ONLY if you get ammonia. And otherwise just watch your levels, keep the water as spot-on as you can in all parameters. You've removed the old carbon, right? Stand by to add new, also, if you get ammonia or if your corals start looking unhappy. Watch your ph and alkalinity. All things working well, you should be pretty well on track in a month.

nemofish2217
12/12/2007, 12:54 PM
okay! thanks for all of the help.... like i said i already have about 4 or 5 nassarius snails, and i have already seen them trucking around in the sand...I ditched the old carbon i think yesterday, and i refilled the bag with fresh, so it should be there in case things start acting weird...I think after this thing settles down i'm not even gonna run it anymore... I might get some Amquel....chemical stuff scares me though....

So, should in about a week or so should i add maybe another 1/2" of sand or leave it where its at now? I would guess total depth now is about 2.25 to 2.5" deep.

Saltwaterstart
12/12/2007, 02:34 PM
Also for emergencies, I use Cycle by Nutrafin.

It helped me out a ton when I had ammonia and nitrite spikes. It puts more bacteria in the system, and stimulates the existing bacteria to help get rid of the harmful stuff, fast.

Wait about another week or two to be safe, and make sure your levels are okay before adding anymore sand. Don't overdo it either.

A patient reefer will be a happy reefer!

nemofish2217
12/12/2007, 05:01 PM
i picked up a couple of blue legged hermits and a few more nassarius snails... I also inquired about the bristleworms and they said that they would try to hold some out for me but whenever they found them they usually fed them to the arrow crabs...