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Phoenix19
12/12/2007, 11:15 PM
Okay, I inherited what was supposed to be a 29 gallon aquarium. It's a 20 high...surprise,surprise. So I have been debating setting up a saltwater tank for a few months now.

I work at a Petland so I am familiar with saltwater fish, corals, and other invertebrates, but at a certain point my knowledge sort of fails me. Our livestock are not in display tanks, interacting with one another and they are certainly not adults. And information on the internet is contradictory when referring to the sizes certain adult fish will reach.

I would like to know some information about the fish I have been looking at as a possible stocking list for a twenty high.

Here are the fish I was looking at:

What I really want:

False Percula Clownfish (Amphiprion ocellaris), Pygmy or Cherub Angel (Centropyge argi), Firefish (Nemateleotris magnifica), Yellow Clown Goby (Gobiodon okinawae), and Scooter Blenny (Synchiropus stellatus)

Possible alternatives:

Rainford's Goby (Amblygobius rainfordi), Royal Gramma (Gramma loreto), and Banggai Cardinal (Pterapogon kauderni)

Regardless of which fish I chose I do want this to be a reef aquarium, with a few corals, snails and shrimp, a little caulerpa, and possibly an anemone like a bubble. Basically what are your thought on these fish. How well they would mix, how well they won't mix...reef safe, not reef safe, adult sizes, personal feelings, etc...

As far as the set up goes. I plan on starting the tank with 10 lbs of CaribSea livesand and 15 lbs of aragonite and several pieces of live rock. I will also be adding marine BioSpira to help with the cycle. I am going to be using a SeaClone 100 protein skimmer. As far as lighting goes I am still undecided. I don't have the money for the really expensive lights and was thinking about using a ZooMed Reef-Sun bulb.

So basically I would love to have opinions, nice suggestions, helpful hints, etc on my current brainstorm. Thank you in advance. If there are any other things you need to know about the tank let me know and I will try to get the info up.

Phoenix19
12/13/2007, 12:22 AM
Forgot to mention that with the clownfish I would really like a pair, but that may not be reasonable/feasible in a tank that size. Opinions on that would be nice too. I worry about the bioload with that many fish (6 total) although one is very small and potential aggression of the female towards the male and the pair towards the rest of the livestock in a tank that small...

Phoenix19
12/13/2007, 12:30 AM
My brain is fried from work and I can tell I need to go to sleep. My posts usually aren't so incomplete. Another fish I was thinking about was the Neon Goby (Gobiosoma oceanops). They are just very small and I enjoy watching them at the store. Not much of a bioload either.

Phong33
12/13/2007, 01:46 AM
You will need to upgrade your lights if you plan on keeping corals. I'm pretty sure the bulb you're talking about is just a NO tube which isn't enough for anything. For lights, I'd suggest going with T5. As for the fish, they will all get along but I would say thats a very big bioload for a small tank.

sm51498
12/13/2007, 11:05 AM
scooter Blennies tend to be difficult to feed, They have the same feeding requirements as a mandarin, so do your home work and make sure you either provide the correct food or find one that will eat frozen. As far as stocking I would just get the pair of clowns and one other small thing like the neon goby or the yellow goby, the angel is an option as well but isn't necessarily reef safe. 20 gallons just isn't big enough to support a lot of fish. Better lighting is not an option, like phong33 said to keep any corals you will need better lighting, t-5's are cheap and good lights.

Phoenix19
12/13/2007, 10:31 PM
I'm not super worried about feeding the scooter. I know they can be hard to feed, but every once in a while we do get one in that will eat frozen food. And I know where I can get some live brine shrimp to feed it if I can't get it to eat frozen.

I have heard that the angel may nip some corals. Are there any off the top of anyone's head that I should avoid if I get one? I think they are a beautiful fish but would hate to buy a nice coral and watch it get eaten. They are my favorite fish right now and I would really like one.

In addition to the live rock and protein skimmer I am going to be running a simple HOB filter. Does it still look like I am going to have a nightmare trying to keep that water parameters good? I really don't want to fight with the tank all the time. I will be doing regular water changes as well, probably 30% a week. But that may not be enough either.

Theoretically if I was going to have the six original fish I want (Pygmy Angel, pair of False Percula Clownfish, Yellow Clown Goby, Red Scooter Blenny, and a Firefish) in what order would you add them to the tank?

Does anyone have an internet source with T-5 bulbs for a good bulb?

Also any thoughts on an anemone for a tank like that small? I was thinking of a small bubble anemone.

NanoReefWanabe
12/13/2007, 10:40 PM
30% a week will likely be overkill...but there again depends on bioload..i only do 20% every two weeks..but again every tank is different...

i have 2 false percs, a 6line and a chromis in my 20...i think you are fine with 4 fish..but is a max...i added my last fish at 1 year too..give the tank time..

T5's or MH

dogstar74
12/13/2007, 11:02 PM
I have a 20H with an Oscellaris Clown, and a Brazillian Flameback Pygmy angel. i love the set up. But I was trying to get away with only water changes. I was also not getting away with it. I think if you are planning to have fish in a system this size, you will need a skimmer. I got the remora. And without starting any debates here about the type of skimmer, etc. I can tell you that my algea problem is nearly gone, and I would highly recommend a skimmer. That's just my .02. I know some get away without using one. But I've had this 20H for 4 years, and I've tried many types of configurations, and I've never been as happy with how it's running than I am right now. That's just my .02.

Good luck.
Aaron.

dogstar74
12/13/2007, 11:07 PM
No anemone will stay small enough for this tank.. Sorry won't happen. I would not put that many fish in a 20H. Two clowns for company, and the angel is what I had. I really wanted a yellow goby or another fish, but after I added the angel, I knew I was done. Just a visceral feeling that I had.
I would add the angel last though. The clowns need to establish themselves.
Also, I had a piece of acrylic cut so that I could put it in the middle of the tank as a divider. I would put the two clowns on one side, and the angel on the other to allow them to acclimate to one another, then one day when they quit chasing shadows, remove the acrylic and allow them to swim together. I've never had a problem since.
Good luck
Aaron

brandon7491
12/14/2007, 10:20 AM
go with a pair of clowns,royal gramma,watchman goby,neon goby.

dont go with the scooter becauase they are a pia to feed,dont go with an angel because this is ur first fish tank and they need the lr to ature a year before adding one also ur tank is too small. upgrade ur lights to t-5s so u can keep some soft/some lps coral. this has the potential to become a really nice set up but just dont rush it. the seaclone skimmer is not a good choice. i would suggest going with an aquac remora protien skimmer with a maxijet 1200 its a very good skimmer and i have one on my 29gallon sps tank. good luck i hope this helps

Phoenix19
12/18/2007, 09:18 AM
I really would like to go with the original stocking list of a pair of false percula clownfish, the pygmy angel, a yellow clown goby, a firefish, and a red scooter blenny. If I did that in what order would you add the fish? I was thinking the yellow clown goby and the fire fish, followed by the pair of clowns, the cherub angel, and then much later the scooter blenny. Obviously I will be checking the water quality so if I see that the tank can't handle as many fish as I want I will stop.

Does anyone have any ideas on easy to care for corals? For the tank I was thinking a few mushrooms, a fox coral, maybe a bubble coral, pulsing xenia, and maybe a few others like a star polyp.

I still love the idea of a small bubble anemone for the clowns. If I do one, I'll put it in first and let it wander till it finds a home, and then I will add the corals so they don't get stung.

lat0403
12/18/2007, 10:15 AM
Why ask what people think of your stocking list when you're not going to listen to them?

The order sounds fine except the last two. You probably can't add anything after the angel. And you need to be careful of the clowns and scooter blenny. My clown eats tons of pods.

Adding the anemone first is probably a bad idea. It's going to need an established tank.


Leslie

dogstar74
12/18/2007, 03:15 PM
I think that in your mind's eye you have a 40 gallon breeder. I really think you over estimate the amount of room that you'll have in this 20H. And if you decide to get that many fish in the tank, then I'd choose corals that love Nitrates. Those would be the best kind.

Anemones don't like nitrates. Again, this tank is too small for your list. You have two options. Get a smaller list, or get a larger tank. Since you are dead set on going with this, then I suggest a larger tank. It's not that much bigger of an investment to just jump up to a 29 gallon, or a 40 breeder. But hey I've only had a 20H that I've been fighting for space for 4 years, what do I know.

Good luck

Phoenix19
12/18/2007, 07:12 PM
I am listening. I didn't say I was going to run out and buy all six fish and put them in the tank the first night and the next day run out and get a bunch of corals and an anemone and for good measure pour a bottle of ammonia in the tank.

I said that was what I wanted. And we all know what you want isn't something we always get. I will be testing the parameters of the water at least twice a week, and will only be adding fish if it is safe for them. If I can't get my water parameters "good" I won't be adding any fish. Believe me, I don't want to kill the fish.

And when I said I was going to add the anemone first I meant that it would be added after the fish and before the corals. I will be doing this very slowly, so I'm not going to rush into this. This is all just in the planning stages. Other than the aquarium. I already have it and a filter. So 20 high it is.

Anyone have any thoughts on anything else, like good corals, lights, protein skimmers, etc...

dogstar74
12/19/2007, 12:22 AM
Sorry for the petty response. Sounds like you have done a little homework, and you have a plan.

Lights=This will depend on what you want to keep as far as corals go. But for the health of the anemone, you may want to jump straight to Metal Halide lights. A 150 pendant would suffice, but I have longed for a 250 over my 20H for some time. I'm just really itching to get a 20K 250W Radium bulb and see what colors I can coax out of my corals. That being said, you may have a hard time keeping it cool with this light, so watch out. Currently I have 150 W of VHO, and 24W Single T5 for actinic. But my lights just barely pass. I'm sustaining, but I'm not getting fabulous growth on my corals.

Corals=Well that's a matter of opinion. If you're gonna do the sps then that will take more of an investment in Time, Money, Equiptment, chemicals etc. If you're just getting your feet wet in Salt water, then you can gleen a lot of joy out of some gentle softies and they are more forgiving with light, chemistry and water conditions too. Some nice ones would be any of the Zoas, Shrooms, Leathers (although they get big), Star polyps, and xenia species.

Protein Skimmers= Search about the Remora skimmers. It's bound to come up. It's a pretty good skimmer for a modest investment in money. Sure the Deltec may be a great skimmer, but for crying out loud, 600 bones is a lot for a piece of equiptment on a 20. There will be a fierce debate about the Remora skimmer, but from my experience, it will work really good if you are diligent about cleaning the collection cup daily. I use an old toothbrush, and just scrub the crap out of the collection cup. Then it will work like a charm for about 12-18 hours. Then it needs to be cleaned again. It's just like brushing my teeth now. Just do it daily, and you'll have good results from this skimmer. It will be too loud to use in a quiet room though. So don't plan to sleep next to it. But come to think of it, I don't know of any kind of HOB skimmer that would be quiet enough to sleep next to.

I'll make a final suggestion, then shut up... The best 20 bucks you'll spend on this tank will be, "The New Marine Aquarium" by Michael S. Palletta. It's a short read, and if you stick to the basics, you'll be happier, as will your fishes. It's the best 20 bucks I have spent on this project, and I still refer back to it from time to time.

Good luck,
Aaron

Phoenix19
12/19/2007, 12:10 PM
Thank you for your sincere help. It really means alot. You have truly helped me. I will look into the remora skimmer and see how I like it.

As far as corals things we usually get in the store are mushrooms, zooanthids, button polyps, star polyps, xenia, hammer coral, bubble coral, fox coral, frogspawn, torch coral, plate and long tentacled plate coral, colt coral, leathers, and maybe few others. Obviously ones like the hammer are out, because I'm not going to give him 8 inches of space in a tank that small so he won't sting anything. So I guess that majority of what I will try is going to be soft and LPS(?) although I don't know if you would classify the bubble and the fox as LPS. I think they may be just stony...*shrugs*

Thank you again for your help.

dogstar74
12/19/2007, 04:37 PM
Any of those corals would do with Moderate lighting, i.e. Does not require a Metal halide. And they are all very good beginners corals.

A word on Star polyps, some people swear by them, and some swear at them. They have the potential of swarming all over your tank and being plague proportions.

to combat this, many people put their stars on a piece of LR that is not connected to the rest. Then if the stars get out of hand you can remove just that rock, as well as they will not cross a sandy barrier. So you can still enjoy them, but they don't become a nuisance.

Good luck with the build, and take lots of pictures! We all love pics!

Phoenix19
12/20/2007, 12:06 PM
lol I hadn't heard that with the star polyps, but I have heard it about Xenia. I was planning on keeping it that way so it doesn't go nuts. Guess I will do the same with the stars. :) I will definitely be taking lots of pics.

jdpierce21
12/20/2007, 07:41 PM
Any pics? I love my Xenia, but it does take over the tank!

Phoenix19
12/21/2007, 10:49 AM
No, no pics yet. This tank is still in the planning stage...well what I'm doing with the tank. I already have the tank and filter so it's not getting any bigger. Hopefully after Christmas I will start setting it up. I've spent quite a bit on everyone's gifts.