Blackfoot lionfish captive care?

[kathainbowen]

A few years back, I fell in love with those little beauties, the blackfoot lionfish (Parapterois heterura). And who wouldn't when faced with one of those guys? Unfortunately, the two that I ordered separately never fared well with two separate incidents of bad shapping and both perished in QT at the store. At the time when I ordered them, there was NO information about them (aside from species and pics- they were even going by the strange name of "Bluefin Dwarf Fuzzy Lionfish" in some circles), and I just couldn't find it in me to potentially keep killing the little guys since it seemed no one had the answers on them (or even knew whether or not they could be kept!).

Now that I'm seeing them kept slightly more often and certainly with far better results that my poor two, the bug has bitten me again. But I'm hobbyist enough to know the extent of my care knowledge and admit.... I'm bedeviled. All the info I see is rather conflicting. Some people say coldwater, others are insisting reef conditions. *exasperation*




Anyone out there on RC have any experience with the blackfoot that they could share? I'd be very grateful to hear your stories. :reading:

[LisaD]

I don't know of anyone that's kept them with long term success (I tried three, including a cool tank) and all died within days or weeks.

They are beautiful fish. I'd like to know if there are successful keepers, and what is the secret to success. But so far, I only know of one hobbiest claiming long term survival of this fish. I've never even seen them in public aquaria.

I am also interested in others' experiences.

[kathainbowen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11375822#post11375822 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LisaD
I don't know of anyone that's kept them with long term success (I tried three, including a cool tank) and all died within days or weeks.

They are beautiful fish. I'd like to know if there are successful keepers, and what is the secret to success. But so far, I only know of one hobbiest claiming long term survival of this fish. I've never even seen them in public aquaria.

I am also interested in others' experiences.

:beer:

Well, welcome and thanks for your info. Mine all died within a week of shipping, despite feeding well. Both my manager and I suspected poor shipping (several things dropped off from both orders) or copper (they were in a system we had been copper treated on the occasion, but several other lionfish species had been in the system after that and thrived. The theory we surmised from it was that blackfoot lionfish couldn't handle copper, while new information suggests otherwise).

Hopefully other people will start coming out to share their own experiences.

[FMarini]

about 1 or 2 yrs back a few shipment came in from the phillipines w/ alot of bluefin lions (never heard of them called blakcfoot), pretty much everyone on this board that purchased them watched them perish. A few LFS here got them in as well, same results.

Only one report i am aware of w/ any success, and by success I mean longer than 6 months.

[justlopin]

Can someone post a picture so I know which lion this is about please....

[kathainbowen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11385534#post11385534 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by justlopin
Can someone post a picture so I know which lion this is about please....

Google is a wonderful thing. :p

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11_03/images/2581_blackfoot1.jpg
From Saltwaterfish.com (blackfoot lionfish) (http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11_03/product_info.php?products_id=2581&parent_category=4&category_search=61&root_parent_id=4)

The animal we're looking at is generally seen as a rather diminutive specimen of the lionfish family, not commonly seen by divers or in the retail trade, usually seen at a range of 2-4" (although, there are many who insist this animal gets to be 8" long). They have a strange behavioral pattern, more nocturnal in nature and preferring to remain partially buried in a fine sand or muck bed during the day before coming out to feed on small fish, shrimp, or other invertebrates at dusk and night. While both the species of the Parapterois genus are found in the Indian Ocean, P. heterura (the blackfoot lionfish) is found as far as the African coastlines to Japan and Indonesia.

The blackfoot lionfish isn't commonly seen in aquarium trade and seem to be really a "specialist's pet." This is due to various factors. They are no where near as hardy nor as popular as the volitan's lionfish or other dwarf lionfish varieties (like the zebra or the dwarf fuzzy). In addition to that, due to their daytime behavior, they are difficult to view in the wild, let alone collect. In truth, most lions of this genus are seen from commercial fishing trawls, dredging them up from their daytime hiding spot. All things considered, it all adds up to an animal rarely seen and seeming rarely kept in hobbyist tanks with much success.

My two perished within a week of arrival on two separate orders. Conditions *seemed* optimal at the time, and both *seemed* to be recovering after poor shipping. They were eating well and showing nice fully (but not overly plump) stomachs. They would go from being perfectly fine the night before to absolutely dead the next day. Were it not for the fact that the company we ordered from had (and still has) a high reputation for dealing only with fish guaranteed not from cyanide capture, I would have suspected that. The only thing we could figure at the time was possibly copper (it was a QT and treatment tank from time to time, so it's highly possibly that some trace copper lingered on).





*still hoping someone will turn up with more info on successful captive care*

[LisaD]

As FMarini said, many of us purchased them and they pretty much all quickly perished. In my case, I kept them in tanks that had never been treated with copper. The lions I bought were from different shipments. Like yours, they fed well, but died quickly.

Until I know the secret of sourcing healthy specimens and providing them with conditions they need for long term survival, I won't be buying this gorgeous fish again. If they lived in captivity, I think they would be THE most popular lionfish. Moderate size, dramatic coloration, cool behaviors. This one's a heartbreaker.

[kathainbowen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11391359#post11391359 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LisaD
Until I know the secret of sourcing healthy specimens and providing them with conditions they need for long term survival, I won't be buying this gorgeous fish again. If they lived in captivity, I think they would be THE most popular lionfish. Moderate size, dramatic coloration, cool behaviors. This one's a heartbreaker.

That's actually precisely why I stopped ordering them after the first two specimens (from two different shipments like yours), both died. It just didn't feel right to keep doing that to the little guys when there wasn't any information out there to point to a logical solution to whatever problems they were having in our tanks. Like I said, there didn't even seem to be any concensus on a common name at the time, nor any really concrete information about their care.

It seems like that's the still the case now, and, like you said, it is truly a real heartbreaker.

[FMarini]

Guys (gals actually)-
i believe the biggest issues w/ this fish is the fact that its a temperature water fish that is collected and handled like a tropical fish, then by the time it reaches our aquariums its already on the death clock. Think catalina goby of lionfish.

Just placing a catalina goby in a cool water tank does not guarentee its survival, it merely prolongs its death. I suspect it must have something to do w/ higher O2 levels of coldwater, but I just don't know. There were 2 posters a yr or so back that were able to keep their bluefin lions for longer than 6 months, one of them claimed he recieved the fish from a private collector who kept it in temperate conditions the whole time.

I had a chance to speak to scott micheal about these fish awhile back, he was telling me he's seen them as far south as the phillipines (they are usually found in japanese waters-cold), but from deep waters. They are a substrate attached fish that digs a pit and protects it and uses the pit as a ambush spot, so again the bottom part of the water column where the coolest waters are.

The only way i would try this fish is if it were collected by a knowlegible collection company who stored this fish in temperate water during collection/shipping and at my LFS.

Lastly, in regards to more info about these fish, last yr one of the issue of KORAL magazine was dedicated to lionfish, and it had an article about bluefins. I don't recall much husbandry info, but it was interesting none the less. Honestly i've not even seen this fish at any public aquarium who has the ability to get temperate water fish, and be successful w/ them

[Ranzan]

awesome looking lion to bad they are handeled like that

[kathainbowen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11392612#post11392612 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FMarini
Guys (gals actually)-
i believe the biggest issues w/ this fish is the fact that its a temperature water fish that is collected and handled like a tropical fish, then by the time it reaches our aquariums its already on the death clock. Think catalina goby of lionfish.

Just placing a catalina goby in a cool water tank does not guarentee its survival, it merely prolongs its death. I suspect it must have something to do w/ higher O2 levels of coldwater, but I just don't know. There were 2 posters a yr or so back that were able to keep their bluefin lions for longer than 6 months, one of them claimed he recieved the fish from a private collector who kept it in temperate conditions the whole time.


See, the 02 content of the water was something I hadn't considered, as blackfoot lionfish kept in among a wide temperature range have been noted to perish as well (from reef heat to coldwater chill, and everything in between), making whatever the critical issue seem really not entirely related to just the temperature.

[FMarini]

Kat--
I will repeat this, because I feel this is the missing key w/ this fish. IMHO-the temp of the water the bluefins are kept in all thru its collection/handling and shipping must be kept temperate (cold). Remember that it takes anywhere from 5days to 2 weeks before a fish leaves the ocean and gets to your door, thats alot of time to be kept like a tropical fish. Esp since most collection sites are designed to house tropical fish- not temperateone, so they just place all fish in warm water.

IMHO, the outcome and survival of this fish has little to do w/ what temp YOUR fish tank is, the time clock of death has already been set in motion due to the inappropiate handling of the fish back in the phillipines or from japanese waters. I agree And yes according to where the fish are found they "appear" to have a wide distribution of ater temps, but again even in the more southerly collection areas, the fish is found on the bottom where the water is the coldest.

Anyway, I am still trying to figure out why a cold waterfish would not do well in wamr water, and the difference between cold vs warm water is the amt of O2 saturation-cold water holds more O2,

[LisaD]

Frank, are you certain the explanation for their poor survival is simply the water temperature from collecting on to LFS?

To extend the analogy with Catalina gobies, then - how do Catalina gobies do if people put them in a temperate tank? (I have never kept them.) I've never heard that they won't make it because of how they've been held prior to purchase. I've seen Catalina gobies in LFS, being held with other tropicals, and looking okay. I understand they will not survive long term if they aren't kept in temperate conditions. However, are they also going to definitely perish (like blue fins) if purchased in apparent good health, then put into a cool tank?

Anyway, I am still trying to figure out why a cold waterfish would not do well in wamr water, and the difference between cold vs warm water is the amt of O2 saturation-cold water holds more O2,

I suppose there could be numerous adaptations to cold temperatures that would make it difficult to survive in warmer waters. I don't think it would *have* to be dissolved oxygen.

[kathainbowen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11396079#post11396079 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FMarini
Kat--
I will repeat this, because I feel this is the missing key w/ this fish. IMHO-the temp of the water the bluefins are kept in all thru its collection/handling and shipping must be kept temperate (cold). Remember that it takes anywhere from 5days to 2 weeks before a fish leaves the ocean and gets to your door, thats alot of time to be kept like a tropical fish. Esp since most collection sites are designed to house tropical fish- not temperateone, so they just place all fish in warm water.

IMHO, the outcome and survival of this fish has little to do w/ what temp YOUR fish tank is, the time clock of death has already been set in motion due to the inappropiate handling of the fish back in the phillipines or from japanese waters. I agree And yes according to where the fish are found they "appear" to have a wide distribution of ater temps, but again even in the more southerly collection areas, the fish is found on the bottom where the water is the coldest.


Ah, I think I misunderstood you at first. I definitely hadn't thought of their collection and handling (out of sight, out of mind), especially considering, like I said, that the success rate has been pretty dismal for both coldwater and warm tanks.

[FMarini]

Lisa-
Nope i do not know why these fish are comming in so poorly. S michaels had mentioned to me that these fish are easy to catch, so i doubt its a cyanide issue. Honestly the fish are temperate water , and I know the collection/holding facilities all use pumped in seawater so its warmer. But it makes no sense why NO body including public aquarium are having any success w/ this fish

[kathainbowen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11399575#post11399575 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FMarini
But it makes no sense why NO body including public aquarium are having any success w/ this fish

Out of curiosity, have many public aquariums tried to keep blackfoots, to your knowledge?

[yikai]

my friend has a blackfoot clown kept >6 months feeding on mysis.

[FuEl]

Yikai, not 6 months yet. Almost there though. I've had a black foot lionfish since October 24 2009. It is my first black foot lionfish I have ever seen & have ever kept. It's been living in my frag tank and doing well. It's even eating frozen mysids and even blended food. Also gets treated to the occasional culled clownfish. Temperature I keep between 26.9 and 27.5 degrees celcius. Reaching 5 months. I guess I am lucky to be able to get a healthy specimen.

Will be installing a dip in coil chiller so I will try to lower the max temperature to 27 degrees celcius. Hopefully I will be able to keep this fellow beyond 6 months. It is one of my favourite fish.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9448/2lions.jpg

[FuEl]

It did'nt come in the best of condition. I got it feeding by using enriched adult live brine shrimp.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4617/img4011s.jpg

It did survive a few rounds of whitespot and some slime like disease (not sure if it was brookynella) but overall it did fine without any treatment. I have never witnessed this fish trying to bury itself in the substrate. Maybe it could'nt as my sand is only a thin layer to cover the bottom.

[FMarini]

Hi Fuel-
Thanks for the contribution. Your photo of the co-habitating dwarf yellow fuzzy and bluefin/blackfoot is outstanding.
The 6 month time point is a good one as most have perished by 3 months. However I am aware of one hobbyist who kept one for almost 9 months, not too many success stories beyond this


I'm hoping the recent influx of bluefoot/blackfins from Cebu and the Philippines fares better than the past shipments. If we are lucky these past fish were handled poorly and it contributed to their untimely demise. If not we'll see alot more of the same

[FuEl]

Hi Frank,

I've never seen any interactions between these 2 species. They just seem oblivious to one another. The yellow fuzzies do interact amongst themselves though. The one in the picture actually caused the another yellow fuzzie to jump out of the tank. First time I had ever encountered a jumping lionfish.

I might have been lucky to get a small specimen that adapts readily. When I got it, it was only around 2.25". Then again, I feed my blackfoot lionfish very very sparingly each time. Cooler water species might have lower metabolic rates that would benefit from small, frequent feedings rather than the usual large, infrequent feedings that tropical fish are accustomed to.

Perhaps some cold water fish adapt better to warmer waters. A shop in Singapore is keeping the Australian blue devil at 26 degrees. It has been doing well around 2 months, without any signs of heat stress usually associated with increased breathing rates.

[namxas]

wow...you're keeping that fish warmer than we run ANY of our tanx, and a full 10*F+ warmer than we're keeping our bluefin. we were actually keeping it at 69*F, but dropped it a couple of degrees to ward off possible bacterial issues. we have also treated it for parasites as well as giving it a round of oral antibiotics.

i can't help but wonder how much your proximity to this fish's collection site has to do with your success, quite a bit, i imagine.

our specimen never came out of the bag from the wholesaler, so at least it wasn't in the LFS's system.

BTW, your yellow fuzzy is awesome-looking.

[FMarini]

Fuel--
In general most folks get these fish to eat- that is never a problem. Most even get them to eat prepared foods readily.
Im wondering since you live in proximity to the collection/shipping site that the fish dont undergo such a rigorous shipping/handling issue. I wish you have great success w/ this fish and teach us that the main reason why these fish perish prematurely in the home aquarium is poor collection/handling practices

Hey Greg-- just saw your post- post, great minds think alike

[namxas]

Fuel--
In general most folks get these fish to eat- that is never a problem. Most even get them to eat prepared foods readily.
Im wondering since you live in proximity to the collection/shipping site that the fish dont undergo such a rigorous shipping/handling issue. I wish you have great success w/ this fish and teach us that the main reason why these fish perish prematurely in the home aquarium is poor collection/handling practices

LOL Frank...GMTA! OK...mine isn't so great, but still... :p

[FMarini]

Greg-- thats beside the point.

I hope Fuel doe get this fish to live at least 1 yr. I'd sleep better at nite knowing that bluefin are extremely poor shippers- that way we can contact the collection sites and shippers and let them know to do a better job, instead of saying dont buy these fish

[FuEl]

I think it might be something to do with the collection locality as well. I believe that mine was caught somewhere around Indonesia, as yellow dwarf lionfish are only known to be from Lembeh Straits. Perhaps specimens from less temperate waters will be more hardy.

[namxas]

Frank,

it wouldn't surprise me if the handling is a huge part of the equation. it's definitely a "head-scratcher" that a fish that is apparently so robust just ups and dies or contracts super fast-moving bacterial infections. our specimen weaned about as fast as i've ever seen a lion wean, and is ALWAYS begging (if it sees us, it begs). one thing Renee and i were just discussing is the fact that maybe the fish should have been put in a super low-traffic area to keep its activity on the lower side (i dunno how much difference that makes, but it was a thought).

i wonder if the shipping/handling thing proves out just HOW one could go about getting the collectors/wholesalers/LFS to listen...

Fuel,

DO keep the reports coming, good or bad...

[FMarini]

Greg--
I believe that handling issues are a problem, but it would reason to believe these issues show up early. Say a stressed poorly handled fish dropping off in a few weeks to 1month. But how do we explain why fish that seems "healthy" just drop between 3 months -- 6 months?

Is that poor shipping as well? Most of us feel that at 4, 5, and 6 months- the fish is established.

Why are there NO long term survivors? these fish are lionfish for pete sake- most of the other family members are hardy as all get out

[namxas]

precisely...

when Fuel mentioned the temp he's running, it REALLY trashed my thinking on the subject, but i'm still gonna run 67*F.

[Stickboy97]

Fuel, do you have a full tank shot or more pics of the yellow? Those fish are quite awesome!

[Eels&Lions]

The black foot lionfish is definitely a beauty to keep. I currently have 8 of them living in my 250gal shallow reef tank. Tank mates are 5 flame wrasses and 4 yellow tangs. I've had 5 for the past 8 months and currently added the last 3 in less then a month. I know they come from cooler waters but my tank temp is kept at 76 degrees and I've had no problems with them at all. I always started them off with live ghost shrimp to get them fattened up and then eventually switched them over to hikari frozen krill. Feeding time usually consist of me feeding each fish with a feeding stick since the wrasses are so quick to eat. Ill try to take some pics and post them up.

[FuEl]

Eight?! I could only wish for more. Have only seen one to date. :(

My aircon compressor came in today. I now set my temperatures to stay between 26-27 degrees celcius.

[namxas]

heyas Eels...how have you been?

i didn't know you were keeping P. heterura. where did you find your fish? i kinda figure we shop in the same places given our proximity to each other.

have you lost any specimens, or is every one you acquired still with you? if you did lose them, were there any signs of the fish's demise (bacterial infection, etc)?

[seahorsedreams]

Hey Greg-- just saw your post- post, great minds think alike

and fools seldom differ :frog:

[seahorsedreams]

Pics please, E&L... or I'm taking a trip to Lawndale.

EDIT: Wait... Eels&Lions.... are you the guy who had all the clams. You came over one time to pick up the invert group buy. Does Jorge ring a bell?

SECOND EDIT: Bahahaha. It IS you... I just looked in your profile. Dood... please share. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1813751). Remember I have pictures of you :lmao:

[Eels&Lions]

Saxman - Yep I have 8 of them. The fish store I go to usually gets them in for me and saves them for me. I honestly see like 1 or 2 a month if I'm lucky. As far as losing specimens, I've lost one specimen but that was about 1.5 years ago due to my tank crashing but then I lost everything in the tank.

As for the 8 I have I havent lost any yet. They're healthy and fat. Out of the 8 I have right now 3 came in with a slight bit of cloudy eye but after 2 weeks of healthy feeding they were back to normal. I'll definitely take pics this weekend and post them up.


Renee!! long time no see! hope all has been good with you.

[FMarini]

yes please---pictures
and please post if your doing anything special w/ these fish, water temps, flow, lighting etc
it would be much appreciated

[namxas]

wow Eels...you're keeping yours a full 10*F higher than we keep ours. :hmm3:

[Eels&Lions]

Yep I keep my tank warm do to the other fishes. I've notice no ill affect with the temp being higher. Only thing I notice with the temp being high is they get hungry faster. As far as flow in the tank I have 4 Vortech MP40w's pushing water with the 2 returns. I noticed the lions like the lower flow areas. My salinity I keep at a consistent 1.025.

[FuEl]

Just received two thumb sized specimens, very heslthy from Cebu. The adventure starts again!

[shse666]

You are a lucky guy. I can't keep anything that won't survive 80 degrees here in Texas. No way to vent hot air outside of our current home and inside temps get warm from June - August.

I like the Blackfoots. Nifty fish!
More photos or vids. :)

It's the only way we Texans get to live vicariously. :)