New RANDY's 2 part

[paradoxycal]

Hi randy sorry if im late on the topic. I've been using a Ca reactor these past few months and it has not been working out lately.

I'm looking forward to going back to randy's two part. But here's the problem. recently dow changed their chemical composition of their Dow Flake to contain elevated levels of boron. Thus dowflake is ruled out.

There are other types of CaCl that im wondering if we can use this and to what proportions to gallon jugs.

Types of CaCl:
-peladow
-Briner's choice - calcium chloride

Has there been any change to the peladow? Also when using peladow is it just 20% less than the DowFlake Proportion with Randy's Ca #1?

I was an active user of DowFlake a few years ago and I was wondering what you thought about the peladow formula.

What other product would you consider using with less impurities and their proportions to a gallon of water?

Randy your help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you so much,
AL

[bertoni]

Peladow is made the same way as the flake, I believe. TwoPartSolutions.com is selling calcium chloride that they claim is okay, and I haven't heard any problems with it reported. The Tetra food-grade products seem to be fine, so the Briner's Choice might be okay. Is that by Tetra?

[paradoxycal]

hmm curious though if theres one more pure CaCL to use rather than the rest. I have no idea as to what proportion to use the CaCl that twopartsolutions.com sells. I just found something on Tetra no idea who they are unless the yare that goldfish food company lol. Briner's choice is another Dow chemical product supposidly its cleaner.

If peladow is made the same way as flake has their recipe increased in boron as well???

thanks for responding jonathan greatly appreciated.

[bertoni]

Yes, I think PelaDow is the same in bromine. I think it's actually bromine that is the issue.

Tetra is a very large producer of CaCl₂:

http://tetrachemicals.com/

[paradoxycal]

if peladow is same in bromine...


what do we use????? and at what proportions? :( arg im lost...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

According to this Dow information, bromide is rising substantially in every Dow calcium chloride product. None are suitable for continual use in a reef aquarium.

http://www.dow.com/calcium/news/August_2005.pdf

You'd need to find a different product line.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I do not know what other brands might be suitable, and what might not.

I think I'll have to put a disclaimer in the the online article.

[paradoxycal]

oh god :( randy what do we do without your 2 part........

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Pay.... :D

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Actually, limewater may be a better option as it is still cheap. :)

[paradoxycal]

b-ionic? :( o gosh....

[paradoxycal]

the 2 part you made was the best thing ever gosh.. :(

[paradoxycal]

:( ...... lost without your 2part randy.. .bionic is so expensive

[oct2274]

i feel bad for twopartsolution.com unless they come come up with an alternative because eventually they will run out of the good stuff. They have great prices on other things as well though.......

[rigleautomotive]

so is the tetra food grade or another grade available in 1 or 2 bag lots and is it acceptable to use it.please say yes

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not know that food grade is necessarily acceptable. The bromide in Dow's food grade rose along with all its other types of calcium chloride. It is the same level as in the new Dowflake.

[rigleautomotive]

randy do you plan on researching this a bit.i know about 100 people that would appreciate it.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, sorry. I'm happy to look at specs, but I don't have time to do experiments.

[rigleautomotive]

thats understandable.if some of us come up with specs that you can look at, approve or disapprove,that is a start in the right direction.i personally do not dose with 2 part solution,i am old school kalk and calcium reactors,but alot of new hobbiests in my reef club use two part.

[AlexB650]

so is the two part no good now, even if I order a batch from 2partsolutions today? i'm very new and unfamiliar when it comes to dosing two part, and was just doing some more reading on it before i ordered. it all sounded so cheap and great. any available alternatives that would be as cheap?

[SkiFletch]

Anybody know if the same is true regarding Prestone Driveway Heat? I'm curious if it is also a Dow product?

And Randy (or someone else), do we know what chemical form of bromine is in the new Dow? I was under the impression that many Halogens were able to evaporate out of solution if let stand long enough. Been a long time since I took Chemistry though :)

[rigleautomotive]

i believe the two part from two part solutions is still good.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11384313#post11384313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Pay.... :D

:lol: Concise and to the point.

[Namyar]

I still have driveway heat that I am using. Hope that doesnt chagne to.

[NanoReefWanabe]

so the 50# bag of DOW i bought 6 months ago is no good now.....ah damnit...what the heck am i going to do now???

at what point do these levels of bromine become unacceptable? as i have been using two part for at least 6 months now...

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11388104#post11388104 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NanoReefWanabe
so the 50# bag of DOW i bought 6 months ago is no good now.....ah damnit...what the heck am i going to do now???

at what point do these levels of bromine become unacceptable? as i have been using two part for at least 6 months now...
It might be good if it came from stocks and was produced before the change.

[gkimble]

What about using a teaspoon of pickle lime to one gallon of ro water. And if your ph gets high just add 1/8th a cup of vinager

[NanoReefWanabe]

pickling lime is the same as kalkwasser...ALK and CAL...

when did the change take place? and how would i find out the production date of my bag of DOW?

[ArtC]

Change took place at the factory 31 December 2005. How long it took to work it's way through the supply chain is something else.

No doubt much of the world's remaining supply has been used to melt ice over the last week :(

Announcement from Dow (affects ALL Dow CaCl2 products)
http://www.reefwerks.com/media/August2005.pdf

I don't know what Tetra food-grade costs, but I found reagent-quality at $5/lb in bulk online at:

http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog_name=Chemicals&product_id=5561538

I'd think Tetra would be less than that, but $5/lb with no worries isn't bad either.

[Mavrk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11388104#post11388104 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NanoReefWanabe
so the 50# bag of DOW i bought 6 months ago is no good now.....ah damnit...what the heck am i going to do now???

at what point do these levels of bromine become unacceptable? as i have been using two part for at least 6 months now...

According to the press release you can look at the lot number. If it has a "U" or a "PC" then it is not good to use. The problem is that this desination was only in effect until the end of 2006.

I'd say you are better off ordering from twopartsolution or finding another alternative as suggested above.

I hear great things about b-ionic even though the price is higher.

[rleechb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11381994#post11381994 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
Peladow is made the same way as the flake, I believe. TwoPartSolutions.com is selling calcium chloride that they claim is okay, and I haven't heard any problems with it reported.

Has anyone heard any problems with tanks using later versions of Dowflake?

[Scooter12ga]

Has anybody been able to tell if Prestone Driveway Heat is affected by this as well?

[bertoni]

The change affected all Dow calcium chloride products.

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11384320#post11384320 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Actually, limewater may be a better option as it is still cheap. :) I use limewater. Set it up in a fashion similar to your description of your set up in your article except for the pump. I was able to get a used liter meter at a reasonalbel price and use it. I also use a calcium reactor and the two work very well toghether. I was able to figure this out with the help of your articles. Thankyou.:)

[tmz]

Prestone Driveway Heat is manufactured by DOW for clarification.

[Scooter12ga]

Thanks for the clarification. This seems highly impacting to tons of reef keepers. I vote to Sticky.

Also since this change apparently happened back in Dec 2005, why are we just now hearing about it? I've been using Driveway Heat all year and haven't seen any huge impacts.

What should the specific impacts be?

[kinerson]

I have been told by some chemistry moderators on other website's that the Tetra line "should" be a safe alternative. The way they process there Calcium Chloride is different then Dow's which means much less Bromide levels according to there sales rep. Levels are even lower then the original Dow.

I have spent many hours looking for the Tetra product and have come to the conclusion that at this time it is extremly difficult to locate. The "food Grade" that tetra makes will not be available much longer and is 10-20x's more expensive according to a Tetra sales rep (not an option IMO). I have spoke to a few reefers that are using some misc Tetra products but it's to soon to tell. Even if it works it is very hard to find unless you want a pallet. One guy found some Tetra at a pool store.

I have found a product called Kemira from a local hardware store which is now owned by Tetra and is suppose to be a Tech grade. Again I have been told by other moderaters from other websites that this "should" be safe. I just mixed up my first gallon and noticed the color is tannish color instead of white. I'm not sure what to think of it.

Greg

[oct2274]

agreed, this should be a sticky with the word warning in front of it. as far as the tetra product being safe do you have a full break down of of it's makeup so that maybe someone here could determine if it is a good alternative and that there aren't other unsafe elements?

[kinerson]

There are a number of Tetra calcium chloride products. I believe Randy mentioned earlier in this thread that although he's to busy to perform experiments with the different products, he is willing to look over some spec sheets.

Also, two part solutions sent me an e-mail saying thay are aware of the situation, they have alot of the older Dow product in reserves, and when it is used up they have a supior product lined up. I asked if the product was in the Tetra line but they never responded. I'm sure they would rather not say because of buisness/profit reasons.

Greg

[lecher]

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/22679

[kinerson]

Lecher- Do you currently use this? I have heard that there are only two or three main calcium chloride producers, Dow and Tetra for sure, and possibly a third. I was told this by Tetra (they were not sure of a third but made it sound like it's possible). If this is true it's possible that this tech grade of Calcium Chloride comes from Dow (most do)and may no longer be safe. Just a thought.
Greg

[lecher]

I have some but have only used a small amount of it. My kalk reactor and water changes maintain my alk and ca levels for the time being. The directions state that it is for use in recirculating aquaculture systems, so I would think that it is safe and have seen no ill effects when I did use it. I was planning to use it when my alk and ca demands increase to more than my kalk can provide. If CaCl is going to be difficult to obtain I may buy a Ca reactor.

[NanoReefWanabe]

huh...i have been using my dow flakes for a good 6 onths no with from what i cant tell no ill effects...

is there a way to test for bromide, bromine levels in our tanks?

i would be curious..

[kinerson]

Nano- It's very likely that your Dowflake is the 2006 batch or earlier. If this is the case there is need to worry.
Greg

[kinerson]

I mean no need to worry :)

[Shouse94]

Agreed, I would be curious too. This thread needs to to be a sticky. A lot of people are using Randy's 2-part and they need to be warned!

[TracyZeuner]

I am using the stuff from twopartsolutions and am also curious if there is a test for the bromide. This hobby is expensive enough. I dont think I can take another hit in my pocket book

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am not aware of a suitable kit for bromide in reef tanks.

FWIW, I wish we knew more about bromide depletion rates in reef tanks. It might be fine to use the new Dowflake, especially in tanks with macroalgae that likely use a lot of bromide, but I just cannot recommend it without seeing some real data.

[Bous]

What are the effects of bromide in a reef tank? What are some things we should be looking out for? I Just bought a beginners kit from two part solution and have been using it for about 2 weeks. Someone posted that two part solution is aware of the problem and that they said that their Dowflake is OK and they have a new product Lined up after it runs out. Is this true? Should I stop using my 2 part or keep on keeping on?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not much is known about the effects of bromide in a reef aquarium. I've not done a literature search of known toxic levels in seawater.

Bromide is discussed here:

The Halogens Part I: Bromine in Seawater and Aquaria
http://web.archive.org/web/20030626163126/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/oct/bio/default.asp

and

What Happens When Ozone is Applied to Seawater?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php#6

[rigleautomotive]

thanks randy,after reading the article by bingman,i am not sure the bromide will do harm,and it may be a plus for some.or will it acumalate to a harmful level in time and become a problem.does dow say how high the level will be in there product and do you feel that it will be harmful to corals.it may just make algae grow a bit quicker.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The level is seemingly high for routine use as a supplement, but it has not been proven too high. It is not too high for a once in a while boost to calcium. :)

A 100 ppm boost to calcium will boost bromide by about 1 ppm (about 2%). If that depletes as fast as the 100 ppm of calcium, then there is no problem. If not, then it may accumulate. I do not know how high it would need to accumulate to be a concern.

[leoskee]

Im still trying to figure out what the ill affects of bromide are!? Anyone?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

see above. :)

YOu can look through the literature results for ecotoxicity here:

remember that bromide is usually 67 ppm in seawater, or about 67,000 ug/L

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35240#Ecotoxicity

[brandonberry]

I am so releived. I just ordered several 50 lb bags that came in just a couple of weeks ago. After reading this, I was scared that they may be the new lots. I just checked ande they are the old lots. It may have to do with the fact that I am in the south and we haven't used any yet this year. I guess I should go ahead and order some more while I can. FWIW, if you have a friend in the south that has a relationship with a chemicall supplier, you may want them to try to go ahead and order a bag for you.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How did you determine that? By a lot number on the bag followed by the code described in the Dow press release?

I figured they'd all be new by now, but I'd be glad to be wrong. :)

[renogaw]

I got a bag back in august of this year. does bromine not show up in their chemical content breakdown? I'm in the north east, so i'd be pretty sure that all the dow that was shipped up here since the beginning of 2006 would be new stuff and all the old stuff would be depleted no? the lot number on the bag is so hard to read, but i do not see the letters mentioned.

now i'm wondering if i should continue usage or not :(

[ArtC]

Does this look safe to use?

http://http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog_name=Chemicals&product_id=5561538#

Of course they don't list bromine, but there isn't much room left for it if the stuff is 105% CaCl2 :confused:

Assay (as CaCl2•2H2O) 99.0-105.0%
pH of a 5% Solution @ 25°C 4.5-8.5
Insoluble Matter 0.01%
Oxidizing Substances (as NO3) 0.003%
Sulfate (SO4) 0.01%
Ammonium (NH4) 0.005%
Barium (Ba) 0.005%
Heavy Metals (as Pb) 5 ppm
Iron (Fe) 0.001%
Magnesium (Mg) 0.005%
Potassium (K) 0.01%
Sodium (Na) 0.02%
Strontium (Sr) 0.1%

I know, it is way expensive unless you go for 50kg...

[renogaw]

good news btw. the bromine change occured dec 2006, not 2005:

http://www.reefwerks.com/media/August2005add.pdf

[ArtC]

Per the link above, Dow promises that the Food Grade products will have the historical bromide levels. (Item 3)

For the Technical Grade (Dowflake and other deicers), they say the bromide will usually be at historical levels but may be as high as the new level. (Item 2)

That probably means that they will be doing some test runs of their processing with the bromine extraction process turned off. So you'll probably get 65 ppm but you might get 8000 ppm. That doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

[Rambomessiah]

I guess I'll just have to use mine on the driveway!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Per the link above, Dow promises that the Food Grade products will have the historical bromide levels. (Item 3)

The link earlier in this thread shows the food grade to have bromide at 8500 ppm, which is similar to the new Dowflake. The item 3 that you mention says that food grades will also hit these levels in 2007.

http://www.dow.com/calcium/news/August_2005.pdf

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Oops, I had a math mistake in the calculation above. I'm reposting data from above:

The level is seemingly high for routine use as a supplement, but it has not been proven too high. It is not too high for a once in a while boost to calcium.

A 100 ppm boost to calcium will boost bromide by about 4 ppm (about 6%). If that depletes as fast as the 100 ppm of calcium, then there is no problem. If not, then it may accumulate. I do not know how high it would need to accumulate to be a concern.

[rigleautomotive]

thanks for looking randy.you are greatly appreciated

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does this look safe to use?

Unfortunately, there is not enough info to say for sure that it is OK. That's why I did extensive testing of Dowflake before recommending it. That said, I do not see any problem with the values shown.

[rdnyva]

I have been using SunCoast Calcium Hardness Increaser which I buy at the pool store. I've been using it for over a year with no ill effects but will take a closer look at it after reading these threads. The label says 77% Calcium Chloride, 23% inert ingredients but doesn 't say what those inert ingredients are. Anybody else usethis, any problems. Should I be worried?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The inert ingredients are primarily water, with a few other tidbits tossed in. It's those tidbits that could be a concern, but if you've used it for a year and are happy with the tank, I see little reason to switch. :)

[ShipWreck2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11396800#post11396800 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lecher
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/22679

I emailed AquaticEco about their product and received this response:

Thank you for checking with Aquatic Eco-Systems. Here is the breakdown on CCB1, the beaded product which we carry at present:

Anhydrous

CaCl2 94%
Arsenic as As <3mg/kg
Flouride < 40 ppm
Heavy Metals < 20 ppm
Lead < 5mg/kg
Magnesium and Alkalai salts < 5%


Would this be a safe alternative to Dow flake? How much of this would be required in the formula to replace the dow flake?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It doesn't give enough info to compare to Dowflake. That is the same spec that Dow's food grade meets, but Dow now has too much bromide. It might be repackaged Dow material.

[ShipWreck2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11411486#post11411486 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
It doesn't give enough info to compare to Dowflake. That is the same spec that Dow's food grade meets, but Dow now has too much bromide. It might be repackaged Dow material.

What specific questions do I need to ask?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, the bromide level would be useful. To OK Dowflake, I ran a couple of dozen tests myself as companies do not usually provide technical analyses of bulk materials:

Purity of Calcium Chloride
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/chem.htm

[brandonberry]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11404014#post11404014 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
How did you determine that? By a lot number on the bag followed by the code described in the Dow press release?

I figured they'd all be new by now, but I'd be glad to be wrong. :)


Yes. I checked the lot number for the codes someone posted above. Also, there was a number that appeared to be a date below the lot number which read 3/06.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Great. Good to know there is still good material about. :)

[rogergolf66]

well I am not very good with all this chemistry stuff, but I have done as much reading as I can understand. you said the best way to deal with this is to pay more get something else.



Here I have 3 questions

At the price of B-Ionic it is cheeper in the long run to get a clacium reactor?

Can I / Should I assume that the stuff I/we get from 2part.com is safe to use in our tanks? meaning are they going to stop selling when they run out of the old stuff?

Should I stop using the mix I am using now?

Anything you can tell me would be great.

just wondering what are the chances companys like B-ionic would pay dowflack and such companies to make the level questionalble for tanks. Just a thought not a question.

Roger

[Pufferpunk]

Interesting! I am so glad I never gave away any of the 5g bucket of Pedlow I bought. I know the guy I got it from bought it several years ago, so it should be fine, right? Since all I use is 1 tsp/day, it'll probably last me forever.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

At the price of B-Ionic it is cheeper in the long run to get a clacium reactor?

For anything except a small tank, yes. Limewater is also inexpensive. I compare costs here (although the prices are a bit dated now):


How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm


I am so glad I never gave away any of the 5g bucket of Pedlow I bought. I know the guy I got it from bought it several years ago, so it should be fine, right?

Yep, it lasts forever. :)

[Reef55]

I emailed twopartsolution.com regarding bromide levels in the dow products. Here is their exact reply:



Mark,

We have been stockpiling calcium chloride with lot numbers predating the December 31, 2006 date on which Dow changed their manufacturing process. There has been a resurgence of a letter dating back to August of 2005 in which Dow first states its intent to change its manufacturing process that would result in an increase in bromide. However, Dow on December 15, 2005, sent out another letter entitled "Addendum to Letter of August 2005: Notification of Impurity Profile Change in Calcium Chloride Products". Item 1 from this letter states:

"The date for ending the bromide removal process, initially scheduled for December 31st of 2005, has changed to December 31, 2006.”

This letter has been linked to earlier, but buried in some of the same threads discussing the bromide issue that have posted the original August 05 letter.

We have been aware of this since starting our business and verified that all Dow we purchased had lot numbers starting with U. Lot numbers starting in U were manufactured in 2006. We have also been stockpiling as much 2006 Dow as possible in order to provide an uninterrupted supply of economical calcium chloride to our fellow reefers. This also allows us time to source an alternative source.

As a last note, we use our products in our own tanks. If we didn’t think a product was safe enough for our own use we wouldn’t sell it to others.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Andrew Duneman
Email: andrew@reefchili.com
Fax: 763.546.1720
www.twopartsolution.com

[ROR]

I finally broke down and ordered some food grade Calcium Chloride from Two Part. Probably could have found some locally but it's not worth the hassle IMO. I'd rather pay them to source the right batch numbers, plus by using a product that a large number of other RC members are using I should find out quickly if there are any problems with it. The Bromide scare must be the best thing that's ever happened to their business.

Rob

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I suspect they are happy for now. :)

[acm]

Randy,
Is there a way to agitate this stuff ut like protien skimming or activated carbon?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Agitate?

You mean ways to deplete bromide?

Bromide is likely converted to organic forms (many would be skimmable or carbon removable) and also taken up by micro and macroalgae, so it may be depleted, but I do not know how fast.

[rogergolf66]

Any guess as to what problems would occur if it dosn't deplete at a fast enough rate?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The potential negative impact of excessive bromide is not known for reef tanks.

[einsteins]

IF an alternative is not found by 2 part, I bet prices will be creeping up...

Just a hunch....hope I am wrong.

eins

[brandonberry]

It sounds like, from the above posts, that Dow was using some method to extract the bromide from the Calcium Chloride. Any idea what method they used to do this and if it could be done in the home? I was curious if it might be something simple like baking it in the oven or something.

[Dave & Monica]

I found another interesting link from some time ago.
http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3948&PN=0&TPN=1

and another thread with more details:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1166963

I gathered that: Scottwood Industries = Excel = Driveway Heat = Peladow, all manufactured by DOW

I just started to research using DIY CAL/ ALK and am just caught up in all of this. I have a 50lb bucket of Excel and others have been using it here locally in Denver with no issues to date. Regular water changes should help. Many of us are watching and reading....
/r Dave

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not beleive that there is any simple bromide removal process.

[Greg Hiller]

Randy, not to be a pain in the behind on the #'s, but if anyone ever does some calculations for accumulation/consumption/dilution by water changes, etc. of the bromide, I thought it might be worthwhile to nail the numbers down.

If using Dowflake 77-80% calcium chloride, if you assume 78.5% calcium chloride. Since anhydrous calcium chloride is 36% calcium by weight, then Dowflake itself is 28.3% calcium. To boost a tank 100 ppm (mg/l) in calcium then requires 353 mg/l of Dowflake. Since the new Dowflake is estimated by Dow to be 7,000 ppm by weight bromide, that's 0.7% by weight bromide. 353 * 0.007 = 2.5 ppm (mg/l) bromide or about 3.7% increase assuming bromide in NSW is 67 ppm.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, that looks to be correct. :)

[eskymick]

I've been using a product I found locally. It's called SnoMelt and the label says it's "100% Calcium Chloride". It's in pellet form.

Is anyone familiar with this product? I've been using it for the calcium portion of 2-part and, so far, I've found no ill effects.



http://www.snomelt.com

[ArtC]

The answer you'll get in this forum is that 'Nothing is 100% anything and anybody who claims different is a liar.'

Not that SnoMelt is trying to deceive you, but for their purposes (melting snow) calling it 100% is close enough. They probably put 100% the material they buy as 'technical grade' CaCl2 in to the bottle.

For your purposes, you need to know more. And SnoMelt may use material from different manufacturers at different times - so unless you know who is providing it, you are just hoping.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Happy Reefing. :)

[Spuds725]

I just checked my jug of driveway heat-- no Lot numbers on it...

although I bought it early last winter (novemeber 06) so it should be ok. I also have some calcium hardness increaser plus I got from Leslies pool supply in May of 06 that I'm relatively certain is from Dow (I used if for 6 months til I found the ice melter)-- I should be set for a while... I do have a calcium reactor I need to fire up one of these days.

Thanks for the info everyone ... I'm gonna pass it along (I've been recommending driveway heat on other boards)

[stressed damsel]

I have several 50lb. bags of Dowflake , after reading this I checked the package for lot bumbers. I found several numbers on the bags but none that state "lot" Where would I find the number? I did see 11/19/04 on the bags after a real long number.

[Spuds725]

I'm guessing that you are ok... way before the changes.

[stressed damsel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11446173#post11446173 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Spuds725
I'm guessing that you are ok... way before the changes.
Guessing is not good enough when it comes to our reefs... Plus the hardware store has pallets of it and If it is good I will buy them all... to last a lifetime.

[Spuds725]

Fine..

IMO you are ok.... way before the changes (2004 was before 2007 the last I checked)

[Mavrk]

At the beginning of this thread, I was wondering why people have not been having problems with their tanks if Dow made this change December of 2005. Now that it has been clarified that they put this off until December of 2006, it makes more sense.

[chercm]

so what is the new receipe ?

[renogaw]

Message from Dow to clear up any issues:

The process change that increased bromide levels in Dow calcium chloride products was implemented in December 2006. The first letter in the Dow lot number represents the year of manufacture. The letter "V" represents product manufactured in 2007, therefore any product with a lot number starting with "V" is product containing the higher levels of bromide impurity. Any lot number starting with a letter that precedes "V" in the alphabet, (such as "T" or "U"), would be product with the lower level of bromide impurity.

I hope this answers your question.


Regards,

Joe Althouse

The Dow Chemical Company

Calcium Chloride Products

[fatrip]

would this letter be the same on Peladow as well?

[renogaw]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11471606#post11471606 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fatrip
would this letter be the same on Peladow as well?

he said it was for all their dow calcium cloride products i believe

[fatrip]

did you email him, cause i cant get any one to email me back. there is no lot number on the bag and nothing that has any letters in it. just wondering if you stil have his email or if you would be interested in asking him how i would go about finding when this bag was manufactured. thanks :)

[renogaw]

I used the contact us button on the dow.com page. He never responded to any other emails i subsequently sent him.

[fatrip]

bummer, yea i had sent them 2 contact us email things and they havnt responded, over a week period.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

so what is the new receipe ?

It is not a new recipe per se. It is a concern with one ingredient in the recipe, and a switch to something else or an old batch may be useful. :)

[Namyar]

I moving on to the pickling lime

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's a fine idea. :)

[rigleautomotive]

randy,what is your secret in keeping parameters where they need to be with just kalk.i always end up with low alk within a week or two.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe the demand in your tank is higher. Do you have a lot of SPS?

[rigleautomotive]

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q46/rigleautomotive/mini-macro122307.jpg
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q46/rigleautomotive/mini-DSCF1290.jpg

yes,big old mother colonies.my frag system does great with just kalk.on my display,a 180 gallon ,i need to run my cal reactor with effluent at 6.8,and all top off is kalk to keep things where they need to be.i dont like the repressed ph so i run my cal reactor at 6.8.i would like to get away with one or the other,but my tank does the best with both.

[tmz]

Nice corals. I use fully staurated limewater for all top off and run a calcium reactor 24/7 at 6.7 with similar results my alk at least for now holds steady. I proably have less sps. I'm very content with this combination.
Happy New Year

[rigleautomotive]

thanks,i'm with you there,but sometimes i wish there was an easier way.

[davy182]

For how many questions you get and responses. I would like to give you kudos Randy for being patient and a good source for other reefers to rely on for credible information.

[kinerson]

Nice post Davy, I second it!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, I appreciate the kind words. :)

[davy182]

Randy,

In saltwater does bromide stand alone or is it measured as sodium bromide. Because if it is, pool/spas have bromine generators to substitute chlorine and the test kits they use is for sodium bromide. Do you think something like this would work to check the calcium products. http://www.lambertshomeservices.com/aquachek_sodium_bromine.html

David

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not know how the kit works, but it certainly measures bromide ion, and simply reports the results as it it all were sodium bromide. It is a slight correction downward to get bromide alone. I do not know if it would be accurate in seawater, or what range it reads in.

[ShipWreck2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11411486#post11411486 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
It doesn't give enough info to compare to Dowflake. That is the same spec that Dow's food grade meets, but Dow now has too much bromide. It might be repackaged Dow material.

I have emailed aquatic Eco-Systems again and although they can not confirm the bromide levels but did verify this is not a repackaged Dow product and that it does not contain any potassium either. They sell it as an additive for recirculating aquaculture systems so it must be safe for freshwater fish, but not sure about corals/marine.

Anybody tried this product?

[192clark]

where would the lot number be found on a 50 lb bag?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's one location that someone found and posted a picture on the Boston Reefers web site:

http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33813&stc=1&d=1198176407

[192clark]

Thanks Randy.

And Happy Reefing to you!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

you're welcome.

Good luck. :)

[Greg Hiller]

Here's another option, seems cheap enough to buy a few and check it out:

http://www.discovertesting.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=42&catid=20&loc=show&headTitle=Bromine%20Test%20Strips%20(3%20in%201)%20Spa%20Check

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Bromine? Not bromide?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, here's the link that Greg posted in a clickable form:

http://www.discovertesting.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=42&catid=20&loc=show&headTitle=Bromine%20Test%20Strips%20(3%20in%201)%20Spa%20Check

[jasonmartin1313]

Randy any ideas if this is suitable?
Brand SWI it came in from China

SWI Calcium Chloride 77-80% Pure Flake 80#
CAS# Calcioum Chloride 010043-52-4 77-80%
Sodium Chloride 007647-14-5 1.5-2.5%
Potassium Chloride 007447-40-7 1.0-2.5%
Water 007732-18-5 Balance

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One cannot tell from such an analysis.

[hypernesia]

I contacted the company that sells the Bromine test kits. It reads from 0-20ppm. 1mg/l = 1 ppm so that reads to low for use in reef aquaria. Correct me if I'm wrong?

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11576167#post11576167 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hypernesia
I contacted the company that sells the Bromine test kits. It reads from 0-20ppm. 1mg/l = 1 ppm so that reads to low for use in reef aquaria. Correct me if I'm wrong?
If there is no other interference, it might be possible to get a good approximation reading by diluting the sample using RO/DI or distilled water.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We are concerned with bromide (Br-), not bromine (Br2). Bromine test kits as for pools are not useful for us. :)

The difference is the same as chloride (Cl-; 19,000 ppm in seawater) and chlorine (Cl2; 1 ppm will kill everything in the tank).

[hypernesia]

Trial and error right? 5ml sample diluted in 100ml RO/DI. If you get a reading on the test kit multiply by 20?

[hypernesia]

Oops. Correct So its back to nitric acid and Silver nitrate. Even if i could get my hands on it my wife wouldn't let it in the kitchen:)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:lol:

I doubt that will work in seawater either. :D

[hypernesia]

FWIW I have been using this years Prestone Driveway heat since Oct 07 havevn't seen anything suspicious. Just caught this thread a week ago. So is anyone willing to be a guinea pig with the new Dow product? Even though I haven't seen an issue in my tank, I'm not sure I want to be the one, killing livestock isn't worth the rick IMO

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm sure lots of folks have been using it, but if they have any troubles they won't know that this might be a possibility. Especially when we don't know what to even look for as the first sign of a problem.

[hypernesia]

Understand... kalk reactor here we come

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11576436#post11576436 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hypernesia
FWIW I have been using this years Prestone Driveway heat since Oct 07 havevn't seen anything suspicious. Just caught this thread a week ago. So is anyone willing to be a guinea pig with the new Dow product? Even though I haven't seen an issue in my tank, I'm not sure I want to be the one, killing livestock isn't worth the rick IMO :) FYI You are already. Prestone Driveway Heat is a Dow product. Anhydrous cacium chloride.(it has less water than the flake)

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11580375#post11580375 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
:) FYI You are already. Prestone Driveway Heat is a Dow product. Anhydrous cacium chloride.(it has less water than the flake)
Actually it seems to be monohydrate rather than anhydrous. In any case it has less water than the flake (dihydrate) which will make only a diference in concentration of Calcium and Chloride per unit of weight :D

[hypernesia]

I realize I am, in reality a guinea pig for this, and yes I knew that it was a DOW product. I just didn't know that they changed their formula till of late. I do make the solution per Randy's recipe (20% less) I plan on going to kalk as I don't have a heavy load of SPS. How would I go about moving to kalk... no reactor. just a trash can and kalk in it ? What is the easiest way to use this as top off? I don't have an ato.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11581676#post11581676 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hypernesia
I realize I am, in reality a guinea pig for this, and yes I knew that it was a DOW product. I just didn't know that they changed their formula till of late. I do make the solution per Randy's recipe (20% less) I plan on going to kalk as I don't have a heavy load of SPS. How would I go about moving to kalk... no reactor. just a trash can and kalk in it ? What is the easiest way to use this as top off? I don't have an ato.
Trash can, powerhead for mixeing (only when adding new powder) and a doser pump with adjustable flow and volume. If the pump is accurate like the litermeter III you do not need an ATO. You can use a doser that is not adjustable but you will need then the ATO.

[tmz]

I 've dosed limewater two ways.

A five gallon buckett with a reasonably snug lid(salt buckett)is used.Drill a hole about1.5inches from the bottom which will snuggly fit a 2 inch long piece of righid airline tube. Spread a bead of"Plumbers Goop" around the outside of the buckett where the rigid tube meets the buckett. Attach flexible airline tube to the rigid tube. Place a plastic airline valve on the end of the tube to regulate the drip.Place the buckett above the waterline of the sump and keep the drip tube out of the water.

Add your lime and then fill with the daily amount of top off your system needs. Stir it up,wait a few hours and drip it(preferably at night). A generally safe rate is a maximum of 1 gallon per hour of fully saturated (2tsps per gal) limewater.

I used this technique for over a year. Now I do the mixing once a week in a brute garbage can and dose at night with a dosing pump.

I also use a calcium reactor 24/7 and the tww balance each other off nicely.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm
This article and the two others on limewater by Randy are very helpful.

[tmz]

Correction,a generally safe rate is 1 gallon per hour of fully saturated limewater PER 100gallons of system water.

[hypernesia]

So if I make up kalk in a 33 gallon trash can and use a 3gpd reef filler that I set to my evap rate I shouldn't need any floats is that correct? Based on 1.5 gpd evap on my tank the trash can should last 21 days. How much kalk should I put in the trash can on initial setup? How long should it be mixed and how long should I wait to start using it. Thanks for your help

[tmz]

I don't use any floats because I trust the liter meter and I only have 30g still resevoir for a 500g system. A redundant shut off system of some kind(a solenoid which would shut down the pump if a certain sump level were exceeded) would be a good safety fixture with a large resevoir,in my opinion. My friend has used a reef filler diaphram pump for about ten years without any issues at all.

Randy Homes Farley wrote an article on limewater degradation in air. The limewater interacts to some degree with the air and picks up CO2 forming unusable calcium carbonate which forms a film on the top of the water and some settles to the bottom. If I remeber correctly his tests showed that the dragradation in strength of fully saturated limewater was minimal and insignificant without restirring over the course of a week to ten days as long as there was extra undissoved lime in the bottom of the resevoir, 21 days might be a problem without restirring,although, the film on top may give you more time since it is thought to seal off the air.

I calculate out two tsps per gallon and the add an extr 20%to insure there is extra to cover degradation. The slurry that forms on the bottom of the resevoir consists of precipitated impurities and excess undisolved lime.When you use more than 2 tsps per gallon the excess will not dissove and falls to the bottom to be used later.
When restirred it will dissove but the crystalized impurities will not.

Good Luck

[hypernesia]

Thanks for the help. Currently reading Randy's articles!!:)

[tmz]

Stir it vigorously and wait untill it becomes realtively clear.This usually takes a few hours. Remember to add the lime to the water and not the water to the lime.Otherwise it will precipitae as you bring up the water volume.

[Parasite]

Anyone know if Peak Ultra melt is a Dow product?

Thanks,
Brett

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not know, but it is a double edged sword. If it is a Dow product, it likely is OK aside from the excessive bromide. If it is not, the we do not know anything about whether it is pure enough or not, regardless of bromide levels.

[luvmylo]

randy what does bromide do in the system. sorry if you have already posted this

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We already posted that the specific problems it might cause are not known. :)

[ezcompany]

Randy, I've been using this to supplement my calcium as i heard it is a substitute for dowflake.

http://www.lesliespool.com/browse/Home/Chemicals/Adjusters/Hardness-Plus-45-lbs/D/30100/P/1:100:1000:100030/I/14428

Have you heard of any impurities for this product?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's an old thread on it. It may be repackaged Dow material and/or another supplier. In either case I cannot say it is OK (or not).

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1040275

[peterpion]

Havent been following this thread so this has probably been covered but I came up with a solution to the calcium chloride problem a while ago that suited me, but it might not suit anyone else.

Would need one of the experts to comment on whether its a good idea or not but...

I had loads of analytic grade kalk having bought a load of it, but when I got fed up with kalk with my paltry evaporation here in the freezing UK, i turned it into nice pure calcium chloride with hydrochloric acid.

To get the hydrochloric acid nice and clean, I did something called sub boiling distillation. Sounds complicated but it wasent.

I got muratic acid from the hardware store, which was 33% hydrochloric acid.

Then I got 2 pyrex bowls about 12 inches in diameter from the food store and a smaller one that fit inside the pair of large ones.

Then this bit is hard to describe: I placed one bowl on the table open end up (as you would if you were about to pour water into it). Placed a glass inside this and the small bowl on that, and poured some acid into this small bowl. Then the other large bowl went on top, upside down. This made a sort of chamber out of the two larger bowls, with the smaller bowl inside sitting up on a glass.

Then I used a 500w garden spotlight (halogen 5 pounds from the hardware place) shining through the top bowl onto the bowl with acid in it. Left it outside for a while then because it starts to smell of acid. The lamp was only a couple of inches away from the base of the top bowl to maximise the heat getting to the acid bowl.

What happens is that the lamp heats the bowl of acid, and the acid evaporates, then it meets the colder outside bowl surface, condenses and trickles into the bottom bowl. This is very pure, at least as far as most of the things we want to keep out of our tanks to the best of my understanding. Metals etc are brought to the ppt range.

To make it more effective I blackened the outside surface of the smaller bowl with a candle flame, and also made a seal out of aquarium silicone stuck to one of the bowls (bit of a trick to that but ill expand if anyone does want to try it).

Then of course just add the pure acid to limewater, pure kalk powder, calcium media etc whatever your pure form of calcium is. Calcium carbonate plus hydrochloric acid makes calcium chloride plus water plus CO2.

Obviously you have to make sure you fully neutralise the acid during the addition otherwise you may add some acid to the tank which is bad. Of course just use excess kalk powder / calcium media to ensure this.

Probably of no use to anyone but I thought I'd mention it just in case.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wow, that's a lot of work, but an interesting science experiment.

FWIW, I expect that almost everyone would prefer to buy calcium chloride than to try to make it themselves, but it certainly can be done. :)

[nieczy]

I found this business report about Calcium Chloride producers. It's from 2000 but I'd guess that many of them are still producing it.

http://www.the-innovation-group.com/ChemProfiles/Calcium%20Chloride.htm

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Nice list of place to look for other products. :)

[peterpion]

Error

[peterpion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11669365#post11669365 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Wow, that's a lot of work, but an interesting science experiment.

FWIW, I expect that almost everyone would prefer to buy calcium chloride than to try to make it themselves, but it certainly can be done. :)

Yes as you say lot of work... here in the uk we're starved of chemicals though, getting an assay is a nightmare so this might have its uses to make small quantities of additives if youre that way inclined as I unfortunately am... :-)

BTW Randy I believe youre one of the experts on this board arent you? I have read a lot of your articles and gained a lot from them so thanks. Dident even fully understand alk till those articles...

Care to comment on the electrochemistry in a (slightly insane possibily) post I made under another thread? Would appreciate a chemists critque.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I replied to the other thread. :)

[peterpion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11675224#post11675224 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
I replied to the other thread. :)

Sorry about that im on a really slow hotel link and I dident check - race condition!

Actually while im here in this thread, it might be a good time to ask another question I had while reading one of Randys howtos.

Regarding the magnesium, and the sulphate elevation from dosing magnesium sulphate (which is easy to get food grade), it occured to me that one could precipitate some of the sulphate out before adding to the aquarium by adding some calcium salt (like chloride)? Thus turning the magnesium sulphate into magnesium chloride.

As I say im not a chemist but I believe that adding a dissolved calcium salt to a dissolved sulphate will cause calcium sulphate to precipitate out - its very low in solubility I thought.

Couldent one just knock some of the sulphate out of the solution with this method? Bringing the sulphate / chloride ratio to what is desired?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's an interesting idea. Yes, you could precipitate some calcium sulfate by adding calcium chloride to magnesium sulfate. I think that already happens a bit when folks combine magnesium sulfate and magnesium chloride, since the mag chloride has some calcium in it.

It might take a fair amount of experimenting to determine how much to add to get a reproducible solution.

Getting magnesium chloride may be easier for many, but perhaps not everyone can get it easily.

[peterpion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11676612#post11676612 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
That's an interesting idea. Yes, you could precipitate some calcium sulfate by adding calcium chloride to magnesium sulfate. I think that already happens a bit when folks combine magnesium sulfate and magnesium chloride, since the mag chloride has some calcium in it.

It might take a fair amount of experimenting to determine how much to add to get a reproducible solution.

Getting magnesium chloride may be easier for many, but perhaps not everyone can get it easily.

I'll give it a go when I get back then. Would I be right in saying that accuratly weighing the calcium chloride and magnesium might be difficult because of the fact that I dont know what hydration state they are in? Would it work to bake them individually in the oven to remove this and if so whats a safe but effective temperature to use? And although I know this is a bit of a difficult question to answer but how pure is my calcium chloride from a food supplier likely to be?

As I say I have magnesium sulphate from a brewing supplier and Ca chloride from a food wholesaler but getting anything from merck nowadays seems virtually impossible which is a big pain. Have investigated getting set up as a business to do it but its a lot of hassle. Are there any other UK aquarium tinkerers on the board that might know any sources of these things? Also want some strontium (of any kind).

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think the biggest concern for the home DIYer (aside from starting purity) is the fact that they can do volume but not mass, so since bulk density varies, they do not usually have a good way to measure exact volumes of different brands of chemicals.

I wouldn't mess with any strontium additions, myself. :)

[peterpion]

I'm so sorry but every answer I get seems to stimulate another question...

Why would you Randy not dose strontium? Is it not needed in your opinion with decent water changing? Or do you mean you would stick to the off the shelf products?

Is that also the case with Iodine? I remember reading someones article (maybe yours) that I remember stated that the author dident recommend doing iodine.

Whats your opinion (or/and others) on the baking of chemicals to make them weigh more accuratly? Would it work for calcium chloride and magnesium sulphate? Im not sure how well those chemicals hold onto their water.

Also if anyone is looking for accurate scales, I bought an electronics scale recently for 30 pounds (about 50 dollars) from a place called maplin that we have in the UK which weighs to 200g with resolution of 0.01 gram - 10 milligrams. Pretty cool.

Thanks by the way to everyone so far for your help! Hopefully soon I will be able to reciprocate.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why would you Randy not dose strontium? Is it not needed in your opinion with decent water changing? Or do you mean you would stick to the off the shelf products?

I do not think either strontium or iodine supplements have a demonstrated utility. I have dosed them in the past, especially iodine which I dosed for years. I noticed no change on stopping, and there is no literature indication of utility for the organisms that we typically keep.

This article has more:

The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners, Part 2: What Chemicals Must be Supplemented
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/index.php

from it:



Supplementing Iodine



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many aquarists dose iodine, and claim that certain organisms need it to thrive. Often mentioned are shrimp, Xenia species of soft corals, mushroom corals, and more. However, no evidence for an iodine requirement by these organisms appears anywhere in the scientific literature. They also thrive quite well in many coral reef aquaria where iodine is not dosed. Of Reef Central’s Tanks of the Month for the past couple of years, the majority do not supplement with any form of iodine (or at least do not mention doing so), although some certainly do dose it.

I do not presently dose iodine to my aquarium, and I do not recommend that others do so, either. Iodine dosing is much more complicated than dosing other ions due to its substantial number of different naturally existing forms, the number of different forms that aquarists actually dose, the fact that all of these forms can interconvert in reef aquaria, and the fact that the available test kits detect only a subset of the total forms present. This complexity, coupled with the fact that no commonly kept reef aquarium species are known to require significant iodine, suggests that dosing is unnecessary and problematic. On the other hand, it is nevertheless possible that some organisms that we keep do actually benefit from iodine, and that in some aquaria there is not enough in the foods that we add so that supplements may possibly be beneficial in those aquaria.

I dosed iodine for several years when I first set up my aquarium. I dosed substantial amounts of iodide to try to maintain 0.02 to 0.04 ppm of iodide (which is a natural level). Iodide is rapidly depleted as algae and perhaps other organisms take it up and convert it into organic forms. After a few years of dosing iodide, I became frustrated with the complexities of testing for it, so at that point I stopped dosing any supplemental iodine. That was about seven years ago. I detected no changes in any organisms, and never dosed any again. If you are dosing iodine now, I suggest stopping for a month or two, and seeing if you can objectively detect any difference in any organism.

For these reasons, I especially advise aquarists NOT to try to maintain a specific iodine concentration using supplementation and test kits. For those who do supplement iodine, I suggest iodide as a more suitable form than certain other additives, such as Lugol’s iodine, which is unnatural and potentially more toxic. Iodide is also more readily used than iodate by some organisms, and iodide is detected by both currently available iodine test kits (Seachem and Salifert).

Further information on iodine can be found in these articles:

Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm

Iodine in Reef Tanks 2: Effects on Macroalgal Growth
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2003/chem.htm


Supplementing Strontium



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Strontium may or may not be useful in coral reef aquaria, and it may or may not become depleted. Like magnesium, strontium becomes incorporated into calcium carbonate in place of a portion of the calcium ions. That incorporation happens to approximately the same extent whether a coral skeleton is being formed, or an abiotic (nonbiological) precipitate on a pump’s impeller. It is just a fact of life that strontium looks a lot like calcium, so it gets into places where calcium would otherwise be. Some aquarists have concluded that strontium may help corals to deposit their skeletons despite the absence of any evidence of this in the scientific literature, and of any direct experimental evidence (for or against) by hobbyists.

Some hobbyists do report positive effects of dosing strontium. Scientific evidence indicates that some organisms need strontium, albeit not the organisms that most reefkeepers maintain. Certain gastropods, cephalopods and radiolaria, for example, require strontium. There is, however, no clear evidence of any benefit of supplemental strontium in coral reef aquaria.

A few years back, when I tested my aquarium’s water for strontium (using a sophisticated lab machine), I found that in my reef aquarium, with no recent strontium additions, strontium was already elevated (15 ppm) above natural levels (8 ppm). By testing the Instant Ocean salt mix that I was using, I found that it, too, was elevated (15 ppm). I saw no evidence of depletion, at least not when performing my routine of changing 1% of the tank's water daily. I would not like to see the strontium level get any higher, because strontium is known to be toxic to some marine organisms at levels not too far above that. Consequently, adding a supplement without knowing the aquarium's current strontium level is not advisable.

Overall, water changes with a salt mix containing a suitable level of strontium may be the best way to keep strontium at appropriate levels, assuming it has any benefit at all. That requires no testing or worrying about dosages. For those who want to dose strontium, or who have very high calcification rates, which may deplete strontium faster than it can be replaced by water changes, I recommend testing to ensure that it does not get too high. My recommendation is to maintain strontium levels in reef aquaria in the range of 5-15 ppm. That level roughly spans the level in natural seawater of 8 ppm. I do not recommend that aquarists supplement strontium unless they have measured strontium and found it to be depleted below 5 ppm.

These articles have more detailed information on strontium:

Strontium and the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/chem.htm

Magnesium and Strontium in Limewater
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/chem.htm






Whats your opinion (or/and others) on the baking of chemicals to make them weigh more accuratly? Would it work for calcium chloride and magnesium sulphate? Im not sure how well those chemicals hold onto their water.

That probably depends on the chemical, but it might be useful. For calcium chloride, I think the 77-80% in Dowflake is likely as accurate as a home dried version.

[ReefNAZOut]

Randy, how much is your time worth? Im sure if you gave us a set amount we needed to pool together to pay you to do what is necessary to come up with the solution to this porblem we all could chip in to make it worth your time.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:lol:

I have less time than money. :D

That said, a study of bromide levels in reef aquaria to see if they ever become elevated, and how fast it is depleted would be interesting for someone to do, and I suggested to someone local who is also a chemist that I'd be happy to help advise on an appropriate protocol if they chose to do it.

[VivaBorg]

I purchased a pallet of Peladow, i think i have around 2700 lbs.

I dont know if this was posted yet, but i spoke with a dow rep today and she sent me this. Its a Lot # Decoder for Dow products. She wasnt specific if this was for all Dow products or just Pedalow, which was what i called and asked about.

Hope this helps

All my Peladow is Post Dec 31st 2006 so please dont PM me asking to buy some.


http://dow-gco.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/dow_gco.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=3482

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Thanks. :)

[Michaelf63]

Randy would the specification on this product be suitable to use in the calcium part of the recipe as dow flake is not available in Australia.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

While it does not test for everything, including the bromide in similarly pure Dow products, it is a high quality product and has a good chance of being OK unless it is actually made by Dow and repackaged. :)

[Michaelf63]

Thanks Randy would you mind also commenting on the data for the Magnesium part and would the quantities be the same if I use these products.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is likely fine. Add it slow the first time since it may have a little bit of ammonia in it (say 0.05 ppm in tank for a 100 ppm rise in magnesium).

[MBasile]

Does anyone know if hydrochloric acid can be purchased? Randy, maybe you might know of a way we can purchase it? We use a one molar solution of it in chemistry class all the time, but the school might have liscenses or something for it. If we could get some though, it would be easy (as someone from the UK posted above) to mix the HCL with Ca(OH)2, calcium hydroxide or kalk, to create H20(water), Cl-(cloride ions), and Ca2+(calcium ions). This would solve any problems with bromine or any other contaminate in the commercial calcium chloride.

[MBasile]

Does anyone know if hydrochloric acid can be purchased? Randy, maybe you might know of a way we can purchase it? We use a one molar solution of it in chemistry class all the time, but the school might have liscenses or something for it. If we could get some though, it would be easy (as someone from the UK posted above) to mix the HCL with Ca(OH)2, calcium hydroxide or kalk, to create H20(water), Cl-(cloride ions), and Ca2+(calcium ions). This would solve any problems with bromine or any other contaminate in the commercial calcium chloride.

[jdieck]

Just add the Ca(OH)2 to your system :D You will be adding the aklainity part too though.

[kaptken]

Randy? Just wondering what the reason for the bromide level change was. Did Dow go back to the Solvay process with a new source of mined Limestone with higher bromides? Or change source of brine solution with higher bromide salt levels to produce CaCl.?

Not too much info on Bromides and sea life. But i did find at least one class of snails that concentrate bromine compounds.

http://www.answers.com/topic/tyrian-purple

It seems the ancient Greeks, Phonecians and Romans used the bromine compound in the snails to make a purple dye. I think i also read somewhere that certain kelps and algeas also have higher levels. which as you sugguested might help to mitigate the problem. But I can.t quite find the reference again.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure of the reason for the change by Dow.

Craig Bingman talks about uses of bromide by marine organisms here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030626163126/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/oct/bio/default.asp

[Lo0seR]

Maybe this has been talked about before but could not find any info on it here at RC. We use this in concrete as an admix:

There is nothing complicated about LIQUIDOW * . It is produced from one of Earth’s simple yet valuable resources, natural brine deposits found underground. What happens once it leaves the ground is what makes it special.

Dow processes the brine into an odorless liquid called LIQUIDOW liquid calcium chloride. LIQUIDOW is a hygroscopic solution, which means it attracts moisture from the atmosphere and its surroundings.

LIQUIDOW is the perfect solution for many applications. Spread on unpaved roads, it keeps dust down. Applied to snowy and icy roads, it is a powerful deicer. Mixed with concrete, it accelerates setting time. LIQUIDOW offers you the highest levels of quality, performance, and cost effectiveness.

I know it's made by DOW but would not early batches of this product apply as well?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The bromide issue applies to all Dow calcium chloride products of all purities, including that one:

http://www.dow.com/calcium/news/August_2005.pdf

Are older batches of Liquidow pure enough? I do not know, but there is a good chance they are. Especially the food grade Liquidow.

[Rickyrooz1]

Is there a link for Randy's two-part recipe?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, here it is:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

[sweetdreamfiji]

Randy,

Why do you bake sodium bicarbonate instead of just purchasing sodium carbonate for your two part? Food grade sodium carbonate is available. Are there contaminates in sodium carbonate that are not in bicarb?

thanks for all your help,
Mike

[kaptken]

It's easy enough. i just pour 4 pounds of Baking Soda in a stainless steel lasgna pan and bake an hour at the prescribed temp. stir a few times for uniformity.

I bake my sodium bicarbonate because i can buy it at the dollar store for 50 cents a pound for food grade baking soda. They don't carry food grade sodium carbonate. Although the local super market carries washing soda at nearly the same price, it's not rated food grade. It might be just as good, but they don't say. So, ,, what the hey,

I BAKE ...BAKE...BAKE That H20 away!

Thank you Randy!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why do you bake sodium bicarbonate instead of just purchasing sodium carbonate for your two part? Food grade sodium carbonate is available. Are there contaminates in sodium carbonate that are not in bicarb?

Yes, food grade sodium carbonate is available, and that is what some of the reef two part resellers sell, which is likely fine, IMO. But many folks do not have ready access to it the way they do to baking soda at any grocery store. The washing soda sold at those same stores may not be labeled food grade, and so for the combination of convenience and assurance of purity, I've suggested using baking soda. :)

[LittleBlueGT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11817653#post11817653 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
I'm not sure of the reason for the change by Dow.

Craig Bingman talks about uses of bromide by marine organisms here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030626163126/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/oct/bio/default.asp

This is what I heard:

DOW used to run their calcium chloride through a bromide extraction process, because they sold bromide.

They have since ceased selling bromide, and thus do not run their calcium chloride through that process. Thus the elevated levels in currently produced calcium chloride.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks. :)

[anin]

I had a few questions..I have around 100gal total. Right now just got a few frags of sps, a clam, and few zoos. I wanted to try this 2 part and read the article but, i wasn't sure on couple of things. Right now my ph is around 8.15 and alk is at 5dkh. So choose recipe one? I will use dowflake,baking soda, and also magflake and epsom salt.

1. first when adjusting calcium and alkalinity to roughly their correct ranges, should i do it after a water change? because the levels would be closer to whats wanted?
2.After alk and cal is adjusted, should i does for example (.2ml times 100gal) of recipe one everyday? can I just dump it in my return area all at once?

[anin]

Also forgot to mention, i use tropic marin and run chemi pure elite.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd use recipe 1 if the pH is less than 8.2. Let's start a separate thread to discuss individual details, but you need to first measure calcium and alkalinity to see if a corrections is needed. No need for a water change.

[John Zillmer]

This link seems not to have been posted so far in this thread.

http://www.aquacraft.net/sf9904.html

What I found interesting was not the claims regarding the biological necessity of bromide for marine life, but rather the low levels of bromide in salt mixes. Since the page is originally dated 2000, these numbers might no longer be accurate (perhaps bromide levels in the salt mixes have risen with the change in CaCl manufacturing processes), but they still suggest that there is not clearly an excess of bromide in our systems currently.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is a debunked study run by a salt company whose product, surprise, surprise won the "contest".

FWIW, many mixes have changed since then and do claim to add NSW levels of bromide now.

[Steve 926]

Hello Randy

In your 2 part diy. you mention to use the alk. part after finishing the Ca & Mg. Would you sill add this if your Alk level's were 10~11
before adding the Alk. part of your formula.

Thanks for a reply

Steve

:smokin:

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11891191#post11891191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Steve 926
Hello Randy

In your 2 part diy. you mention to use the alk. part after finishing the Ca & Mg. Would you sill add this if your Alk level's were 10~11
before adding the Alk. part of your formula.

Thanks for a reply

Steve

:smokin:
You got it wrong Steve.
After you finish the calcium and alkalinity parts then you add the magnesium part and NO you do not need to add the alkalinity part or any part whatsoever if the corresponding parameter is at the right level.

[Steve 926]

Thanks for the reply jdiek & THANK YOU for your Ca, Mg & Alk calculator !!!

I generally check the Mg levels first & then the Ca. levels before checking your calculator for the correct amount of Randy's formula to add.

My Alk seems to remain steady at 10 ~ 11 (Salifert) so adding anything for it is mute.

Thanks for correcting me, I usually get it right eventually, or get another beer to start all over again :lol:

Steve

:smokin:

[jdieck]

:beer: It is rather unusual that the alkalinity stay leveled without any addition while the calcium and magnesium is consummed so eventually you will have to add some of it.

[Steve 926]

I do buffer my top off with some seachem marine buffer. I belive it affects the Alk also.

Steve

:smokin:

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11892949#post11892949 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Steve 926
I do buffer my top off with some seachem marine buffer. I belive it affects the Alk also.

Steve

:smokin:
Seachem's marine buffer is an alkalinity supplemet including borates but is more suitable for fish only systems. If you will buffer your top off why not use Limewater? cheaper and will add both calcium and alkalinity not only alkalinity while still maintaining good PH?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, it is a much better plan to stick to balanced calcium and alkalinity additives (two part, limewater, CaCO3/CO2 reactor, etc) as much as possible to avoid the roller coaster of calcium and alkalinity that otherwise often results.

[Steve 926]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11893468#post11893468 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
Seachem's marine buffer is an alkalinity supplemet including borates but is more suitable for fish only systems. If you will buffer your top off why not use Limewater? cheaper and will add both calcium and alkalinity not only alkalinity while still maintaining good PH?

Thanks Again jdieck & Randy.
" Only Mom Treated Me Better " :lol: :lol:

I use a 5 gal. for T/O . 1~tsp / 1~tbsp per gal of the 5
with the kalk. to start ?

Thanks for a reply

Steve

:smokin:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I use a 5 gal. for T/O . 1~tsp / 1~tbsp per gal of the 5
with the kalk. to start ?

That sounds like a fine plan, assuming you add it very slowly. :)

[sterbrock1]

Three questions:

1) In your opinion, what are the latest and greatest levels you should try and attian for the following: (SPS tank)

Calcium 400 - 450
Alkalinity 8
PH ?
Magnesium 1300-1500

Was going to start using 2 part but since I've seen this, I put on hold. Am going to start dosing Kalk.

2) If my parameters are out of wack, what is the best way to raise or lower each of these parameters:
raise lower
Calcium
Alkalinity
PH

3) Can I raise these all at once or should I do it over a period of time?

I think Randy wrote and article on how these components interact with each other, but I can't seem to put my hands on it.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Calcium 400 - 450
Alkalinity 8
PH ?
Magnesium 1300-1500

I recommend 380-450 ppm calcium, 2.5-4 meq/L (7-11 dKH) for alkalinity, and pH 8.2 to 8.5. Magnesium 1250-1350 ppm

The amount you can adjust each one at once depends on how you intend to do it.

This link has articles that show how to deal with all of these:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605

[sterbrock1]

Thanks Randy, I also found the calculator in your 2 part article to be helpful. I'll get reading this one.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Good luck. :)

[dougchambers]

Hey Randy... Speaking of Kalk, can raw pickling lime go stagnant or non productive if left to sit in a Kalk Reactor for a long period of time? We added almost a full jar of Mrs. Wages to our ~8.5g Kalk reactor initially, but I seem to more more pop in our pH when I add fresh lime even though there is a significant amount still in the bottom of the reactor. The reactor stirs ever 4.25 hours for 2 minutes and settles a minimum of 30 minutes before a top-off can resume. The chamber becomes a thick cloud during a stir so I know it's getting mixed.

http://135reef.chambersohana.com/graphics/temp/kalk_ca.JPG

Thanks,

Doug

[jdieck]

Doug:
My experience has been that water feeding the reactor has some dissolved CO2 in it and given enough time eventually a good portion of the Kalk turns into calcium carbonate flaky precipitate.
This is why I no longer just keep on adding new Kalk to the reactor but instead I use smaller quantities and empty and rinse the reactor of any left over at least every two to four weeks.
You will notice that newly added Kalk is very white and fine, as it eventually turns into carbonate together with impurities it turns snowy, greyish and kind of floating puffy snow.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that seems like a likely explanation. You can check the potency of the effluent by conductivity, if you have an appropriate meter (reading around 10 mS/cm). Other methods, such as pH, can be used but are cruder and more of an estimate.

If the water is clear, then calcium or alkalinity testing can be performed, but not if it is cloudy at all.

[kau_cinta_ku]

I may be stupid or comp. lost but from what I understand there is no test kit that is really good in reading bromide correct? if so how can salt mix compan'y measure how much bromide is in NSW to know how much to add in thir batches?

if their is a test kit to measure bromide where would we get it? i'm kinda interested in doing a test on the effects.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not know if salt mix companies routinely or even ever measure concentrations after formulation, but if they chose to, it is not hard to test for bromide with appropriate test equipment or by using commercial testing services. They would not use a test kit. If you want to measure bromide at home, I think the best way is to get a bromide selective electrode, and make some artificial seawater standards with appropriate standard concentrations of bromide.

That said, for a salt mix I expect that they have a recipe that they believe gives appropriate concentrations. After adding whatever amount of potassium or sodium bromide, then they likely assume they know what is there.

I show a recipe for seawater in this article:

What is seawater
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php

from it:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php#21

An Artificial Seawater Recipe

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those who are interested, the following artificial seawater recipe is taken from "Chemical Oceanography" by Frank Millero. It makes a recipe that matches 35 ppt seawater in terms of major ions, but does not try to match all minor and trace elements, most of which will be present as impurities in the major elements.

23.98 g sodium chloride
5.029 g magnesium chloride
4.01 g sodium sulfate
1.14 g calcium chloride
0.699 g potassium chloride
0.172 g sodium bicarbonate
0.100 g potassium bromide
0.0254 g boric acid
0.0143 g strontium chloride
0.0029 g sodium fluoride
Water to 1 kg total weight.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

After thinking about this bromide issue for a while, I still do not know if there is a concern, but since so many reefers are using new batches of Dowflake and have not observed (or at least reported) a problem, I think the concerns may not be particularly significant. :)

[TOYTEK]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11955973#post11955973 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
After thinking about this bromide issue for a while, I still do not know if there is a concern, but since so many reefers are using new batches of Dowflake and have not observed (or at least reported) a problem, I think the concerns may not be particularly significant. :)
I heard from the LFS that our local coral farmer got hold of a new batch and had some issues. He was using it in large quantties though, something like 1-2 cups a day. Sorry, I don't know all the details.
You could try sending him a PM if you want details. http://reefcentral.com/forums/private.php?s=&action=newmessage&userid=41221

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks. I worry that there are too many other factors to figure out any particular case, but I appreciate the input. :)

[Rickyrooz1]

Randy, I wanted to PM you but it is blocked for you. Would you be able to post/e-mail me any available information on lanthanum chloride? I believe it is the active ingredient in Blue Life Phosphate Control. Have you had experience with this product?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I have pms turned off as I got too many to answer.

I've not used it and do not prefer it, but here's a thread with some of my comments, brief as they are:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1325856

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Toytek:

I sent a PM to the farmer that you mentioned to try to see if the problem relates to bromide. :)
Thanks

[risin]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I can't find anything...

In the homemade 2 part solution guide, there is a disclaimer in red saying Mag Flake may not be safe to use. Then right below that it says Randy only recommends Mag Flake that is manufactured by the dead sea company (which is the kind I have).

I'm a bit confused. Is it still safe to use the Mag Flake from the dead sea company?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There is no reason that I know of to believe it is unsafe. I put that in at the request of the manufacturer since they do not guarantee it is suitable (either do I). They sell a much pricier grade that they do guarantee for salt mix preparation, so you can interpret their motives how you wish.

Many people use it and continue to use it just fine. There have been no process changes that I am aware of.

[risin]

Got it, thanks Randy. I think I'm finally ready to make my own 2-part.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Good luck. :)

[bgdiving]

Randy, you had mentioned one of the ways to deal with the change in Dow flake was to switch to Lime. Since I already use saturated lime water for all my top off water in the evening and in addition dose my stony tanks with your 2 part solution, at 1ml/gallon, earlier in the day, can I do a slurry of concentrated lime in AM and then top off with saturated lime water in the evening? :confused:

Is their a limit as to how much lime slurry can be added especially if your already topping off with Lime water?

Is CO2 a limiting factor using that much lime? if so what happens to the excess hydroxide that doesn't get a chance to imidiatly combine with CO2? if there isn't enough CO2 initially would the hydroxide convert later to carbonate and/or bicarbonate when CO2 gradually becomes available?

Are there any particular problems asciated with the use of a lime slurry? :confused:

Thanks for your help!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The concern with adding lime all at once, either a solution or as a slurry is the instantaneous pH rise. Another concern is that impurities do not get a chance to settle out,a and the solids may land on something delicate before fully dissolving.

If the morning pH is low, you may be able to add a fair amount without the ph getting too high, but how much depends on what pH you are normally at.

[joelrod72]

I like to thank everyone for there input on this subject,and for RANDY big ups! a man with knowledge and the wisdom to share it for the greater good of our reef tanks and oceans. thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

[welcome]

and thanks. :)

[Fragmented 99]

2 part stupid question- Randy - wht the need to bake the baking soda to dry it out when its being added to water. Whats the raeson behind the baking ???

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Baking drives of carbon dioxide as well as water. That helps it raise pH more when added to the tank:

2NaHCO3 ---> Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2

[rogergolf66]

that makes sence. I didn't think of that before.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Happy Reefing. :)

[fish tanked]

At work I just ordered from Univar some calcium chloride that they claim is low in bromide.
They claim Honeywell manufactured it for Nestle for their bottled water specially because of the bromide concern.
Anyone know about this?
This might be a safe option. I had to buy a decades worth though so I dont know if you are going to be able to find it in smaller quantities.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Presumably it is food grade then, and if it is also low bromide then it sounds fine to use. :)

[lastduke]

Just bought a small bucket of Hardness Plus for swimming pool as Part A......

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know if that is adequately pure or not. If you try it, start very slowly.

[DeathWish302]

After thinking about this bromide issue for a while, I still do not know if there is a concern, but since so many reefers are using new batches of Dowflake and have not observed (or at least reported) a problem, I think the concerns may not be particularly significant.

Randy,

I have a batch of Prestone Driveway Heat that the labels leads me to believe was produced 02-06. I contacted Scottwood Industries with all info from bag with no answer....not surprised. So to my question.

Is it worth dosing anymore of this for fear of bromide and elevated levels of heavy metals or would I be better off ordering some food grade anhydrous calcium chloride from twopartsolution.com?

Secondly, what is your choice of salt mix? Currently, I have this huge concern with the amount of heavy metals in IO and Reef Crystals. I really don't like the slimy, brown residue in the bottom of my Brute can either. Appears this wasn't such a bargain buy for $30 for 160gallons of mix.

Any comments would be appreciated in you busy day.

Thanks,
Frank

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not know if it would have excess bromide or not, nor am I sure how big the problem is with it.

I use Instant Ocean which I boost with 70 ppm calcium from Dowflake and 150 ppm from MAG flake. The data that I have seen actually suggests that IO is pretty low in metals compared to other mixes.

[DeathWish302]

The data that I have seen actually suggests that IO is pretty low in metals compared to other mixes.

Where have you viewed these results? Personal testing or IO "claims"? I'm basing my assumption on Ron Shimek's article in Reefkeeping Mag. The article is "The Toxicity of Some Freshly Mixed Artificial Sea Water: A Bad Beginning For A Reef Aquarium."

This article can be found in the chemistry section of the site in past issues. Is this material outdated? This article depicts Coralife and IO as poor choices when compared to Bio-Sea Marinemix and Marinemix Bioassay. The comparison was against "natural" seawater. Obviously, I'm not rearing sea urchin offspring as Ron had for this study but I do favor the best choice for my livestock. I'm about to buy another bucket of salt and the time to change would be now if need be.

Oh, one last question about the two-part solution alkalinity portion. When mixing the baking soda, I usually add ~160F water. Does this drive off CO2 as baking and result in this acting more like Recipe 1 rather than recipe 2? I have a problem with high alkalinity and pH and wonder if this may be the culprit. I have not experimented with mixing "cold" baking soda and dosing this yet. Just wondered your thoughts on baking versus mixing with very hot water.

Thanks Randy for humoring a OCD reefer, I appreciate your advice and comments and believe your an RC asset.
Frank

[mhaith]

Randy,
In advance thank you for helping me so much over the last few months.
I have three questions:
Does there exist a spreadsheet with recommended suggestions for 'boosters' on other salt mixes?

Also, a question from a non-tech... How does one translate the ppm to dosage amounts?

I have a large Kalk stirrer that I use for ATO on approx. 3 gals/day on my 210g mixed reef. In order to keep parameters (420 calc/8dkh/1300mag) I have to dose an additional 500ml of 2part and I am now fighting to keep PH above 8.0. Does this sound right?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Where have you viewed these results? Personal testing or IO "claims"? I'm basing my assumption on Ron Shimek's article in Reefkeeping Mag. The article is "The Toxicity of Some Freshly Mixed Artificial Sea Water: A Bad Beginning For A Reef Aquarium."


Ron pretty much went into that test with the intent to show an answer he wanted. Note he hardly compared any other mixes. In fact, I don't think he tested any himself, just reported previous data that fit his hypothesis.

I base it on my own testing (copper) and a test by the maker of IO and RC, where IO looked to have lower metals than RC:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2004/feature.htm

Also on this independent test where IO was among the lowest for many metals:

Feature Article: Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study, Part I
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/11/aafeature1

Feature Article: Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study Part II
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also, a question from a non-tech... How does one translate the ppm to dosage amounts?

This calculator is the way to go:

Reef chemicals calculator
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

I don't have any sort of spread sheet, but you can look a the values for calcium and magnesium in various salt mixes that Billy got (a thread also stickied in this forum) and adjust your favorite as you see fit. :)

I have a large Kalk stirrer that I use for ATO on approx. 3 gals/day on my 210g mixed reef. In order to keep parameters (420 calc/8dkh/1300mag) I have to dose an additional 500ml of 2part and I am now fighting to keep PH above 8.0. Does this sound right?

It could be right. Every tank has different demand. Limewater alone is adequate for mine. :)

[DeathWish302]

Thanks Randy for the unbiased opinion and articles!!!

Frank

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing. :)

[bbyatv]

I have read that Dow flake lot numbers starting with "U" were made in 2006 and should not have a bromide problem. My problem is that it is very difficult to read the lot number on my bag.

Here is a link on how to decode a Dow lot number:

http://dow-gco.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/dow_gc...amp;p_topview=1 (http://dow-gco.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/dow_gco.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=3482&p_created=1119014604&p_topview=1)

Can anyone look at thier bag and tell me if there is a colon used after the word "Lot" in the lot number?

If so I think my bag reads Lot: UC10????

Thanks for any help.

Bruce

Here are some pictures of my lot number using various angles and lighting:

http://www.wamas.org/albums/bbyatv/calcchlor/Dsc03516.jpg

http://www.wamas.org/albums/bbyatv/calcchlor/Dsc03517.jpg

http://www.wamas.org/albums/bbyatv/calcchlor/Dsc03518.jpg

http://www.wamas.org/albums/bbyatv/calcchlor/Dsc03519.jpg

http://www.wamas.org/albums/bbyatv/calcchlor/Dsc03520.jpg

http://www.wamas.org/albums/bbyatv/calcchlor/Dsc03522.jpg

[Saddler]

Randy, your recipe calls to bake 2 1/4 cups of bisodium, but I've started baking about a gallon at a time and then making solution measured post-bake. Can you tell me how many teaspoons to remove from the 2 1/4 cups to account for the missing water and CO2?

[bertoni]

That's an interesting question. Personally, I'd just bake 2 1/4 cups and see what the result is.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12463489#post12463489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Saddler
Randy, your recipe calls to bake 2 1/4 cups of bisodium, but I've started baking about a gallon at a time and then making solution measured post-bake. Can you tell me how many teaspoons to remove from the 2 1/4 cups to account for the missing water and CO2?
It shall be around 1.4 to 1.5 (1-1/2) cups of baked baking soda depending on the final bulk density.
Weight wise you will need 371 grams of sodium carbonate instead of 594 grams of baking soda assuming all the baking soda converts to sodium cabonate during baking.

[DeathWish302]

Saddler:

Are you storing this baked baking soda for later dissolution? I would think for consistency sake you should bake only as much as you need. Otherwise I think CO2 and water could be absorbed when storing (think of clumping when storing sugar). Maybe this is not the case, it is just my opinion.

DW302

[bertoni]

If the powder is kept in a sealed container, it should be fine.

[WaterssretaW]

is arm and hammer baking soda okay?

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12498898#post12498898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterssretaW
is arm and hammer baking soda okay?
Yes, that is the one everyone uses.

[Saddler]

Yeah, storing it for later dissolution. I'm storing in airtight plastic containers.