Grounding Probes

[Crossbow]

Merry Christmas Eve Folks!

Does anyone here use a grounding probe on their tank? Just curious.

[m2434]

No here - prefer not to induce current in my tanks...

intresting read:
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html

[triggerfreak]

I run one on all my tanks.No matter what.Andy stray voltage can kill.I prefer to be cautious.

[MikePowell]

i use one. you should use one especially if you have an older house, such as mine, or if you just removed wood floors recently. they are just a precautionary device that every tank should have as well as a GFCI. GET ONE!

[racksteris]

I also use one in every tank I own. A grounding probe has to be used with a GFCI reference before it will work properly. Most GFCI trip range are 5 mA ground faults. If all your equipment are plug in to a GFCI including the grounding probe any ground faults over 5mA SHOULD trip the circuit.

[racksteris]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11451823#post11451823 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by m2434
No here - prefer not to induce current in my tanks...

intresting read:
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html


''In reality, induced voltages and currents will be small... so small that they are probably NOT an issue for the safety of the aquarist.''

Just a quote i got from that article. {probably NOT }

[Crossbow]

Thank you to all who responded!

[cczarnik]

After my submersible heater came apart and electocuted the whole tank, killed all corals, inverts, and fish, contaminated the LR, LS, plumbing, and silicone with copper, I consider a ground probe and GFCI a must.

It was without a doubt the most complete destruction that I've ever seen of a reef tank, short of a tank coming apart and flooding the house.

A ground probe was the first thing I bought when I started over.... I won't make that mistake again!

Chuck

[charleskeller]

cczarnik...sorry about your tank being fried! i had a heater's remote thermostat short out on me. i didn't have a grounding probe but luckily i was home and heard the sparking and could unplug it before it killed everything or crack my sump. the water
smelled like burnt plastic for about 4-5 days.


One good piece of advice I got from this guys article is to make everything external. That would eliminate the need for a probe and the risk of loosing all power. Although he mentioned using an internal heater there are in-line heaters that should work.

So the addition of a grounding probe will cause the GFI switch to trip when a short occurs, killing the power to the system on that switch, assuming it is grounded somewhere other than the GFI plug. Correct? Hopefully I am home if this ever happens or else the tank with go without power putting the livestock in jeopardy.

IMO...make everything in your system external as the article suggestest and use a probe.

[racksteris]

''Voltage is not the problem, current is. Voltages can exist without there being any current. For example, birds sitting on a power line may be in direct contact with 10,000 volts, but they are not electrocuted. Why? Because no current is flowing through their bodies. Voltage is the “potential” or force that drives electrons through a conductor. The actual flow of electrons is the “current”. It is current that kills. Were one of the birds sitting on the power line to simultaneously touch one of the other wires on the transmission pole, a current path would be created (through the bird) and it would be electrocuted (and probably incinerated as well). So what are you doing when you add a grounding probe to your aquarium? You are providing a current path that might not already exist.''

This is from that article.

I would rather that grounding probe to providing a current path to ground then MY HANDS AND FEET.

[reefmaster805]

GFCI and Grounding equipment are the two best safety precautions us reefers can provide for our homes and aquariums.

[reefergeorge]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11482147#post11482147 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by racksteris
''Voltage is not the problem, current is. Voltages can exist without there being any current. For example, birds sitting on a power line may be in direct contact with 10,000 volts, but they are not electrocuted. Why? Because no current is flowing through their bodies. Voltage is the “potential” or force that drives electrons through a conductor. The actual flow of electrons is the “current”. It is current that kills. Were one of the birds sitting on the power line to simultaneously touch one of the other wires on the transmission pole, a current path would be created (through the bird) and it would be electrocuted (and probably incinerated as well). So what are you doing when you add a grounding probe to your aquarium? You are providing a current path that might not already exist.''

I would have to totally agree. I would never use a GP in my tank. Just use a few gfci circuits and you will be ok, and Ccz your fish were not electrocuted.

[MikePowell]

USE A GROUNDING PROBE. if your house house is old and wiring is out of date you need to use one. if you have new wiring then you might want one to be on the safe side to remove stray voltage.

[MikePowell]

i once had a tank that had a few gfcis on it but i still got shocked. once i put a GP on it the shocking stopped. Another thing is that if you have wood floors you will neutralize the shock but if you have concrete or tile and have stray voltage you will feel it if not properly grounded. i am saying this b/c alot of people who live in the north usually have wood floors.

[Crossbow]

Thank you all for your replies. I do believe that I am going to use one. I have wood floors but old wiring. My house was built in 1885.

[racksteris]

Most of the old house only have 2 prong receptacle. They don't carry the third ground prong. Too avoid shock with this type of wiring, A GFCI receptacle should be installed in the location of your tank.

Hey Crossbow, was your house really built in 1885?

[reefergeorge]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11489415#post11489415 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MikePowell
i once had a tank that had a few gfcis on it but i still got shocked. once i put a GP on it the shocking stopped.

So you put a band aid over your problem. You either had a malfunctioning part, or it was just a static charge. If you have a PH or something leaking voltage, and add a GP. Now you have a current running through your tank, and every time a fish swims through it it gets a jolt.

[Crossbow]

Yes racksteris, it was built in 1885 by a doctor. Lots of neat features like a pocket door, nice moldings, very nice hand carved fireplace, granite and brick foundation. I did have a GFI installed by my electrician, but I am going to use the probe as well.

[racksteris]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11492885#post11492885 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Crossbow
Yes racksteris, it was built in 1885 by a doctor. Lots of neat features like a pocket door, nice moldings, very nice hand carved fireplace, granite and brick foundation. I did have a GFI installed by my electrician, but I am going to use the probe as well.

WOW .. sounds cool...

[nikygm]

My temperature was slowly dropping, the one day i put my hand in it felt really cold so i checked my temp probe and it was at 74.6 degrees so i check my heater and it was all cracked and a piece was missing, i was lucky i never got shocked

[MikePowell]

reefergeorge-

what else could i habe done. my house has two wires only, with out updating the wires in my house i found this the most effective way to "fix" the problem. i did try the GFCI outlet but it did not prevent the stray voltage in my tank. it was not a shock from a short circuit just some stray voltage. my problem was that the tank or any of the pumps or lights were not grounded through the recepticle.

[m2434]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11496453#post11496453 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MikePowell
reefergeorge-

what else could i habe done. my house has two wires only, with out updating the wires in my house i found this the most effective way to "fix" the problem. i did try the GFCI outlet but it did not prevent the stray voltage in my tank. it was not a shock from a short circuit just some stray voltage. my problem was that the tank or any of the pumps or lights were not grounded through the recepticle.

What do you mean by stray voltage. If you test saltwater it will always show a voltage, this is because of the ionic nature of saltwater - there is always a voltage potential and when you test it, you are creating a ground and causing current to flow. So you get a reading, however this is sort of a "false" reading because it actually is caused by you and goes away once you stop testing, or remove the ground probe. Readings of up to 10 volts are fairly common due to the ion flow in the salt water alone and not usually a concern.

The concern is a piece of equipment malfunctioning and electrocuting you when you put your hand in the tank! If you test the water and get a reading of 120V you are in trouble, and your fish are probably dead...

[cczarnik]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11487489#post11487489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefergeorge
I would have to totally agree. I would never use a GP in my tank. Just use a few gfci circuits and you will be ok, and Ccz your fish were not electrocuted.

Just came back to this thread.. I appreciate the comment, and although I'm not a professional electrician I have seen this first hand. And such losses give cause to really think about what went wrong! When the heater blew, the hot and common wires of the heater were both exposed to the water. This effectively put the water and the inhabitants in the current path and they suffered the consequences. Just like the bird example that has been used. And this tank WAS on a GFCI, but it didn't matter as the heater was non grounded, so the voltage/current took the same "hot to common" path-- the GFCI never saw the difference.

When I put the ground probe in an alternate path was created that allows stray current to exit through that ground path, which would trip the GFCI.

I'm not really worried about stray voltage, and the voltage / current comments are valid. But I'll tell you when you have a 15A 120V circuit exposed directly to the tank, you got both. And if there isn't a ground path around a GFCI there is a BIG problem.

There's a real easy way to test this ;) Cut off the cord of an ungrounded lamp, plug the cord into your GFCI and stick it into the tank. No ground probe- no GFCI trip. Your livestock won't be too happy though I'll assure you... Do the same thing with a ground probe and you'll see an immediate GFCI trip. Try this little experiment at your own risk:D I've learned my lesson! Chuck

[cherubfish pair]

Okay cczarnik, I need both a GFCI and ground probe. Do I plug the ground probe into the GFCI, or into the wall? And do I put the ground probe into the display or sump? I was told if I have electrical equipment in the display I need a ground probe in there too.

[cczarnik]

Doesn't matter. Ground is ground. As long as your GFCI is wired correctly and the neutral is isolated from ground per the GFCI instructions, you're OK. Plug the probe into any outlet, or if it has an eyelet, screw it to a known ground, the screw that holds an outlet cover on should work, or to the frame of any large metal applicance, computer, or anything that plugs in with a 3 prong cord. This is assuming your house is 3 wire (99% are). I think there are even solutions for 2 wire, but others should chime in here.

I haven't had a display/sump yet, and haven't really done the research on multiple ground probes. My guess is the water column in the plumbing would be sufficient to carry stray current from one tank to the other and find the probe. But it's not like they're that much $$.

Maybe what happened to me was 1/1,000,000.. All it would take was for the mfg's to start grounding these devices and things would be much safer. Kind of silly to think that we submerge high voltage devices into corrosive solutions and leave them there for years. One day somebody's going to get killed. Then comes the massive recall and we'll all look back on it as an idea as stupid as lawn darts. Ha! Chuck

[cherubfish pair]

So when there's a stray voltage the GFCI gets tripped and the power goes off for your entire system?

Is there some kind of alarm you can get to go off when this happens? Otherwise your livestock can be in a very lethal situation.

[aspinn]

aye i will be using one for sure once i get it set up... at the moment our house is old... the wiring is poorly done so i dont trust it at all (not to mention we have all carpets and ud be amazed how many times i shocked myself --- although does static shock bug the tank at all?... either way ill be going for it... i wasnt sure if static shock does bug them or not lol (you think it would lol) like the others said better say then sorry

[cczarnik]

Cherub, You could always go for something like:

http://shop.talkaboutsleep.com/?action=item.display&category=power-failure-alarm&page=90100

On my big tank I'll keep the external sump return pump off of the GFCI, so if I do get a trip the circulation won't stop completely. It's grounded and not submerged, and would prevent a crash.