importance of allowing pod population to mature

[FUA]

Recently I was listening to a podcast of 120gallons.com. The guest speaker, whose name slips me now, was talking about the importance of allowing a tank, along with its beneficials (ie:amphipods, copepods, benthic animals, and bacteria), to mature before adding a single fish or invertabrate. I remember being not less than attacked in a negative fashion for uttering this notion in a previous thread. The fact is nothing happens quickly in a reef tank and I have been running a tank since last spring with a sump without fish or invertabrates. I have a remote DSB with chaeto and a section which I term a bentic zone that is unlit, with an incredible amount of sponces and tunictes thriving. I have so many little critters in the macro algae that I can't even find pictures or descriptions of half of them anywhere. the display portion of the tank is not illuminated so that I don't see any undesirable algaes for the time being.

My point is that awsome things are happening in my tank and it is all do to patience. I've started a few other tanks and it is my feeling that by adding fish prematurely has led to the decimation of any kind of pod population. All I am suggesting is that if you have the patience to try this out and let us know if you have similar results. Obviously this would be a lengthy experiement before any results are noticed so please post from time to time to keep the tread alive. Also, since I know there are probably plenty of people gritting there teeth right now and couldn't disagree with my anymore. I welcome critisicism or opposition of any sort just to keep things interesting. So please post.

andrew

[McTeague]

Got any pics of your stuff?

[FUA]

yeah I can try and get some today, I always have trouble posting them though.

[McTeague]

Try using Photobucket. You create a Photobucket account and then upload the pics to Photobucket. Once they are uploaded to Photobucket there will be links below the pictures in Photobucket that you can copy and paste into your posts here.

[stingythingy45]

If you have enough LR with plenty of hiding places you'll have a nice pod/whatever population.
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it's not there.
BTW....not gritting teeth.

[snorvich]

Probably last spring is far long enough to develop wonderful critters. Is your remote deep sand bed clean on top? How deep is it?

[FUA]

well I actually have two DSB in opposite ends of the sump. the return is in the middle where both ends fall into. Partially the reason I have waited so long is because I am a major procrastinator. I have a 150w metal halide that is ready to go, all I need to do is build a canopy for it and I will be able to transfer over corals. But like I said I drag my feet, partly to work and partly to my two beautiful young boys. Enough with excuses I guess. This is only my second time setting up a sump/refugium and this much younger sump is much more active. I haven't quite figured out exactly why this is.

[jab502]

I completely disagree. I don't believe that slowly adding fish and other livestock to a properly cycled tank (3-6 weeks max) would decimate the pod population. A sump or refugium with macroalgae and proper amounts of live rock give pods plenty of opportunity to maintain a healthy population. If you happen to like a tank with a very high pod population and sponges and tunicates, then your theory probably makes for a really cool tank. But, to say that your tank is healthier than some of the people who add livestock on a more traditional schedule does not make sense to me. You just have high populations of interesting little creatures because your tank has little or no predators. I personally believe that reef tanks can be built (meaning the addition of livestock including corals) much faster than conventional wisdom often suggests.

[FUA]

jab502, thank you for your POV. I don't 100% think this is the best way to do things or it makes my tank healthier than anyone else's, believe me there are a lot of things that I could do differently. It is just something I tried and am happy with the results, plus I do love all the little critters. I just like to try new things and believe that the hobby will prosper from people doing things slightly out of the box. Happy Reefing!!

[BigRedSpecial]

I completely agree. While it certainly may be possible to have a thriving pod population even when things are rushed, I can't imagine waiting doing anything but helping, probably in a very big way.

I waited over 6 months before adding anything but hermits and snails; in the time, I noticed the pods grow in waves... first an explosion of copopods, which lasted about a month then resided, followed shortly after by a huge explosion of isopods, then an explosion of amhipods (and a drastic lowering of the isopod population). Finally, the three balanced out and I now have large numbers of copo, iso and amphi, in addition to large numbers of mysis and others.

I may be wrong, but I'm guessing having predators present during the evolution would have thrown a major wrench into the gears.

[hamdogg08]

Are you putting anything into the tank nutrition wise into the tank? I'd be concerned that without some sort of food going in, there won't be any kind of growth or anything like that. Maybe everything just lives off the algae...

[jab502]

I may be wrong as I am no expert, and am just basing my opinion off of my limited personal experience. In my personal tank I allowed it to cycle for only 1 month and began adding fish and coral fairly quickly after that. My tank appears to have abundant amounts of pods and other life forms. I have kept a fat and happy mandarin fish since about the 3 month mark of my tank (tank is now 2 years old) that feeds all day on pods. I can see visual evidence of pods and mysis all over my tank. I think this is just a situation having more to do with preference then right or wrong. But for somebody new to this who is really excited about adding fish or coral to their new tank (as I was when I started) I believe that is is perfectly feasible to start and maintain a very healthy system without waiting 6-12 months to add livestock.

[FUA]

I agree with you jab502.

Yes hamdogg08 I throw a couple bits of dry food and zooplankton once a week or whenever I remember.

[hamdogg08]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11484757#post11484757 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jab502
I may be wrong as I am no expert, and am just basing my opinion off of my limited personal experience. In my personal tank I allowed it to cycle for only 1 month and began adding fish and coral fairly quickly after that. My tank appears to have abundant amounts of pods and other life forms. I have kept a fat and happy mandarin fish since about the 3 month mark of my tank (tank is now 2 years old) that feeds all day on pods. I can see visual evidence of pods and mysis all over my tank. I think this is just a situation having more to do with preference then right or wrong. But for somebody new to this who is really excited about adding fish or coral to their new tank (as I was when I started) I believe that is is perfectly feasible to start and maintain a very healthy system without waiting 6-12 months to add livestock.

How big is your tank? I know there are a bunch of mandarin purists out there, but I'm wondering if 100 gallons set up for one year is a little more than is actually needed for a mandarin.

[KyleO]

I think you are absolutely right about patients. Not enough of us have enough of it. I am certainly guilty of being too impatient to get this or that.

As I agree with the fact that a well established DSB and Pod population is very beneficial to any Reef, I think the most important piece of the puzzle is the Refugium. You absolutely need a place for Pods to breed. Even with a lot of LR and hiding places in your display, the Pod population is getting worked over pretty good by fish and inverts (especially wrasses and dragon gobys).

The Pods need a sanctuary to reproduce and proliferate. They also need a way back into the display. A lot of Reefers think that the Refugium is only for Macro growth and nutrient export. Every time I mention this I get a lot of negative responses........but, FUA, you have the right idea. Just make sure your Refugium is fully active up to and beyond the populating on the display.

[FUA]

jab502, I guess also why I am not in such a hurry to add fish and inverts is because I already have two smaller tanks established that I add struff to. I also remember how much I was chomping at the bit to add stuff when I first started. The excitement actually never ends no matter how long you have been in the hobby Iam sure. One of the first persons that put this idea in my head is my LFS. which is a nice notion that the LFS would rather see your tank ready for additions than just selling, selling, selling to make a buck and putting you off to a bad start. I know that I am not an expert either, but I don't think six months is too much to ask while only adding a clean up crew to get things going.

[hamdogg08]

One of my favorite parts of this hobby is seeing all the creepy crawlies that come on your live rock. There are so many crazy hitchhikers there, that it's almost better than having fish swimming around sometimes. I'd advise anyone to try to get all live rock as opposed to the dry stuff. There are just too many cool things out there like all the pods and worms not to get live.

[FUA]

thanks for the kind words KyleO. I agree about the idea of a refugium being more than just a spot for nutrient export. I have seen treads with monster refugium/sumps comparitive to the size of the show tank. I have also seen people getting creative and making a 1000g lagoon with lots of sand and other critters and inverts that you could never possibly keep in a reef display. I don't know if these people let these systems mature or to what degree they did. But I think that the use of multiple supporting tanks and segregated zones can highly benefit a reef tank. There are so many different directions that this topic can branch off to. I guess lets keep the discussion going in whatever direction it seems to go but with keeping the main ideal of 1.allowing a tank to mature adequetly 2. and the benefit all these little critters bring to the system. I am only saying this because I am seeing myself drifting from the main idea but I am also very interested in all side topics. Happy Reefing!!

[jadeguppy]

This is why I have a fuge. Even with a heavily stocked tank, I have tons of pods. If I had room, I'd get a mandarin, but as it is I need to wait for a larger tank to put everyone in.

[Stealth91RT]

I totaly agree waiting to put any type of animal in the tank allows for the population of creatures to thrive with no preditors. But i just couldn't wait to add fish, corals, ect. so what i did was set up a small 10gal just for pods and what not to grow and add them to the tank and sump at night with a turkey baster on a regular rotation just like i feed my fish.

[K' Family Reef]

i agree / i disagree
:confused:


what you are saying makes sense in ways
that is waiting for things to 'mature' in the tank - it certainly cant hurt... and certainly would do a world of good overall for things

but what is the point in doing that ???

especially if

one has a 'fuge'...
the same thing you are postulating is happening at same time in the fuge - w/ a continual cycle that continues to grow exponentially in the same way you are referring to as long as the fuge continues to be a fuge (and not adding predators/fish to it)

besides
this is a hobby and w/ a huge 'enjoyment' factor... one to be enjoyed by all who come within view.

if one has the patience to wait out
6mos to a year before they start adding anything... by that time it might be time to move to another house or have a baby - then the reef will no longer be on the 'menu' so to speak - in the process how much electricity/RESOURCES were wasted - waiting it out?

what fun is that anyway???

like XMAS '06
i had a fluorescently lited cloudy 125 sitting in my living room (just added sand) when my family/inlaws/friends all came over... everyone was like what is that :(

i tried to pacify them by saying
wait and see - next year you wont believe the difference :dance: ......... there will be corals and fish and rocks and plants (and majanos, aiptasia, flatworms, hydroids, unknown mite like critters ETC ETC)...


flash forward to XMAS '07

could not have imagined this year
them coming over and saying (again) "what is that?" :( (still??? after one year?:lol: ) and it still looking the same - having sat right in the center of our living room/family area for over a year (((empty)))...

what fun would that have been ???



so i agree w/ you in the 'purest' sense - in theory.
:thumbsup:

yet disagree in the 'hobbiest'/real world everyday sense of things.
;)

[K' Family Reef]

i think the idea you are talking about is becoming more common today in this hobby - as evidenced by the number of fuges people are adding to their system.

in 6 mos their system (w/ a fuge)
is probably = to a much 'longer' established system that doesnt have one...

so moral of story is...

rather then needing to have patience
and waiting forever to enjoy the fruits of ones labor/efforts...

just add a fuge and get the same benefit!


they are becoming so common these days
(for reasons you are mentioning in this thread!) that at some point soon will probably be as common as using a skimmer on ones reef - iow one wouldnt reef w/out it!

i added a 50gal dedicated fuge to my system
making the overall volume around 210gallons... the mysis population are actually unbelievable in there and in the main display... pods are everywhere etc... and the system has been set up for only about a year and the fuge for only around 6 mos - had i added the fuge sooner would have been that much better by now!

[FUA]

WarrenAmy&Maddy, I see where you are coming from with your logic. But a lot of interesting things do happen in a reef without coral and fish. Although I do fully agree that the majority of people get into the hobby because the want the fully stocked tank of their dreams packed with SPS and beautiful fish. But consider the option for maybe someone that can't stock there tank right away or maybe they have frags filling out in a seperate pre-existing tank. Probably the best time to try something like this would be when someone is upgrading so they have enjoyment in the hobby while they are cooking up a healthy reef in their upgrade. I agree that for a large percentage of beginners this is not the most exciting route to take. But for someone upgrading it might be a fun notion. Also if you have MH it may be best to save that energy while the tank is balancing out and try to avert the nasty arrayments of nuisance algae that we all know and hate. Just some thoughts and I hope that my replies are not taken as demeaning or anything similar. So happy reefing and thank you all for showing your interest in this topic and sharing your thoughts. Please keep your thoughts coming.

[FUA]

WarrenAmy&Maddy, I also believe that the addition of a fuge can be inmeasurable. It helps in so many different facits of the hobby and I think one has the resources and space one should be added to every reef. I still am somewhat new to reefing and love to learn something new about it every day, or at least have a new thought or theory about it every day.

[FUA]

bump

[IceWish]

i think most reefers know that the better thing to do is to wait but very few of us have the will power to actually do