trate levels off the chart.. pls help twitching fish

[metancute]

can any1 offer a suggestion? i have high nitrate levels that are above the chart & my puffer has started twitching for the last week & is pale. i started this 90gallon tank approx 2 months ago & everything seemed fine. i read online that i could use play sand so i did. they did not have the brand that was mentioned so we took "sakrete natural play sand". after speaking to some1 @ a fish specialty store they say it might be the sand & that I can get an answer here...

please help my puffy survive this!!

[bertoni]

[welcome]

That sand is safe to use, as far as all the reports I've seen. The nitrate level would have to be extremely high to cause a problem, so I suspect the issue is elsewhere.

I would do a series of large (20-30%) water changes, most likely, but if you post all your parameters, we might be able to help more.

What else is in the tank besides the puffer?

[metancute]

i have 150lbs of that sand, 1 tang, 2 triggers, 3 hermit crabs, 1 damsel & my puffer & 1 anemone. i was told that i should have a wet/dry filter instead of my fluval 405 & that i need a better skimmer instead of my seaclone... do u have any ideas on how i can bring those nitrates down??? i feel so bad & i know he's suffering. should i replace the sand with live sand? i did almost a 50% water change last week & the levels are still way to high. we have been using only ro/di water

[metancute]

the nitrite not the nitrate is at a toxic level...

[bertoni]

I don't think changing the sand will have any effect. The Fluval (and the wet-dry) are often reported to cause nitrate problems. It's unlikely that the nitrate is bothering the puffer, though.

A 50% water change would cut the nitrate level in half, which might not be detectable with the kit. You could try diluting the tank water with fresh saltwater, say 3 parts fresh saltwater to 1 part tank water, and testing that.

Small amounts of nitrite will confuse nitrate test kits, so that might be an issue.

If the ammonia level in the tank is fine, I'd suspect the problem is more likely to be aggression or disease. If there were signs of gasping, I might suspect a lack of oxygen.

[oct2274]

can you post all of your water parameters and tell us what test kits you are using for each

ammonia
nitrite
nitrate
pH
alk
salinity - number and what do you use to check it

I would take a sample of water into the a local fish store and have them test it to see if the results match yours. nitrates off the scale in a tank that has been up two months sounds pretty strange unless the fluval is very dirty.

[bertoni]

How high is the nitrite? Nitrite is not generally a problem in saltwater environments. Nitrite is toxic in freshwater, though.

[metancute]

he was doing fine & now he gasps for air & twitches.. we have 2 8 inch air bars that should make enough oxygen?

[bertoni]

The air bars probably aren't doing much. How much water circulation does the tank have? Is the SeaClone running currently?

[metancute]

the salinity is 1.02 ... i am pretty new to this and i used 2 different test kits from petco "quick dip - 6 tests in 1" & something else. today i took a sample to the fish store & they told me that the nitrites were toxic & they told me to do a water change every 3 days & add stress zyme everyday.
originally every level looked good & now the nitrates are between "okay & safe - 40-80ppm" the nitrite is very toxic, the alkalinity is between 120 & 180ppm & the ph is approx 7.8. what can i do to bring the nitrites down???? unknowingly i was overfeeding them so i'll stop that now but what else?

[metancute]

the seaclone is running everyday along with the fluval 405 filter.. what other ways can i get him more oxygen?

[bertoni]

Well, I'm not sure whether the problem is oxygen, but some powerheads to add some flow might help. For that size tank, I'd have at least 900 gph of flow in total, but less might be fine. I don't know of any good data on the minimum required.

Has an ammonia test been run lately?

[metancute]

can u tell me what kind of powerhead? i read on another site that a maxijet 1200 is good but when i bought the skimmer that came with it or is it something else?

i thought the ammonia & nitrites were the same?

[bertoni]

I have used Maxi-Jets, and a couple of 1200s should be fine for your tank. They are reliable. The newer pumps, such as the Koralia and the Seio pumps, might be better for corals, since they give a broader, gentler flow.

Ammonia is very different from nitrite:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

Ammonia is very toxic.

[spike78]

Is there any way the fish store will take your fish off your hands for a couple months? It sounds like your tank isn't fully cycled and is not ready for the livestock you have.

I recommend trying to unload the fish and start over. Do some research, restart your tank, and take it really slow. At this point it seems like you will be jumping from emergency to emergency and it's really tough to get ahead like that.

[jmjohnson]

Once you solve the nitrite probem, the wet/dry will build up nitrAte quickly. I would opt for a different filtration type. A refugium would be nice.

[Percula9]

Your tank may have been cycled, but the overfeeding was to much for your bio-filter to handle. Eventually the bacteria will catch up. You need to do some water changes to alleviate the problem. The reason nitrite causes a problem is that the fish can't transport oxygen well because the nitrite attaches to the hemoglobin and interferes with the bloods ability to carry O2. This is called brown blood disease. The fish will exhibit rapid breathing and gasping. Is there live rock in the tank? You should have used live sand to begin with. Put more live rock in to add more biological filtration.

[bertoni]

The article I posted has some data on the lethal dose for nitrite for various saltwater species. The lethal points are over 140 ppm, and often far over.

[tmz]

How long have you had this fish? Could you describe the symptoms in more detail? How are your other fish doing?
As noted above it takes a very large amount of nitrite to harm salt water fish due to the abundance of chlorides in salt water. It is a very common misconception carried over from freshwater that nitrites are highly toxic in salt water.

[metancute]

does any 1 think replacing the sand with live sand & adding live rock will help? i cant find a powerhead that is for a 90 gallon tank.. i can only find for a 75 or 70g. can i use 2? a 70g powerhead & a 20g?

[ClayWagner]

The sand you have will "seed" as long as it has either cycled or there is some live sand present in your tank. I wouldn't suggest replacing the sand as this will cause even more stress to your fish. Sounds like it's either the Fluval (have been known for gunking up and causing high nitrate/ite), not enough beneficial bacteria, or too weak of a skimmer (seaclone doesn't sound like enough for that much bioload). Don't ever do a 50% water change unless it's an emergency - 20-30% tops. I'd suggest small frequent water changes and maybe a change of some equipment. As far as flow goes, a cheap and very efficient way are the Hydor Koralia's. I have two #3's on my 90 gallon (@35 a piece). They aren't necessarily powerheads because they give an even spread flow across the tank. Maybe I missed, but do you have live rock? Live rock is pretty much a neccessity to reefing and helping stability.

[bertoni]

Adding some live rock might help with the nitrate level over time, but it'll need to be very well cured before it's added.

If the ammonia level is zero, I suspect a disease or aggression.

[tmz]

I also suspect a disease or aggression. Water quality issues are important and you need to address them but as far as your puffer is concerned figuring out what is ailing it is most urgent.

[metancute]

i just wanted to say thx for everyones help!!! although i still have a problem my nitrites are going down & my puffer is getting back his color & breathing better. i think it was the sand all along!! i replaced the sand with live sand & did a 40% water change & added a koralia 4 powerhead & now my nitrates have gone down 2 shades already & are at a "stress" level instead of toxic. i'm hoping that in a couple of days it can all be normal! this is definitely a great message board for advice!!! please wish me luck!!! i think my puffer will make it. are there any other suggestions for regular maintenance?? i'm learning day by day!