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bdare
01/04/2008, 01:09 PM
As some of you may have seen in the other thead I mailed some Reef Crystals to Aquarium Systems to be tested.

This afternoon I got a call from Bob Studt, the Quality Controll manager. He said they tested my salt 3 times each with very similar results. At 1.026:

Mg: 1150
Ca: 380

He stated that currently there are no batch numbers on buckets so there is no way to track if a bucket is good or bad.

He also apologized to everyone who is having these troubles but explained they can not send out salt to everyone who quotes low numbers on an internet thread.

If you would like your salt replaced by Aquarium Systems you'll need to mail them a sample. I find this pretty resonable... Although I'm not sure what it is yet, Bob did tell me he'd throw in some goodies for my trouble. If your salt is low, I'm sure he'll do the same for you...

Ben

Mr. Ugly
01/04/2008, 01:55 PM
Thanks Ben. Good to know.

Despite the confirmation from Bill's tests, I kept thinking I might have tested incorrectly, and was about to do another batch of tests.

Yesterday, I made a ~2 liter batch Randy's 35ppt standard... weighed everything to the nearest .01 gram on a Mettler balance, lol.

lactose
01/04/2008, 02:21 PM
I too had been doing multiple tests with different kits to see if there was an error on my side and while there always could be this was the same measurements I was getting on the first of the 4 buckets i picked up from the df&s coral conference. I will send in a sample and then move on to testing the other buckets.

Thanks.

USC-fan
01/04/2008, 02:36 PM
Yeah I have also doubt my tests. I went ahead and brought all new test kits and even some calibration fluid for my refractometer. lol

What salt did he replace? The whole bucket? Might be worth sending in a sample if i can get the bucket replace.

Got to say i'm glad drf&s didn't have to eat the cost!! At least I don't have to worry about finding a new salt mix.

Please keep us update on how the new salt tests!!

bdare
01/04/2008, 02:44 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11521562#post11521562 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by USC-fan
Yeah I have also doubt my tests. I went ahead and brought all new test kits and even some calibration fluid for my refractometer. lol

What salt did he replace? The whole bucket? Might be worth sending in a sample if i can get the bucket replace.

Got to say i'm glad drf&s didn't have to eat the cost!! At least I don't have to worry about finding a new salt mix.

Please keep us update on how the new salt tests!!

Yes,

They are replacing the whole bucket. I expained to Bob that the good folks and Drs Foster and Smith had already sent me a replacement bucket, but he insisted on sending me one as well...

I also would not be so sure that the Drs aren't eating the costs of the salt they are sending out. As I stated the Aquarium Systems folks want to verify the salt is actually bad. Without batch numbers on the bucket they have no way to tell who's salt is good and who's is bad without testing it. The good Drs could just be sending out salt because this is a wide spread issue and they are key on customer service and satisfaction!

I have not tested the replacement bucket that I recieved from the Drs, but I'll test both buckets in time and let you know my results.

For now it is just good to know that the manufactuer is standing behind thier product and ensuring customer satisfaction.

Ben

USC-fan
01/04/2008, 02:57 PM
Wow you got lucky 3 for the price of 1! lol.

bdare
01/04/2008, 02:59 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11521760#post11521760 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by USC-fan
Wow you got lucky 3 for the price of 1! lol.

True, but the verdict is still out on how much I'll spend on supplements to bring the salt to the right levels... Especially if the second bucket from the Drs tests low as well...

xinumaster
01/04/2008, 05:54 PM
Just tested my tank sw parameters last night. After I changed 45g of water.
alk =12dkh
salinity 1.024
CA = 360ppm
mg = 1100ppm

Salt was from a bucket that I ordered last Feb. I got a couple more buckets that I just ordered 3mo ago but I haven't opened this buckets yet. I might open them up tomorrow and test it too.

xinumaster
01/04/2008, 06:29 PM
To test each buckets of my RC, how much RODI water do I need to add for 1/2 cup of salt?

bdare
01/04/2008, 06:30 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11523195#post11523195 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xinumaster
To test each buckets of my RC, how much RODI water do I need to add for 1/2 cup of salt?
About 1 gallon.

USC-fan
01/04/2008, 06:30 PM
1Gal

bertoni
01/04/2008, 07:03 PM
Approximately 1 gallon. I'd measure the SG with a calibrated device before testing.

Jorgens
01/04/2008, 07:32 PM
Hmm interesting. I know the Drs. are fantastic on customer service. What do you have for contact info in case some os use have bad buckets as well? I regularly order from the Drs. for salt. I'm off to test as I've been fighting browning sps. I do not normally test anything other than SG on new water.

Good work and thanks!

bdare
01/04/2008, 07:44 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11523707#post11523707 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jorgens
Hmm interesting. I know the Drs. are fantastic on customer service. What do you have for contact info in case some os use have bad buckets as well? I regularly order from the Drs. for salt. I'm off to test as I've been fighting browning sps. I do not normally test anything other than SG on new water.

Good work and thanks!
Gershwin Asari
Quality Control
Aquarium Systems/Instant Ocean
8141 Tyler Blvd.
Mentor, Ohio 44060

Billybeau1
01/04/2008, 11:50 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11522969#post11522969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xinumaster
Just tested my tank sw parameters last night. After I changed 45g of water.
alk =12dkh
salinity 1.024
CA = 360ppm
mg = 1100ppm

Salt was from a bucket that I ordered last Feb. I got a couple more buckets that I just ordered 3mo ago but I haven't opened this buckets yet. I might open them up tomorrow and test it too.

That is a good bucket. I expect those numbers at 1.024

If mixed at 1.0264 (35ppt) your calcium and magnesium numbers will be more in line with the RC I know.

1/2 cup of RC in 1 gallon of water will not yield 1.0264

Thats just the way it is made.

You will need close to 3/4 cup of salt in 1 gallon of water to yield 1.0264 Actually its a little less but certainly more than 1/2 cup.

For what its worth, I've tested about 10 different salt mixes and none of them yielded 1.0264 with exactly 1/2 cup of salt mix. Some were a little better than others but thats a test I'm working on for another day.

When you talk cost per gallon, it is good to know how much salt it takes to make 35 ppt. I believe this makes a big difference in the long run. :)

MinibowMatt
01/05/2008, 07:11 AM
this is not the news I wanted to hear. I have been having issues too. I thought it was my mixing skills.



Up!

ArgonDreams
01/05/2008, 09:11 AM
The one thing thing that bothers me about this whole thing... How many of you are re-mixing the salts prior to mix on the entire bucket?

During shipment the salts settle into strata. I typically take 2 empty dry buckets and split my new salt between them and mix them back and forth until I get a true mix again. When I have not done this my testing shows very different levels depending on where I pulled from the bucket. (typically low Ca/Alk on the top of the bucket).

Do those of you who have had bad Ca measurements tried mixing the bucket back up prior to using the salt? Typically you only need to re-mix the salt initially since it's the multiple shipping and vibrations the bucket gets cause it to settle in this manner.

I would be curious to see if all or none of you do this recommended procedure?

For those that don't get what I am talking about, think of it like a bucket of rocks of different sizes (Which is essentially what this is) Give it anywhere from 7-10 days of vibration (Shipment) and then look into the bucket they will sort themselves into layers.

Mike O'Brien
01/05/2008, 09:52 AM
Does the Ca sink, or stay at the top ?

I do actually pour the salt back and fourth a few times to mix it. I don't like the covers you have to hit with a hammer, so I use an older one. But I'm not so sure that I go for the settling idea. I've never noticed variations in a bucket prior to mixing the salt the way I do.

Billybeau1
01/05/2008, 09:57 AM
While I'm sure some settling (separating) can occur, I have not seen too much of a problem over the years in my testing. And I test a lot. :)

AD87
01/05/2008, 03:12 PM
Gershwin Asari
Quality Control
Aquarium Systems/Instant Ocean
8141 Tyler Blvd.
Mentor, Ohio 44060

Will Gershwin Asari replace everyones salt that testing with low numbers if I send a sample? Do I pay for shipping?

bdare
01/05/2008, 03:15 PM
If you send them a salt sample and it truely is low, they will replace your salt. I paid for shipping.

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/05/2008, 03:54 PM
My concern with these sorts of screw ups is more along the lines of what else that we don't test for that they messed up. Not necessarily things that we can detect and adjust as necessary.

Mr. Ugly
01/05/2008, 06:02 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11528844#post11528844 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
My concern with these sorts of screw ups is more along the lines of what else that we don't test for that they messed up. Not necessarily things that we can detect and adjust as necessary. Exactly. I'm hoping that DF&S and ASI will be able to do more extensive testing than just of Ca and Mg.

I've been having random problems with SPS and LPS starting with this past summer. And I've really been wondering if there's something else going on with the salt.

I'll be asking ASI and DF&S about other tests when I send in my salt next week.

I may be able to get access to an ICP-MS for testing also.

Randy, any recommendations on what tests and procedures would be suitable for doing a more thorough investigation of this salt?

thx!

geoxman
01/05/2008, 07:41 PM
IMHO---DFS is not responsible for testing their salt.
The manufacturer is and not the seller. Do you expect them to test every bucket they sell in the future?? It all falls back on the maker and not the seller. Now if the seller gets a bad batch and they take care of it- then they are a very good seller with good customer service.
What responsibility is on the end consumer to test? None?

bdare
01/05/2008, 07:51 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11530381#post11530381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by geoxman
IMHO---DFS is not responsible for testing their salt.
The manufacturer is and not the seller. Do you expect them to test every bucket they sell in the future?? It all falls back on the maker and not the seller. Now if the seller gets a bad batch and they take care of it- then they are a very good seller with good customer service.
What responsibility is on the end consumer to test? None?

IMO the customers responsibility to test is due to livelyhood of his inhabitants. More than anything this should drive home to peole that you should ALWAYS test new salt before you put it in your tank... EVEN when it comes from one of the most trusted manufactures in the business!

bdare
01/05/2008, 08:05 PM
Ok... This stinks. The replacement bucket I recieved from Drs Foster and Smith is also low... Good thing I just placed an order with 2 Part Solutions today...

Billybeau1
01/05/2008, 11:14 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11528844#post11528844 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
My concern with these sorts of screw ups is more along the lines of what else that we don't test for that they messed up. Not necessarily things that we can detect and adjust as necessary.

I hear ya. The new bucket of RC I received was also extremely low in magnesium. about 970 @ 1.0264 when RC usually runs about 1260-1290.

Its funny, it seems to only be the buckets. I picked up a bag of RC at an lfs not to long ago and it measured 420 calcium and 1290 mag.

This my take some time for Marineland to get straightened out. But first they would have to admit they had a production problem and order a recall. I believe the majority of the users with bad buckets will just supplement and use it up. Some will ask for refunds or replacements but at least they wouldn't loose loyal customers.

Its kinda strange that this happened just when RC was overtaking IO as the king of salts to the hobbyist.

Mr. Ugly
01/06/2008, 12:02 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11530381#post11530381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by geoxman
IMHO---DFS is not responsible for testing their salt.
The manufacturer is and not the seller. Yep, agreed. I'd only be asking DF&S because they asked for samples as part of the investigation.

Like Randy said, what if there's a problem with something that we don't test for(normally).

What if there's a contaminant that can cause problems in our tanks?

Just like the contaminated pet food last year.

mrme
01/06/2008, 12:54 AM
I'm just so Glad i live in California and Buy Catalina Water.. and luckily that isn't taken from the shores.. but a few miles off the shores.
This is a great thread though, and good info.
I am Glad they are nice enough to replace the salt.

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/06/2008, 06:43 AM
Its kinda strange that this happened just when RC was overtaking IO as the king of salts to the hobbyist.

Maybe that's why. Increasing demand can sometimes lead manufacturers to cut corners or to bring on line different systems that might not be as bullet proof.

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/06/2008, 06:46 AM
Randy, any recommendations on what tests and procedures would be suitable for doing a more thorough investigation of this salt?

I guess the biggies or those that might cause an issue if off by much: chloride, sulfate, potassium, bromide, lithium, strontium, fluoride, borate, etc.

What is seawater
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php

SPStoner
01/06/2008, 06:51 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11531969#post11531969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
I hear ya. The new bucket of RC I received was also extremely low in magnesium. about 970 @ 1.0264 when RC usually runs about 1260-1290.

Its funny, it seems to only be the buckets. I picked up a bag of RC at an lfs not to long ago and it measured 420 calcium and 1290 mag.

This my take some time for Marineland to get straightened out. But first they would have to admit they had a production problem and order a recall. I believe the majority of the users with bad buckets will just supplement and use it up. Some will ask for refunds or replacements but at least they wouldn't loose loyal customers.

Its kinda strange that this happened just when RC was overtaking IO as the king of salts to the hobbyist.


That stinks, Billy, about the low mag. Just tested my bucket here yesterday and I am ok. (420cal 1280mag) but my pail is brand new (has the new free tshirt inside). I did just recalibrate my refractometer too using the 53ms solution. It was off by .002! I had been calibrating it with the pure water that came with it(it is the Sybon one that Premium Aquatics sells) I would imagine that the fact it is only being seen in pails and not bags furthers the theory that it is only one batch. I have to imagine that the batches are made seperately for each size container.

As for recall, I doubt that will happen, but who knows. Without batch numbers, that would open them up to taking back ALL the RC that is out there.

Also, as you say, RC is overtaking th regular IO as the top salt for the reef hobbyist, but it is still only a tiny tiny fraction of the sales compared to IO, barely a blip on the screen. Go into any pet supplies wholesaler, retailer, or mailorder house and just look at the inventory. I am just guessing, but overall it is probably still in the neighborhood of 1000 to 1 units sold of IO to RC. I attended the frag swap at DFS last summer and they gave tours of their warehouse to the public. There were probably 80 - 100 pallets of IO there and maybe 20 RC in the area they took us to, and they use a lot of the RC in their own coral farm.

scubadoo2
01/06/2008, 07:54 AM
IS AS making the RC in Ohio, or have they sent that process overseas?

bdare
01/06/2008, 07:58 AM
Made in Ohio.

USC-fan
01/06/2008, 01:14 PM
Well i found my problem. It wasn;t the RC at all. My refractometer was off, I brought some pinpoint 53ms and it read 37ppt on it.

New numbers @ 35ppt and temp:78
CA++ 420
Mg 1280
alk 13

:)

kngfisher
01/06/2008, 01:42 PM
2 buckets, same low mag levels......

1050ppm

so much for Reef Crystals....switching back to plain IO and will suppliment mag as needed.....explains why mag at 1050 in display and why coral grows seemed to slow.

GreshamH
01/06/2008, 03:56 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11525237#post11525237 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
That is a good bucket. I expect those numbers at 1.024


I'm sure it's a straight forward formula but how do you figure out the difference one might find in CA/MG/ALK levels at 1.024 to those at 1.026?

bertoni
01/06/2008, 04:55 PM
.024/.026 = .92, so multiply the 1.026 numbers by .92 to get the 1.024 estimates.

GreshamH
01/06/2008, 06:19 PM
You rock :)

Billybeau1
01/06/2008, 07:17 PM
SPStoner, I am happy to here you got a new bucket with those numbers. Thats the RC i know. This could mean the bad buckets are short lived. (Unless your bucket sat on the shelf for awhile. )

And yes USC-fan. We've been preaching to reefers all of 2007 about calibrating refracts with distilled water. Glad you tried the 53mS solution. Makes a world of difference in cal and mag. :)

mixed_reefer
01/06/2008, 08:15 PM
Hey now, wheres the shirt at in the bucket?
I did not even realize mine said it had a shirt in it (never opened it), so i broke it open and there is no shirt? I even dug into the salt a bit and still found nothing! Did they bury it under the salt or did fed ex rob me?

Billybeau1
01/06/2008, 09:54 PM
:lol:

Last time I checked, the only salt mix that gave a free t-shirt was Coralife, And they still do. But you don't have to dig. It's on the top. :D

Icefire
01/07/2008, 12:49 AM
yep got a clown and an angel t-shirt in my coralife :)

SPStoner
01/07/2008, 05:13 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11538678#post11538678 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
:lol:

Last time I checked, the only salt mix that gave a free t-shirt was Coralife, And they still do. But you don't have to dig. It's on the top. :D


According to a friend who works for a pet supplies wholesaler in New York, all the IO and RC they have received since late October has this free shirt in it. So, I am guessing that the bucket I'm using now is at the most 4 months old. Also, I have read somewhere before that IO puts the shirts on the very bottom of the pail at the request of retailers who were having them stolen when they were on top. Gives me a good excuse to mix the pail up anyhow:D


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b82/SPStoner/DSCN5350.jpg

SPStoner
01/07/2008, 05:15 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11537789#post11537789 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
Hey now, wheres the shirt at in the bucket?
I did not even realize mine said it had a shirt in it (never opened it), so i broke it open and there is no shirt? I even dug into the salt a bit and still found nothing! Did they bury it under the salt or did fed ex rob me?


I just noticed it actually says in fine print on the sticker that shirt is located at bottom of pail.

SPStoner
01/07/2008, 05:17 AM
DP

twon8
01/07/2008, 12:22 PM
my bucket of rc has the t-shirt inside and still had low levels, got it about a month ago from drfs

Thales
01/07/2008, 02:24 PM
I liked when there were towels in the buckets way more than shirts. Bring back the towels!

rbursek
01/09/2008, 08:00 AM
I had a batch of RC mixing for a water change yesterday, read this and tested it, Ca 320 at 1.026. Bought 3 buckets last fall from DR's F&S, very disappointed in RC after reading this, I have used there salt since I started in this hobby 18 months ago. Thanks for the home work.
Bob

AD87
01/09/2008, 08:25 AM
By last fall your talking about 10-11 of 2007 right, not 2006?

rbursek
01/09/2008, 08:34 AM
Yes, Oct of 07.
Bob

AD87
01/09/2008, 10:45 AM
Yeah your salt could be effective. Does anyone know if Instant Ocean will replace the salt if its bad?

SPStoner
01/09/2008, 10:51 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11558562#post11558562 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by speeddemonlsr
Yeah your salt could be effective. Does anyone know if Instant Ocean will replace the salt if its bad?


Just from reading the threads, if you feel yours is not up to par, you need to mail a small sample to Instant ocean to test and they will replace the whole bucket. The contact info is in one of these threads.

rbursek
01/09/2008, 03:06 PM
Just mailed my 3 samples in to IO, and talked with Dr's F&S CS, not to get anything from them but since they advertize that they use RC at there facility in there coral tanks what there up take was. He was aware of the situationand informative," Our personel found it coming up short too when they tested the water change solutions." Forums like this sure make companies customer orientated to keep there business and reputation. Bob

rbursek
01/09/2008, 03:16 PM
I could not understand why my Ca would go down from 425-450 after a 20% water change to about 350-375, I do one every 2-3 weeks, 30 gal. Drip Kalk, add 2 Fishes C Balance, and Turbo Calc. I do a water change and back to low Ca, Lets all give bDare a big ATA BOY!!!!!!!!
Bob

bdare
01/09/2008, 04:06 PM
Hey Bob,

Unfortunately, I can not take credit for these findings. There is another thread started by someone else who first posted the problems with RC. In that other thread I mentioned I would send in some salt. I simply started this thread so people could more easily see the results of the testing done by Aquarium Systems.

I am however glad you are more at ease!!

Ben

rbursek
01/09/2008, 05:05 PM
JUst came up from the lower levers were my sump/fuge are, did the water change yesterday, tonight, Ca 375, went from 425 to 375 with this bad RC, added C Balance and Turbo boost and Mag.
But as I said, we put are faith in these companies products and promises/specs, I own my own business, and I am acountable for all aspecs, I tell my employees, "if we have to go back to do it right, it is a double lose, we are there for free, and not on a new job making money"!!!! Good thing, they got the concept real fast.
Bob

rbursek
01/09/2008, 05:14 PM
JUst came up from the lower levers were my sump/fuge are, did the water change yesterday, tonight, Ca 375, went from 425 to 375 with this bad RC, added C Balance and Turbo boost and Mag.
But as I said, we put are faith in these companies products and promises/specs, I own my own business, and I am acountable for all aspecs, I tell my employees, "if we have to go back to do it right, it is a double lose, we are there for free, and not on a new job making money"!!!! Good thing, they got the concept real fast.
Bob

SPStoner
01/09/2008, 07:01 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11561429#post11561429 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rbursek
JUst came up from the lower levers were my sump/fuge are, did the water change yesterday, tonight, Ca 375, went from 425 to 375 with this bad RC, added C Balance and Turbo boost and Mag.
But as I said, we put are faith in these companies products and promises/specs, I own my own business, and I am acountable for all aspecs, I tell my employees, "if we have to go back to do it right, it is a double lose, we are there for free, and not on a new job making money"!!!! Good thing, they got the concept real fast.
Bob

Hey Bob,

That's wierd that DFs told you that as they posted in their forum that it was testing out ok. Also, wondering what size waterchanges you are doing? If your calcium is dropping from 425 to 375 in your display tank, the calcium in the new water would have to be significantly low. I'm no mathemetician or chemist, so maybe one one of the mods here can comment. For example, if you are doing a 20% change on your 120 gallon tank, or 24 gallons and you are testing your freshly made RC water at 320ppm, would that really drop your display by 50ppm? Not doubting your findings at all, just that if that's the case, I am seriously going to spend a lot more time doing tests myself:) That's a big drop in the display.

Mr. Ugly
01/09/2008, 08:51 PM
.8*425+.2*320=404

also

375=y*320+(1-y)*425

y=48% water change to get to 375

Mr. Ugly
01/09/2008, 08:53 PM
I first noticed the problem when my Mg was lower after water change. Makes for unhappy LPS.

SPStoner
01/10/2008, 05:07 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11563290#post11563290 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly
.8*425+.2*320=404

also

375=y*320+(1-y)*425

y=48% water change to get to 375



Thanks, Mr.Ugly! I am sure I learned this in high school but that was a LONG time ago!!:D So, check my math here. If using the example above, you have a 120 gallon tank that is measuring 420 calcium and you do a 20% water change that causes your display calcium to go down to 375, the water change water would have to be approximately only 200ppm calcium?? Wow!

RBursek- It looks like you should double check your tests man just to be safe, or you got a REALLY bad batch of salt.

Can the same formula you supplied, Mr Ugly, be used with other parameters, like mag?

Aquatic Noggin
01/10/2008, 11:26 AM
Can someone please post the link to the original thread when this problem was first discovered?

TIA- AN

Billybeau1
01/10/2008, 11:50 AM
I believe this was it.

www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1270094

StrategicReef
01/10/2008, 12:55 PM
Hello I started that other threaad, as it stands I use a seachem test kit for calcium it test 320 I know some do not like this test kit so it may be like 360-380 for another kit. But, low is low..

Seachem magnesium test also shows 1100 MG at best.

Just wanted to say for those worried about other params.. the salt seems OK after I boost CA with turbo calcium by 100PPM to about 425 ppm and MG by 200+PPM to about 1300PPM before water change.

I keep a 80 gallon SPS only tank and since correcting the params the corals grow for me.. The is no browning, IMO browning of SPS would be caused by something else.

Prolonged low calcium, as in, using the reef crystals without amending the CA and MG, (which I did for a while) will have a hard time growing coraline and SPS will likely STN.

I don't want to bother Dr Foster and Smith, I have 2 more buckets, they have refunded some of my money years ago when I complained, but really it's not their fault.. Simply amending the salt works.. as you needed to with IO also. But Dr F&S say they use these in their coral farm in thousand gallon reservoir in their catalog, they have amazing SPS.. Ha, I do not think they use the RC bucket without amendment.

I think I will continue to buy RC and test each bucket (not a big deal) and amend as needed. Cost of these amendment is a small cost compare to everything else in this hobby, no?

abark
01/10/2008, 11:26 PM
Well, I have noticed this problem for a couple years now. Two years ago when I really started getting into SPS I could not keep up my calcium even though I did 15% water changes weekly, and this was with maybe 5 small frags. When I finally ordered a mag test kit and tested my tank it was at about 1100. After correcting my levels in the tank I noticed my tank was back down to these levels after about a month. I finally suspected the salt and tested a batch of freshly mixed salt and found that the RC was the problem. Since then I test every new bucket and in two years I have had two buckets of RC that tested to 425-450 Ca and 1300+ Mg. Not a big deal as I buy Mg and Ca in bulk now and adjust accordingly. I don't necessarily want anything from anybody but having to buy 5 gallon buckets of mag gets a little annoying. I only buy salt when it is on sale at Drs Foster and at that price I am willing to spend a little extra to get the right levels.

scubadoo2
01/11/2008, 10:39 AM
What brand do you buy Mag. by the bucket?

bertoni
01/11/2008, 03:00 PM
TwoPartSolutions.com and BuckeyeFieldSupply.com both carry bulk magnesium.

abark
01/11/2008, 06:27 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11575099#post11575099 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scubadoo2
What brand do you buy Mag. by the bucket?

As Bertoni said I use twopartsolutions which is now bulkreefsupply.com.

jpndave
01/13/2008, 06:08 PM
How long after mixing do I need to wait to test Calcium and Magnesium?

bertoni
01/13/2008, 09:00 PM
I don't understand the question. After mixing what?

kngfisher
01/13/2008, 09:07 PM
after the discovery of low mag level in my tank (1050ppm), I used an online reef chem calculator (http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html) to help me calculate proper amount of supplement required to correct condition. So far so good after using a gal of ESV mag at max of 100ppm change per day. take things slowly but things have really improved. colors returning, superman slowly looking better. corals growing again.

jpndave
01/13/2008, 09:22 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11593839#post11593839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
I don't understand the question. After mixing what?
After mixing up new RC how long do I need to wait to test for ph, calcium, magnesium?

bertoni
01/13/2008, 11:36 PM
Answered in your other post. :) pH might take an hour or two, but the others should be fine right away.

midas blenny
01/14/2008, 01:53 AM
i called io when this salt first came out and told them they had problems. never got a call back. plus the smell of the salt made me worry smelled like a doctors office or just smelled weird compared to other salts. i have great colored acros but when i started using this salt i lost all my digis and did not hurt the acros or plating montis at all so i swithched back to regular io. i can only keep digis in very low light right now we will see.

SPStoner
01/14/2008, 06:29 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11595191#post11595191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by midas blenny
i called io when this salt first came out and told them they had problems. never got a call back. plus the smell of the salt made me worry smelled like a doctors office or just smelled weird compared to other salts. i have great colored acros but when i started using this salt i lost all my digis and did not hurt the acros or plating montis at all so i swithched back to regular io. i can only keep digis in very low light right now we will see.


Your profle says you have 7 years of hobby experience. This salt has been out for close to 20 years.


By the way, that smell you are talking about is the vitamins they add to the salt.

Sparty00
01/14/2008, 09:15 AM
What does manufacturer say the Calcium level be for a new mix of Reef Crystals at the following level.

SG. 1.026 35ppt.
Temp 78

Thanks !

bdare
01/14/2008, 09:21 AM
420

Sparty00
01/14/2008, 09:33 AM
Thanks BDare. So if I am getting 400 then I should be concerned and send a test amount to manufacturer?

jpndave
01/14/2008, 09:47 AM
Your test kit could be off that much easily, either the Ca test or salinity or a combination of the two. I have 5 buckets all from DFS and all testing low. Two buckets about 1yr old test between 55 and 80 depending on bucket and test kit. The others are from Nov 07 and test about 250 (calcium). They were tested multiple times with both a Seachem and Salifert kit, salinity was verified by two different brand refractometers, both the same. The Seachem and Salifert kits were verified with a test solution and both were testing slightly low (showing 420-425 with a 437 solution). Personally I would think 400 is close enough and woud be thrilled if my buckets were even remotely close to that.

Needless to say, I will be on the phone today. Thanks to all for posting their results here. It has helped out a lot to answer my low Ca & Mg levels and coral problems.

Dave

Mr. Ugly
01/15/2008, 11:38 PM
Retested one of my most recent buckets. I'd gotten 900ppm Mg on a quick and dirty test, so thought it might have been an error.

The retest showed:

Alk 4.6 meq/L
Ca 360 ppm
Mg 860 ppm

Some of my friends are also seeing 900ppm on Mg with their salt.

Billybeau1
01/16/2008, 12:33 AM
I have a bag (not bucket ) of RC and it is running about 1290 on the mag which is the RC I used to know. 420 cal too. @1.0264

I agree 400 is nothing more than test noise, but I would be concerned about the low magnesium.

raynist
01/16/2008, 10:08 PM
FWIW, I just tested a 5 gallon batch I just made. I will have to check the exact purchase date on my email receipt. The last time I ordered I ordered 3 buckets from DFS and I am about half way through my last bucket. I suspect I purchased them around October 2007.

Here are my results using salifert kits

35ppt SG
78 degrees

CA - 410
MG - 1250
KH - 12.5 dkh

I also mix the salt (dry) into a different bucket when I open them. I noticed on this last bucket that the lid was not on tight. I barely had to hit it to unscrew it.

--Ray

BTW, has anyone received a good bucket from DFS lately?

Billybeau1
01/16/2008, 11:24 PM
Those numbers are close to what I would expect from RC.

How you measured s.g. is the key. This affects calcium and magnesium quite a bit. :)

raynist
01/17/2008, 06:51 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11619182#post11619182 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by raynist
FWIW, I just tested a 5 gallon batch I just made. I will have to check the exact purchase date on my email receipt. The last time I ordered I ordered 3 buckets from DFS and I am about half way through my last bucket. I suspect I purchased them around October 2007.

Here are my results using salifert kits

35ppt SG
78 degrees

CA - 410
MG - 1250
KH - 12.5 dkh

I also mix the salt (dry) into a different bucket when I open them. I noticed on this last bucket that the lid was not on tight. I barely had to hit it to unscrew it.

--Ray

BTW, has anyone received a good bucket from DFS lately?


I checked my receipt and I ordered these from DFS on 9/7/07.

---Ray

midas blenny
01/17/2008, 06:56 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11595560#post11595560 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SPStoner
Your profle says you have 7 years of hobby experience. This salt has been out for close to 20 years.


By the way, that smell you are talking about is the vitamins they add to the salt.

said that wrong lol

masonicman
01/17/2008, 07:47 PM
bdare

I noticed the RC salt mixing issue when doing water changes. I've been addind more RC salt to get 1.025 on my pin point. CA is 380 as tonight. I thought my meter was bad. I just thought I was doing something wrong.

How much of a sample is to be sent? and what do I send the sample in? zip lock bag, container etc. etc.

bdare
01/17/2008, 09:03 PM
You only need to send 1/2 cup of salt in double zip locked bags.

You can send it to:
Gershwin Asari
Quality Control
Aquarium Systems/Instant Ocean
8141 Tyler Blvd.
Mentor, Ohio 44060

I would include a note as to why you are sending the salt and your contact information.

You can also call:
(800)822-1100 Ext. 3901

or email: [email protected]


I recieved my replacement salt earlier this week. To be honest, I haven't tested it, but I'm pretty sure it will come out right ;)

masonicman
01/18/2008, 03:30 AM
thanks

masonicman
01/18/2008, 06:22 AM
Bdare

Where can I find this info.

What does manufacturer say the Calcium level be for a new mix of Reef Crystals at the following level. Basically where can I find mixing info. on the web. I remember seeing it before. can't find now

SG. 1.026 35ppt.
Temp 78

Also how much RC per gal will give me a 1.026 salinity

bdare
01/18/2008, 06:28 AM
The levels should be pretty close to Ca: 420 / Alk: 11 / Mg: 1250

When I do water changes I usually do it 5 gallons at a time. A little more than 2.5 cups usually gets me to 1.026, but someone else said 3/4 of a cup per gallon. I tend to think it's somewhere in the middle.

masonicman
01/18/2008, 07:31 AM
OK. I have be following that process also with five gallons at 2.5 cups. salinity a little lower then 1.026 though.

masonicman
01/18/2008, 08:23 AM
What should my tank mag parameter be for fish and soft corals?

bdare
01/18/2008, 08:25 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11629285#post11629285 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by masonicman
What should my tank mag parameter be for fish and soft corals?

Mg is not as important for just fish and soft corals. It is helpful to keep it up however if you want to grow coraline. 1250-1350 is a good target.

masonicman
01/18/2008, 08:40 AM
What if it's a little higher like 1395?

bdare
01/18/2008, 08:42 AM
No harm. Right no in my tank it's at 1410.

masonicman
01/18/2008, 08:47 AM
Good deal. It seems after about a good year with this tank my numbers are now staying within the proper ranges. :rollface: :D

masonicman
01/18/2008, 08:50 AM
Preparing my shipping package and letter today at work. I will be shipping my salt sample off tomorrow. Do i need to email Asari first?

ReefDreamz
01/18/2008, 02:19 PM
Just tested a fresh batch of RC
All test kits salifert
SG.=1.027 Temp=72

Ca=400
Alk=12.6
Mg=1260

bdare
01/18/2008, 02:51 PM
Does anyone worry about the high alk in RC burning thier Acros?

seagirl
01/18/2008, 05:13 PM
i just tested a bucket i have from last fall i ordered form DFS. here are my results.

35ppt
CA-395
AL-12d/kh
MG-1195

I use salifert test kits that i have had since early last year. Anybody elses alk this high?

bdare
01/18/2008, 05:15 PM
Yup.

seagirl
01/18/2008, 05:21 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11633270#post11633270 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bdare
Yup. really, are you lowering it?

Billybeau1
01/19/2008, 12:22 AM
bdare, the alk is not that high when you consider you are only changing 20 to 25 % of the total water volume as most do.

If your tank is at 9 dkh and you change 20% with a mix that is at 12, you will not see much of a difference.

This is by design. :D

IO has about the same alkalinity as RC, and I don't see Randy complaining of high alk levels in his tank. :)

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/19/2008, 05:37 AM
I started a thread to discuss high alkalinity concerns in the SPS forum, but I've personally not seen any problem in my tank with alkalinity from 3-4.5 meq/L or so (8.4 to 12.6 dKH), which is where it typically ranges.

That said, in most established reef tanks, the alkalinity of the starting mix and that used for water changes is lost almost immediately into the ongoing demand and supplementation that takes place. Sort of like pushing a car to get it started. How hard you push has little bearing on the speed a half hour later when you are 15 miles down the road. :D

Leafer
01/19/2008, 10:44 AM
I am relieved to see this thread. This was frustrating the hell out of me. I’ve been using a lot of additives to boost things up that I thought shouldn’t have been needed. Dam, I have three big buckets of this stuff. I was thinking about ordering some seachem mix and mixing it together. Seachem has much more CA.

Phantom Phish
01/28/2008, 04:08 PM
Just to add my findings...

I had read in this, or the previous thread, that the low calcium readings of RC may be in buckets only, and didn't involve bags, and that it might be localized to Drs. Foster and Smith's supply of RC.

Well, this past weekend I bought a bag of RC salt at one of my LFSs (outside of Atlanta), mixed it to 1.026 / 35 ppt (measured with refractometer), and warmed to 78 dgrees F.

I measured calcium and alkalinity after aerating overnight, with following results:

Calcium 300-320 ppm
Alkalinity 11.2 dkH ; 4.00 meq/L

My Magnesium kit has expired, so I can't test that.

I'm going to send a sample to Aquarium Systems/ IO. If they confirm my findings, then it would seem that at least some bags might also be bad, and that it's not just Drs F&S's supply.

Billybeau1
01/28/2008, 11:15 PM
Thats the first I've heard of bags having problems. I've got a bag that reads 420 on the button.

Let us know what they say. :)

SPStoner
01/29/2008, 04:32 AM
Perhaps this should be in a different thread, but I am wondering how people are aerating their saltwater after mixing? The reason I ask is I noticed that after 24 hours of my typical method ( Mj1200 in a 32 gal Brute can) I would get one reading, and on my latest batch I added a lrge airstone with a strong air pump to really aerate things, and got calcium and alk readings that were higher on both. I tested this three times with three different kits to confirm. (Salifert, IO, and Elos) and was getting calcium reading 10-20% higher after adding the airstone.
On a seperate note, I discovered that my second refractometer was also not calibrated properly, like my first. It was off by .003! Tyhis one was only two weeks old. Using the 53ms solution from pinpoint gives very different results than the distilled water the unit came with for calibration. This in itself made a huge difference in calcium, mad, and alk readings..

Randy Holmes-Farley
01/29/2008, 04:47 AM
Aeration should not normally impact calcium or alkalinity readings, assuming you stirred it enough somehow to actually dissolve all of the solids that will dissolve. Maybe you dissolved a bit more off the bottom. :)

rbursek
01/29/2008, 05:52 AM
Just mixed up a 30gal batch with RC from Dr.Fand S, Alk 12, Cal 350. SG 1.026.
Bob

SPStoner
01/29/2008, 07:07 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11713221#post11713221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Aeration should not normally impact calcium or alkalinity readings, assuming you stirred it enough somehow to actually dissolve all of the solids that will dissolve. Maybe you dissolved a bit more off the bottom. :)


Thanks, Randy. I wasn't sure what effect, if any, excess CO2 may have on calcium and alkalinity readings. I know I have a problem in my house with this which does effect pH in my system.

HowardW
01/29/2008, 07:18 AM
I wonder if this issue with RC affects any other brands of salt, since I've heard in the past they also supply their base mix to others sold under other brand names.

Mike O'Brien
01/29/2008, 12:02 PM
I'm expecting a new bucket tomorrow. I usually get more than one at a time, but I figured I'll get one and hopefully if it's not good, the next one will be.

Hopefully it's good, I've used up all my CaCl on the driveway.

rbursek
01/29/2008, 12:07 PM
I sent my samples in almost 2 weeks now and have not heard anything, called the other day and just got Gerswins voice mail, how long does it usually take to get a responce?
Bob

bdare
01/29/2008, 12:09 PM
It took about a week before I got a respose back. Have you sent emails?

Ben

rbursek
01/29/2008, 12:11 PM
No, I have not sent emails, I do not have is email address but I put mine in the letter I wrote.
Bob

rbursek
01/29/2008, 01:17 PM
Must be psychic, just got a call from Bob S. at Aqu. Sys. 2 of my buckets tested out at 390, and the other at 400 which he said is lower then it should but not as low as my Seachem test kit was reading about 350 at 1.026. Mag was fine, sending out 3 buckets and said they think they know what may have happened and is corrected, but that was all he said he could say. I will stay with RC as long as they stand by there product like they did this time. I will test the stuff I get to see if it is my test kit plus have an Elos coming his week, test with that and see if there is any discrepancies.
Bob

bdare
01/29/2008, 01:19 PM
Glad to hear it worked out! He won't tell you when he mails it, but it will get there. I think it took 7-10 days before my bucket showed up.

Ben

Billybeau1
01/29/2008, 01:26 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11716314#post11716314 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rbursek
Must be psychic, just got a call from Bob S. at Aqu. Sys. 2 of my buckets tested out at 390, and the other at 400 which he said is lower then it should but not as low as my Seachem test kit was reading about 350 at 1.026. Mag was fine, sending out 3 buckets and said they think they know what may have happened and is corrected, but that was all he said he could say. I will stay with RC as long as they stand by there product like they did this time. I will test the stuff I get to see if it is my test kit plus have an Elos coming his week, test with that and see if there is any discrepancies.
Bob

That is great news. I'm glad to see they are stepping up to the plate.

BTW - My Seachem calcium test reads consistently about 70 ppm lower than any other test kit. Always has. I would not trust it.

See my new thread about Elos testing.
:)

StrategicReef
01/31/2008, 01:55 PM
tested another bucket today Magnesium 950 ppm :( (Seachem)

rbursek
01/31/2008, 02:18 PM
I got my new test kits yesterday, they read 40ppm higher on CAL. then the Seachem which would put my salt right at what it tested out at because it was 350 when I tested it with the SC and they got 390 when they tested it in the lab.
Bob

StrategicReef
01/31/2008, 03:03 PM
that might explain why my return pump broke too much calcium from being misled seachem kit? I aim for 425 so if it's a 40-60ppm higher it's still ok.

BTW I think seachem kits are crap now, their total alkanity kit that comes with the Mg kit reads 1 Meg / ~3 dKH lower then their regular kit and ELOS kit. I almost damaged my tank by supplementing ALK.

I am slowly replacing all my seachem kits.

EvilE
02/01/2008, 06:00 PM
anyone use API test kits to test the RC?

Billybeau1
02/01/2008, 10:53 PM
Yes, I did. What specifically do you want to know ?

EvilE
02/01/2008, 11:06 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11744731#post11744731 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
Yes, I did. What specifically do you want to know ? well all I have is API, and was wondering if you all felt confident in their results..... it seems most are using Salfert kits.

Billybeau1
02/01/2008, 11:36 PM
I feel very confident with API's results. Just look at the numbers in my recent Elos test kit thread.

About the only thing you give up when using API, is you only get round numbers instead of a more refined result. This doesn't seem to be a problem for most.

Also you'll want to watch the shelf life of the API's as they seem to expire quicker than other test kits.

At the price they sell these kits for, renewing kits every 6 months or so should not break the bank. :D

raynist
02/03/2008, 09:05 PM
Just received 3 buckets of RC and mixed a bucket very well before making a 30g batch of saltwater. Came up with 370 for the calcium with a salifert kit. Water temp was 78, 35ppt....

Billybeau1
02/03/2008, 10:57 PM
35 ppt measured by what instrument ?

raynist
02/04/2008, 07:07 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11758690#post11758690 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
35 ppt measured by what instrument ?

Refractometer

Billybeau1
02/04/2008, 10:09 AM
Recently calibrated I hope ?

raynist
02/04/2008, 11:12 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11760768#post11760768 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
Recently calibrated I hope ?

About 2 months ago, but the last batch I made a week ago with a bucket I just finished up tested at 420 or so for calcium using the same 77 degrees and 35ppt.

porthios
02/04/2008, 11:30 AM
my refractometer drifted appx 1.5ppt in the last month. amazing how quickly they stray..

Billybeau1
02/04/2008, 12:34 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11761210#post11761210 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by raynist
About 2 months ago, but the last batch I made a week ago with a bucket I just finished up tested at 420 or so for calcium using the same 77 degrees and 35ppt.

Sounds like you may have gotten one of the buckets with lower calcium. Keep an eye on your mag. The buckets with low calcium also had low mag. :)

raynist
02/04/2008, 01:23 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11761870#post11761870 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
Sounds like you may have gotten one of the buckets with lower calcium. Keep an eye on your mag. The buckets with low calcium also had low mag. :)

I did end up testing the Mg, it was 1065.

Billybeau1
02/04/2008, 01:33 PM
Well, that sounds about right for the bad buckets.

You have two choices.

1) Use the salt up and just bump the calcium and mag.

2) Send a sample of your salt to the manufacturer and they'll send you replacement buckets.

One of these threads has the contact info.

FWIW, they have already identified the problem and the new buckets should be back to normal. :)

seagirl
02/04/2008, 02:32 PM
i have 2 of the bad buckets from dfs i bought this past fall. 1 is almost gone, but the other still full. If i send a sample to the manu. to test and they verify it, do i have to pay shipping for my replacement bucket?

Billybeau1
02/04/2008, 03:18 PM
I don't know, seagirl.

I just decided to use up my RC and supplement the calcium and mag. Some reefers want replacement buckets.

I personally don't think it's a big. deal.

They screwed up and they are fixing it. Good enough for me.

If you want to go through all the mess of sending a sample and getting a free bucket, I don't blame you.

BTW, I love Clint Eastwood movies. :D

seagirl
02/05/2008, 10:54 AM
thanks billybeau1. I wish i could just swap out the bucket for a new one.

Clint is the man!!:uzi:

bdare
02/05/2008, 02:28 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11762854#post11762854 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seagirl
i have 2 of the bad buckets from dfs i bought this past fall. 1 is almost gone, but the other still full. If i send a sample to the manu. to test and they verify it, do i have to pay shipping for my replacement bucket?

You do not have to pay for shipping on the bucket. You only pay to ship your salt to them.

seagirl
02/05/2008, 03:08 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11771661#post11771661 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bdare
You do not have to pay for shipping on the bucket. You only pay to ship your salt to them. thanks

Mr. Ugly
02/07/2008, 01:35 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11762373#post11762373 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
FWIW, they have already identified the problem and the new buckets should be back to normal. :)

So what are the details regarding the problem?

I asked DFS just 2 days ago:

"[...] I'd appreciate if you would let me know what the manufacturer reports as the cause of the salt problems.

Is there anything else wrong with the salt aside from the calcium and magnesium levels?"

The reply I got yesterday:

"The manufacturer is still researching and gathering data, therefore there have not yet been any conclusive reports. What is known is that a small percentage of the Reef Crystals salt appeared to have had lower levels of calcium and magnesium than were expected in a reef –specific salt, but it is still safe to use in any aquarium as long as Calcium levels and water parameters are maintained."

:(

EvilE
02/07/2008, 08:11 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11788164#post11788164 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly
So what are the details regarding the problem?

I asked DFS just 2 days ago:

"[...] I'd appreciate if you would let me know what the manufacturer reports as the cause of the salt problems.

Is there anything else wrong with the salt aside from the calcium and magnesium levels?"

The reply I got yesterday:

"The manufacturer is still researching and gathering data, therefore there have not yet been any conclusive reports. What is known is that a small percentage of the Reef Crystals salt appeared to have had lower levels of calcium and magnesium than were expected in a reef –specific salt, but it is still safe to use in any aquarium as long as Calcium levels and water parameters are maintained."

:( Yeah, that response helps alot right?:rolleye1:

Billybeau1
02/08/2008, 05:02 AM
What I understand is it was some employees not paying attention to the mix and it was not very well supervised.

They have made changes from what I understand.

:D

Mr. Ugly
02/08/2008, 09:22 AM
So do they know specifically what salt parameters were off?

We know about Ca and Mg because we test for them.

Has ASI verified that levels were appropriate for all other components of the salt?

Have they identified the actual mode(s) of failure resulting in the bad batches? I'm guessing it's probably not like Homer Simpson miscounted the number of bags of Dowflake he dumped into a mixer.

Mr. Ugly
02/08/2008, 09:41 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11788164#post11788164 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly
The reply I got yesterday:

"The manufacturer is still researching and gathering data, therefore there have not yet been any conclusive reports. What is known is that a small percentage of the Reef Crystals salt appeared to have had lower levels of calcium and magnesium than were expected in a reef –specific salt, but it is still safe to use in any aquarium as long as Calcium levels and water parameters are maintained."
:(
The disturbing part is, if there haven't been any conclusive findings, then how can they say the salt is safe to use?

When I get a vague understated response like that, it makes me think that they are hiding an even bigger problem.

We know that it was more than just an "appearance" of low Ca/Mg.

And the "as long as [...]" is a pretty big disclaimer. What water parameters are they referring to?

"What's wrong with the salt?"

"We don't know. But it's safe to use as long as you adjust your water parameters."

"Ok, I'll adjust the water parameters."

"What's wrong with the salt?"

[...]

chrissreef
02/09/2008, 01:33 AM
ah crap, i just got 2 buckets... wish i knew about these issues when i ordered them.

Randy Holmes-Farley
02/09/2008, 12:42 PM
I hope this problem is resolved. I just misordered and received 3 buckets of RC instead of the IO that I wanted. :D

Billybeau1
02/09/2008, 12:46 PM
You shouldn't have any problems Randy. Of course you'll have to test a batch to see how much calcium and mag to add.

And I know how you hate to test. :lol:

Randy Holmes-Farley
02/09/2008, 12:49 PM
Yes, I might even just assume it is fine. :D

Billybeau1
02/09/2008, 12:50 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11802177#post11802177 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
ah crap, i just got 2 buckets... wish i knew about these issues when i ordered them.

Before you say crap, mix up a batch and see where your numbers fall.

I'm using my bucket thats a little low, I just bump it a little with cal and mag. Working just fine.

I am not ready to jump ship with this salt because of a little bump in the road. They have provided a quality salt mix for a long time.

I'll ride this one out. I'm sure it will be fixed soon.

Billybeau1
02/09/2008, 12:53 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11804456#post11804456 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Yes, I might even just assume it is fine. :D

Well, if you got good buckets you can expect around 420 cal and 1260-1290 mag.

If you got a bad bucket, the numbers are real close to the IO you are used to using. :)

LobsterOfJustice
02/09/2008, 12:58 PM
I just got in 4 buckets from the Drs 2 days ago... low Ca and Mg. I sent out the following email to [email protected] I will let you all know how it turns out.

Hello,

I recently bought 4 160g buckets of Reef Crystals from an online vendor Drs. Foster and Smith. After mixing up a small batch I noticed low numbers for Ca and Mg. After doing some quick research I discovered this is a very common problem recently, and I went ahead and tested my other buckets and came up with similar results. My specific test numbers are below. I mixed the salt with RODI water of 0 TDS, at a specific gravity of 1.025 (measured with a refractometer calibrated last week with a seawater standard).

Ca (API) - 360
Ca (Salifert) - 325
Alk (API) - 8.5
Alk (LaMotte) - 9.2
Mg (Salifert) - 1050

I have heard that you can mail in a 1/2 cup sample, and have it tested, and if it is indeed low replacements will be sent out. I just wanted to verify this before sending out samples from the buckets. I have attached a picture of my four new buckets with lids off, so you can see these are indeed four new buckets of salt, and I'm not just trying to get some free salt.

EvilE
02/09/2008, 03:22 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11802177#post11802177 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrissreef
ah crap, i just got 2 buckets... wish i knew about these issues when i ordered them. I know the feeling. I found out shortly after I purchased a bucket as well......it seems both the manufacturer, and Drs Foster and Smith (where I got mine) are more then willing to rectify the problem though! That is the great thing! I hate when companies take your money, and turn their back on you--noone is doing that here, thank goodness!

rbursek
02/10/2008, 09:28 PM
bumb

Billybeau1
02/10/2008, 09:42 PM
Hey, who are you calling a bumb ?













:lol:

rbursek
02/11/2008, 12:26 AM
bumb

EvilE
02/16/2008, 12:16 AM
I contacted Aquarium Systems (maker of IO and RC) and told them about my low Calcium and Magnesium testing from my bucket of Reef Crystals, and I got a response back, that they will test my salt, if I send them a sample. Now that seems fair, BUT I think since I am a customer of theirs, relying on and buying THEIR product, they should pay for the damn shipping postage! Why should I have to pay for it, when it's their fault that they sold defective faulty salt!!?? That's bad CR if you ask me!

Billybeau1
02/16/2008, 12:23 AM
How do they know your salt is bad? They won't know unless they test it. You could have bad test kits for all they know.

If they test your salt and find it deficient, they will probably send you a couple of replacement buckets which will more than pay you shipping costs for a bit of salt. :)

Send in your salt, sit back and relax.

Keep us tuned in. :)

schigara
02/16/2008, 12:36 AM
I always remix a new bucket of salt this way except I use 2 empty buckets and shuffle back and forth between 3 buckets. I always get good results with CA, Alk and Mag with Oceanic using this routine.........oops, i'm sorry, this thread is talking about the overly popular reef crystals.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11526439#post11526439 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ArgonDreams
The one thing thing that bothers me about this whole thing... How many of you are re-mixing the salts prior to mix on the entire bucket?

During shipment the salts settle into strata. I typically take 2 empty dry buckets and split my new salt between them and mix them back and forth until I get a true mix again. When I have not done this my testing shows very different levels depending on where I pulled from the bucket. (typically low Ca/Alk on the top of the bucket).

Do those of you who have had bad Ca measurements tried mixing the bucket back up prior to using the salt? Typically you only need to re-mix the salt initially since it's the multiple shipping and vibrations the bucket gets cause it to settle in this manner.

I would be curious to see if all or none of you do this recommended procedure?

For those that don't get what I am talking about, think of it like a bucket of rocks of different sizes (Which is essentially what this is) Give it anywhere from 7-10 days of vibration (Shipment) and then look into the bucket they will sort themselves into layers.

Billybeau1
02/16/2008, 12:38 AM
:lol:

EvilE
02/16/2008, 09:48 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11861035#post11861035 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by schigara
I always remix a new bucket of salt this way except I use 2 empty buckets and shuffle back and forth between 3 buckets. I always get good results with CA, Alk and Mag with Oceanic using this routine.........oops, i'm sorry, this thread is talking about the overly popular reef crystals. Sarcasm!!! Now youre playing MY game!!:p ;)

rbursek
02/16/2008, 09:49 AM
Just got my 3 buckets from them yesterday, making water to mix up a batch, anxious to test it and see what the readings are from there replacement stuff.

EvilE
02/16/2008, 09:54 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11862699#post11862699 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rbursek
Just got my 3 buckets from them yesterday, making water to mix up a batch, anxious to test it and see what the readings are from there replacement stuff. yeah, please let us know ok?

rbursek
02/16/2008, 11:29 AM
Will do.

Mark426
02/16/2008, 02:54 PM
I have noticed that SEVERAL brands of salt are testing low lately. Think there is one common manufacturer that makes salt for these companies? That might explain some of the low readings that have been so common across several brands.

Mark426
02/16/2008, 02:54 PM
I have noticed that SEVERAL brands of salt are testing low lately. Think there is one common manufacturer that makes salt for these companies? That might explain some of the low readings that have been so common across several brands.

EvilE
02/16/2008, 03:42 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11864422#post11864422 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mark426
I have noticed that SEVERAL brands of salt are testing low lately. Think there is one common manufacturer that makes salt for these companies? That might explain some of the low readings that have been so common across several brands. it makes you wonder

rbursek
02/16/2008, 06:09 PM
Got 3 buckets of RC after there samples were low, just mixed it up, did not shake bucket, PH Hanna 7.7 just calb. temp 77*F hanna, Ca340 API, Alk Elos10, Mg Elos 1250. I guess I give them a call on the Ca, they told me when using SC Ca test kits they read low. I know my tank, there salt is low.

EvilE
02/16/2008, 06:10 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11865602#post11865602 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rbursek
Got 3 buckets of RC after there samples were low, just mixed it up, did not shake bucket, PH Hanna 7.7 just calb. temp 77*F hanna, Ca340 API, Alk Elos10, Mg Elos 1250. I guess I give them a call on the Ca, they told me when using SC Ca test kits they read low. I know my tank, there salt is low. just damn!:( :mad:

EvilE
02/16/2008, 09:18 PM
I just re-tested my Calcium from my bucket of RC. It tested at around 300Ca. I couldn't believe it so I tested my display tank (which I have been using IO/Oceanic) and it tested at 420Ca. So I re-tested my RC, and it is indeed 300 Ca. Craptastic.....

Billybeau1
02/16/2008, 11:56 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11865602#post11865602 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rbursek
Got 3 buckets of RC after there samples were low, just mixed it up, did not shake bucket, PH Hanna 7.7 just calb. temp 77*F hanna, Ca340 API, Alk Elos10, Mg Elos 1250. I guess I give them a call on the Ca, they told me when using SC Ca test kits they read low. I know my tank, there salt is low.

What s.g. did you mix it at and how do you measure s.g ?

chercm
02/17/2008, 03:38 AM
so is it ok to use reef crystal salt ?

rbursek
02/17/2008, 08:50 AM
BB,
refratormeter that was just calibrated, mixed to 1.026, do you think I should let AM know, they sent me the buckets!

Phantom Phish
02/17/2008, 10:29 AM
Hmmm...
Well, that throws some doubt on whether the problem has really been fixed or not.

Billybeau1
02/17/2008, 10:35 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11868189#post11868189 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chercm
so is it ok to use reef crystal salt ?

Yes, if you have some, use it. You just may have to bump the calcium and mag up a little.

Billybeau1
02/17/2008, 10:37 AM
rb, I'm chasing two threads here but I'll ask again in this one.

How did you calibrated your refractometer ?

rbursek
02/17/2008, 06:24 PM
The solution for that from DrFS and then double checked againts a friends meter.

rbursek
02/17/2008, 06:34 PM
BB,
also I always mix up 30gal, and I have a plastic 5qt bucket that I have used since day one to put my salt in, marked for 1.026 minus 4 cups for fine tuning to get it to 1.026, which I used and the 4 cups.

fred fishstone
02/18/2008, 02:13 PM
I've been bumping up Ca and Mag for my last 3 buckets of RC. Not that much trouble, but if does add some expense.

Billybeau1
02/18/2008, 02:21 PM
Yes, hopefully they will get this squared away soon. They are too many salt mixes out there for reefers to choose from. :)

rbursek
02/18/2008, 02:23 PM
I recieved 3 replacement buckets of RC salt from AS. I have an API and Sera test kits for Ca that are aprox. 4 weeks old, which I will admit they read different on my tank water also, Sera higher. I made up water from each bucket, sample 1, API 320, Sera 400, #2, API 320, Sera 360, # 3 API 360, Sera 440. I am so confused and fustrated, I am just going to mix up my salt and adjust accordingly. The API test out my tank at 420, the SEra about 540, I have no precip problems so I tend to trust the API. Good luk to all

Billybeau1
02/18/2008, 02:35 PM
I believe your API in your tank and 420 is a great place to be. I've never tested the Sera but those numbers don't make sense with the salt your using so I'd believe the API.

I agree all this testing stuff can get real frustrating.

As long as your tank looks good, not much to worry about IMO.

vess posted a calcium test kit test a couple of days ago. It looks pretty good to me.

:)

rbursek
02/18/2008, 02:40 PM
It is the RC thing too, but I could open thes buckets by hand, when usually I get one I need a hammer for the first time, so I am wondering if there might have been opened and tested before being shipped. Just a thought.

Billybeau1
02/18/2008, 02:52 PM
If it was opened and tested before shipping and the result was still 360 or so, I don't think they would have shipped it. :)

Were all three buckets like that ?

Scooterman67
03/01/2008, 10:38 AM
Just got a bucket & mixed 30g to 35ppt & it was close to 400ppm, I hope the issues are fixed but over time IMO any salt manufacturer can slip up on batches, so you need to test!

LobsterOfJustice
03/13/2008, 09:10 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11804510#post11804510 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
I just got in 4 buckets from the Drs 2 days ago... low Ca and Mg. I sent out the following email to [email protected] I will let you all know how it turns out.

Hello,

I recently bought 4 160g buckets of Reef Crystals from an online vendor Drs. Foster and Smith. After mixing up a small batch I noticed low numbers for Ca and Mg. After doing some quick research I discovered this is a very common problem recently, and I went ahead and tested my other buckets and came up with similar results. My specific test numbers are below. I mixed the salt with RODI water of 0 TDS, at a specific gravity of 1.025 (measured with a refractometer calibrated last week with a seawater standard).

Ca (API) - 360
Ca (Salifert) - 325
Alk (API) - 8.5
Alk (LaMotte) - 9.2
Mg (Salifert) - 1050

I have heard that you can mail in a 1/2 cup sample, and have it tested, and if it is indeed low replacements will be sent out. I just wanted to verify this before sending out samples from the buckets. I have attached a picture of my four new buckets with lids off, so you can see these are indeed four new buckets of salt, and I'm not just trying to get some free salt.

I have gotten no word since I sent out the samples almost a month ago. I emailed asking for updates at the beginning of the week and have not heard anything back.

raynist
03/13/2008, 09:11 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12079476#post12079476 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
I have gotten no word since I sent out the samples almost a month ago. I emailed asking for updates at the beginning of the week and have not heard anything back.

Same here!

EvilE
03/13/2008, 06:20 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12079488#post12079488 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by raynist
Same here! They emailed me a couple weeks ago, saying they are sending me a replacement bucket--haven't received it to date.....

LobsterOfJustice
03/14/2008, 12:19 PM
Got an email from Bob today:


> Mr. Meyer, I apologize for taking so long with this. I have tested all 4
> samples you sent. I dissolved them all at 1.026spgr and found the
> following for Ca/Mg: 386/1230, 405/1200, 395/1270, 376/1260. At 1.026 we
> allow for a range of 415-469/1230-1380 so the samples were indeed low on
> calcium with one slightly out of range for Mg.
>
> I will have 4 replacement buckets sent if you can send me your address.
>
> Thank you,
> Bob


His values are significantly higher than what I had measured, but as he said, still lowe than their normal Ca values.

rbursek
03/14/2008, 12:43 PM
I posted on this page my replacement buckets were low,short story refractometer was reading low, New buckets are good.

Billybeau1
03/14/2008, 12:53 PM
That's good news guys. :)

USC-fan
03/15/2008, 10:03 PM
Please keep us update when you guys get new salt. I really don't want to switch if RC can work the problems out. I still have a 6 months supply of good RC....

GoSixers
03/15/2008, 11:20 PM
I emailed and spoke with bob on Friday and he is sending me a prepaid shipping sticker Monday so I can send him a sample of salt which is testing in the low 300’s. I will keep you guys informed.

HBtank
03/16/2008, 12:19 PM
Just ordered 4 more buckets of RC from DrFstrs. I am well aware of the issues and have read every thread.

I was almost ready to get Seachem reef salt instead, even had them in my basket.... I considered TM, but I like large water changes, and frequent, so it just does not fit my budget.

Then I just took a look at my tank, which has been doing great using RC. and thought to myself... why would I want to switch? One of my first rules I made for myself was to pick a salt and stick with it. Just makes sense to me...

I have yet to hear of any real in-tank problems with RC, regardless of "low numbers". In the end I guess I could care less about the possibility of correcting a couple parameters, if needed.

I have read of problems with other mixes, and even new ones with the Seachem I was about to buy. Strange slime algae problems... etc. no salt is perfect 100% of the time. But considering the sheer volume of salt marineland puts out, and their customers (pretty substantial and important ones), they come as close to the goal of consistancy and especially the notion of being "safe" as any. .

I still trust RC and see no reason to stray away from one element I feel has contributed to my success. There is more to salt than Ca and Mg numbers, and I have faith in RC and decided I will stick with them. There are far to many people using it out there, with no reported problems other than on their test kits.

Anyway, I will post some numbers when i mix up the new salt.

rbursek
03/16/2008, 12:37 PM
this is from my low RC, mixed up 30gal 1.025, PH 7.8, Ca 400, Mg 1275, Alk 10dkh

Billybeau1
03/16/2008, 01:36 PM
HB, I applaud you.

Thats the attitude that make successful reef tanks.

If your tank looks good........ it probably is good.

There is no best salt mix........ only the best for your tank and I think you have found yours.

Why do you think Randy has used Instant Ocean all these years. :D

fred fishstone
03/16/2008, 03:31 PM
I'm with you guys. It's not that much trouble to add calcium and magnesium when mixing, if it keeps from possibly creating a slew of other problems by switching salts. I'm confident the manufacturers will get those numbers up in future batches. It's not a bad idea to test when opening a new bucket anyway.

nait002
03/18/2008, 03:31 PM
Well just tested my 2 new buckets from that I received from Bob Studt from Aquarium Systems. At 1.026 my calcium is at 340-360 my magnesium is at 1050 and my alkalinity is at 4.23 meq/l. Well it seems that they are still handing out there bad buckets of salt.

I also have a question for HBtank. What are you going to dose to bring up your calcium and your magnesium without raising your alkalinity through the roof. My batches are already higher than I would like.

Scooterman67
03/18/2008, 03:42 PM
nait002 what test kits are you using? It would help if we could use similar kits to make sure we're getting the same results, also guess we should all make the same sg level like 35ppt, it doesn't take much to make a big difference, at 35ppt I get right at 400ppm ca, usung API test kits.

nait002
03/18/2008, 03:56 PM
I am using Elos and Seachem magnesium test, 2 different salifets for alkalinity, and Salifert for calcium. I am using a calibrated Sybon refractometer. I thought 35ppt and 1.026 were the same reading.

Scooterman67
03/18/2008, 05:11 PM
Elos should be a good kit, saliflert has had issues on accuracy for a while now, I'd check into that more. Your Sybon, is it calibrated using Pinpoint 53Ms fluid? 1.0265 would be a little closer but really you should go by salinity not specific gravity if you have the refract. It would be a better reading. I have a syborn & they aren't calibrated properly out of the box, I compared it using Ro/DI & the pinpoint 53Ms solution was slightly different but either will be fairly close. All of these variations will make a difference when we compare readings.

nait002
03/18/2008, 06:19 PM
I'm not really concerned that my testing is right. I've been doing this for years and check my test kits against other peoples kits to make sure they are correct. I also checked my Alk test againts my other Salifert and an Elos kit. I'd really like to know how to raise my calcium and magnesium without shooting the alk through the roof.

Scooterman67
03/18/2008, 06:35 PM
I wasn't knocking your experience, just making a point towards the thread about information to help get a better idea of comparisons.
Have you ever tried Randy's Two part? You can go to the twopartsolutions website & get what you need to balance your levels. They have good products at a reasonable price.

nait002
03/18/2008, 06:39 PM
I wasn't trying to come across harsh if thats how it came out. This is my second bad batch of RC. Doesn't Randy's 2 part raise alkalinity also?

bertoni
03/18/2008, 07:01 PM
The alkalinity solution of the 2-part can be used to raise alkalinity. The calcium solution can be used to raise calcium. Dosing them independently that way is fine. I do that fairly regularly.

HBtank
03/18/2008, 10:14 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12122076#post12122076 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nait002
Well just tested my 2 new buckets from that I received from Bob Studt from Aquarium Systems. At 1.026 my calcium is at 340-360 my magnesium is at 1050 and my alkalinity is at 4.23 meq/l. Well it seems that they are still handing out there bad buckets of salt.

I also have a question for HBtank. What are you going to dose to bring up your calcium and your magnesium without raising your alkalinity through the roof. My batches are already higher than I would like.

Calcium chloride solution and Magnesium chloride/sulfate solution. The carbonate solution raises alkalinity, and is separate.

They call it "2 part", but it really has 3 parts. The magnesium is just used at a different rate than the equally dosed parts of calcium and carbonate.

I have these readily available in large amounts, as I use DIY 2-part automatic dosing.

You can use them separately, but it is recommended to add the Mg first in order to prevent precipitation.

I have not had to raise my levels yet though. My buckets have been fine so far.

Billybeau1
03/19/2008, 12:32 AM
To answer your question, calcium chloride and magnesium chloride will not affect alkalinity much if at all.

I realize the alk is already high with RC. No worries with the above. :)

I'm disappointed they sent you 2 new buckets and they are still low.

I am concerned about this though. You said the mag was fine in your new buckets. Well, the bad batches of RC were all low in calcium and magnesium. If your mag is fine, then I might suspect your calcium kit might not be reporting correct results.

I already read how long you have been testing and checking with friends and such. But you may want to get a second opinion on that Ca++ kit. :)

nait002
03/19/2008, 06:15 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12126092#post12126092 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
To answer your question, calcium chloride and magnesium chloride will not affect alkalinity much if at all.

I realize the alk is already high with RC. No worries with the above. :)

I'm disappointed they sent you 2 new buckets and they are still low.

I am concerned about this though. You said the mag was fine in your new buckets. Well, the bad batches of RC were all low in calcium and magnesium. If your mag is fine, then I might suspect your calcium kit might not be reporting correct results.

I already read how long you have been testing and checking with friends and such. But you may want to get a second opinion on that Ca++ kit. :)

Billy I confirmed these tests with my neighbor. He also uses Salifert and Elos. Also the magnesium was low, 1050 like my last 4 buckets. I placed a call into Bob Studt yesterday and I am still waiting for a return call with an explanation.

Billybeau1
03/19/2008, 11:06 PM
OK, keep us posted. :)

EvilE
03/20/2008, 07:36 PM
I just received my replacement bucket of RC from Bob Studt! I will mix up a batch and test and report the results in the next couple days! I gotta say, at least they stand by their product, and try to make it right!

EvilE
03/22/2008, 12:40 AM
Well I mixed the new bucket batch to 1.026 salinity, 35 SG, 79 degrees
(checked with pinpoint calibrated refractometer) tested twice, both came out at 380 Ca.

Not so good.

Scooterman67
03/22/2008, 08:15 AM
Well better than 300 but still not up to what they claim it shoud be, It is at the point where we need to test every salt & supplement as needed. TM was cheaper I'd switch to that.

b16drag
04/05/2008, 04:22 AM
Glad I found this thread. I've been dosing Mag like gatorade for the past 4 months since I've starting using RC. Things look okay but that was after I started dosing Mg! I've gone through quite a bit of Mg and this may explain EXACTLY what has been happening. I knew I should have gotten off my lazy butt and tested the new saltwater mixes...

I have 2 new buckets from DrF&S yesterday also... so well see.... :/

Billybeau1
04/05/2008, 12:00 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12259300#post12259300 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by b16drag
I have 2 new buckets from DrF&S yesterday also... so well see.... :/

Let us know how they tested. I'm starting to hear of "back to normal buckets" now. :)

Scooterman67
04/05/2008, 03:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12261063#post12261063 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
Let us know how they tested. I'm starting to hear of "back to normal buckets" now. :)

Good because I'm about out:D

A sea K
04/05/2008, 03:54 PM
FWIW,
I received a new bucket last week from Marine Depot.
Although my salinity testing standards are not as accurate as most here(swingarm), I'll post my results anyway.

32gals mixed to 35 ppt mixed for 24hrs before testing,
Temp-76deg f, tested with Elos test kits
Alk-11dKH
Calc-350
Mag-1000

I've heard some good things on the RC salt and was looking for a cheaper alternative and a little more Alk than the TM pro I have always used. Was a little disappointed with the levels but didn't think too much of it till I came across this thread this morning.

b16drag
04/06/2008, 03:12 AM
The RC bucket I've been using for the past month.

Refractor meter calibrated (just this morning!) @ 1.0265 Ca - 375 (Salifert) dKH 12.7 (Salifert) and Mg 1100 (Elos)

A Mg at 1100 would be the reason why I've been pouring Mg supplement into my tank like its gatorade at a football game!


I still have to check the other buckets... but so far :(

Scooterman67
04/06/2008, 08:40 AM
CA of 375 & mg of 1100 is a balance, MG should be about three times CA, you should raise one along with the other but not just one, also Alk if necessary!

b16drag
04/06/2008, 09:39 AM
Ya I've been doing both... but sucks that I need to since its advertise as a "reef salt" Ca and Mg may be balance but definitely not at ideal levels for a reef tank.

Scooterman67
04/06/2008, 10:49 AM
Yea, Anthony Calfo recommends between 380 & 420, but you can bump ca a little & still not be far off. My last bucket was dead on at 400ppm so I hope they bump it back to where it needs to be, even If they have to bump cost up to accommodate the increases, which I’m thinking why they let it go lower like that.

bertoni
04/06/2008, 12:25 PM
I would ignore the idea of "balancing" magnesium and calcium. I don't see any data to indicate that the concept is useful. I target about 1280, and calcium between 350 and 450, depending on the tank.

Scooterman67
04/06/2008, 01:46 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12267766#post12267766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
I would ignore the idea of "balancing" magnesium and calcium. I don't see any data to indicate that the concept is useful. I target about 1280, and calcium between 350 and 450, depending on the tank.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm

Read up on it before you give out poor advice!

BTW
I never said that It had to be balanced, it was balanced was the point! I never suggest to anyone to try & make it a perfect balance that would be bad advice!

CJ
04/06/2008, 03:11 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12268175#post12268175 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Scooterman67
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm

Read up on it before you give out poor advice.

There really is no need to get offensive.

Your cite refers to how Magnesium impacts the calcium/carbonate system, the balance of Calcium and Alkalinity. Where does it cover "balancing" magnesium and calcium?

Scooterman67
04/06/2008, 03:17 PM
I wasn’t no more offensive than he was if you took it that way!

Without MG you'll never balance alk & Ca. Again as I said, the reference I made was to his Ca & Mg & Alk were in balance, I didn't mention alk because he didn't his post!

Scooterman67
04/06/2008, 03:28 PM
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

Magnesium

Magnesium's primary importance is its interaction with the calcium and alkalinity balance in reef aquaria. Seawater and reef aquarium water are always supersaturated with calcium carbonate. That is, the solution's calcium and carbonate levels exceed the amount that the water can hold at equilibrium. How can that be? Magnesium is a big part of the answer. Whenever calcium carbonate begins to precipitate, magnesium binds to the growing surface of the calcium carbonate crystals. The magnesium effectively clogs the crystals' surface so that they no longer look like calcium carbonate, making them unable to attract more calcium and carbonate, so the precipitation stops. Without the magnesium, the abiotic (nonbiological) precipitation of calcium carbonate would likely increase enough to prohibit the maintenance of calcium and alkalinity at natural levels.

For this reason, I suggest targeting the natural seawater concentration of magnesium: ~1285 ppm. For practical purposes, 1250-1350 ppm is fine, and levels slightly outside that range (1200-1400 ppm) are also likely acceptable. I would not suggest raising magnesium by more than 100 ppm per day, in case the magnesium supplement contains impurities. If you need to raise it by several hundred ppm, spreading the addition over several days will allow you to more accurately reach the target concentration, and might possibly allow the aquarium to handle any impurities that the supplement contains.

An aquarium's corals and coralline algae can deplete magnesium by incorporating it into their growing calcium carbonate skeletons. Many methods of supplementing calcium and alkalinity may not deliver enough magnesium to maintain it at a normal level. Settled limewater (kalkwasser), in particular, is quite deficient in magnesium. Consequently, magnesium should be measured occasionally, particularly if the aquarium's calcium and alkalinity levels seem difficult to maintain. Aquaria with excessive abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate on objects such as heaters and pumps might suffer from low magnesium levels (along with high pH, calcium, and alkalinity).

rbursek
04/06/2008, 03:54 PM
There are about 4 people here on chemistry, test kits and salt analysis you never want to go head to head with, and they have so much class and style that they do not, except Randy must not have had his coffee last Saturday" go head to head!". Randy Holmes-Farly, Jonathon Bertroni, Billybeau1, and I cannot thinck or find his call sign here at the momment, and not the DZrat.

bertoni
04/07/2008, 01:44 PM
This issue has come up repeatedly.

As the article states in your quotation, just keep the parameters in the recommended range. There's no value to trying to compute a "balance" between magnesium and calcium, which just complicates the issue and adds no value.

rbursek
04/07/2008, 01:54 PM
Boomer is the 4th.

Scooterman67
04/07/2008, 02:03 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12275908#post12275908 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
This issue has come up repeatedly.

As the article states in your quotation, just keep the parameters in the recommended range. There's no value to trying to compute a "balance" between magnesium and calcium, which just complicates the issue and adds no value.

Actually I agree with that, you try to keep it in a range as you do ca & alk my point is the three are related & if you are too far off on mg, you will have issues with trying to raise the other two, so in that aspect, there is a somewhat balance between the three, just mg isn't as critical but is necessary.
Anyways, I'm here to see how the salt is doing, I just want to know how the company is doing to correct the problem.

Scooterman67
04/07/2008, 02:03 PM
duplicate post

jglackin
04/07/2008, 03:11 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12276039#post12276039 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Scooterman67
I'm here to see how the salt is doing, I just want to know how the company is doing to correct the problem.

Do you think the company recognizes the problem?

Billybeau1
04/07/2008, 04:05 PM
YES. I know for a fact that they know there was a problem. And, they have identified the error and it is corrected as we speak.

However, with the quantity of salt they produce, it may take 6 months or so to flush out all of the bad buckets. :)

CJ
04/07/2008, 04:15 PM
I sent them three samples, one from a bucket in use and 2 from buckets I had on the shelf. They all tested low in calcium, alkalinity and particularly the magnesium. I've been using double of my Kent 2 part as well as adding magnesium. It gets expensive.

I'm waiting to hear from them. Will let you know what happens.

b16drag
04/07/2008, 11:41 PM
New RC bucket tested low for Ca and Mg again... :(

@1.0265 S.G. Ca - 375, Alk 12, and Mg 1050

The Mg part is bumming out since I'm wasting so much additives for it to be at the right level.

I actually think Mg is just as important as Ca and Alk. There appears to be some interaction with Mg and Ca as the two do affect each other and are both divalent cations. Even within our own body's they have a close interplay and with one level being out of whack will disrupt the other.

Try keeping your Mg at 1000-1100 and see what kind of growth you get on the SPS's :) I have... its pretty slow growing! I was there.

Billybeau1
04/08/2008, 12:01 AM
Like I said before, due to the volume of salt manufactured, it may take 6 months or so to get the bad buckets out of circulation.

To be honest with you, I'm about ready to call them and see what the latest info is on this stuff.

This is getting old. :(

b16drag
04/08/2008, 12:30 AM
I'm right there with you Billybeau. Supplements costing as much as the salt mixture is not cool...

Scooterman67
04/12/2008, 02:38 PM
I agree, you pay for a product, reef salt in particular & you'd expect to get the levels needed & what you pay extra for in the first place. I just have to remind myself, IO/RC same people & been doing this almost 40 years with the IO. So the RC is another learning experience for them & If they want to continue to sell it, they will have to fix it & soon!

rbursek
04/12/2008, 04:11 PM
Ditto!

Thales
04/13/2008, 09:35 AM
What are you guys using to add mg thats expensive? 7 pounds of bulk mg is like 12 bucks online.

rbursek
04/13/2008, 10:07 AM
Kent Tech M.

b16drag
04/13/2008, 07:13 PM
i'm using MgCl from bulkreefsupply.com and epsom salt (MgSO4)

sjm817
04/18/2008, 08:56 PM
Ok, I just opened my last bucket of Reef Crystals and its time to order a new supply. I usually get 3 - 4 buckets at a time.

How are the recent shipments from F&S? has the problem been corrected?

EvilE
04/18/2008, 10:16 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12362206#post12362206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjm817
Ok, I just opened my last bucket of Reef Crystals and its time to order a new supply. I usually get 3 - 4 buckets at a time.

How are the recent shipments from F&S? has the problem been corrected? not yet I don't believe--there are still a lot of bad buckets of RC's around......

Lightsluvr
04/27/2008, 09:36 AM
I have used Instant Ocean ever since I started in this hobby...which of course means supplementing everything... I was considering a gradual move to Reef Crystals until I read this thread...I think I will wait a while longer...

For the uninitiated, what readings of CA, ALK and MG should I expect from Reef Crystals if mixed to 1.025 - 1.026 SG?

I currently run my tanks at 420-450 CA, 1300 - 1350 MG and 3.5 - 4.0 Mqel ALK.

LL

jglackin
04/27/2008, 11:22 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12268797#post12268797 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Scooterman67
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php
Magnesium

Magnesium's primary importance is its interaction with the calcium and alkalinity balance in reef aquaria. Seawater and reef aquarium water are always supersaturated with calcium carbonate. That is, the solution's calcium and carbonate levels exceed the amount that the water can hold at equilibrium. How can that be? Magnesium is a big part of the answer. Whenever calcium carbonate begins to precipitate, magnesium binds to the growing surface of the calcium carbonate crystals. The magnesium effectively clogs the crystals' surface so that they no longer look like calcium carbonate, making them unable to attract more calcium and carbonate, so the precipitation stops. Without the magnesium, the abiotic (nonbiological) precipitation of calcium carbonate would likely increase enough to prohibit the maintenance of calcium and alkalinity at natural levels.

For this reason, I suggest targeting the natural seawater concentration of magnesium: ~1285 ppm. For practical purposes, 1250-1350 ppm is fine, and levels slightly outside that range (1200-1400 ppm) are also likely acceptable. I would not suggest raising magnesium by more than 100 ppm per day, in case the magnesium supplement contains impurities. If you need to raise it by several hundred ppm, spreading the addition over several days will allow you to more accurately reach the target concentration, and might possibly allow the aquarium to handle any impurities that the supplement contains.

An aquarium's corals and coralline algae can deplete magnesium by incorporating it into their growing calcium carbonate skeletons. Many methods of supplementing calcium and alkalinity may not deliver enough magnesium to maintain it at a normal level. Settled limewater (kalkwasser), in particular, is quite deficient in magnesium. Consequently, magnesium should be measured occasionally, particularly if the aquarium's calcium and alkalinity levels seem difficult to maintain. Aquaria with excessive abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate on objects such as heaters and pumps might suffer from low magnesium levels (along with high pH, calcium, and alkalinity).


Not to sidetrack this from the original intent of this discussion, but help me better understand the true importance of mg in the reef aquarium? Am I reading this right? Magnesium helps keep the calcium from precipitating when we run high alk and calc levels in our systems? Or is it that it helps the corals better use the calcium that is suspended in the water column?

bertoni
04/27/2008, 10:12 PM
Magnesium helps keep calcium in suspension by poisoning the surface of any crystals that form, and it is used by organisms in their skeletons:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm

bdare
04/28/2008, 06:29 AM
I just opened one of the replacement buckets I was sent. I can't remember if it was the one from Drs Foster and Smith or Aquarium Systems.

IT TESTED NORMAL!!! WOOT!!!

Ca - 420
Alk - 12

I didn't test Mg cause I assumed if Ca was OK I got a good bucket!

rbursek
04/28/2008, 06:50 AM
Lucky you, one of the few!!!!!!!!

bdare
04/28/2008, 07:05 AM
I heard that. I got these buckets back in Jan too so I really feel lucky.