Looking for a mantis tank

[hotimportknight]

I'm new to this forum, but have been on livingreefs for a while now. No one over there is really commenting on the mantis tank in the last few days, so I thought I would give it a shot here. Right now my mantis is in a 4.5 gallon tank with like 1/8" or less thick glass. maybe 1/16" even. Its very thin. I'm worried about my mantis breaking the glass, and I want to upgrade to a bigger tank. I live close to fosters and smith and want to take a trip up there tomorrow on my day off and get a new tank. I was thinking acrylic so it would withstand hits. I cant think of the type of mantis I have again, the store called it an "orange mantis" but its not, it was like a rainbow or something I think. Here is a picture http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff89/h0timportknight/Aquarium321.jpg
Its a spear type, but when it hits the glass it really sounds like it could break. I was going to get the eclipse 12 on sale at fosters and smith, but its on backorder and I want to do this tomorrow. Next option is a 12 gallon nano cube for $119.99. How thick is the glass? Do you think a slasher mantis will be a problem? How is the filtration on those?
What do you guys think?
Should I keep the cheap crushed coral in there? will that be ok for burrowing? or do I need some sand? Could I just cut a piece of PVC? And If so what size diameter? My mantis is about 3-4" long. Sorry for so many questions, and thanks in advance for any help!

[justinl]

okay, well first off, a P. ciliata (which is what you have) cannot break glass. that isnt your problem.

crushed coral as a substrate isnt the best, aragonite is best imo.

I assume you have live rock and for it to use for a burrow? If not then that would explain a bit about the mantis' condition (which is you main problem). are the black spots along its back just debris or are they actually in the mantis' carapace? this could be shell disease. see those little tufts of green along its back? If that's algae that is growing off the mantis, then there's a big problem. You need to black out that tank, feed enriched food every day, and keep pristine water quality while not even looking at the mantis until it (hopefully) molts. otherwise it's a goner. let it go too far and the algae rhizomes (algal root structure) will penetrate the carapace and not allow the animal to molt. this will kill it.

[Pea-brain]

To add to what justin said this mantis shouldn't be on cc because it is so rough and will wear on the shell of the mantis.

It should be in at least a 12 gallon tank

A PVC burrow would be best, twice the length of the mantis or 3X, 1.5X the wodth and in a curved U shape. They can also burrow under rocks in sand substrates.

Dan

[hotimportknight]

Thanks for the replies. That picture was from the day I got my mantis at a fish store in Madison where it sat for 3 years. Since then that algae has disappeared from its back. Its good to hear that this species cant break glass. Maybe I'll go with the 12g cube then and pick up a bag of argonite at fosters and smith today If the roads arent too bad. Anything else you guys can suggest right away to a new mantis enthusiast?

[DanInSD]

I'd be much more worried about that algae growing on the shell!

Dan

[hotimportknight]

As stated, the algae disappeared within days after getting the mantis. I'm thinking about getting the 12 gallon nano cube :
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3730+10677&pcatid=10677
My mantis should be ok in this tank correct? I really wanted to set something up and share a sump with my main display tank. But I think I would only do that if I got an acrylic tank and drilled the back for a simple overflow and return... Will the filtration be adequate on a nano cube do you guys think?

[justinl]

*sigh of relief* good to hear you got the mantis over the algae. how about a new pic? I love seeing the bright yellow P. ciliata morph.

yeah, that 12 should be fine. keep in mind that the mantis alone will be all the bioload you can put in that tank though. they are messy eaters. Just in case you'e interested, a mantis reef is possible (Ive done it with my G. smithii), but you will have to keep a very close eye on water quality.

[Feclar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11626515#post11626515 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hotimportknight
As stated, the algae disappeared within days after getting the mantis. I'm thinking about getting the 12 gallon nano cube :
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3730+10677&pcatid=10677
My mantis should be ok in this tank correct? I really wanted to set something up and share a sump with my main display tank. But I think I would only do that if I got an acrylic tank and drilled the back for a simple overflow and return... Will the filtration be adequate on a nano cube do you guys think?

The glass nano cube should work out well, this guy will not break glass.

The acrylic sump would also be very nice as long as it is 10g or more, this species likes to roam during the day.

Guess it depends on what would look best aesthetically in your house, a sump or a nano cube? I bet you will be checking out the mantis tank quite often.

Either create some nice caves with your LR or get a nice U shaped PVC tube, lay down your substrate then put your liverock on top of the PVC and you should be golden

p.s. I doubt fish will last long with this guy, but will be able to sustain an invert cleanup crew

[hotimportknight]

You think I can actually have a nassarius or something in there for cleanup? I was going to throw in a blue devil damsel once my friend gets it out of his tank. So far the mantis hasnt killed any feeder fish I threw in... Kinda disappointed about that. The idea I had was building an acrylic tank and drilling 2 holes, one to overflow as it fills and 1 return, both at the top. But the acrylic alone was 60$ + other stuff like weldon 4 and bulkheads and lights and so on... fosters and smith was 60 some bucks with lights and filter and hoods and stuff. its on sale right now from around 90$ I think, But then I saw the nano cube and thought that it looked like a nice clean design that would be way simpler than rigging an overflow and a return from my sump. They even have free stands with some of them right now. So I think im going to go with that route.
When you guys say get a U shaped PVC pipe, do you mean a pcv pipe cut in half? Or an actual curved piece of PVC?

[Feclar]

It may not eat till it feels secure with its burrow.

[justinl]

snails and hermits should be okay. should. some mantids can manage to actually pull an unfortunate snail or hermit out of the shell without having to crack the shell. I dont think they do this often though, especially if they are well fed. note that crabs are toast with a spearer because they have a vulnerable soft belly.

FW feeder fish you mean? dont feed those too often. they're probably not very nutritional. If a mantis is offered a dead easy meal vs. a live struggling fish that needs to be hunted down, it will go for the easy meal. starve the mantis for a few days then throw the fish in. odds are it will be hungry enough by then.

[gholland]

If you go with one of the "cube" type aquariums, you may want to do a quick mod to provide better surface skimming than the stock arrangement does. It's not that big of a deal though. I personally like them.

Originally posted by hotimportknight
When you guys say get a U shaped PVC pipe, do you mean a pcv pipe cut in half? Or an actual curved piece of PVC?
An actual curved piece of PVC.

[justinl]

theres a few things to be done to the AOI "plug and play" aquariums to really make them marine aquarium worthy. Just search around for what mods can/should be done to your specific one. I have a oceanic biocube that i modded a little bit.

[hotimportknight]

I got the 12 gallon nano cube today, and get it home and its larger than I expected, I could have gotten a free stand with the premium model, but decided I didnt have room. It wont fit on my desk where I was planning because the top has to lift up and backwards to get at the filter and all that stuff in the back... I have an audio tower, but I have NO idea if it will support around 100 lbs in the middle of the top... I searched online and couldnt find any info, has anyone ever tried putting a 12g cube on a tempered glass audio tower? Its basically the same thing as this, just slightly different colors. the glass is tempered 1/4" glass, my concern is that its only supported in the 4 corners. What do you guys think?

http://www.kohls.com/kohlsStore/furnitureandhomedecor/brandsforfurniture/bush/PRD~157529/Bush+Furniture+Midnight+Mist+Audio+Tower.jsp

[hotimportknight]

Anyone? Im anxious to get setting this up and don't really have many options for placement. Does anyone know if 1/4" tempered glass supported in 4 corners will hold a 12g nano cube filled? I can put my weight on it (130 lbs only) but thats short bursts of weight, not a long term pressure...

[justinl]

personally i wouldnt risk it... 1/4" isnt very thick.

[hotimportknight]

Thats what im kind of thinking, not sure what the options are now, but I'm bored want to get this mantis in a real tank ASAP. I guess it would be a good idea to not have 12 gallons of saltwater over my sony XBR tv, HD DVR box, surround sound, and my klipsch subs... I'm at a loss for finding a place for my new mantis home now... My room is very small until I transfer to a new school after this semester is done. Tomorrow I may try bracing the glass audio tower and trying that.

[hotimportknight]

I decided to reinforce the top of my audio tower with 2 pieces of wood along the middle. I jumped up and sat on top of it, so its plenty strong. I got the water in, used my old water in addition to new saltwater. I need more live rock now that ive got a bigger tank, hopefully tomorrow i'll get to the LFS before work. Here it is so far, 12 gallon nano cube, used the ceramic rings, 5 bio balls, carbon and filter sponge in the back that came with it, Never used anything like this before but it seems to be a good system. Here are a few pics so far. Not sure why, but the mantis hasnt went near the PVC yet... Let me know what you guys think.
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff89/h0timportknight/Aquarium411.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff89/h0timportknight/Aquarium416.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff89/h0timportknight/Aquarium410.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff89/h0timportknight/Aquarium417.jpg
The tank looks so blue under the new lights in pictures. Its not actually that bright in person, but it should turn more white when the lights break in. Let me know what you guys think, give a few ideas perhaps? Thanks!

[gholland]

You might consider smaller diameter pvc or provide some small rubble the ciliata can use to close the entrances up a bit.

[hotimportknight]

Alright, thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to go to the LFS in a few minutes, ill try to pick up some rubble. Someone said that this species should be able to be housed with a cleaning crew, what should be safe? I got some cheap hermits at fosters and smith on sale the other day, should I try one of them? Or some sort of snails? Basically could I add any inverts other than coral to the tank? I'm going to wait on the coral until the mantis gets the rocks situated how he wants.

[Simran]

I would have let that tank cycle for atleast a month before putting my mantis inside it...

[hotimportknight]

Its all substrate and rock from old tanks. 5/12 the water was old tank water as well. I don't think there will be any sort of die off at all. The live rock I picked up today was cured for a min of 2 months in a cow tank at the LFS.

[Pea-brain]

Snails and hermits will be fine, shrimp will be food, crabs will probly be food, serpent starfish will most likely be left alone, urchins will probly be fine.

Dan

[hotimportknight]

Thanks for the tip, a cleanup crew would be a nice thing to have! I got some rock and as many rubble pieces as the LFS had today, I kinda like the aqua scaping hopefully the mantis does and doesnt topple the nice rocks over and just plays with the 13 rubble pieces i scattered around the entrance to the burrow. Tried feeding him/her already but she grabbed it and started burying it, so after she turned her back I pulled it out and threw it in my DT. A Few more pic updates!:
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff89/h0timportknight/Aquarium420.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff89/h0timportknight/Aquarium419.jpg

[hotimportknight]

The reason for the fancy "dangerous" aqua-scaping is i'm hoping to get a blue devil out of my friends tank he wants gone, i'm going to test if the mantis will take to fish tank mates or if it will kill them.

[helipilot]

Great pictures, beautiful mantis. I would be nervous about the glass heater through.

[hotimportknight]

Oh yeah, I didnt even realize that. That stupid heater is just sitting in there because I havent gotten a small submersible yet. I want to get one of the little 50 watt submersible heaters to put in the back of my nano cube. Something like this, my friend uses it in his salt mixing bucket and I really like it, automatically keeps temp at 78 degrees no adjusting, and its really small so it would fit in the back of my cube. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=16756&Nty=1&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=All&N=2004&Ntt=heater&Np=1

I'd hope I dont have to worry about my mantis breaking glass though, I just got a new glass aquarium sitting above my 3400$ tv, ps3, hd DVr, klipsh sub, surround sound tuner and basically everything valuable I own... So i'm taking some advice when someone said that this species cant break glass. I still wont let my girlfriend or anyone taunt the mantis into attacking the glass.
Back to the heaters, what kind of heaters have you guys used in the back of cube aquariums? And what compartment did you put it in? I guess that cheap tetra one has a shut off if it gets too hot so in case the water level did evaporate too much it wouldnt over heat in the pump section.

[helipilot]

I agree with everyone that your mantis won't break the glass in your aquarium, but those glass heaters seem to break if you look at them wrong. I use the Visi-therm Stealth heaters, I believe they are just about bullet proof.

[Pea-brain]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11672174#post11672174 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hotimportknight
ps3

w00t! rock on! I support your decision heartily :D

Dan

[hotimportknight]

Thanks! Yeah I did like that visitherm stealth heater, my friend just picked one up like a week or 2 ago. My only issue is its 3" longer than the cheaper tetra one.
About the PS3, I also have a 360 (won it from Mt. dew) and a wii, because They were hard to find and it was right in front of me. I havent turned on the wii in 6 months, and someone is borrowing my 360 while his gets repaired. (I fixed mine myself due to Microsoft being *******s and not honoring a warranty) So I took mine apart and did a heat sink the way it should be done, so now every one borrows mine when theirs are being fixed for weeks on end.

[hotimportknight]

Last night late at night I woke up to some strange clicking sounds i've never heard before, I go to check it out and my mantis has the hermit I put in his tank pinned in a corner smacking it... I dont think he could kill it unless hermit crabs can get brain damage from shock... the shell is no longer in the place of the incident, either the mantis dragged it off, or it ran off after the attack and is hiding now. I'm glad the mantis finally started re decorating his burrow a little bit, it dragged in a bunch of substrate and partially covered the entrance. such cool creatures!

[gholland]

Sounds like fun! Glad it's finally settling in.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11620002#post11620002 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by justinl
crushed coral as a substrate isnt the best, aragonite is best imo.
Justin... did you mean "aragonite sand is best"... presumably because of the particle size? Because all modern coral skeletons are aragonite aren't they?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11620092#post11620092 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pea-brain
To add to what justin said this mantis shouldn't be on cc because it is so rough and will wear on the shell of the mantis.

And Dan... I'm just not convinced that crushed coral is going to be that rough on the shell of a mantis. At least mine never showed any signs. Coral just isn't that hard, plus any "damage" would be removed each time the mantis molts. Wouldn't it?

Sorry, but I just keep wondering about these two statments...
Greg

[Pea-brain]

Crushed coral isn't only hard, it has a rough exterior that causes abrasion. While it may not lead to the downfall it certainly isn't good for your mantis, especially with other substrates that don't trap detritus out there.

Dan

[justinl]

Dr roy mentioned a while back that it wears on the pleiopods of some mantids and can wear them down. Not a super terrible thing, but probably not too good for a display animal. at least it was something along those lines. cant remember the exact quote