Is there a Spa Flex Faq?

[Rustylugnuts]

I'm getting ready to build and plumb a calfo style overflow in a 40g to a 30g sump. I have a couple of questions.

Can regular sch40 fittings be used?
Do I need a special glue specific for flexible PVC?

Any links or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[shyland83]

yes use regular sched 40 fittings

Regular pvc cement works, but they do make a glue specifically for it, i believe it's called red hot

[Rustylugnuts]

Muchas Gracias

[BeanAnimal]

The red hot will work a LOT better than the regular glue. There is also s specific glue (similar to the Red Hot) made for the spa-flex.

Both the Red Hot and the purpose made glue have a much higher solids content than regular PVC cement.

[pescadero]

I was at Lowe's the other day and I did some reading on a laminated fact sheet that they had in the spa-flex display.

It turns out that Spa-Flex is a trademark of Watts company. The Watts fact sheet at Lowe's says that Spa-Flex is primarily intended for use with barbed fittings, though regular Sch 40 fittings can be used alternately. This is not in agreement with the majority of posts that I've read on RC that claim that Spa-Flex is designed to be used with Sch 40 fittings and barbed fittings are not recommended. According to the manufacturer, that's just not true.

As far as glues go, I've often read on RC that special glues are required for use with Spa-Flex. Oatey Rain-N-Shine is commonly recommended instead of the regular PVC glues. The Oatey manufacturer's display at Lowe's specifically mentioned that Rain-N-Shine is indented for gluing that has to be performed in wet weather conditions (like rain). It said nothing about its superiority for use on Spa-Flex. In fact, the Oatey display seemed to suggest that the Green Label heavy duty PVC cement was their best product to use on Spa-Flex tubing. Go figure.

Bean, I'm not familiar with Red Hot. Do you know where I can go for more information? Unfortunately lots of the posts I've read on RC seem to contradict what the product manufacturer's have said, so I'd like to get the straight scoop.

TIA.

[BeanAnimal]

The "red hot blue" is made by Christy's It is pretty much the same as the "Rain-n-Shine". Both have a higher solids content and are thicker. They fill gaps much better and form a stronger bond, more like glue instead of just solvent.

Now to the other part. "Watts Water Technologies" is a huge conglomerate that has purchased just about every plumbing product company that they can get their hands on. They can barely tell you what they sell anymore, let alone how to use it. It is sad actually.

You will find that MANY large companies put out very poor information to end users, much if ut dumbed down for the HD and LOWES DIY crowd. If you were to go around HD and read all of the recomendations on lables, the outright BAD information would scare you.

Flex PVC has a lot of plasticizers in it. They (the plasicizers) make it harder to bond. A high solids content, flexible glue is recomended.

The Spa-flex brochure at the HD is nonsense, even if it is from the manufacturer. Yup, I did not stutter, it is NONSENSE.

Like I said, the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing with many of these companies or worse, they just don't care.

The pipe is most certainly designed (and intended) to fit standard PVC fittings, not barbed fittings. It is a staple of the pool and spa industry and has been for 30 years. You will find that the "spa" industry uses "deep socket" fittings where possible. This helps to ensure a pressure rated bond.

So WATTS is marketing the same stuff to end users via big box stores and has printed up a silly leaflet to make the DIYer comfortable with the product AND at the same time allowed the big box store to get away with carrying one less product/sku that will barely sell. Yup, I did not stutter... the brochure is nonsense marketing aimed at DIYers who don't know better.

FWIW: Spa-flex does not easily fit standard barbed fittings. Moreover, due it its thickness a barb that fits the ID will create a HUGE flow restriction.

Aquascape products is one FLEX pvc glue manufacturer
http://www.pondepot.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=733

Oatay makes a Flex product as well:
http://www.oatey.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/165/PVC+Flexible+Clear+Cement+.html
http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/instance_assets/assets/Photo/Flexible_PVC_Clear.jpg

[BlakDuc]

I can not comment on the "best glue," but I have used the regular Oatley with no problems.

As to why you don't want to use barbed fittings; Say you are using 1" spa flex for your plumbing, using regular schedule 40 elbows and such, you won't really get any restrictions in the line. Now take a barbed 1" fitting and insert it into the spa flex, now you will likely have somewhere between a 1/2"-3/4" restriction in the line. Unless you are trying to put restriction in the line, why would you do this? This stuff is pretty ridgid to begin with, I can't imagine that it would be easier to force a barbed fitting into it than to just glus it into a union fitting if it is something that might need to be disconnected in the future. There are many ways to do everything in this hobby, some work, some don't. It is up to you to figure out what method will work best for you. Hopefully this will shed some light on it for you, or at least give you something to think about.

[Rustylugnuts]

Before today I was vaguely aware why I wanted Spa Flex (reduction of head loss, ease of use, vibration dampening. Anyone care to list additional benefits?) but, I couldn't find much on the how. This is EXACTLY the type of response I was hoping for. Information dense content peppered with personal experience. To all who have posted (and will post), Thanks.

[pescadero]

Thanks for the info. I had already been to the Oatey site, and I had seen the "flexible PVC cement" that Bean had mentioned. The problem has been that I've never been able to find it in the stores.

Interestingly, I've read lots of posts here on RC that say "get the Oatey stuff in the light blue lablel," or "use Oatey Rain-N-Shine." I wonder if there might be some confusion among RC users in communicating which glue they're talking about, as both Oatey Rain-N-Shine and Oatey Flexible PVC Cement have baby blue labels. Look here:
http://www.oatey.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroup/1/Regular+Cements+and+Primers.html

If you read the product descriptions, there's nothing about Rain-N-Shine that says its suitable for Spa-Flex type applications. I wonder if the people who are recommending it are mistaking it for the Flexible PVC Cement because the labels are the same color!

FWIW, this is the stuff that I have been using:
http://www.oatey.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/2/PVC+Heavy+Duty+Clear+Cement.html
http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/instance_assets/assets/Photo/PVC_Clear_HD_31008.jpg

the Heavy Duty stuff in the darker green label is the heaviest-bodied stuff that Oatey makes. Its the product that's rated for filling in gaps and for bonding 12-inch pipe. Most of the other stuff isn't rated for pipe over 6-inches. Both of the baby blue labeled products are medium bodied cements, and apparently have a lower dissolved solids content.

According to the manufacturer, the dark green labeled Heavy Duty stuff meets ASTM D-2564 (the same standard mentioned in the Flexible PVC Cement writeup). It also says that its "Recommended for ALL grades and types of PVC pipe and fittings, potable water, pressure pipe, gas, conduit and DWV."

Does this mean that its also good for Spa-Flex?

[BeanAnimal]

Yes, the medium cemetns have lower solids content. The solids content is only part of the reason that the heavy cement is recomended for 6" or larger pipes. The heavy cement does not evaporate as fast and ensures that large pipes have fully wetted joint :)

Anyway,

It should be fine for your non-pressure application. Just be aware that you don't want the glue joint to hold the shape of the pipe that is under pressure due to flex. Use a heat gun or the oven to heat and shape the spa-flex.

[liveforphysics]

As a guy who is pretty comfortable with plumbing, I changed my method for bonding spa-flex a couple of times.

I first used the method that was printed right down the side of the hose. It reads something like "Primer all connection surfaces before bonding". I used purple primer, hated the connection stregnth, hated that they dripped, and hated that I could just pull the piece out of the deep socket fitting after 24hrs of cure time using rain-n-shine.

So, I changed primers, and had a bottle of the oatey flex-pvc glue special ordered for me. I tried various waiting periods between primer and glue. Nothing got me a bond I was happy with.

So, I visited a spa shop, and they said never to primer spa-flex, and to use the all-purpose glue in the red and white can that you can use to bond ABS with PVC. So, I tried it, and now I can never pull my spa flex connections apart, and they never leak. I'm finally happy with spa-flex.

I should add someting here. I've never had trouble bonding 1" spa-flex. It's the 2" sized stuff that would always just peel out of the socket under side loading. I think using 1" you can get away with anything and not have problems.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[BlakDuc]

^^^Good to know^^^

[BeanAnimal]

I agree 100%, the primer ruins the joint on the flex PVC. I had the same exact problem.

[pescadero]

so is the consensus of opinion then, that with Spa-Flex you shouldn't use purple primer or the yellow cleaner product before applying the cement? or if you have to use cleaner, you should wait for it to dry thoroughly and for the surface to re-harden before applying the cement?

thanks for the idea about the heat gun and the oven. ;)

[liveforphysics]

No primer at all. I tried letting it dry for hours before cementing with flex-pvc glue. The connection was still crap.

No primer, and the glue that works best is the weakest of all the glues. It's the all purpose stuff that is kinda semi-gummy after it cures. I think the flex enables it to prevent the spa-flex from developing a stress focus point under stress and starting a tear that just works it's way down the connection until failure occurs. The flex-of the all purpose glue seems to bonding effectively. I see this same problem in my engineering material science bonding work. Glues that flex are crucial when bonding materials that flex.

This of course goes against everything you will read from the product literature. Also, I agree solidly with Bean here, nipples would be assured doom, and product info you get at a hardware store is often comical.

[coop47]

I just re-did the two drain lines on my 29g this past Friday, replacing 1" pvc and elbows with SpaFlex. I used the regular primer/glue that I had left over from normal pvc applications (because the 'plumbing expert' at Lowes said thats what should be used *sigh*).

The bond cured just like normal, held firm despite me and the BF playing tug-o-war with it, and hasn't leaked. I know its only been a couple days, but just to add a bit of personal experience to the above statement, with smaller diameter pipe, you can get away with using the regular glue.

Not that I wouldn't recommend getting the correct tool for any job, but if your local store doesn't have the special type on hand, or (like me) you are just glueing two little joints, you can save the money/shipping time and just use the normal stuff.

[cpl40475]

OK quick question.
I have 1.5 spa flex im getting ready to hook up on my 180 (finally setting it up). Will the regular oatey all purose cement (red and white can) work for this? As I read both threads im a lil more confused. As i understand i dont use the cleaner at all is this even on the sch 40 pvc? Its goingto be hooked up to a Dolphin Amp master 6500/7500 set up on a closed loop. Any help or suggestios will be greatly appreciated.
Tracy

[kgross]

My first suggestion to you is dump the 1.5 inch pump and move up to at leaste 2 inch with that pump. With 1.5 inch pipe you will be creating a lot of frictional head loss and will reduce the flow from that pump quite a bit. I would suggest you do 2 2inch inlets to the pump, T them as close to the pump as you can, and do the same for the outlets a T close to the pump and then 2 2inch lines until you start going into the tank.

Kim

[Esquare]

I'm just finnishing up my plumbing so I'll chime in with my experience (please note that I am a noob to sw so take this with a grain of salt) :)

I used a mix of 1" pvc, 1" spa flex, high pressure nylon wound hose, low pressure clear hose and I thing I threw a couple of straws in there to boot. :)

For the spa flex I used Weldon Pool & Spa with the clear cleaner primer. The joints are still new but I can't twist pull or wrestle them out. I also used the barbe fittings as my AGA 54 corner came with them for the predrilled overflow. I wasn't going to use the barb type for the reasons previously atated (flow restriction) but since that's what came with the tank from AGA I used them. I did cheat a little and used my heat gun to warm up the spa flex first so they slid on like a charm.

Again, just my expierence to add to the discussion.

[cpl40475]

with 1.5 it will still produce 6500 gph

[cpl40475]

hit wrong button a sec ago. My tank is already drilled so im kinda stuck. I have 4 outputs and one input already drilled.

[kgross]

How many feet of 1.5 inch pipe can you have on that pump and still get 6500 gph out of it?

I would guess that 6000 gph in 1.5 inch pipe would create quite a bit of friction Actually according to this
http://www.freecalc.com/frdiresl.htm?job_num=&client=&date=&line_num=&fluid=&pipesize=1.5&rough=PVC+PIPE&flow=100&vis=1&spg=1&temp=70&length=0&entrance=1&exit=1&detailCalc.x=92&detailCalc.y=35
6000 gph through 10 feet of 1.5 inch pvc pipe gives you pressure loss of 6.6 psi or 15 feet of head pressure.

According to Dolphins pump charts once you get 4 feet of head on that pump you are already below 6000 gph.

But if you think you can get 6500 gph out of that pump with 1.5 inch plumbing do it.

[8BALL_99]

I use the PVC cleaner stuff in the yellow/white can then I glue it with Rain or Shine glue.. This seems to work well for me.. The purple primer will screw up the joint. After using purple primer I could always just twist the joints apart.. Even had a few leaks before I figured out the problem..

FWIW I ordered Flexiable PVC glue from aquatic systems and they sent me rain or shine lol.. But it did mention Flexiable PVC on the can so I didnt complain..

[cpl40475]

so the rain or shine is the best then. I've done a search on spa flex and it seems some ppl use this or that and some use purple primer some dont some dont even use primer. This is getting very confusing lol.
Tracy

[Rustylugnuts]

The local lowes didn't have any flex pvc glue so I went with liveforphysics suggestion and grabbed some of the oatey pvc to abs glue. I've finished the drilling and baffle/overflow installation but midterms are goin hot and heavy. With 3 tests and a lab practical on wednesday I'm going to be worthless plumbing wise so it might be a week or so before I get to report back with my progress.

[8BALL_99]

Well I think the main thing is that there is more then one way of doing it.. I think most agree the purple primer causes probems with spa flex.. But that rain or shine, The green heavy duty, red hot and even the multi purpose glue in the red can all seem to work. Now if you want to find out what glue out of these is the best then I think thats going to be a little hard to call.. I've used all of these except for the red hot. The rain or shine seems to work better for me.. But Ive never did any tests or anything. As long as it doesnt leak who cares lol..

[cpl40475]

i think ill take my chances with the rain or shine lol

[cpl40475]

Got another question bout SPA FLEX. I started running everything last night and it is very tight fitting. I really have to force it into the fittings. Is this normal?
Tracy

[jh2pizza]

According to Savko, they also state not to use any type of primer when joining Spa Flex.