Hidden Dangers Of The Euphyllia!

[JENnKerry]

Yes, they are pretty and flowy and make nice additions to all of our tanks. But we do forget sometimes the power of nature. This past week, I have been fragging out my Frogspawn and Hammer colonies. Because I have to move them around, brush up against them...basically anger them in every way possible to re-aquascape. I ended up paying the price BIG TIME! This is my right forearm, on the top and bottom of my arm is covered with rashy stings that itch and burn.
When the sting happens, you know it! It burns like nothing I have felt before. It just goes to show, that no matter how much you know your tank, you gotta be careful. Your still dealing with nature and they dont know your NOT a enemy.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b226/JennKerry/Sting.jpg

[J. Montgomery]

Word . . . I'm starting to think that the "burns" I've received in my tank might be coming from my hammer and frogspawn. I get what look like fire ant bites on my hands. They itch for about a week or two before they finally clear :(

[VaderWS6]

I never get burned from mine. The only thing that stings me are hydroids.

[sufunk]

Wow!!! That's pretty bad!

My frog and torch have never stung me even when fragging them or re-aquascaping:confused: The only damage i've ever had from my tank is my hand looking like you arm when my carpet anemone wrapped around it while i was feeding a suncoral.

Oh, and an unbelievable bruise in the webbing between thumb and forefinger from not paying attention while handling my Tunze magnets!:eek2:

[seapug]

Looks exactly like what has happened to me in the past with my hammer coral. I got so tired of it I took it out of the tank. I never felt anything when it first happens. It was a couple hours later that I got the rash. It itched a little bit but looked a lot worse than it felt.

[chujai]

could it be possible different people could have different effects? i too never had any stinging from them. just wondering.

[seapug]

Some people are more sensitive than others, but frogspawns and hammers are notorious for leaving rashes. It also depends where it makes contact. I only got a rash when it made contact with the inside of my arm. Fingers and/or calloused skin aren't affected as easily.

[sufunk]

That would make sense. I dont think my frog or torch have ever touched anything but my fingers or palms.

[JENnKerry]

Every time I go near my frogspawn or hammer, I happen to come in contact with them. And every time I do, I end up looking like this! This time is more so because I was primarily moving them around. I wasnt careful about what touched me and for how long, I was on a mission and didnt really know how bad it was until later in the day.
I find myself waking up in the middle of the night scratching like mosquito bites. I used Gold Bond anti itch cream lastnight, it seemed to help alot

[THP]

Very, very true. I have been stung with the same rash (from a torch coral) on my hand. The torch had been falling off the rockwork for several days in a row so the last time he fell, I grabed the skeleton with my fingers and thumbs with the torch portion touching the inside of my hand. The sting was almost instantaneous and burnt like fire. The rash that followed looked very much like what you received. Strange thing is, I have handled that coral many times before and after but that is the only time it stung me.

[JENnKerry]

If they can control when they inflate and deflate, Im sure they can control when they sting. Complex little creatures we keep in our living rooms!

[Myrddraal]

I don't use them currently either, but shoulder-length reef gloves are sounding more and more like a good idea.

[thecichlidpleco]

I usually get a rash that goes away in a few hours, but I am allergic to bees and I still do not break out as bad as you.

[kstallbe]

I've discussed this sorta thing with a doctor friend of mine. Repeated exposure to things that cause rashes (corals, poison ivy, whatever) leads to an increased adverse reaction. In other words "the body develops an immune response that will become increasingly more severe with subsequent exposures"

So, you may be exposed once a week and never have a reaction. But successive daily contact might make the reaction appear. I believe this is called sensitization.

[sufunk]

Weird, i would have thought the opposite is true:confused:

Wouldn't repeat exposure cause de-sensitization????

[kstallbe]

Only if you're talking drugs! No, but seriously... the way it was explained to me is that upon the first exposure your body has a mild immunologic response and produces some fun things that say "hey cells, get ready to fight."

If the allergen stays out of the 'hood, the battle is over and the cells chill out. However, if the allergen returns, the battle ready cells go buck nutty and inflammation results (skin rash, et cetera).

If you can stomach all the nitty gritty, it is explained in detail under the Physiology section of Allergy in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergy)

Keith

[sufunk]

Of course!

Poisons affect us more and more but drugs affect us less and less. How's that fair!!!!:cool:

[xraydoc]

Well, basically most of the injuries we receive from our tanks are a result of a cell mediated response resulting in delayed type hypersensitivity. In immunology, this is referred to as type IV hypersensitivity, and if you would like to learn more about it you can google the term.

The rash most of us have gotten is contact dermatitis, which is a manifestation of type IV hypersensitivity. Other causes, poison sumac/ivy/oak, many metals such as nickel and different chemicals in soaps, lotions, etc...

Fortunately for me I could roll in poison ivy and not get the business. We are all different and not all respond the same way to different allergens. If for instance you are exposed to poison ivy (and are allergic) you can wash the exposed areas with soap and water (soon after exposure) and prevent the response (usually.) I wonder if that may work if brushed by a coral...?

[kstallbe]

Thanks for weighing in Doc!

[mg426]

Ouch looks pretty nasty, I will be keeping an eye on my foggies from now on.

[ACBlinky]

I sympathize, I get the same type of rash from Euphyllia corals. It would be itchy and red, somewhat bumpy right away, then looked even worse on day two. A few days later it usually scabbed over a bit, then disappeared. *Sigh* I really miss my LPS corals, even though they used to bite me!

For anyone like us that reacts to these guys, gloves are a great solution. It takes getting used to, because they're so thick and bulky, but it's a much nicer alternative to having a rash. Gloves also keep skin oils and any cleaning products, bacteria or other things we may have picked up during the day from entering our tanks.

[dendro982]

Looks to me like an individual sensitivity - I have no troubles with hammers and frogspawns, but always have troubles with bare-handed LR handling, and it has cumulative effect.

The same things, as on the first picture, are covering my better half after just breathing in LFS, if anti-allergic medications weren't used before it :(

My sympathy to you.

[JENnKerry]

Thank you for all the sympathy! And some empathy :) from you lucky ones! I like using gloves but I dont at the same time. Bulky is one of the reasons, and pressure on what I pick up. I like knowing how much pressure Im using to move or pick up a coral. I have a hard time judging when I use gloves. I told Kerry that Im gonna get some plastic Saran Wrap and wrap up my arm up to my elbow if Im gonna be a while in the tank. I know it sounds wierd and dumb but my hands never get stung, just my arm. So, if I can get arm protection from plastic wrap, GREAT! Worth a try atleast

[atzak]

I had the same thing happen from a frogspawn, don't worry, the rash only lasted about 6 weeks. It only happened once, maye you build a tolerance after one good stinging

[JENnKerry]

I always have this happen to me, I cant escape the wrath of my Hammies and Froggies!

[ACBlinky]

Plastic wrap's not a bad idea, that's very creative! You could also try the thin one-time use gloves that vets and farmers use for horses and cattle - they're available at co-ops and feed stores, and any large or even small animal vet clinic can order them in for you. I've tried them and found they were too thin for working with rock, but brilliant for fragging, epoxy and glue work. Even if they get a hole in them and your hand gets wet, you'd be protected from stinging cells hitting your arm, and they're very thin so you don't have the bulk or loss of feeling you get with thick gloves.

BTW, the hammer in your avatar is stunning. If you ever want to sell a frag, let me know -- I'm allergic to them like you are, but I promise I'd give it a very nice home :D

[JENnKerry]

Hey ACBlinky...you gonna die when I tell you this...Im currently selling these frags! I have more then I can handle, I have them listed in the NJ Forum. BUT...I dont ship :( I had too many DOA's. It seems that this area really man-handles the packages. Even though I do my best to pack them tightly, still I end up getting emails that they didnt make it or they are on their way out.

[HoopsGuru]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11779734#post11779734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JENnKerry
If they can control when they inflate and deflate, Im sure they can control when they sting. Complex little creatures we keep in our living rooms!

Corals don't have brains, so they don't actively think when to do anything. The tips of the polyps tentacles have stinging nematocysts in them (imagine a barbed hook almost) that are triggered by touch in an auto reponse. As stated, people have various responses just like allergies. Do be aware that repetitive stings can likely become more intense over time and that anaphylatic shock is a potential just like with bee stings.

[lfjewett]

Ok after reading this thread what I can't get is why does anyone put their hand in a reef tank without gloves? If you think about it, now only are you risking coral stings as can be seen here but fireworms, zoa's and others.. Not to mention all the Oils/Soap residue on our skin that I'm sure the reef inhabitants don't like. We should start a poll how many use gloves vs those whom go comando.

[JENnKerry]

I have kept fish in general for 23 years, and Im only 31, so I have been doing this basically my entire life. Kerry, he became a fish lover after he met me, that was 10 years ago.
Im not particularly "afraid" of what resides in my tanks. Even working at a fish store, no one wears gloves. Stupid? Who knows, maybe. If your particularly afraid, yes, wear gloves. I have been taking stings from my corals for the last 8 years, not dead yet, no scars, just stings.
My point of starting this thread was to show the THREAT of what certain corals can inflict on you whether your not effected by it (lucky ones) or are effected like me.
Yes, I have had my run-ins with bristle worms and coral stings and this is the worst my arm has EVER been. Im not scared of my tank though.
Its part of the hobby, thats the way I see it. You take what comes.

To comment on that corals dont have brains....I never stated they had brains, nervous systems, eyes or any other decision making anatomy on them. I just said that they can inflate, deflate, send sweepers when they sense other corals are in there growing territory, accept food AND eat it. Animals in general are more complex and smarter then we ever give them credit for. And we have learned more about the coral reefs in the last 15 years then we have since the dawn of time. So, we do have very complex little creatures that we keep in our living rooms. Sometimes they sting, sometimes they dont, whether its how our immunity is working that very day or is it the corals response, I dont know.

[Bonebrake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11781530#post11781530 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xraydoc
Well, basically most of the injuries we receive from our tanks are a result of a cell mediated response resulting in delayed type hypersensitivity. In immunology, this is referred to as type IV hypersensitivity, and if you would like to learn more about it you can google the term.

The rash most of us have gotten is contact dermatitis, which is a manifestation of type IV hypersensitivity. Other causes, poison sumac/ivy/oak, many metals such as nickel and different chemicals in soaps, lotions, etc...

Fortunately for me I could roll in poison ivy and not get the business. We are all different and not all respond the same way to different allergens. If for instance you are exposed to poison ivy (and are allergic) you can wash the exposed areas with soap and water (soon after exposure) and prevent the response (usually.) I wonder if that may work if brushed by a coral...?

Xraydoc is right on.

I want to be a radiologist too! :)

[Sheol]

I think that your sex might play a role here. Its the softer skin. But I cannot say since I do not own Euphllyia corals. I do have a bubble though, and I've been warned about skin contact with that. The worse thing in my tank for handling are those Rhodactis "shrooms! No rashes, but they knock your pain sense out. This is not REALLY a good thing, because I get scraped up. & then it wears off in the tank.. Oucch!!

Matthew
Got to buy those reef gloves.

[stringcheese]

I touched something on my LR like 6 months ago with my finger....AND I STILL CAN'T FEEL ANYTHING THERE!!!!

[HoopsGuru]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11788007#post11788007 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JENnKerry
To comment on that corals dont have brains....I never stated they had brains, nervous systems, eyes or any other decision making anatomy on them. I just said that they can inflate, deflate, send sweepers when they sense other corals are in there growing territory, accept food AND eat it. Animals in general are more complex and smarter then we ever give them credit for. And we have learned more about the coral reefs in the last 15 years then we have since the dawn of time. So, we do have very complex little creatures that we keep in our living rooms. Sometimes they sting, sometimes they dont, whether its how our immunity is working that very day or is it the corals response, I dont know.

Hope I didn't annoy you with my earlier response but how you worded things such as referring to corals' being "smart" made it seem as though they are making choices or decisions, i.e. some sort of brain function. My point was only that a coral, such as a Euphyllia, does not choose to sting anything...the mechanism is spring loaded to react on contact. Just trying to give information.

[ACBlinky]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11786670#post11786670 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JENnKerry
Hey ACBlinky...you gonna die when I tell you this...Im currently selling these frags! I have more then I can handle, I have them listed in the NJ Forum. BUT...I dont ship :( I had too many DOA's. It seems that this area really man-handles the packages. Even though I do my best to pack them tightly, still I end up getting emails that they didnt make it or they are on their way out. Wow, that's a real bummer. Sure you don't want to try one more time, perhaps with a different courier company? I'm trying to rebuild our LPS collection -- we lost most everything in an awful move to a new city -- and that hammer is REALLY special... I've honestly never seen its equal. If you want to talk about it, send me a PM -- if you're positive it wouldn't make it, that's okay and we won't worry about it, but I'm willing to try :)

[lfjewett]

I agree with most of what you've said Jen, it's playing the laws of averages. Just like wearing a seat belt. I've been driving a car for 15 years and I've only needed it once. But I still put it on before driving.

On the other side of the coin have you ever had a situation where you unknowingly put something into your tank that had adverse effects? Left over antibacterial soap residue, oil from lotions, drop a chicken nugget in the tank (don't ask me how I did it, It just happened ok).

[kstallbe]

That's a good question. I've not had that experience but would be interested in hearing some of those stories!

Well, maybe I sorta have one, but I didn't 'put it' into the tank. My cat got the bright idea of trying to leap from a nearby table up onto the hanging MH light fixture... Needless to say, it wasn't so cool. He slipped off immediately and got his back paws kicking at the live rock and made his way out half dunked.

Not so bad all in all... rocks just had to be picked up. However, i was in the middle of a 'moment' with my lady friend that got ruined by our unstoppable laughter at the wet cat, which usually looks fat but because he was wet looked about a 1/3 of his size and was running scared for his life! Heheheheee

[LobsterOfJustice]

This sucker stings the CRAP out of me! I have had it for maybe two years, never noticed anything until a few months ago. I think it has something to do with size... larger size simply means more nematocysts going into you. Or maybe it prioritizes growth until a certian size, then nematocyst production. I should say I am not particularly sensitive to stings, and no other euphyllia, or any other corals or anemones have had any affect on me (but none have been this large). Also placement... any time I need to reach into the back corner of the tank, the underside of my forearm brushes up against this. Burning painful itch soon follows...

Sorry for the bad pics... dirty glass and actinics only + natural sunlight (halides havent come on yet).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/LobsterOfJustice/100_1517.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/LobsterOfJustice/100_1518.jpg

[pacificfloor]

I have a rash on my forearm from my hammer coral that hasn't gone away for at least three months now. I'm afraid it's becoming perma-rash. I have handled or brushed up against that coral several times over the course of a year and haven't had a problem, but I apparently developed sensitivity to it.

In the course of about 6 months my coral has grown from one branch about 1 inch in diameter to about 30 branches/heads totaling about 10 inches across; now everytime I try to clean the sides of the tank I brush against it, no matter how hard I try to stay away from it. I have aquagloves but refuse to use them most of the time since I lose too much dexterity with them.

I'm not sure it's stinging that causes the rash. I think it may be related to having tiny particles of the fragile coral skeleton embedded under the skin (as you would receive from brushing up against the corallites). I have also wondered if it has something to do with size, but wouldn't a single fully-developed head have the same nematocysts that multiple heads possess? On the other hand, LobsterofJustice does have a point about the number of nematocysts.

For this reason, I tend to believe that 1) the coral has been "stinging" me all along and I've only recently developed aquired sensitivity to contact with the fleshy tissue of Euphyllias, or 2) it's fragments of coral skeleton under my skin that my body is battling to remove, and that's why the rash is lasting so long.

Does my second theory pass the smell test?

I hope this rash goes away - it's kind of embarrassing to be honest!

[kstallbe]

I would venture to guess, not being an m.d. or anything, that it's still just an allergic reaction. If you had anything embedded for an extended period it would more likely begin to show signs of infection (pus) or permanent healing over (scar tissue). WEAR THE GLOVES!

Good luck!