just been bitten by blue ring

[fish lad]

about 3 mins ago

what do i do, i am off to hospital now! what do i tell them?

PLEASE FFS I AM SERIOUS am i going to die

[waif]

Bite it back?

[waif]

Seriously go to the hospital

[Pea-brain]

I hope you are kidding...

If you are not have them put you on life support for 24 hours. The venom will flush out of your system by then. While it is in your body cannot support itself.

Dan

[TellyFish]

Just for reference, the ReefCentral Forums cannot and should not be considered an acceptable alternative to 911.

Seriously, I hope everything is OK.

[Animal Mother]

I don't think the first I would do if I was bitten by a blue ring would be jump on here and wait for an answer.

[Phyxius]

I dont think I would be posting here as first thought either. I knew these were bad if bitten but a quick search brought up this:

The bite of the blue-ringed octopus may be painless but it is definitely deadly. Its venom contains some maculotoxin which is more violent than any animals found on land. This poison is 10,000 times more potent that cyanide. Upon being bitten, the victim's nerve conduction is stopped and paralysis sets in after a few minutes. Paralysis is then followed by death. Some symptoms are as follows:

*Nausea

*Blindness

*Loss of all other senses

If you do see someone get bit you should immediately call 911, and then apply compression to the wound as if it was a snake bite. Artificial respiration should also be started as soon as possible. The only way to survive is hours of heart massage and artificial respiration until the poison has worked its way out of the system. There is no anit-venom to date.

[Echidna09]

FYI the toxin blue rings have is Tetrodotoxin, or TTX; the same thing that is found in Fugu. There was a little vile that was supposed to cure the poison somewhere online. The price tag was $500 for I believe only one treatment. To my knowledge, research has not been done to find out whether or not a blue ring is as poisonous when it is in captivity, and it is believed that captive specimens do not carry a sufficient amount of TTX to kill a human. You still need to be extremely careful though and don't experiment!

I don't think I believe it either. Seems like a troll to me...

If you really did get bit I wish you the best on a recovery.

[Thales]

Their bite is apparently not always toxin laden, like Echidna says so, if this isn't a troll I hope this is the case an you are just fine. FWIW, there seems to be conflicting reports of toxicity in captivity.

Otherwise, to anyone choosing to keep potentially deadly animals, be sure to know what to do if you are bitten BEFORE you are bitten.

[andygb54303]

no response he must have died, a moment of silence please.

i dont beleive it

[MonkeyKeeper911]

who gets bit then jumps online and makes a post saying ok im going to the hospital now.

[Gonodactylus]

I assume this was a troll and that no harm was done. However, it did point out to me how much misinformation there is about blue-rings.

First, it is correct that the active toxin in Hapalochlaena species that have been studied to date is TTX. However, that includes only H. fasciata, H. maculosa and H. lunulata. There are probably another half dozen or so species out their that have not been described or studied. The assumption is that they have TTX. How much is open to speculation.

Second, there are absolutely no data to my knowledge that report a loss of toxicity in any blue-ring when it is kept in the aquarium. There have been suggestions that this happens with puffers, but it has not been reported in blue-rings. It is a topic that we are working on, but the the data are not yet in. Therefore, one should assume that any blue-ring contains a lethal dose of TTX.

Third, death from a blue-ring envenomation is due to the cessation of breathing. Ventilation is sometimes called for, but one would want to leave the heart along unless a health professional detects a problem.

Fourth, there is no currently approved anti-venom.

Fifth, if you plan on keeping a blue-ring, you should do what we do - notify local emergency responders and ER's that you have such an animal and that it possesses TTX. That way, if you are transported to an emergency facility, the medics will know what they are dealing with. In fact, every blue-ring tank in our lab has a warning label describing what it contains and how to deal with an emergency .

Roy

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11872401#post11872401 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gonodactylus
[B]
Second, there are absolutely no data to my knowledge that report a loss of toxicity in any blue-ring when it is kept in the aquarium. There have been suggestions that this happens with puffers, but it has not been reported in blue-rings. It is a topic that we are working on, but the the data are not yet in. Therefore, one should assume that any blue-ring contains a lethal dose of TTX.

Thanks Roy! Is it true that they can bite without 'injecting' TTX?

[Gonodactylus]

The venom delivery system is passive. The salivary ducts empty near the beak, so the TTX basically dribbles into the wound. This means that circumstances of the bite will vary. Also, there is some debate on whether TTX will penetrate the skin if there is not a bite.

Roy

[Thales]

Thanks for the clarifications Roy.

[Twisted]

Glad to see such and expert on the forums with such a dangerous species available to the public.
You would not beleive how many people I have had come into the store that saw one online and wants me to order them one.
I usually refuse, unless they can give me some specifics on keeping them, then I know they atleast researched them.

[Plankt0s]

why don't you just not ever order one for anyone... The only people that should have animals like this are the people that are studying them professionally. If we the hobbyist are not more responsible than to own such a deadly animal than there eventually will be some type of control placed on this and other animals limiting what we will be able to keep.

[Twisted]

If I don't order them for anyone, am I not already limiting what you may keep?

[Thales]

:D

[Twisted]

How are you Rich? Didn't see you at the MARS swap last weekend.
I am thinking about doing a Cephlapod soon, so might ask you your opinion on a couple things once the tank is up and running to see what you think, and suggest, if you don't mind. That won't be for a good 6 months though.

[Thales]

Im super, thanks for asking. :D

I couldn't make it to the swap - way too much going on. I heard it was good though. Do you think you'll make it to the BAR regional swap in August?

Ask away when you are ready, but I think you'll want one of these:

http://stickycricket.com/cuttle/hatchlings/eggshow/bin/images/large/DSC_7425_cuttlewithdime.jpg

:D

[Twisted]

Whats max size on him, are those ones reef safe by chance? He would look great in my 55 gallon reef, but my anemone would eat him.

Bar swap should be a go for me, my baby is due in April, so hopefully the wife will be willing to let me go.

Mars we had like 30 people show up between the Redding club and the Chico club, so hopefully we can get close to that again for BAR, a bit more of a drive though.

[Freed]

If you're stupid enough to have a blue ring then the consequences should come as no surprise to you when you get bit. That's just too funny:)

[trae]

[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11821932#post11821932 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Phyxius
[B]I dont think I would be posting here as first thought either. I knew these were bad if bitten but a quick search brought up this:

The bite of the blue-ringed octopus may be painless but it is definitely deadly. Its venom contains some maculotoxin which is more violent than any animals found on land. This poison is 10,000 times more potent that cyanide. Upon being bitten, the victim's nerve conduction is stopped and paralysis sets in after a few minutes. Paralysis is then followed by death. Some symptoms are as follows:



**** ** *Loss of all other senses******
Common senses?
Now i see why he waited to die Bwaaa!!:lol:

[FishyMel]

I think this guy was pulling our legs, I seriously doubt he came and posted this and then went to the hospital. Then he never posted again...

Anyway fro whay I've heard only 3 have died from a bluering in history and their beak is usually to small to penetrate human skin. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Twisted]

I would like to know what the chances of this guy actually biting you is.
I mean the risk of even 1% is stoo much for me, but what are the real facts behind it, I assume Gonodactylus probablly knows more about it then most since he is involved with the research...

[Animal Mother]

They aren't real aggressive. They aren't likely to go out of their way to bite, but people in Australia do get bit while swimming around the areas where blue-rings are common (smart huh?), and fishermen in other countries where blue-rings live do die from bites (and from eating them) yearly.

[Twisted]

So not overly aggressive, more or less like keeping a lion fish, but to an extreme degree.

[Animal Mother]

Well, sort of. Lions are much easier to keep an eye on, where as an octopus is going to pop in and out of holes and hide in really hard to find places, and reach out and grab you if curious.

[Gonodactylus]

Like many things that are dangerous, the major risk is becoming complacent and getting careless. When all the proper precautions are taken - use only gloves and nets, never put your hand in the tank unless you know exactly where the animal is and have it in sight, never allow access to the animals to someone who is not trained in how to deal with them, etc. - the risk is low. Still, I have had some close calls partly because I did take short cuts, was careless and occasionally because the animals are not predictable. Her are my top three "mistakes". Perhaps they will give you some insight into the risk.

1. I was moving a blue-ring from one tank to another. I tried to get it into the net near the water line. The animal suddenly climb up the wall, out of the water and started to crawl over the edge of the aquarium. My first impulse was to use my hand and push it back into the aquarium. This is what I would do with any other octopus trying to escape. I actually touched it with my finger before I realized what I was doing.

2. We keep many of our blue-rings in large plastic jars drilled with hundreds of 1/16" holes and submerged in 100 gal. tanks. The jars have coral rubble of pvc fittings in the bottom to make them sink and to provide refuges for the animals. The blue-rings usually sit on the side of the wall, but occasionally go into the refuge. I was cleaning out shrimp remains from a jar and checked quickly to see if the animal was in the rubble. I thought I saw an arm (turned out to be a piece of shrimp cuticle) removed the jar from the water and unscrewed the lid. Much to my surprise, when I removed the lid, the blue ring was in the lid and started for my hand. Fortunately, all I had to do was drop the lid and octopus.

3. We feed our animals fresh grass shrimp and usually use a feeding stick. We have long feeding sticks for use in large tanks and short, 8 inch ones for small observation tanks. Typically the blue-ring will grab the shrimp, but as they become used to being fed, they often associate the stick with food and grab it. They are so strong that we usually just let them have it until they eat and drop it. I was feeding a large male with a short stick and rather than reach for the shrimp on the end of the stick as they always do, this one swam for my fingers holding the other end of the stick. A couple of arms attached to my finger but I was able to quickly shake it off.

These were all cases where I was lax and became careless. Would I have died if bitten? Probably not. We do follow the rule that no one works with blue-rings unless there is someone else in the lab who knows rescue breathing and we all know to call 911 if there is any possibility that someone was envenomated. Also, the local emergency responders and ER's have been informed that blue-rings possess TTX. There are also signs on every door leading into the lab and on every tank contaning a blue-ring warning of the danger and directing a person what to do if bitten.

Still, if you have these animals you must take the danger seriously and most important, keep people who don't know the risk away from them.

Roy

[Twisted]

Yeah, in my home a blue ring would be a completly stupid irresponsible pet to have then.
I wish dwarves were not nocturnal. I don't have the means for setting up a large tank right now, but a 40 gallon breeder, or another 55 gallon isn't out of the question.

[Animal Mother]

55 gallons is all you need for most of the commonly sold octos. Just avoid vulgaris and probably briareus. They both grow significantly larger than others.

[Twisted]

I thought the bimac was just as big....My problem is most of the time I actually consider it, I look at the stock list at it will say Octopus-carrabian, Octopus - Atlantic, Or even Octopus -assorted...

[Animal Mother]

Most collectors don't know anything about the different species and you're lucky to even get a confirmation of where the octopus came from, which can narrow down the kind of species you would get. To them it's all about the paycheck and "an octopus is an octopus".

Bimacs are fine in a 50-55 gallon, but their life is shortened in warmer tanks, so a chiller is ideal for them. It is very rare to find Bimacs for sell as they aren't legal to collect for sell by California state law. However their babies are, so if someone captures a gravid female and raises her young, the babies are fair game for the market. You may find captive raised or tank bred baby Bimacs occasionally. www.marinedepotlive.com lists them on their site along with 3 other kind or at least 3 other locations they receive octos from.

The Caribbean species is usually O. briareus, sometimes O. vulgaris, but could also be dwarf O. mercatoris or joubini, OR O. filosus/hummelinki. Filosus are very fun pets (day active, interactive) and can be kept in smaller tanks. www. saltwaterfish.com is a good source for them. Their octos always come from Haiti, and so it's a pretty good bet that it will be O. filosus.
Pacific or Indo-Pacific is usually A. aculeatus, and they are typically diurnal and interactive. However there are also other octos that occasionally come from these areas like O. luteus which is strictly nocturnal. www.liveaquaria.com typically supplies A. aculeatus as their Indo-Pacific 'pus, and www.marinedeptolive.com also receives them. I don't know what Caribbean species LiveAquaria gets, but considering the tank size they recommend for it, likely O. vulgaris or briareus.
Atlantic would most likely be O. vulgaris, although they are quite common just about everywhere tropical/sub-tropical. Hence the name vulgaris which means "common". Don't let that label at the LFS fool you though... "Common Octopus/Common brown Octopus"
Really annoying.

Keep in mind all of these are just based on the most commonly collected species coming in from these areas and not a guarantee. I saw an O. macropus on Ebay, and it is Caribbean, and also grows as large as O. vulgaris, but is strictly nocturnal. Also, while I'm ranting, avoid "Zebra", Mimic, and Wunderpus. They are WAY overpriced because they are very rare, and being very rare, really shouldn't be collected and exploited until more is known about their wild populations, if ever.

Pretty much the best thing you can do if you're serious about keeping an octoups is set up your tank and wait until you find a good source that won't try to BS you about the particular species they provide. It's a guessing game at first, but once you're familiar with the suppliers you get a feel for who has what. A picture of the specimen available is always helpful if they can supply you with one. If you check out TONMO.com you'll find a list of octos in the Octopus Care section of the forums, and the list contains what kind of octopus and who it was purchased from. This can give you an idea of what kind of octopus you would get from which supplier.

[Twisted]

That is a lot of wonderful information Animal Mother. Thank you.

I have thought about getting one for about a year now, the only thing that has really held me back to date is the short life spans.

I think I will debate it a bit more, and read up some more. Thanks again

[Animal Mother]

Glad to know all that finger tapping isn't pointless. :)

I researched for about 2 years before I got one, and I'm still learning more and more with my 4th octopus.

They are very fun and rewarding when you find an healthy one. No fish can reach out and touch you. But yes, heart break is inevitable.

[richofoz]

Animal mother you seem to be quite well informed on the subject however I find the "smart huh?" comment referring to us swimming in "their" habitat a little ignorant.
You may want to have a look at the distribution of Blue rings around Aus. Or even take in to account, the various stonefish, coneshells, stinging jelly fish, sea snakes, stargazers, bull /tiger / great white sharks, SW crocs and yes, even stingrays before making such comments... (Should we not swim / surf at all?!)

Dangerous / venomous creatures inhabit every part of this continent. It's due to this fact Aussies (from a very young age) are educated in a way that fosters understanding and respect for these animals rather than irrational fear.

Do the divers that collect our coral from the oceans fall in to the "Smart huh?" category too, for diving in water where there may be sharks?
Everything in life comes down to an assessed risk, and when you understand these animals the risk is greatly reduced.

Please don't take this understanding as stupidity.

Sorry for my rant, but I had to get that out!

Rich.

[Animal Mother]

You're right. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to generalize that people who swim in those areas are plain stupid. I just find that death isn't a risk I'm willing to take in the name of good times, doesn't seem wise to me. I'd probably be more afraid of those tiny jellies than a blue-ring actually.

[Thales]

It seems more like shark attack syndrome to me. Sure there is a risk, but isn't the risk bigger riding in a car?

[aquaholic85]

Sorry don't mean to be harsh and cruel or anything...but this thread was posted by someone who 'supposedly' go bit...any one know how he/she are doing??

I'm also sure Animalmother ment no harm in her post.. Don't take offense on what she said..sure ya Aussies may be educated on the dangers but careless mistakes do happen... Think about it this way...everyone is informed on dangerous drugs but ppl. still do them.

Well i am noone to give advice on Octo's themselves..so lets just keep salwater creatures in the salt water and keep humans enjoying there beauty

[Animal Mother]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12115223#post12115223 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquaholic85
Sorry don't mean to be harsh and cruel or anything...but this thread was posted by someone who 'supposedly' go bit...any one know how he/she are doing??

I'm also sure Animalmother ment no harm in her post.. Don't take offense on what she said..sure ya Aussies may be educated on the dangers but careless mistakes do happen... Think about it this way...everyone is informed on dangerous drugs but ppl. still do them.

Well i am noone to give advice on Octo's themselves..so lets just keep salwater creatures in the salt water and keep humans enjoying there beauty

The person in question never responded back. No telling if it was a serious post or just a troll trying to get a rise, but it brought up some good points anyway.

Thanks for backing me up, but that person is right. I should keep my personal opinions to myself. And for the record, I'm a "he". (you'd have to watch Full Metal Jacket) :D

A better example would be Steve Irwin. The man was very knowledgeable about venomous animals, especially Australian animals. Yet he made a careless mistake and the world, not to mention his family, lost a great person.

[Animal Mother]

bah double post!

[Aj Flip]

umm he hasnt posted yet.............

i would kill th octopus if it bit me, just put it in the microwave before leaving for the hospital

[Tu Ku]

This is a troll of a thread if I've ever been dooped into reading one. I almost wish that there was a Moronic Thread Starter of the Month article. This guy would easily take the cake. Seriously, who tries to convince readers that they've substituted ReefCentral for 911? (No offense to RC of course)

[JeremyNicholson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11817350#post11817350 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by waif
Bite it back?

Aw, man.

What a troll thread. Tu Ku is right, who substitutes RC for emergency help?

[mhurley]

Closed