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View Full Version : Anyone QT with copper or other medication?


davew0670
02/14/2008, 09:50 AM
Ive been to a few lfs who keep copper in their qt at all times. They go straight to copper QT's whan they come in. Is this a normal practice? Does anyone here do that or use any other medications even though a fish shows no sign of being infected with something? Seems like about 90% of fish bring in something with them. Just look at "fish is sick of _____" threads.

Gwynhidwy
02/14/2008, 11:28 AM
Most people that I know do treat every fish in QT, usually with hyposalinity.

Personally, I use Cupramine as I haven't had good look with hyposalinity. I don't treat right away though. I wait until they are eating well and I don't treat fish that appear healthy. Though to be perfectly honest, I haven't had very many fish that didn't have something when they came in that I needed to treat.

weaselslucks
02/14/2008, 01:42 PM
copper can harm sensitive fish such as powder blue tangs and IMO should only be a las resort

davew0670
02/14/2008, 02:31 PM
so what about hyposalinity? Does hyposalinity really "cure" anything but ich?

Wolverine
02/14/2008, 02:44 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11848079#post11848079 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by davew0670
so what about hyposalinity? Does hyposalinity really "cure" anything but ich?

No, that's about all it's good for.

I personally don't like to treat in QT unless I see a reason to. Prophylactically treating increases cost, you have the risk of damage to the fish to treat them for a disease they might not have.

Dave

davew0670
02/14/2008, 02:59 PM
the reason I ask, I kept a flame angel in QT for 4 weeks with not a sign of trouble. He was also in a copper QT 2 weeks before I got him. 3 days or so after putting him in my display tank, the flame and 2 clowns broke out into ich. The clowns had been together for about 5 weeks with no problems. Figure the outbreak had to come from the angel. Very irritating to be so careful only to have this happen.

chrisstie
02/14/2008, 03:11 PM
There are many many different schools of thought on this one and I still don't think I've been able to form a good opinion of it yet (hopefully personally wont have to treat too many fish in my lifetime) but let me share my experience of treating a new shipment of fish at an LFS I've worked at.

The holding tanks are actually set up without copper. The thought in this is that copper based treatments, while indeed effective, are in many cases unnecessary. Just as humans can have trouble from heavy metal poisoning, animals can too. Anecdotal evidence shows potential for liver damage and other troubles down the road from exposure that wouldn't be there otherwise. The holding tanks also run UV and ozone. The UV rays are of a certain frequency of light that they smash through many harmful bacterias and ozone that is pumped into but exists only for a short time in water also zaps any harmful things.

When a shipment of fish come in further treatment is done based on the fish. For fish that commonly have issues like wild caught tangs, wrasses, clowns etc a 30 second-1min freshwater dip in pH adjusted RO water with formalin and methyl blue is done. The container with this solution is also oxygenated with an air bubbler and a heater is provided to match the destination tank temps. All fish were previously floated and adjusted to this temperature before the debagging process begins. This freshwater dip commonly peels off external parasites like flukes. They look like little potato chips that peel off the fish that are white to opaque\clear. These buggers will eat up a fish in no time. You don't see it often on fish treated in copper either as it tends to also kill them off. Interestingly, for freshwater fish that are wild caught with flukes, a saltwater bath is how you get rid of them. The change in the osmotic pressure really does a number on them.


Next the same fish go into a saltwater mixture also with formalin and methyl blue. This is a bath they will sit in for roughly 20-30 mins. Afterwards they are ready to go into the holding tanks. There are some fish like gobies, blennies, mandarins etc that aren't particular prone to flukes because of some species slime coats, lack of scales, etc and will primarily go through just the salt water dip as well as aquacultered species to reduce the stress of shipping and possible unnecessary fw dip. All fish are observed later and if another dip is needed it is done.

Now this is on a big scale for a shipment of a fish to a fish store, but, I do have to say working with these fish and comparing them to other stores online and in person I find them to be extremely healthy. They eat very quickly, become socialized and are less shy around people and respond very well to when multiple treatments are needed.

When I get a fish personally I follow a smaller model of the exact same thing. Ich to me is one of those things, though that I take with a grain of salt. Unless you QT every single living thing that goes into your tank like you are supposed to (which from the beginning being a newer reefer I did not do from the get go. In a larger tank set up I think I might) including inverts, corals, etc Ich will more than likely be in your tank. It can hitchhike in on things that are not fish, but compared to something more scary like internal parasites (which there are some good foods to give to get rid of these!) ich is very very manageable.

I find I have ich in my tank but no flare outs. Maybe once or twice when adding a new fish but the breakout is gone within about 2 days and I keep a close eye on my temperature and other factors to keep in under control. Someday if I set up a larger tank and want to make sure no ich goes into it or anything like that I think I will have a QT tank that my corals go through as well as do hyposalinity on the fish, depending on how well they take to a QT tank. Depending on the species sometimes stress is too much. I think it also depends on the diseases you are worried about too. Most parasitic, bacterial, etc show up very quickly on a newly bought fish just because of the stress. On fish I've had for over a year now I really am not worried about them suddenly getting anything weird (i'd qt newly bought ones to prevent cross contamination) but still, i've had good success with low stress environment and dormant ich

Like I said, there are *many* diffeerent schools of thought on this and you will have to find the best way that works for you, but just wanted to share some of the really cool things I have learned when it comes to taking care of a large volume of fish.

LargeAngels
02/15/2008, 07:53 AM
Not all copper medications are the same. Cupramine is much less toxic to the fish, but still extremely affective at killing ich and velvet.

As chrisstie mentioned there are many schools of thought and varies approaches. After years in this hobby this is the approach I have come to. Acclimate fish to QT water (temp, pH, etc.) half dose of Cupramine and then a full dose of Prazipro (for flukes, as many flukes are not affected by copper.) Second day add the 2nd dose of Cupramine. Continue to monitor copper level for 4-6 weeks. When I get clowns like tricinctus, caps or chrysopterus I also treat with Maracyn II for 5 days, then do a 50% water change and add more copper. I've treated tangs angels (large and dwarf), fairy wrasses, leopard wrasse, clowns, gobies, etc. with no ill affect. I've had a much better survival rate with this approach than any other in the past.

davew0670
02/15/2008, 08:20 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11853593#post11853593 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LargeAngels
Not all copper medications are the same. Cupramine is much less toxic to the fish, but still extremely affective at killing ich and velvet.

As chrisstie mentioned there are many schools of thought and varies approaches. After years in this hobby this is the approach I have come to. Acclimate fish to QT water (temp, pH, etc.) half dose of Cupramine and then a full dose of Prazipro (for flukes, as many flukes are not affected by copper.) Second day add the 2nd dose of Cupramine. Continue to monitor copper level for 4-6 weeks. When I get clowns like tricinctus, caps or chrysopterus I also treat with Maracyn II for 5 days, then do a 50% water change and add more copper. I've treated tangs angels (large and dwarf), fairy wrasses, leopard wrasse, clowns, gobies, etc. with no ill affect. I've had a much better survival rate with this approach than any other in the past.


Is this the approach you take regardless to any fish you get? Even if shows signs of being healthy?

LargeAngels
02/15/2008, 08:40 AM
Yes. It is the approach I take regardless of if it looks healthy or not. Looking healthy does not mean it is not carrying parasites.

davew0670
02/15/2008, 08:47 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11853839#post11853839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LargeAngels
Yes. It is the approach I take regardless of if it looks healthy or not. Looking healthy does not mean it is not carrying parasites.

I agree with you. IMO I dont think there is such a thing as buying a fish that is 100% healthy.

Wolverine
02/15/2008, 08:59 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11853839#post11853839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LargeAngels
Yes. It is the approach I take regardless of if it looks healthy or not. Looking healthy does not mean it is not carrying parasites.

Absolutely. That is why I like a long QT time; if the disease manifests itself, then I treat. Even though cupramine is safer, it can still cause problems.

Dave

LargeAngels
02/15/2008, 09:01 AM
Wolverine: What types of problems have you experienced from exposure to Cupramine and what types of fish?

Wolverine
02/15/2008, 09:06 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11853965#post11853965 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LargeAngels
Wolverine: What types of problems have you experienced from exposure to Cupramine and what types of fish?

To be honest, I'd have to look back at my logbook when I get home. I haven't used copper in 8 or 9 years, so I don't remember off the top of my head.

Dave

davew0670
02/15/2008, 09:26 AM
I have a clown that has been in copper treatment for 5 days now. He is completely clear of any visable parasites now. Im shceduled to do a water change today. Should I keep the copper treatment going or start bringing it down? I will use other forms of treament in the future but this was an emergency.

LargeAngels
02/15/2008, 09:49 AM
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/C_irritansLifeCycle.gif

davew0670
02/15/2008, 10:02 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11854281#post11854281 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LargeAngels
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/C_irritansLifeCycle.gif


I thought that chart for was for ich to die off in an untreated situation. Copper doesnt kill all stages of ich?

LargeAngels
02/15/2008, 10:12 AM
"Treatment for of amyloodiniosis

Chemotherapy is the only effective treatment for Amyloodinium, with copper being the most widely used. Copper will not affect trophonts or tomonts but is toxic to the dinospores (Noga and Levy, 1995). Free copper should be kept at 0.12-0.15 mg/L for at least 14 days, although 21 days is better to be certain of killing all dinospores and to ensure that all trophonts have become tomonts and all tomonts have excysted"

davew0670
02/15/2008, 10:22 AM
Is any other stage other than trophont visible to the eye? MY DT has been fish free for 5 days. I just noticed some very small creatures moving around on the glass. smaller than a pinhead.

chrisstie
02/15/2008, 10:23 AM
Oh Prazipro is also great for other parasites as well, I hadn't even remmebered the name of it. Regular dosings of that into the holding tanks were done as well - cleaning the tanks the next day was really crazy seeing some of the things in the fish waste and what not.

John Dawe
02/15/2008, 09:46 PM
This is what I do: 1) when fish arrive, place in bucket and give a 45 minute formulin bath. The place in a small tank 10 - 15 gallons (makes it easier to dose the meds) and lower the salinity to 1.09 to 1.15 over several days. For the first 3 - 4 days add metronidazole, full dose each day, I do a 90% water change each day, since the QT tank does not have a biofilter or has a small piece of cellpore from another tank.
After 3 to 4 days stop the metronidazole, give a formulin bath again and start prazipro for 5 days. Then, move the fish up to 29 g and add a biofilter (cellpore from another tank). Keep at low salinity for a total of at least 3 weeks then gradually raise it up over several days. There is always a seachem ammonia alert on the tank so I do not have to test the water for ammonia, may have to change it twice a day in the smaller tank.
As far as feeding, feed the fish a little bit several times a day (3-6 times) or every time you check on it.