halides under-performing?

[renisel]

I have a 75 reef with 2X250W XM10K bulbs. I have no chiller and the room it's in isn't particularly cold. However, my temperature maxes out at about 80 degrees, even after the halides have been on for 10 hours. On one hand, this allows me to keep the tank at 79-80 at all times without having to use a chiller. On the other hand, I'm wondering if the lack of heat generation is an indication that my lights are under-performing. It could also be that my 40 gal sump/fuge counter-balances the heating effect somewhat by allowing about 1/3 of the water to be away from the lights at all times.

Regardless, the fixture is only about 6-8" above the water surface, so I was really expecting a lot more heat generation when I added the lights a few months back. Should I be seeing more heat build-up if the lights are actually putting out the intensity they're supposed to?

[OranguTang]

I have a 400w over my 60 cube and my tank also maxes out at 80 all day long. I have two fans however...

What ballast?

[DarG]

Is it a fixture? Which one?
Seperate pendants? DE or SE type bulbs? Ballast brand and type (electronic, magnetic) ?

[renisel]

It's a Finnex fixture with remote magnetic ballasts. Bulbs are DE.

[tankman10000]

i would be happy with that tempeture

[renisel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11891449#post11891449 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tankman10000
i would be happy with that tempeture
If my lights are actually putting out at a level of intensity that they're supposed to, I'd be very happy with the current setup. My temp generally only fluctuates a degree or two at the most over the course of the day. I'm just concerned that the lack of temperature rise with the lights on might be due to the lights not giving off the intensity they're supposed to.

[DarG]

If the ballasts are M80's / HQI magnetic then there is a real good chance that they are working as they should. Im basing this on you saying ballasts as in plural, two ballasts. If both lamps appear to have about the same output, chances are you are getting the output that you should and the reasonable temperature is a blessing. Your lamps are probably running at about 320 watts each again assuming that the ballasts are HQI magnetic (ANSI M80).

[renisel]

Thanks. I actually hooked up a "Kill-A-Watt" (plug-in device for measuring current, wattage, etc.) the other day and they were both drawing just over 250W (maybe 255-260, if I remember correctly). From what you're saying, am I correct in understanding that a magnetic ballast for a 250W bulb typically draws 300W or so, delivering 250 to the lamp and dissipating the rest as heat and noise? If so, would my 250W reading indicate that my lamps probably aren't receiving the power that they should?

[renisel]

I checked the wattage again last night and apparently it's more like 275. Does this sound like an appropriate amount of power for the magnetic ballast on a 250W HQI to be drawing?

[controlguy]

In regards to how your tank temperature is staying stable, you are forgetting two big variables in the equation:

1. House Temp
2. Outside Air Temp.

They certainly will affect your tank.

[fittiger]

Also, if you are not running these halides under a canopy, the heat is not trapped and thus increase as much over time, and won't heat the aquarium as much.

Depending on your location, be sure to watch the tank temperature during the summer months.

[DarG]

I'm saying that an HQI magnetic ballast typically runs DE lamps over 300 watts. You should check to see if there is anything that says M80 on the ballast. The DE xm 10K 250 watt lamps were measured at about 320 watts on a PFO M80 ballast. This should be very close to the same on any M80 ballast. If they are on electronic ballasts then 250 watts or close is typical. A standard pulse start ballast may be a little higher than 250. But they should be near 320 watts on the M80 which is a magnetic HQI ballast and the ballast that is meant to run 250 watt DE bulbs. You may very well have standard pulse start ballasts which are ANSI M138 in which case the 275 watts may be about right.

[renisel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11894031#post11894031 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by controlguy
In regards to how your tank temperature is staying stable, you are forgetting two big variables in the equation:

1. House Temp
2. Outside Air Temp.

They certainly will affect your tank.

Actually I said in the second sentence of the first post that the room isn't particularly cold...

[renisel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11894437#post11894437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarG
I'm saying that an HQI magnetic ballast typically runs DE lamps over 300 watts. You should check to see if there is anything that says M80 on the ballast. The DE xm 10K 250 watt lamps were measured at about 320 watts on a PFO M80 ballast. This should be very close to the same on any M80 ballast. If they are on electronic ballasts then 250 watts or close is typical. A standard pulse start ballast may be a little higher than 250. But they should be near 320 watts on the M80 which is a magnetic HQI ballast and the ballast that is meant to run 250 watt DE bulbs. You may very well have standard pulse start ballasts which are ANSI M138 in which case the 275 watts may be about right.

Thanks. The ballast housing doesn't have anything indicating what type it is, so I guess I'll just open it up and see if it says on the actual components inside. Otherwise, I guess I'll just email the manufaturer.

[controlguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11896005#post11896005 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by renisel
Actually I said in the second sentence of the first post that the room isn't particularly cold...

That may be what you said, but if your thinking you will not need a chiller, based on a room not being cold in February, then you are not taking into account what I had previously stated. On a 80 - 90 deg day your house will be warm, and so will your tank. "The room isnt particularily cold" will not hold true in July, and your runtime hours of any chiller in a cold climate in winter will be dramitically lower. The issue is not your lights and how much or little heat they are generating, the issue is you are in a heating mode within your home where the ambient air is ~68 deg. The ambient air in the summer will be 74 degrees if you are lucky. The humidity will not be 30 percent like it is today, it will be at least 50 percent. I am not trying to argue with you, but look at the whole situation not just half of it. Cause and Effect are what is going on here.

[renisel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11896230#post11896230 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by controlguy
That may be what you said, but if your thinking you will not need a chiller, based on a room not being cold in February, then you are not taking into account what I had previously stated. On a 80 - 90 deg day your house will be warm, and so will your tank. "The room isnt particularily cold" will not hold true in July, and your runtime hours of any chiller in a cold climate in winter will be dramitically lower. The issue is not your lights and how much or little heat they are generating, the issue is you are in a heating mode within your home where the ambient air is ~68 deg. The ambient air in the summer will be 74 degrees if you are lucky. The humidity will not be 30 percent like it is today, it will be at least 50 percent. I am not trying to argue with you, but look at the whole situation not just half of it. Cause and Effect are what is going on here.

I didn't mention it, but my air-conditioning system is extremely effective and the house stays pretty cool even on the hottest days of the summer. I had not, however, thought about the humidity factor. Fortunately I have a couple fans that I bought because I was expecting to have temperature issues; so I can always set those up if the temperature starts to rise too much as summer approaches.

[Paul_PSU]

I just went from a coralife 4 X 65w pc setup on my 75 gal and put in 2 X 250w DE MH in my canopy. I raised the lid up 3 inches and my lights are about 9-10" off of the water. I have an 18 gal sump also. I have no fans, yet and my temp is 75 with lights off and 78-80 with lights on.

Paul

[PaulErik]

Not all ballasts are created equally so it is difficult to compare just power draw. 275 watts is still within applicable specs for a double-ended 120-volt ballast.

The PFO HQI (ANSI M80 Advance Transformer) ballast Sanjay tested is a high reactance autotransformer (HX) ballast. It is a simple ballast consisting of a step up coil and a simple reactor/lag circuit ballast coil. This type of ballast has an excellent current crest factor, good efficiency and operates lamps the same way a European reactor/lag ballast does but has higher wattage losses due to the step up coil.

The magnetic ballasts used in a lot of double-ended light fixtures today use cheaper overseas ballasts designed for M80 double-ended lamps. These ballasts are generally constant wattage / lead circuit (CW) type. These operate a lamp quite differently, less efficiently and not so smoothly. ANSI and NEMA standards currently do not list any electrical standards for this type of ballast for 250-watt DE lamps.

Without doing extensive electrical testing on the ballast it will be difficult to know if a ballast under performs. Most likely the ballast is operating the lamps within limits.

[DarG]

Paulerik ... thanks for the insight, as always.

Do you happen to know if the Sunlight Supply Blue Wave HQI Magnetics (M80's) use the same transformer as the PFO? I believe that I read that they did use the same Advance transformer but I am not sure if that info was reliable.

If not, do you have any information on the Blue Wave HQI's? Pros' , Cons ?

Thanks

[PaulErik]

The magnetic ANSI M80 HQI ballasts from PFO and Sunlight use the same ANSI M80 Advance Transformer ballast. Hamilton Tech used them too and might still be using them. Advance a division of Philips Electronics is the only North American ballast company offering an 120-volt ANSI M80 spec magnetic ballast at this time.

[DarG]

Thanks Paulerik.

Couple more Q's if you dont mind,

I read that the HX ballast does not do a good job of maintaining wattage to the lamp with swings in line voltage. That a drop or increase in line voltage to the ballast is results in a wattage drop or increase at the lamp of more than 2 times the percentage of the line voltage drop or increase. So a drop in line voltage of 5% could result in a 10% or higher drop in wattage supplied to the lamp. Is this true and if so does it have any consequences to the lamp in terms of shorter longevity or anything else?

Also, is the Advance HX type ballast the same type as the true European HQI Magnetic ballasts? In other words, are these PFO and SS Blue Wave HQI ballasts considered true HQI ballasts by european standards?

Thanks.

[PaulErik]

The voltage/wattage regulation varies by ballast design and type. Typically for reactor (single coil) and high reactance (Two coil) ballasts the input voltage should be within 5%. The lamp will be driven at a difference of approximately 10% if input voltage is 5% from nominal. Manufacturers state that going more than 5% will decrease lamp life and performance. This is the only down side to these types of ballasts. Manufacturers studies have shown these ballasts to maintain light output better than any other circuit as long as the input voltage is kept approximately within 5% (114min-126max volts for a 120 volt ballast). The next best is a regulated lag ballast circuit and these keep very good regulation but use so much more material to manufacture so cost is much higher.

With CW type ballasts the regulation is better but for the price of lamp performance over time. The capacitor in the circuit is used along with the ballast to regulate the lamp and this distorts the power. The current crest factor is usually near at or the maximum design limit for lamps.

The Advance M80 ballast is really just a step up transformer and a true European HQI ballast in one unit but designed for 60Hz operation. The only difference with a European HQI and the Advance M80 is the ignitors starting voltage pulse height. The Advance has a slightly higher voltage because ANSI M80 spec calls for it.

[DarG]

Ok, I got it. ...

... So would it make sense to use a line conditioner with voltage regulation and plug the ballast into that? Assuming of course the unit was rated accodingly to handle the current draw of the ballast. Or are the affordable conditioners/voltage regs. like the Tripp Lite units a waste of money.

Great info PaulErik, thanks very much.

[PaulErik]

In most applications the voltage should not be a problem if everything is loaded properly. Regulators and regulating lag ballasts are usually used for industrial applications where large voltage drops occur from large motors and wide voltage variations are common.

[DarG]

Good info, I learned more than usual in this thread. Thanks again PaulErik.

sorry for hi-jacking your thread, renisel. Lots of good info for everyone from PaulErik (as usual) so I dont feel too guilty :)

[djfrankie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11902683#post11902683 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarG
Good info, I learned more than usual in this thread. Thanks again PaulErik.

sorry for hi-jacking your thread, renisel. Lots of good info for everyone from PaulErik (as usual) so I dont feel too guilty :)

Great info there guys,

Thanks,
djfrankie