Grounding Probe or not?

[mixed_reefer]

I know for sure that when i stick my hand in the aquarium and i have a small cut on a finger i feel electricity, if im barefoot standing on the floor. With rubber shoes on it does not happen and only when there is a cut in my skin. Should i be using a grounding probe?

[psteeleb]

find the short first and fix it

I am a strong believer in the grounding probe. there is another active post on the subject that had several discussions on it today

[mixed_reefer]

I have searched and searched. I honestly cant find it and i know that sounds stupid. Im starting to think there has to be saltcreep on a sumplight or something im not seeing. I also cant find the discussion on probes... Can you link me?

[RonD]

check your heaters.. they can function but be cracked and shock you. I just punted all my glass ones for titanium. I have a probe but think that if something was wrong I could miss it because of the prbe masking the problem.

[mixed_reefer]

Im am concerned for my animals health in this scenario. I dont understand electricity like i probably should, i am reading but some of gets confusing. I know some current leaks into my tank, but i dont know where. Its not like it knocks me down, just a tingle if i have a cut and im barefoot. From reading im causing a ground and thats why i feel it. but what about when my hand is not in the tank? Does it affect my fish and corals even though they are sitting in a ungrounded tank? Or is it only once the ground is made that it causes stress.
I have unplugged all 13 pumps and 3 heaters, it still happens. I cant feel it all the time, i only notice it when im cut on my fingers.

[silverwolf72]

Use a ground probe with a GFCI if there is any current leaking into your tank it will trip the GFCI.

[samtheman]

The GFCI does not need or utilize a ground probe to trip so its presence is not necessary. Use a GFCI and forget about the ground probe. There is no data suggesting it will help the health of your fish, and a good possibility it will be a hazzard to your safety.

[Roy G. Biv]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11980730#post11980730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
I have searched and searched. I honestly cant find it and i know that sounds stupid. Im starting to think there has to be saltcreep on a sumplight or something im not seeing. I also cant find the discussion on probes... Can you link me?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1333128

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The GFCI does not need or utilize a ground probe to trip so its presence is not necessary. Use a GFCI and forget about the ground probe. There is no data suggesting it will help the health of your fish, and a good possibility it will be a hazzard to your safety.

I strongly disagree.

With a ground probe and a GFCI, there is a path to ground, so any exposed electrical wires will leak some current into the water and out the ground probe, triggering the GFCI.

Without a ground probe and with a GFCI, there is often no path to ground, so the GFCI will not trip until there is a path to ground.

The first thing to provide that path may be your body. I do not want to test the expectation that the GFCI will trip in time to protect me. I'd rather it trip as soon as there is the potential for a problem of that sort, and a ground probe allows that.

Further, if there are exposed wires in the water (like a broken heater or powerhead), they may release copper or heavy metals and not actually trip a GFCI since there is no path to ground. With a ground probe, such an event trips a GFCI immediately, alerting you to the problem earlier than if you had no such probe.


[B]and a good possibility it will be a hazzard to your safety.[?B]

What scenario involving both a ground probe and a GFCI endangers your safety relative to a GFCI alone?

[mixed_reefer]

Im just worried about my animals... I am reading more on this and i see people saying there will be a bit of current in most tanks. Sounds like no one really knows if the current is a bad thing or not as far as animal health goes. I read where they had run wires into the ocean connected to re-bar type dome structures and turned on the juice. They were mounting acro colonies to the re-bar in an attempt to regrow the reef, something about the new corals will grow on the re-bar due to the electrical charge attracting the corals spawn somehow. My point is, how is that much different from having some current in your tank? Obviously its grounded where as without a probe, my tank is not. I also recently got a Yellow Tang and after seeing HLLE pics i bought all the selcon and vitachem and alge, and they get new life spectrum once daily already plus i feed frozen krill, plankton, cyclops, squid, marine cuisine .... you get the point. Now that i have the tang, im sweating the current because of HLLE and the possibility of it being a factor. I will be completely honest, i have been leaking this current for some time, i only feel it if i have a cut and im wondering what if anything i need to do about it now that the tang is in there. The tank houses a lot of fish and sps corals and has been running for about a year now.

[dragonladylea]

Thank you Randy for pointing that out, I was just about to say it (in not such fluent terms) I had my husband thank God put a grounding probe in and a GFCI three days before my son called me to say "Mom, I think I blew a fuse - I knocked your light in the tank" even though he knows NOT to do it, he said it was really just reflex to grab the light out of the tank. I truely credit my sons life with the grounding probe and GFCI. For about $15-$20 why take chances when you don't have to.

[mixed_reefer]

I knocked a light into my sump and just like your son i reached in to grab it. It put me on the floor confused. I agree in that situation i really would have been better off. I guess there is really only one way to set my mind at ease over this small very tiny charge that seems to be in my aquarium. Get the gfci and probe and if its tripping then ill hunt down the cause and replace it. My worry is im going to get the probe and gfci and its going to trip lol then im stuck hunting down equipment that im going to have to replace if i have the money to do so or not... but if ya cant sleep cause that cute little tangs head might be rotting, what else are you going to do.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Im just worried about my animals... I am reading more on this and i see people saying there will be a bit of current in most tanks. Sounds like no one really knows if the current is a bad thing or not as far as animal health goes.

FWIW, I agree. I have no idea whether grounding probes help the health of animals in the tank aside from emergency situations (like a broken heater).

[psteeleb]

look at it this way

there are several people that have had experience with HLLE (including myself) that say the grounding probe helps. I have not heard of one case that is backed up with anything more then speculation that says it hurts the fish

Again I'll say

first off - if you have stray voltage, find the source and fix it. Turn everything off and use a process of elimination, including cords.

second; GFI and ground probe, I don't know where people are coming from thinking GFCI works without the probe - the GFI senses a ground and interrupt the circuit. Yes, it works when it grounds through you, I don't want to experience that again. I use GFCI and ground probes for my protection and the protection of my family and friends then equipment etc. No argument or discussion on this, or the first point.

third - it is my personal experience that with rotating equipment in the tank you get some generation of micro currents and the ground probe seems to help here. My short experience with HLLE started with the introduction of pumps inside the tank and ended with the introduction of a ground probe. Stray voltage was never felt or detected. This is the point that is argued but it seems there is some proof (maybe coincidence) that it helps and only speculation that it hurts.

[mixed_reefer]

I just spent the last hour and twenty mins unplugging everything one by one, seems like no matter what i am still getting shocked if i touch the bare concrete floor with my bare feet and stick a hangnail in first.
If i stand on the covered floor i dont get any buzz at all with bare feet and a hangnail in first. If i stick another finger in first, then the hangnail finger, no buzz. Im extremely confused. I guess with a probe and gfci i will be able to pinpoint what equipment is bad. Right now if ya asked me i would say it is all junk. I must have more than one piece bad is all i can figure.

[psteeleb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11982195#post11982195 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
I just spent the last hour and twenty mins unplugging everything one by one, seems like no matter what i am still getting shocked if i touch the bare concrete floor with my bare feet and stick a hangnail in first.
If i stand on the covered floor i dont get any buzz at all with bare feet and a hangnail in first. If i stick another finger in first, then the hangnail finger, no buzz. Im extremely confused. I guess with a probe and gfci i will be able to pinpoint what equipment is bad. Right now if ya asked me i would say it is all junk. I must have more than one piece bad is all i can figure.

sounds like your doing it backwards

unplug everything first - validate the stray voltage is gone, if not this is where you could have salt creep to an extension cord or something and you will need to chasse that down

when everything is unplugged and there is no stray voltage - then start plugging stuff back in

the short does not have to be directly to an item, salt creep can go up plastic and touch a metal light frame or something that also has some salt creep in the socket - so it can be from tank to salt creep to frame to a socket, extension cord, etc.

[mixed_reefer]

Will the gfci trip if the product is bad if i have a ground probe? What amp gfci is suggested? I have went through the wiring several times, before i just did it again. Im telling you i must have more than one device with an issue because no single device being unplugged stops the shock. I cant find it, its not that im silly or not listening. If i unplug the whole shabang im not going to get shocked, regardless of saltcreep because there will be no juice to the tank at all. I need a surefire way to go through each device and test it one by one, the tingle is so minimal at times i cant even tell if im getting zapped or not. How can i test them one by one?


I am going to pull the plug on the whole system right now, just to verify that my OCRD is not getting the better of me.

[mixed_reefer]

No current with the system completely unplugged. I have such a wiring mess, this is going to be a major pain but i guess its a well overdue project. Something is zapping me, i think its a combination of things but i need a way to be sure, something other than sticking my finger in the water with a cut on it. Any suggestions?

[psteeleb]

sounds like you probably do have more then one source. but taking it up from zero to all on works better to find them.

another hard one to locate is if you have a power strip mounted to wood. The wood could have salt creep that is creating a minimal circuit between tht tank and the power strip.

I want to add to my other statement as there are some people that have claimed that ground probes made their fish go nuts when a heater turned on etc. In these cases there is a short, and stray voltage in the system that flows to ground when turned on. These should always be watched for and fixed. Ignoring the problem of a short and thinking just because it's contained in the tank (with out a ground probe) is just asking for more problems IMO.

[psteeleb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11982343#post11982343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
No current with the system completely unplugged. I have such a wiring mess, this is going to be a major pain but i guess its a well overdue project. Something is zapping me, i think its a combination of things but i need a way to be sure, something other than sticking my finger in the water with a cut on it. Any suggestions?

do you have access to one of those small (radio shack type) volt oms meters?

[mixed_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11982364#post11982364 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psteeleb
sounds like you probably do have more then one source. but taking it up from zero to all on works better to find them.


I understand what you are saying 100% and i agree with you whole heartedly. If you saw my jumbled wiring mess you would understand why it is not so easy. The system consists of 3 tanks, the dt, sump and fuge. All three tanks have lighting and pumps in them for returns, reactor, powerheads, skimmer and so on but not all the cords reach to one outlet so i had to run extension cords to power strips and thats where all hell broke loose. I ran heavy gauge ext cords to the strips in the locals that i need them. There is only one section where i can touch the concrete floor while sticking my finger in the tank and its not close to any plugs. So since i cant feel the current unless im touching the concrete with my foot and sticking my finger in the tank(actually the fuge) So i have to unplug whatever it is im trying to test if i can even find wich plug it is and then walk to the fuge area, stick a toe on the concrete and jam a finger in the fuge. Then half the time i cant tell if im getting zapped or not. Im starting to wonder about my powerheads and wavemaker. That would explain why it seems more noticeable at times if its a powerhead or two on the wavemaker causing the problem.

See what i mean, i got a mess and it stinks to say the least.

[mixed_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11982376#post11982376 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psteeleb
do you have access to one of those small (radio shack type) volt oms meters?

Yes, but i dont know how to use it really. What setting would i need and where would i place its probes and what will i look for? Im sorry for all the questions, electricity is not my strong point obviously.

[psteeleb]

I feel for you - been there a couple times and its a real pain multiplied byt the complexity of your system setup. As long as your taking cordsd off etc. I'd wipe them down and try to get even the least amount of salt crrep or other crud off them

The hardest ones to find is when you have a couple items that when by isolated are not enough to detect manually using the ouch method - not a good method anyway. But add two or three of these and they become detectable

If you can get to a volt oms meter and set it low you can detect them indivually. Good luck - I'm sure this is exacly how you planned on spending Saturday.

[pherbert]

I'll quickly add my testimonial to the list. I bought a ground probe because I'd read a few things and it "seemed like a good idea." A month or so later I managed to not notice that I'd broken my glass heater in the sump while cleaning. That is, until I tried plugging everthing back in and the GFI kicked off.

Like a dummy, my process of elimination had me plugging in the grounding probe last, at which point the GFI went again. Try again. At some point in all this I wound up with a big jolt when I stuck my hand in the water to physically inspect the heater. Not enough to knock me on my a** but having been shocked before it was a *very* significant one.

NOTE THIS!!! Without the grounding probe plugged in, the GFI did not kick off. As soon as I plugged in the probe - off. Heaters for some reason do not have a grounding plug. I'm not an electrician or a triple E, so I'm sure there is a good reason for this. But the SHOCKING truth is, I would NEVER operate a tank that was not on a WORKING GFI with a grounding probe again.

[mixed_reefer]

I bought the GFCI uptown today and i will order the ground probe monday.

Can anyone explain to me how to use the ohm meter to check my equipment piece by piece.

What setting would i need? I know they have ohms, and i believe volts and one or two others.
Where would i place its probes to test equipment? Do i keep the device im trying to check in the water and put the red and black probe on the meter into the tank or how do i go about this?

[psteeleb]

oms reads resistance - you could do it this way but it would be difficult

set it to a low voltage. the black probe needs to be grounded and the red probe put in the water. you should get a reading (or a jump on tge meter) when there is curent running into the water from a source

the device may have several settings - try it on a low one and if it spikes you know you have something. if you had a lot of current you wuld have been shocked more then you described

if you dont get a reading check your connections and make sure you have it grounded

hope that helps and sorry I didnt catch it earlier

[mixed_reefer]

It does help, Thank You.
I just stuck my finger in there again after not touching it all day long (barefoot and grounded) and i got zapped alot stronger then it was before. Only difference is my lights on the tank are ON and my sump lights were OFF just now and last night the sump was on and the tank was off.

After that ouch test i just did im thinking my problem might be pretty harmfulll to my tank critters. Everone eats and the acros have decent color but they dont seem to grow as fast as they should. Like i see ppl say i got this 1/2 inc frag in 6/07 and here it is on 2/08 and just look at the growth! my stuff dont do that lately, everything stony is real slow growin and the parameters great all the time... maybe its just an observation i want to connect to the current in my tank...
I cant believe my poor animals are in there getting roached and there is not much i can do until mid week. I cant find the source for the life of me and im thinking i have more than one source or possible salt creep causing it cause ive been through the plugs time and time again. This should be interesting to figure out but i will absolutely report back to this thread with my findings.
I know now that i have a serious issue even if it has not made the tang bust out in HLLE or lit up my tank with a spark show.
You all have been a great help, Thank you

[Roy G. Biv]

Do you by any chance have these plugged into an older outlet with only 2 prongs?

[mixed_reefer]

No sir, i checked the outlet before i set up my tank there with one of those three pronged testers with the lights on it. I seen one pictured in the thread you linked me too earlier. It told me it was wired up correctly and it had ground. Not all of my house is grounded, its very old but the basement was finished right before we moved in and i guess they had to meet code because anything that they put in at that time is grounded. I actually did my best to ground the circuit my computer was going to have to be on. I ran a pipe about 4 foot into the ground and ran me a copper lead all the way to the socket that i needed. My computer was shocking me much the same as my tank is before i grounded it. But i know that outlet is grounded according to the tree pronged tester, i tested the whole house and like i said its not all grounded but that one is.

[mixed_reefer]

Just for kicks i grounded myself and stuck my finger into my biocube and there was no tingle. The biocube IS on an ungrounded outlet im pretty sure. While testing the cube or the tank with the finger test im standing in the same exact spot.

[mixed_reefer]

Well i believe i realize the err of my ways. I now understand after talking with my secret mastermind reefer friend whom i have tons of respect for, that even though my lights dont touch the tank at all in any way, they can be causing the voltage IN my tank. They arent grounded at all... They were second hand retrofits that i installed like newb in a hurry to get his tank up, with no electrical knowledge and no directions. I needed the reflectors grounded and the ballasts and neither are anything close to being grounded. I was not unplugging my lights earlier because..., well, they have absolutly no contact with my tank. I did not figure they could cause this but i did suspect them once i stuck my finger in with the lights on today and i got zinged.
Also he suggested very strongly, like many have, that i use a GFCI and a ground probe for MY safety first and foremost. And i realize now that my experiment with the biocube was completely foolish as well, that circuit is NOT grounded and i know this. IF there would have been a shorting out maxi jet or anything in that tank, i would likely be dead because there is no other escape route for the current because the outlet is not grounded. I would have made the ground and it would have passed right through me, and likely injured me at the very least.

Im going to get off my soap but this should be a prime example of an under experienced reefer thinking he knew enough, when in reality i knew nothing, and it was potentially some very serious mistakes.

Grounded GFCI outlets and probes for me, ty.

[psteeleb]

glad to hear you found the cause and alive to talk about it.

[mixed_reefer]

I think i can explain why i was getting shocked even when the tank lights were off. I run a reverse photoperiod my sumpand fuge lights on a timer that is not grounded because again i was doing things my way and not the right way. I used a cheap light timer that is only 2 prongs and i snapped the thrid prong off of the adapter i used to plug in my lighting down there, none of it is properly grounded. It was less of a shock becuase the MH fuge light is like 3 feet off the tank. I unpluged the sump lighting because i thought it was close enough to the tank to be a possibility. I did not unplug the ungrounded sunpod because its hung from the ceiling and 3 feet off the tank..
If im wrong and i find leaky equip i will come back and let yas know but im almost sure, that my pumps and heaters are good. I take good care of them and i am extra careful when cleaning around the cords that go into the device so i dont break the epoxy seal.
I belive i did not realize this before now because when i bought my second set of bulbs i had to move the fixtures up to acclimate and i jumped from 14 to 10k. The fixtures were too close to the tank for me to stick my hand in there when the lights were on, i can swivel them back when i need acess but i always waited till lights out so i was not moving around a lit bulb. Plus im normally wearing shoes of some sort wich ground me well enough i guess. 95 percent of the time i wear shoes in that room cause its down stairs and the floors are cold and the other 5 percent of the time i doubt i had cuts on my hand... Its been like this for more than a year now, absolutly unreal.

[mixed_reefer]

Thanks for all your help pst, you got me thinking and together in time we would have found it.

[ReidiLoverLinds]

Get one. It might save your life.

[samtheman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11981565#post11981565 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
[B]The GFCI does not need or utilize a ground probe to trip so its presence is not necessary. Use a GFCI and forget about the ground probe. There is no data suggesting it will help the health of your fish, and a good possibility it will be a hazzard to your safety.

I strongly disagree.

With a ground probe and a GFCI, there is a path to ground, so any exposed electrical wires will leak some current into the water and out the ground probe, triggering the GFCI.

Without a ground probe and with a GFCI, there is often no path to ground, so the GFCI will not trip until there is a path to ground.

The first thing to provide that path may be your body. I do not want to test the expectation that the GFCI will trip in time to protect me. I'd rather it trip as soon as there is the potential for a problem of that sort, and a ground probe allows that.

Further, if there are exposed wires in the water (like a broken heater or powerhead), they may release copper or heavy metals and not actually trip a GFCI since there is no path to ground. With a ground probe, such an event trips a GFCI immediately, alerting you to the problem earlier than if you had no such probe.


and a good possibility it will be a hazzard to your safety.[?B]

What scenario involving both a ground probe and a GFCI endangers your safety relative to a GFCI alone?

Would you add a ground probe to a tank that didn't use a GFCI? I know I would not as that would be like taping a ground to your leg and then touching electrical machinery. If you had a short in your lights and your hands in the water, touching the lights with your head could kill you. Electricians who work with live loads avoid grounds, so they don't subject themselves to current flow.
Now you have grounded your tank and the only thing protecting you is a safety device called a GFCI. They don't always work by the way, leaving you with a grounded tank.

GFCI's measure the outgoing current and compare it to the returning current. If there is a difference, there must be a short, so the unit trips. There is no need for a ground. I have installed them in older homes with out grounds. They work fine. Please be accurate as you have a reputation in chemistry and others will believe what you say here too.

[Roy G. Biv]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11986423#post11986423 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
I actually did my best to ground the circuit my computer was going to have to be on. I ran a pipe about 4 foot into the ground and ran me a copper lead all the way to the socket that i needed. My computer was shocking me much the same as my tank is before i grounded it.

Many would think this is ok. However you create an additional problem probably unrelated to your tank. When you use a seperate ground for a seperate outlet in the house, it has a different "ground potential" This means that if that ground is better than your house ground, electricity can flow between the two. A better option would be to ground to the nearest cold water pipe, since the pipe should already be grounded with the rest of the house.

[mixed_reefer]

There is no ground in that part of the house at all, i think my house was built in 1935, so. The whole house is 2 prong plugs except what was remodeled downstairs.
I grounded a separate single outlet where there is no ground. Do i still have cause for concern in this case?

[mixed_reefer]

My tank is in the dark except for the sump lighting which seems to not be causing a problem. As far as i can tell right now i have one leaky maxi-jet and 3 ungrounded metal halides.
I am proud to say that my fish and i are no longer taking any current, i just need to get things wired up properly today, install the GFCI and ground everything.

[psteeleb]

Would you add a ground probe to a tank that didn't use a GFCI?

I still would use a ground probe - see my item 3 in one of the above posts regarding HLLE

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would you add a ground probe to a tank that didn't use a GFCI? I know I would not as that would be like taping a ground to your leg and then touching electrical machinery. If you had a short in your lights and your hands in the water, touching the lights with your head could kill you. Electricians who work with live loads avoid grounds, so they don't subject themselves to current flow.
Now you have grounded your tank and the only thing protecting you is a safety device called a GFCI. They don't always work by the way, leaving you with a grounded tank.


I agree that is a far more complicated situation. I'd never run a tank without a GFCI, but if you do not have one, a ground probe may be a safety hazard. For example, if you touched a light fixture that was live with 120 v, and then touched the water that was grounded at the same time.

The analogy is the grounding of kitchen appliances. It is not always safer to ground them if a second nearby appliance (like a kitchen blender) might provide a path to ground if you touched it when live from the first malfunctioning appliance.

IMO, GFCI are absolutely essential. Then a secondary consideration is a grounding probe, which is desirable, IMO.

GFCI's measure the outgoing current and compare it to the returning current. If there is a difference, there must be a short, so the unit trips. There is no need for a ground. I have installed them in older homes with out grounds. They work fine. Please be accurate as you have a reputation in chemistry and others will believe what you say here too.

Absolutely true, and it doe snot disagree with what I said. But if tanks are ungrounded, there may be no path to ground from a broken device, and so may not trip until you provide that path with your body.

I also agree that GFCI's alone do not completely protect. I had wet salty hands once and grabbed a plug when I shouldn't have. Current came out the hot and down the neutral, never tripping the GFCI since none leaked to ground, but sending a jolt through my fingers.

[lloydkeller]

ALLWAYS USE A GROUND, even just the smallest amount ov voltage can stress fish and in the extrem if someting goes wrong with equip it can kill

[Roy G. Biv]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11989122#post11989122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lloydkeller
ALLWAYS USE A GROUND

Yeah, you tell them Lloyd!!

[samtheman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11989122#post11989122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lloydkeller
ALLWAYS USE A GROUND, even just the smallest amount ov voltage can stress fish and in the extrem if someting goes wrong with equip it can kill

Voltage doesn't harm anything. Only when there is current flow is somthing in danger. You encourage that by installing the ground. I don't want to argue further, but at least you should read up on electricity.

[jthomps123]

Just put a voltmeter on my tank. It tested to about 12 volts.... the heater seems to be adding the majority of that. I added a grounding probe i had but never installed and it went to zero. Is this the correct course of action aside from replacing the heater. The powerheads in the tank also seem to add a couple volts, is this ok?

[Roy G. Biv]

When heaters go bad, thats what happens. I would replace that. Powerheads normally add minimal current to the tank.

[samtheman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11990550#post11990550 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pmolan
When heaters go bad, thats what happens. I would replace that. Powerheads normally add minimal current to the tank. Do you give a guarantee with your advice?

[jthomps123]

Excuse my ignorance in electrical matters...

Is my understanding correct that with a faulty / no GFCI used in conjunction with a ground probe im putting myself in grave danger were a piece of eqiupment fail / malfunction.

Also...

Using a GFCI w/o a ground probe im putting my tank in possible danger from a possible equipment malfuntion dumping excessive stray voltage into my tank?

Would a viable solution be to use a GFCI and a ground and check the GFCI frequently?

[Roy G. Biv]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11992411#post11992411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
Do you give a guarantee with your advice?

I'm not sure what was wrong with my statement. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[mixed_reefer]

I got everything straight with my tank. GFCI installed and everything is grounded and i feel no current at all. For some reason my sixline was blind or something when i kicked the lights on to test them. It was pretty bad, he was breathing real hard and running into everything in the tank. It was so bad that he ran into the corner and i stuck my hand in there to see if i could grab him and he just laid in my hand. He was in real bad shape so i did what i thought was right. I had that fish over a year and everyone else looks fine. I have more sensitive fish than that wrasse, In fact i found him half dried up in my overflow box once and he made it through that. Im wondering if when i was sticking my finger in there and getting shocked if it didnt have some adverse effect on him. Any ideas on this? The only difference in my tank was 1 day without lights and i fixed the voltage leak...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Voltage doesn't harm anything. Only when there is current flow is somthing in danger. You encourage that by installing the ground. I don't want to argue further, but at least you should read up on electricity.

I think the most common way that current flows in the water in a way that could potentially harm fish (not saying it does, however) is not "leaking" from a broken device, but induced current by the many electrical and magnetic devices we use. Whether these induced currents are increased or decreased by a ground probe, I do not know, and do not think the answer is easily worked out, but they still flow well without the tank being grounded.

[samtheman]

You may be right, but there is little if any data. So opinions flourish.

[psteeleb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11996153#post11996153 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
You may be right, but there is little if any data. So opinions flourish.

Valid point but, I fail to understand why anyone would want to get to that argument. That is, unless, you are in a circumstance of risk to start with.

Follow the logic through and you should not be in that circumstance.

First – properly install your equipment. If it comes with grounded cords make sure they are grounded. Also you should maintain your equipment to operate in a safe mode, this may include testing for stray currents caused by shorts or faulty equipment once and a while.

Second – Install GFCI, there is a reason that every residential building code in the US has a requirement to install GFCI in and around areas with water (kitchens, baths, garages, outside, etc). If you depend on the circuit breaker, it’s too late, you may be dead.

Third – use a ground probe in conjunction with your GFCI, to protect yourself and loved ones. This will trip the GFCI in the event you have a short to ground. If nothing else it’s a good indicator of something wrong. Without the ground but with a short, it’s a problem waiting to happen.

The above are not that arguable (are they?)

What appears to be arguable is if you do not take the above precautions and have a short or other stray voltage in the tank. For those that are up and running without GFCI and a ground probe, I understand your concern, I’d just be concerned for more then the fish.

Good practices:
Protect yourself when working on the tank. Wear proper clothing including good shoes if you’re going to be working in or around the electricity and water (be it an aquarium or something else)

Properly install your equipment, including adherence to building codes. Not just GFCI, also don’t overload your circuits.

Maintain your equipment, including checking for faulty or frayed wiring, shorts etc.

Work into your annual maintenance routine a program to get rid of salt creep and clean your electrical cables and equipment.

BTW - great discussion thread

[HBtank]

One scenerio needs to be brought up... Single GFCI's

With all equipment through just one GFCI, than you are creating a much greater danger of a tank crash by having all the equipment shut down while you are away from the tank.

Someone is not always around to be alerted.

And in the case where the GFCI would not trip, then the lack of a grounding probe may actually SAVE a tank without a probe. Of course, then you are relying on it tripping later by your own action, and it working effectively to save you. This is seemingly a bad idea by Randy's comments... I guess even the smallest risk is not acceptable.

I think everyone should always consider multiple GFCI's, regardless of grounding probe or not. They have been known to trip for various reasons, hazardous or not, and are not perfect. Counting on one GFCI unit is risky to the tank IMO.

Keeping your main pump and powerheads on seperate GFCI's is a good way to ensure redundancy and that circulation is not lost by one single GFCI tripping while away...

Some even use seperate GFCI's for every piece of equipment...

I think having multiple GFCI's (at least two) and a grounding probe seems like the safest route for you and your tank..

[psteeleb]

I think everyone should always consider multiple GFCI's, regardless of grounding probe or not. They have been known to trip for various reasons, hazardous or not, and are not perfect. Counting on one GFCI unit is risky to the tank IMO.

Keeping your main pump and powerheads on seperate GFCI's is a good way to ensure redundancy and that circulation is not lost by one single GFCI tripping while away...

Some even use seperate GFCI's for every piece of equipment...

I think having multiple GFCI's (at least two) and a grounding probe seems like the safest route for you and your tank.. [/B]

Excellent and very valid point, thanks for pointing it out.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think having multiple GFCI's (at least two) and a grounding probe seems like the safest route for you and your tank..

I agree that is a good plan. I have more than 15 that I use on my system. They are not expensive to gang together or make little extension cords out of a loose outlet box and a GFCI. :)

[mixed_reefer]

so i can take a 3 pronged ext cord and wire it into a gfci outlet and box and then plug it into another gfci? I want my pumps separate from the rest of the tanks electrical but i want it all on gfci's.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I can hear my attorney wife yelling at me to not give electrical advice, so I'll only point out that if you do it the way you intend, the first GFCI may trip and turn off all of them that are plugged into it. :)

If you are not electrically handy, or are at all worried about electricity, you can buy such devices premade. Essentially they are extension cords with a GFCI on them. :)

[mixed_reefer]

Yea but if its going to trip the main GFCI (inwall) Then it really is useless to do. Im going to have to pull from another circuit and it looks like im going to have to ground that circuit before i make any moves.

I am not really electrically handy so to speak but i would be if i was eclectically knowledgeable. I appreciated everyones advice.

[mixed_reefer]

Any idea on what possibly happened to my sixline?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yea but if its going to trip the main GFCI (inwall) Then it really is useless to do. Im going to have to pull from another circuit and it looks like im going to have to ground that circuit before i make any moves.

I've had them in series like that and sometimes only one trips, sometimes both.

[samtheman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12001109#post12001109 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Yea but if its going to trip the main GFCI (inwall) Then it really is useless to do. Im going to have to pull from another circuit and it looks like im going to have to ground that circuit before i make any moves.

I've had them in series like that and sometimes only one trips, sometimes both. So ground the tank, it will make you safe.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The concern is trying to limit the number of devices that shut down at once, not aquarist safety. :)

[mixed_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12001572#post12001572 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
So ground the tank, it will make you safe.

Are you saying that i would not need to ground the second circuit because, as long as the tank is grounded and the pumps on the ungrounded circuit are in the tank, basically its grounded?

I have a titanium ground rod on its way, I have every intention of grounding the tank and the second circuit as needed.

[lark]

I installed a separate 20 amp line to the wall next to my tank, with two independent GFI outlets. I have most of the equipment plugged into one GFI, and a koralia plugged into the other.

I also use a ground probe.

I'm not an electrician and not qualified to give opinions on this stuff by any means, but based on my understand and what I've read the benefit of using a probe (with a properly functioning GFI) outweighs any perceived negative, which I have never understood despite the vocal minority here that doesn't like them.

[mixed_reefer]

Mine will be here tomorrow and ill be glad to be able to put this episode behind me. I appreciate everyones thoughts and input.

[fmfoxx]

Hello. I had the same problem this morning. Couldn't figure out which device was causing the electricity in my tank.

But I devised away to completely eliminate the charge, at least while i go about finding what caused it to begin with. here's the link:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12026068#post12026068

[ErikS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12025551#post12025551 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lark
I'm not an electrician and not qualified to give opinions on this stuff by any means, but based on my understand and what I've read the benefit of using a probe (with a properly functioning GFI) outweighs any perceived negative, which I have never understood despite the vocal minority here that doesn't like them.
It's not a dislike, it's an understanding of how GFCI outlets/breakers work - some deem the grounding probe unecessary.

One myth that seems present here - the need for more than one GFCI on a circuit. They protect ALL outlets "downstream", you only need one per circuit........but it does need to be the first outlet on the circuit (or at least the 1st from the point you wish to protect).

The second myth is that a GFCI needs a short or ground to trip - it doesn't. It measures (compares really) the inbound & outbound legs of a circuit - in the event of a mismatch it will trip. This condition IS indeed caused by a short, a ground.....but it can occur without a short.

Short version - the reason for the mismatch isn't relevant, it happened = break the circuit.

Use one or not with a GFCI, your call, your comfort level. Use a probe without a GFCI and you could very well be asking for trouble - you may be the final leg to ground (way too many variables/setups to discuss).

I am not an electrician & I am not giving advice - I am only stating a GFCI will trip without a short to ground.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11996025#post11996025 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
I think the most common way that current flows in the water in a way that could potentially harm fish (not saying it does, however) is not "leaking" from a broken device, but induced current by the many electrical and magnetic devices we use. Whether these induced currents are increased or decreased by a ground probe, I do not know, and do not think the answer is easily worked out, but they still flow well without the tank being grounded.
Why do you think high tension line workers "clamp on"? Birds sit on the electrical lines all the time?

Current only "flows" when it has somewhere to go, a path. Without a path I'd wager the animals aren't even aware it's in the tank - just like you underneath high tension lines.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One myth that seems present here - the need for more than one GFCI on a circuit. They protect ALL outlets "downstream", you only need one per circuit........but it does need to be the first outlet on the circuit (or at least the 1st from the point you wish to protect).

Perhaps you misunderstood the point we were making. We all believe that tone GFCI on a circuit will protect everything if installed correctly. What we do not want is every single device to shut down if one has a fault. SO every device on its own GFCI prevents that. :)


The second myth is that a GFCI needs a short or ground to trip - it doesn't. It measures (compares really) the inbound & outbound legs of a circuit - in the event of a mismatch it will trip. This condition IS indeed caused by a short, a ground.....but it can occur without a short.


Perhaps you misunderstand this point as well. Sure, a GFCI will trip if there is any path for electricity to follow aside from back down the same outlet it came out of. But without something grounding the tank, there may be no other path, and so current may not flow until that other path is put into place. Often that new path will be the aquarist, perhaps with one hand in the tank and a second on his light to balance as he cleans the tank. The GFCI may then trip before he gets a lethal dose of electricity.. But I'd want to know if such a scenario was in place before I completed the loop.

Use one or not with a GFCI, your call, your comfort level. Use a probe without a GFCI and you could very well be asking for trouble - you may be the final leg to ground (way too many variables/setups to discuss).

That is a point we agree on, and I do not think anyone here recommended aground with the tank not on a GFCI. :)


I am only stating a GFCI will trip without a short to ground.

Where do you propose the electricity goes? If you mean that another device may be grounded, then yes, that device grounds the tank. Or in some cases it will actually leak into the actual ground under the tank, like a basement floor. But often there is no adequate path to ground in an aquarium to trip a GFCI.

Why do you think high tension line workers "clamp on"? Birds sit on the electrical lines all the time?

Current only "flows" when it has somewhere to go, a path. Without a path I'd wager the animals aren't even aware it's in the tank - just like you underneath high tension lines.

Do you not understand what induced current are? You believe they do not exist? Induced currents are well understood. I don't claim they will kill a human. But many marine organisms are unusually sensitive to electrical issues in the water around them. Will that hurt them? I do not know, as I stated above. But your assertion that they are harmless seems rather unsubstantiated.

[psteeleb]

Well put Randy, I think you did a great job articulating and clarifying some very valid points of confusion. I totally agree on all points.

The bird on a wire scenario is not pertinent; maybe if you could put the bird in the wire we would have a closer analogy. The real point is electricity will always take the path of least resistance. What we are talking about is creating a different path through an animal or person. Now, if that same bird was on that same wire, and moved close to, or, touched the tower (a path to ground), it would be not only be dead but most likely vaporized.

I also agree that no GFCI and a ground probe is a very debatable situation, but firmly believe you shouldn’t be without the GFCI in the first place.

[drparker]

Interesting stuff. Back when I did cichlids I followed a few threads on this topic. When you asked the ocupation and if they used a ground the answers I feel was very revealing.

Everyone always agrees, always use GFCI outlets.

Any electrical engineer who worked with high voltage regularly flat-out without hesitation said they would not use a ground probe.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12000406#post12000406 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
so i can take a 3 pronged ext cord and wire it into a gfci outlet and box and then plug it into another gfci? I want my pumps separate from the rest of the tanks electrical but i want it all on gfci's.

No, they will not work connected in that manner. You can not daisy chain GFCIs from LOAD to LINE or plug one GFCI into another.

You must wire them in parallel. That is, each GFCI receptacle should be fed directly from the hot and neutral feed.

[BeanAnimal]

FWIW:

Current DOES flow through the bird. The wire he stands on has a known resistance, voltage and current. The birds body is a conductor with a known resistance between his feet. When the bird stands on an energized wire, he becomes a parallel resistor with the portion of the line he stands on. The current is very small but it does exist because his two feet are separated by a few inches and therefore at differing points of potential on the wire (due to its own resistance).

The situation is more complex in a fish tank where the conductor surrounds the animal, but like the bird-on-a-wire, current can and will flow through the fish from one point of potential to another. If the fish is in that path of current, a portion of it will flow through the fish.

We know that many marine creatures are hyper sensitive to electrical fields...

Like Randy, I don't have the answers and I am not sure where I stand on ground probes from the perspective of the animals and electric fields or currents. I do however know that a ground probe is an enhancement to the GFCI protection that SHOULD be on every fish tank.

I do not use a ground probe, but have made that choice based on a firm grasp of the electrical realities on both sides of the issue.

Also FWIW, the lineman clamps onto the wire so that he does not get an ARC from the wire to his body. His body (like the birds) has resistance. The surrounding wire has LESS resistance. It is therefore more likely for a local object to then arc directly from the wire, NOT through the lineman. What object would that be? Anything, including the bucket or helicopter that places him on the wire.

[Denver aquarist]

Where do you guys place your ground in the tank?

[rbursek]

Mine is actually in my fuge/sump in the basement connected to a water pipe.

[Denver aquarist]

So you don't have the kind that plugs into the wall? Why would you have it in the sump where there are no fish?

[rbursek]

Salt water is conductive, pure h2o and I mean pure no TDS is not, it can as is used as an insulator in some comercial pump motors as a coolent, so the salt water flow from the first floor to the sump/fuge is a conductor, just like a copper wire. If you look at your circuit breaker box most if in a basement are grounded to a water pipe, it is the ground for it, because the piping is under ground and our planet Earth is the ground.

[Denver aquarist]

Ok so it doesn't matter where the ground is then. Id rather mine be in my sump (Need to buy one still) What is the best kind of ground the only ones I have seen are the plug in the wall type.

[rbursek]

If you have a basement and your electric box is grounded that way, and have a water meter where your water main comes in you will see a copper cable strap connected to each side of the piping around the meter because the meter will not let the ground become completed, so the have to "bypass" the meter this way.

[Denver aquarist]

SO there are other ways to ground the tank other then the plug in ones?

[BeanAnimal]

The bottom line is that IF you use a grounding probe, it MUST be physically grounded to the SAME earth ground that your electrical service is grounded to. You should NEVER ground anything in your home to an individual ground rod or other source. Doing so can result in a very dangerous situation. The cold water pipe IS part of the grounding system that your electrical panel is bonded to, so it is fine unless it is isolated by a section of plastic pipe.

[rbursek]

Denver,
at6 the big box stores get a 1/8 diam of stainless steal, about a foot long, in the elect dept get what ever lenght of 12 gauge wire, and talk to them and tell them what you are doing, and buy a grounding clamp, it clamps onto the pipe, and has a slot with a bolt/screw that the bare wire goes in, the other end of the wire goes to the stainless steel rod and in you r tank or sump/fuge.

[Denver aquarist]

Is this a better way then using one of the plug in the wall grounds?

[BeanAnimal]

If you are not 100% SURE what you are doing, then the plug in style is a sure thing, otherwise the DIY approach can save you a few bucks.

[richierich2000]

I know that people have said that stray voltage doesn't hurt fish I am not sure about fish but I had a mantis shrimp die over night it had been doing great I couldn't belive it died till I put my hand in there I had a old mj power head in there it shocked the crap out of me.

I am trying to find leak now but I am not having any luck. would a prob help me?

can external pumps leak?
reeflo barracuda and dart (orca)and a little giant?

does tunze leak they are a month old?

3x maxi sure flow unplugged no change?

I have 2 eheim pumps one on a calcium reactor and one on a nitrate reactor but I don't feel any difference on or off.

[Puterguru]

Sorry to bring back this somewhat dead thread but I was wondering..

Is there one Brand of GFCI that is better than others? I need to purchase one tonight, electrician coming over tomorrow, I want a good quality brand.

Thanks!

[Michael]

have alook at this lot, interesting reading, i believe though aground probe is needed with a gfci, but i would not fit 1 without a gfci, good reading these threads have alook

http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/gfcimarfaqs.htm
http://www.thekrib.com/TankHardware/gfci.html
http://www.northcoastmarines.com/grnd_probe_and_gfi.htm
http://www.doityourself.com/stry/gfci