New DOW calcium chloride OK to use daily as a supplement?

[Bonebrake]

These are the values I used for my simulation:

Bromide concentration of natural seawater at 35 ppt: ~0.0674 g / L

Bromide in one kg (1000 g) of Dow calcium chloride: 7 g bromide / kg

In this simulation I chose a relatively high number for supplementation at 1000 grams per week and a 20% weekly water change which would contain 0.0674% bromide for 52 weeks in a 120 gallon system. This amount of calcium supplementation would be substantially higher than even the most demanding SPS and clam loaded tank.

The first column denotes how much bromide per liter would be in the water if there was no removal and the second column denotes the bromide concentration assuming the only source of removal is a 20% water change. (We do not yet have clear data how much bromide may become attached to protein and skimmed out or how much may be consumed by macroalgae and removed.)

0.0674
0.0828
0.0982
0.1136
0.129
0.1444
0.1598
0.1752
0.1906
0.206
0.2214
0.2368
0.2522
0.2676
0.283
0.2984
0.3138
0.3292
0.3446
0.36
0.3754
0.3908
0.4062
0.4216
0.437
0.4524
0.4678
0.4832
0.4986
0.514
0.5294
0.5448
0.5602
0.5756
0.591
0.6064
0.6218
0.6372
0.6526
0.668
0.6834
0.6988
0.7142
0.7296
0.745
0.7604
0.7758
0.7912
0.8066
0.822
0.8374
0.8528

-----

0.0674
0.07972
0.089576
0.0974608
0.10376864
0.108814912
0.11285193
0.116081544
0.118665235
0.120732188
0.12238575
0.1237086
0.12476688
0.125613504
0.126290803
0.126832643
0.127266114
0.127612891
0.127890313
0.12811225
0.1282898
0.12843184
0.128545472
0.128636378
0.128709102
0.128767282
0.128813825
0.12885106
0.128880848
0.128904679
0.128923743
0.128938994
0.128951195
0.128960956
0.128968765
0.128975012
0.12898001
0.128984008
0.128987206
0.128989765
0.128991812
0.12899345
0.12899476
0.128995808
0.128996646
0.128997317
0.128997854
0.128998283
0.128998626
0.128998901
0.128999121
0.128999297

This simulation shows that the concentration of bromide in water essentially doubles relatively quickly, but then stabilizes at approximately ~0.129%.

This calculation can apply to longer intervals for water changes such as every other week or every month, but then you have to stretch out the 1000 grams of supplementation of calcium chloride over two weeks or a month as well.

Therefore, if you would add 1000 grams every two weeks and then do a 20% water change every two weeks then the second column would still apply, likewise, 1000 grams used over a month and a 20% water change every month.

In my humble opinion, I have no data of course, I do not feel that even a doubling of the concentration of this anion in our reefs could have any negative impact. At a natural concentration of 0.0674% how can 0.129% be that bad? For comparison, in the human body our electrolytes are tightly regulated and have a short range of what is considered normal and when they get out of whack bad things happen, but even at this extremely high rate of supplementation and standard water change regimen there is only a slight change.

Bromide can probably be likened to many of the other trace elements in seawater, it is present, may be involved occasionally or accidentally in some reactions, but otherwise just spectates and doesn't make a fuss.

[Billybeau1]

Best to let Randy look at this. :D So I'll give it a bump for the AM

This is Randy's thread about the new Dow, if you haven't seen it.

www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1275153

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The problem is that I just do not know what levels of bromide are OK and what are not.

FWIW, it is entirely possible that bromide is very rapidly depleted by macroalgae. That is my prediction anyway. But Until we get some way to measure it, we cannot know.

20% weekly is quite a bit above the norm for water changes, but I agree that adequate water changes removes or at least reduces the concern.

I'm presently of the opinion that there is not likely a big concern since many reefers have been using the bromide-enhanced Dowflake for quite a while without knowing it and report few if any problems. But without knowing what to look for, it is hard to know.

[Bonebrake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11987408#post11987408 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
Best to let Randy look at this. :D So I'll give it a bump for the AM

This is Randy's thread about the new Dow, if you haven't seen it.

www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1275153

D'oh! :rollface:

[Bonebrake]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11988917#post11988917 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
The problem is that I just do not know what levels of bromide are OK and what are not.

FWIW, it is entirely possible that bromide is very rapidly depleted by macroalgae. That is my prediction anyway. But Until we get some way to measure it, we cannot know.

20% weekly is quite a bit above the norm for water changes, but I agree that adequate water changes removes or at least reduces the concern.

I'm presently of the opinion that there is not likely a big concern since many reefers have been using the bromide-enhanced Dowflake for quite a while without knowing it and report few if any problems. But without knowing what to look for, it is hard to know.

20% a week is hefty, but as I said, that 20% could be applied to any interval of time so long as 1000 grams of DOW calcium chloride was used over the same time period.

What evidence do you have on macroalgae that you think bromide is consumed by it? Or is that a hunch? :confused:

I am glad to hear other reefers are using it with no ill effects. I plan to continue to use it to meet my calcium and alkalinity demands now that they have outstripped my saturated kalkwasser top-off.

:)

[Kalkbreath]

I have been running some test vats with clams and algae for a few months now. (new DOW) I have noticed a sharp increase in Algae growth in the systems with the higher bromide.
So do I agree that it seems they (the algae) do use it to their advantage.

But this may be an unwelcome side effect for those hobbyists who dont like to prune macro plant growth weekly.
SPS and Clam reef tanks may find the boost in Bromide an unwelcome
and unpopular event.

I have also found that elevated Bromide doesn't seem to harm the hundreds of clams I have tested with the new DOW , but does seem to cause a slight browning of the clams color. I have examined the Zooxanthella inside these clams to see if changes in the zoox is whats causing the change in color, but have not found any visible changes in the higher Bromide exposed Zoox.
It may be that the browning in color has more to do with a change in the color producing Proteins.
It also may be that its a case of the Bromide turbo charged macro algaes out competing the Clams and their Zooxanthella for nutrients and elements.
I have yet to fully test the higher Bromide in a Macro algae free environment.
Difficulties with keeping Macro algaes from popping up out of the live rock and evenn the clam shells once the Elevated Bromide additions begin.

Bromide is an important component of sea water chemistry.
Many sea salts are deficient in this element.
But elevated Bromide levels seem to produce two unfavorable reactions for clam keeping hobbyists.

Jeff

[Bonebrake]

Interesting... I will be looking for color change in my clams and increased algae growth.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What evidence do you have on macroalgae that you think bromide is consumed by it? Or is that a hunch?

There is discussion here of bromide in marine organisms:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030626163126/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/oct/bio/default.asp

Here's an old reference:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v214/n5088/abs/214604a0.html

Bromide, a Substitute for Chloride in a Marine Algal Medium


J. MCLACHLAN & J. S. CRAIGIE


Atlantic Regional Laboratory, National Research Council, Halifax, Nova Scotia.


ALGAE are known to concentrate the element bromine, but, like chlorine, this may occur only as ballast1. The nature of accumulated bromine is uncertain. In several rhodophycean species, specialized cells, or "bromuques", have been recognized2, whereas chlorine is apparently accumulated in the vacuole. Large amounts of bromine have been shown to occur in organic combination with phenols in members of the Rhodomelaceae1–3.


and

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TH7-3WJ7T7V-X&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d1615149a7a47d04d6b4dd5c78b22d4d

Seasonal variation in bromophenol content andbromoperoxidase activity in Ulva lactuca

Carina Flodin1, Fay Helidoniotis1 and Frank B. Whitfield1, *
1 Food Science Australia, P.O. Box 52, North Ryde, NSW 1670, Australia
Received 28 July 1998. Available online 24 May 1999.



Abstract
Seasonal variation in bromophenol content and bromoperoxidase activity in the greenmarine alga, Ulva lactuca, was studied. Bromophenols were extracted from the alga bysimultaneous steam distillation-solvent extraction, followed by identification and quantificationby gas chromatography–mass spectrometry. A method for the extraction of bromoperoxidasesfrom the alga was developed, which includes homogenisation in Milli-Q water and addition ofglycerol. The results obtained show that both bromophenol content and bromoperoxidase activityexhibit extreme seasonal variation, with high values in summer and low ones in winter.