Probiotics for NPS tanks - Vodka, Prodibio, Zeovit etc.

[sammy33]

I am thinking seriously about starting an NPS style reef (or possibly converting my SPS reef) and want to discuss probiotics.

What are Probiotics?
Probiotic methods introduce beneficial bacteria into the aquarium system or introduce a fuel source for the bacteria presently in the system to encourage consumption/conversion of nitrates, phosphates and organics. Methods like Zeovit or Polyp Labs Reefresh or Ultralith or even DIY method with vodka dosing or even using bio-spira/cycle etc. These methods seek to reduce nutrients in the form of dissolved organics, nitrate, phosphate to very low levels. This in turn creates a water born bio-mass that can be removed by your skimmer. This allows increased feedings and hopefully results in better coral health with a cleaner environment. Seems to work as I see lots of positive results with these type methods - even Pappone/Blu Coral method that uses sugar as the carbon source.

With that said it seems that Chuck Stottlemire is having great results with using Vodka dosing on his system at the rate of 9ml/day for a 500g system. Charles Matthews proposed that bacteria may be introduced by Chuck's feed mix being dripped at room temp over 12 hours?

I have been using Prodibio. This uses a bacteria source and and bacteria food to strenghthen these organic waste removers in the reef aquarium with periodic dosing. It seems to be doing a great job at helping control nutrients in my SPS reef tank. This product seems like it may also be useful in an NPS reef as the bacteria and water born biologicals may act as a food source as well as reduce the polluting factor of a constant infusion of phytoplankton?

Hmmm? Any other experiences or ideas on using these systems? Zeovit with some sort of automatic media stirrer?

[Kreeger1]

I
m dosing 10 ml per day on my 400 gal non photo system. I also ordered Prodibio on friday to add another bacteria source to feed my dendro's I will post results as followed.

With 10 ml per day I get a white film on the glass every other day or so. I'm hoping that the dendros feed on that. Today chuck was over with his mesoscope, but luck wasn't on my side today. the dendros were n't open and feeding... hour later and everything was all open but only the scerlos and gorgonians were while he was over.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e109/kreeger1/chuckmesoscope.jpg

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


I'm not going to jump too deeply into this (... yet ..) as I'm in the process of finalizing my design for utilizing the "basic 4" (nutrient reduction components) of the ZEOvit system to drive an NPS reef, but ...


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11994186#post11994186 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sammy33
... the bacteria and water born biologicals may act as a food source as well as reduce the polluting factor of a constant infusion of phytoplankton? ...
There's no question that bacterioplankton have the potential to constitute a component of an azooxanthelate coral's energy budget ... whether it's much more than ~20% remains an open question. A far more interesting question ... to my little twisted mind, at least ... is what does the nutrient profile of a phytoplankton-bacterioplankton aggregate look like? I suspect that a phytoplankton cell with an associated bacteria colony delivers enough "enrichment" to make it worth the effort.

There's little question that a "probiotic" component would be a legitimate component to aid in nutrient reduction. I would also suggest that there's a potentially big difference in the nutrient reduction performance between "probiotic" strategies which incorporate a bacterial culturing vessel (a la zeo or ultralith "reactors") compared with strategies which are confined to only nurient and/or bacteria dosing.



JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

[sammy33]

Interesting paralells between an SPS style reef that say for instance is managed using zeovit and has all the other traditional trappings (big skimmer, large sump, great flow, even kalk reactors, etc.). The NPS reef may be almost the same just take away the super bright lighting and replace with some fluorescents, realign the flow for laminar or tidal laminar and start the feedings.

The reduction in intense lighting will seem necessary with all this food/enrichment going on in an NPS stlye reef. If the tank is even devoid of photosynthetic animals you may not need to run the lights for more than a few hours a day simply so you can look at your corals. :cool:

I am wondering if it would be wise to completely eliminate photosynthesis? There is photosynthesis going on on the reef somewhere...right? So what do the probiotic methods do differently in this style system NPS reef with way less photosynthesis occuring?

I would think that an attached refugium (reverse daylight photosynthesis) would be necessary and then the Dendro, Sclero display then becomes another zone in the ecosystem. The photosynthesis (uptake and oxygen productions) from an attached refgium seems more important for NPS tanks so shouldn't an NPS refugium be larger than average? Maybe match the display size or even larger?

Sorry for so many random thoughts here. Having a the new Non-Photosynthetic Corals forum is just the coolest thing so I am getting carried away. :D

[Stottlemire]

Alot of good thoughts, it will be interesting to find out what works

Chuck

[GreshamH]

Can you show me where Charles said he thought bacteria was being introduced by Chuck's style of feeding?

I said in a thread that the media Roti-Feast is in is a great source for a bacterial feed.

[Kolognekoral]

The idea of a multi eco-tat system run between multiple tanks has been my on-off project for some years. I am currently working with the Zeovit system, plus a DSB in a refugium. I do not have a sump in the traditional sense, rather a overflow chamber where the skimmer is plus a circulation pump for the main reef.

The refugium is attached to the reef above waterlevel and flows per gravity back into the reef at a rate of about 1000l per hour. The total system is around 900l. I run the refugium with a long day of 18 hours, while the reef is at 12. They do overlap and there is a 6 hour dark period in both tanks simulatneously.

I have had not pH problems, despite the kalkreaktor, but PO4 is always a bit higher than I would like, as there are SPS in the system, too. PO4 is around 0.09 and NO3 <1ppm.

I feed the tank two to three times per day for the fish and once every evening for the filterfeeders.

As I have been using Zeo for only a few months, after having tried the Ultralith system, which didn't appeal to me and the Elos system, which is plain old too expensive, even in Europe, and find this type of filtration has many benefits for one who wishes to reproduce a more reef-real aquarium.

We have mentioned bacteria and carbon dosing, which is a part of these systems. Vodka alone has proved to be less effective due to benefiting only certain bacterial strains. Multiple carbon sources provide a more balanced bacterial flora, but the question still remains, what carbon sources bring what results.:p

I have not gone after this question as, frankly, the products from Zeo suite me, are affordable and work for me. If I need to know more I have the advantage of being right near the source and can get advice. (Thomas may not give out his formulae, but he certainly likes exchanging info). But this is not the topic, per se.....

Dendronephthya are not bacteria feeders, rather phytoplankton feeders. Apparently, Scleronephthya are more omnivorous. Both are short lived on the reef. Gorgonians seem to be oriented toward bacteria and small zooplankton, but that is strictly an anecdotal observation. I suspect the Crinoids are, as well, but some seem to be very specialized in regards to food particle size.

I can say that since my pro-bio system has settled in, the Scleros, finer gorgonians, sponges and tunicates have really profited. Stone corals, as well, but they were always pretty good, the colours are just much improved, as is the growth rate.

I could go on, but I don't want to extend too far beyond this threads intent.

Just a few personal experiences..... :D

[Whalehead9]

If you do not release the biofilms from time to time how can the corals get enough energy from either a fuge or a zeovit reactor? I know that there are biolims available on the available surface area, but how do you get them to your corals for feed? it seems that with the vodka method, that the bloom of bacteria is suspended in the water column where the corals and the skimmers can take them out. Other than wiping down the sides of the aquarium, does anybody try to liberate any of these biofilms?

[Kreeger1]

Greshamh ,
why is it that you always seem to be on the attack. Relax man, relax

Charles said something to the sort by chucks use of vodka not the reed's products
Erik

[Kolognekoral]

Ahhh, yes. Well, one shakes the stones down a couple times a day, either by hand or some have added a second pump that actually pushes the stones about at periodic intervals. Then the film is free to flow back into the aquarium or be skimmed off.

To get a better visual image, check-out some on-line stores to see what these zeo reactors look like.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11998099#post11998099 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kreeger1
Greshamh ,
why is it that you always seem to be on the attack. Relax man, relax

Charles said something to the sort by chucks use of vodka not the reed's products
Erik

Your confusing my short posts as "an attack" but they aren't :( I wanted to see where that was said as I hadn't seen it. Since when is dry considerred an attack?

Charles Matthews proposed that bacteria may be introduced by Chuck's feed mix being dripped at room temp over 12 hours?

That led me to belive he's talking about the feeds Chuck doses over a 12 hour period, not the vodka. I wasn't aware vodka was any different at room temp then that of being cold, but RF/SD is effected. I could be wrong, which is another reason why I asked for a link.

[sammy33]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11997635#post11997635 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
Can you show me where Charles said he thought bacteria was being introduced by Chuck's style of feeding?

I said in a thread that the media Roti-Feast is in is a great source for a bacterial feed.

Charles was eluding to this in
this post in the Dendro thread. (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11951013#post11951013)

4) The cooling issue: Chuck has demonstrated that cooling isn't an issue for NP coral feeding as long as you reload at 12 hours. This is very valuable information, and I suggest you take it to the bank. For longer periods of time, I hope someone comes up with a reservoir/refrigerator concept. I think a syringe pump would have less degradation than a bucket. I have noted that the rotifer product degrades in the bucket at 12 hours, whereas it doesn't in the syringe pump. [i]But- perhaps they are not eating just rotifers, maybe they are eating the degraded slime?[i]

Charles is simply suggesting that the media in Roti-feast is degrading and may be providing additional food for the system. I interpreted this as a bacteria source? This sort of bio slime has been mentioned several times in the Dendro thread.

You likely know much more about roti-feast ingredients than anyone in this thread - so are we way off on this idea?

[druluv]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11998089#post11998089 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whalehead9
If you do not release the biofilms from time to time how can the corals get enough energy from either a fuge or a zeovit reactor? I know that there are biolims available on the available surface area, but how do you get them to your corals for feed? it seems that with the vodka method, that the bloom of bacteria is suspended in the water column where the corals and the skimmers can take them out. Other than wiping down the sides of the aquarium, does anybody try to liberate any of these biofilms?

This how I release the biofilm, or what zeoheads call mulm back into the display. I pump water from the last chamber in the sump, into my zeo-sump. I also have a small nano pump circulating water around the zeo rocks. Everyday I use a small pvc tube, and stir the rocks until it gets really cloudy in the zeo sump. A couple hours later, my softies open.

DIY Zeo Sump:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/druluv/photo-1.jpg

Here is an example:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/druluv/IMG_0384.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f224/druluv/IMG_0423RS.jpg

Please note: the Orange Coral is only 3 weeks added, and the red one is barely week in. But I must add that the zeo method is helping to get these corals to feed. I don’t know how long these guys will stay alive, but so far they look alright.

[Whalehead9]

I see that the feeding response seems to be quite strong by releasing the biofilms, But is that enough food to keep these animals healthy? Couldn't you feed once the polyps are open?

The more I think of this the more I'm reminded of sand stirring by Wilkens(I think that it was Wilkens, please Correct me if I'm wrong), and I can't find anybody who has replicated long term success. I think that biofilms can play a part in NPS systems, but any product that can increase suspended organisms have to be the best. I have not used the probidio method, but if is a strain of bacteria that can grow and suspend in the water column that does not need a fixed substrate, then it has to be a superior product. After all aren't we trying to create systems for suspension feeders? If we create systems that have large biofilms that release into the water column various organisms of various sizes can any of the corals we are trying hard to keep actually eat them?

[Kreeger1]

very interesting!

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12001529#post12001529 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sammy33
Charles was eluding to this in
this post in the Dendro thread. (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11951013#post11951013)



Charles is simply suggesting that the media in Roti-feast is degrading and may be providing additional food for the system. I interpreted this as a bacteria source? This sort of bio slime has been mentioned several times in the Dendro thread.

You likely know much more about roti-feast ingredients than anyone in this thread - so are we way off on this idea?

Ah that post. IIRC I posted a follow up question to his post to see what the "bucket" mix was, I.E. RF and SD diluted in NSW?

If it's not diluted product there shouldn't really be any bacteria. Now if it's diluted into NSW I could definitely see some baceria forming. The medie Roti-Feast is mixed in is a great bacteria food source once mixed with NSW :) Allowing RF to sit for that long most likely creates a biofilm around each rotifer as well as in the bucket water column.

[Kreeger1]

So is the bio film a good or bad thing for the dendro's or is that still open to discussion?
Erik

[Whalehead9]

It has to be open to discussion. Wouldn't the biofilm change overall size of the decomposing rotifer? Or is that the key?

I recently saw a program on one of the nature programs(there are too many to keep them all straight), and it was showing water coming up from great depths to a shallow reef and there in the pictures were very large NP soft corals. Now I couldn't tell what kind they were, But they had to be dendro or Sclero. If that is true, then the animals living there cannot be feeding on phyto. The water has not been exposed to any real sunlight for very long periods of time. The animals have to be feeding on marine snow of some sort. Like say conglomerates of bacteria feeding on small particles, like rotifers and other small unicellular organisms. If that is true, then what organisms we have in our tank will dictate how each feeding regimen will effect them. Could it be that mixing the Rotifers and SD and letting them develop a biofilm be what makes that feeding regimen so effective?

[airinhere]

Whalehead might have just hit the nail with the hammer.

The idea that the NPS corals are feeding on the bacteria covering the particles in the water would make plenty of sense.

And expain the hit or miss success NPS corals seem to be. We are focused on feeding them, but the foods were not prepared correctly.

Gresham, what is the medium RF is prepared in? Are there any other products with similar bacterial feeding properties? Might the medium be made available a'la carte? That way people could try mixing it with other food sources to try and see how the nps corals respond to the various food types?

I am thinking that perhaps a certain size of food is required for the nps corals to have a feeding response, but the consumed food is purely bacterial. Without the right food particle (host) size, there is no feeding response. Without the bacterial coating there is no nutrient uptake. This might explain why people report seeing their nps corals display polyp extension and what looks like feeding responses, but yet the coral starves to death anyways.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


The formation, composition, and behavior of macro-aggregates (aka "marine snow") as they enter and exit various biogeochemical pathways is actually quite interesting. I put this one together a while ago ...

The "Mulm" Thread
(Z, GaryWhite, 03.19.2006)
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5770

The reference article listing for the thread is here:
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?p=64798#post64798


While many of the image links were broken a couple of years ago as a result of a database "upgrade", they are still embedded in the article that is referenced ... a few moments to take a look may be worth the effort. Some of them are way cool, for example ...

http://www.zeovit.com/photopost/data/500/msnow1.jpg
A well-colonized macro-aggregate.

http://www.zeovit.com/photopost/data/500/plume1.jpg
Model of amino acids leaching from a macro-aggregate.


FWIW ... :D



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12007436#post12007436 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by airinhere
... I am thinking that perhaps a certain size of food is required for the nps corals to have a feeding response, ... Without the right food particle (host) size, there is no feeding response. Particle size, flow rate, and chemical signals have all been documented to be involved with a feeding response.



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12007436#post12007436 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by airinhere
... but the consumed food is purely bacterial. ... While I want to be there in the car with you on this ... I have found no evidence for this whatsoever. Even so, there's little doubt that bacterioplankton contribute to some fraction of the energy budget. How much remains a very open question.



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12007436#post12007436 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by airinhere
... Without the bacterial coating there is no nutrient uptake... My data mining expeditions during the last few years have yielded nothing which would directly support this kind of an assertion. However, there's no question that bacterial action might make nutrients available (which would not otherwise be available absent bacterial action). Association with free-living bacteria from the water column isn't required ... the bacteria living in the gastric cavity are adequate to the task.



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12007436#post12007436 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by airinhere
... This might explain why people report seeing their nps corals display polyp extension and what looks like feeding responses, ... I would suggest that we need to be careful when asserting anything remotely resembling an explanation, after all ... many environmental variables ... many chemical signals & triggers ... much genetic diversity across a range of species ... much specialized adaptation across a wide range of geographic source locations.

Such a dizzying combination of variables does not make for good anecdotal correlations. Even so, I'm totally stoked with the way this multi-year conversation is finally evolving ... and I can't wait to see how the patterns sort themselves out as more folks begin dabbling with Chuck's method.


Consider ...

50,000 cells/mL Threshold
Continuous
Phytoplankton
Zooplankton
Non-zero phosphates
Carbon Dosing
Free-living bacteria & biofilm remnants
76 Degrees Fahrenheit
8-10 cm/s

Read those nine "things we think we know now" and reflect on the discussion of the last four years.









Extraordinary ... nothing less than freakin' extraordinary ... JMO
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Kreeger1]

76 degrees Fahrenheit :)

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12008357#post12008357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kreeger1
76 degrees Fahrenheit :)
Ouch ... good catch ... correction made ... :D

Thanks! :thumbsup:

[Whalehead9]

mesocosm, I agree with all that you said. I just want to state that Chuck method involves a separate chamber with air bubbling into it that the phyto and rotifers are placed where they are refilled every twelve hours. This is not necessarily a sterile environment. There has to be film associated with that kind of feeding. Is that good or bad? This is the question.

Most prepared long term phyto mixes don't do much but add PO4 and NO3. But Stuff that can go bad over time work better. I wonder if the preservatives added to the ineffective coral foods is their downfall. DT and Reed have a shelf life and do go bad which suggests that Biofilms do occur. It could be inferred that the syringe pump might not be an ideal feeding instrument, because it cannot form the same density of biofilms. Now in time the introduced food will accumulate the biofilms as free floating bacteria begin to break the cells down, but there would be lag time before that happens. It could possibly keep the tank cleaner and that could be a major factor.

Maybe this is a moot point, but maybe all roads do lead to Rome and I am just running in circles.

I am trying to figure out why chucks system is the magic tank. I feel like Spike Lee yelling "Its gotta Be the FOOD. Money money money."(It's an old Nike Commercial) Somehow I am not satisfied with the answer just do what I do I want to know why it works.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12008662#post12008662 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whalehead9
mesocosm, I agree with all that you said. I just want to state that Chuck method involves a separate chamber with air bubbling into it that the phyto and rotifers are placed where they are refilled every twelve hours.

Now I'm confused, I thought Chuck used the syringe pump?

At any rate in that method, are they just mixed together, diluted with something, or bubbled in their own seperate container?

I'm just trying to figure out what this method entails so I can duplicate it here and see what our scientists can find out about it :) I'd love to see some pics of the feed thru out the 12 hour period.

The media in RF is just alginate and seawater really. There's A couple acids (citric, ascorbic, sorbic & proprionic) in it. The alginate is what I keep saying is a great bacterial food source. Likewise with glycerine based products, like Brine Shrimp Direct or liquid Life products.

[Whalehead9]

The quote from this months article written by Charles Matthews states: "Chuck Stottlemire feeds 100 mls of a commercial algae concentrate (Reed Mariculture's Shellfish Diet) and 40 mls of concentrated rotifers ("RotiFeast") via continuous infusion (half of each is diluted in two gallons and administered q 12 hours via drip by peristaltic pump and airline agitation in the container, no cooling mechanism used) in a 180-gallon reef tank (which overflows to a total system volume ~500 gallons for dilution)."

Charles Matthews has been talking about the syringe pump, because it works easier.

[Kreeger1]

No syringe pump in chuck's system, I've seen the tank a dozen times give or take.
Atleast theres a place for all to meet now to compare stories and ideas!
Erik

[airinhere]

So would it be safe to say that nps corals might be using bacterial actions instead of photosynthetic actions to gather their needed nutrition?

SPS corals use the waste products of photosynthesis for growth and the lowered ph enviroment the photosynthesis creates provides an enviroment where calcium carbonate is able to be used to create new skeletal structure.

Is there any similar type of internal mechanism that nps corals have to break down their food source to be used to grow? If its not internal (symbiotic or part of the coral itself) then perhaps the bacteria is providing that activity for the coral.

It seems we are trying to figure out what foods to directly feed the corals but might need to address digestion and utilization of those foods more directly.

Just trying to think outside the box.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12009003#post12009003 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whalehead9
The quote from this months article written by Charles Matthews states: "Chuck Stottlemire feeds 100 mls of a commercial algae concentrate (Reed Mariculture's Shellfish Diet) and 40 mls of concentrated rotifers ("RotiFeast") via continuous infusion (half of each is diluted in two gallons and administered q 12 hours via drip by peristaltic pump and airline agitation in the container, no cooling mechanism used) in a 180-gallon reef tank (which overflows to a total system volume ~500 gallons for dilution)."

Charles Matthews has been talking about the syringe pump, because it works easier.

Diluted with 2 gallons of tank water, is that drawn straight from the tank? Meaning, full of tank bacteria at reef temp?

You know I've read the article a few times, I don't know why I keep missing that. I guess it's due to me getting stuck on how Roti-Feast is spelled :lol:

[charles matthews]

Charles Matthews here.

I agree with kolognekoral and others that Dendros don't seem to take bacteria. Fabricius commented on this by gut analysis (she noted no prokaryotes, even though they were an order of magnitude more common). Also, lots of evidence that bacterial levels per se are elevated in our marine systems (Harker, Tyree, others). I don't think they take bacteria. And it's clear that refugiums by themselves have failed to be effective; it's the end of the deep sand bed era, in one sense- or at least the edge of its effectiveness. I've come to believe that a sand bed can in some ways be competitive with some of these organisms by advecting particles. I've not been impressed with the results of stirring- and Lord knows, I've done it so many ways...

On the other hand, Dendros do seem to respond to wiping the film off the side of the glass. Delbeek remarked on this too. Chuck has said to me that he uses vodka to stimulate copepod production. Increases of vodka do produce increases of the "white slime" bacteriofilms and their associated micrograzers and algal films. I would also point out that pushing vodka,to culture an algal film, along with iodine and silicate, are ways one could experiment with aquaculture of these organisms. Whether it can take the place of direct feeding is unknown to me. I currently have an unfiltered 55 gallon bare bottom tank with a flourescent strip light running continuously as an experiment to see if I can keep some clones just by wiping the glass on an unfiltered tank with no sand bed. In some ways, this setup is like some of Steve Tyree's sponge tanks; however, he didn't follow nutrient levels. (He tried Dendronephthya and failed). It will be interesting to train an algal film on the sides of the tank and scrup this into the water and see how we do, keeping detectable nutient levels of silica, nitrate, and (low but detectable) phosphate. I also now am working on an algal film reactor with beads in my 500 gallon system.

One interesting observation that Chuck and I have both made- feeding in this manner seems to strongly prevent algae in the tank, in spite of fairly good lighting in my system (4 T5 lamps over a 120 gallon). With nitrate15 and phosphate 2ppm now, there is absolutely no detectable algae. The algal/bacteriofilm (fed by vodka, silica, iodine) sloughs easily, and possibly outcompete nuisance algae forms. There are probably strong micrograzer populations too. But for whatever reason, these heavily fed systems are curiously "algae proof".

As Chuck has said, the continuous feeding with that mixture is probably what's really different here. I'd like to see more folks set up a small system plumbed into their reefs for experimenting with these organisms. The syringe pump (syringepump.com, $275) has been a Godsend to me for convenience of continuous feeding. I have failed in so many other previous attempts that it is not funny.

Chuck pointed out to me that we are still missing something since sexual reproduction has not been observed. I propose that the first one to document this on film inherit the title of "Dark Lord" from Chuck- unless of course Chuck gets there first.

Thanks everybody for your work. I certainly am excited to participate in this group. No question, this is where the fun is happening!

[Whalehead9]

"Increases of vodka do produce increases of the "white slime" bacteriofilms and their associated micrograzers and algal films. "

This reminds me of another thread that I have been following. People useing vitamin C to help their zoos. They better growth of algae covering the walls, while all of their nuisance algae slowly died off. I Think that the Vitamin C breaks down after a time and turns into a carbon source that bacteria can eat. they all say that their skimmers work much better than before. I don't know I'm just trying to pull common threads together to see what happens.

[Whalehead9]

" I agree with kolognekoral and others that Dendros don't seem to take bacteria."

Charles, if chuck's tank was nothing but Dendro's then I would agree and the discussion would end, but Chuck's tank is not just dendro's. In fact it is everything that for years we have been told not to buy because it will die. Sponges, Gorgs, sun corals, sea apples, tunicates, fan worms, and Croinoids are all in this tank. I think that we have assumed that the Dendros are all that have become all important, but what about everything else! I mean he has a feather star!(My holy grail, One dendro would be cool, but not as cool as a feather star) Does nothing else eat bacteria? Does everything just eat phyto and rotiifers? Charles are you having the same diversity explosion that Chuck is having? Because that is the NPS tank that I want to achieve.

[Kolognekoral]

To say that phyto is the answer was not the question. (does that make sense?) The fact that Dendronephthya require phyto does not preclude other organisms. My feather star certainly responded to zooplankton and bacteria (can't be really sure with the bac). Scleronephthya seem to be omnivorous while most gorgonians zooplankton takers. A mixed aquarium will require a mixed feed. (or did I misunderstand your understanding?)

Reeds shellfish is mainly phyto, as it is composed of different strains of micro algae. Rotifers are zooplankton, which makes the mix logical to me.

On the subject of Crinoids, the green-white striped Dichrometra species are relatively easy to keep. I had one for over 8 months, befor I accidentally damaged it with a siphon :sad1: , but they are maintainable. The finer red species seem to require a different food. Possibly they are dependant on bacteria?
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/147577Featherstar2_edit.jpg

[Whalehead9]

I don't want to sound like bad guy, this is not meant to be a flame war at all and if anybody reads that into this, just know that I have the flu and sit at home and scour reef central in a fever pitched haze for the last three days. All I want to say is that Chuck did the impossible. Not just dendros, but all NPS everything. Its amazing. Absolutely amazing. I'm envious as hell. I want it. But before I put all my effort into it I want to understand it better.

I know that the phyto and the rotifers are the main food sources, bu the beginning of this thread was about Probiotics and the effects of new and various strain of bacteria that can produce a healthy NPS system. Whether vodka dosing creates enough bacteria for smaller pods and other thign to grow that indirectly feed the corals. If phyto and rotifers stewing in a bubbly salt water mix gets inoculated with other microorganisms that the corals and inverts take up. I will concede the Dendro point, but a diversity of microflora and microfauna has to be developed by this kind of husbandry, to develop the kind of larger organisms displayed in this tank.

[Kolognekoral]

Sorry to hear about the flu! i had it a few weeks ago and I was miserable. Anyway, no flame intended or taken.

I think a lot of people misunderstand the carbon dosing method. It is not going to provide enough bacteria in most cases. It is geared to control of ammonia-nitrates and phosphates. The fact that it produces a bacterial film is more of a plus factor, not a main factor. That said, I am sure it could be tweeked to a level whereby it does provide an adequate amount of bacteria to feed a small number of bacteriovores. Although it is not stated in the article directly, I took it as simply a booster effect that made the general system more effective and productive. Maybe I've assumed something, here. Maybe part to will ellucidate the theme.

I remain open on the question of what food and in what quantites we require for NPC systems. In the end, each aquarium will have certain focuses of animals which will dictate the nutrition. As I am currently focusing on Scleronephthya and gorgonians with a few Tubastrea, I think I will need to come up with a consistent and balanced diet. The bacteria and bio-film are not really a major component of my planned dietary regiem. They are the frosting, so to say.

Rest and drink lots of fluids.

[Kreeger1]

When feeding the tanks as we do, were also feeding tons of little living pods, mysis shrimp, cope pods ect in the tank that live and breed in the aquarium. I know first hand that chuck's tank is packed with life. All kinds of things going in and out of rocks, swimming in the water and everything inbetween. I'd bet a good portion of food intake by his corals comes from the breeding of these pods in his tank. Not sure how much, but you've got to figure a tank teaming with live has to feed the non photo stuff he's keeping. Sort of the food we feed the tank feeds the creatures in the tank which then feeds the corals we keep....to some extent
Erik

[Stottlemire]

First Whalehead9,

If crinoids are what you want to keep. I have kept them for quite a while, but until this article came to light know one realy noticed. Crinoids like to be feed phyto, and one day old baby brine shrimp. My oldest crinoid is 3 years old. I have 7 crinoids now. My oldest basketstar is 4 years old. I have 5 of these.
It was my crinoids that I kept that got me thinking of taking on this tank. 2 years I collected different papers on attemps to keep these animals before I tried. The system that I set up was part of a 6 year old acro system. I added the 180 gallon tank, I then took down the 120 gallon acro tank. my 180 ran for over a month in line with my astablished system. Like you guys when I started I thought bacteria was a good food, so I started adding vodka from the begining before any animals were added. I now realize that its not as much bateria, But the out of control zoo population that comes from the affects of the vodka. Plus the crazy amount of Reed Mariculture food I feed.
I hope this makes sense
Chuck

[miwoodar]

Stellar thread. I'm holding my breath until someone else posts so you had better make it quick!

It's going to take me a while to go through the linked threads. Hopefully I will be able to ask some meaningful questions afterwards.

[beez]

Hi guys,

I'm obviously behind on the NPS learning curve compared to you all, so forgive me if this is a stupid question. If one wants to generate bacterial biofilm as a food source for NPS corals, isn't this something that could be accomplished to a greater extent in a chamber seperate from the aquarium system?

For instance, could one use a container that is dosed with a carbon source and household ammonia/decaying organic matter that contains stones or some other surface for bacterial growth that could be shaken into the aquarium like the zeo rocks?

Or am I missing something? :p

[Whalehead9]

The great debate about it is whether or not it is needed. I have come to the conclusion that a bacteria growth is key to a zoo population, which in turn feeds pods and other small inverts to help a healthy tank. But primarily the additions of vodka are a source to reduce Nitrate and PO4. With high food inputs it is very helpful.

[sammy33]

Just a follow up. There is a new "method" for maintaining ULNS. This is the NeoZeo method from Brightwell Aquatics. A microbe/enzyme and carbon source style system with the zeo stones and a group of supplements to feed corals and influence colors.

The neozeo manual is 18 pages and has an interesting section regarding NPS coral care - from Brightwell:

Before moving on, we would like to briefly mention an observation that may be of
considerable interest to a number of reef enthusiasts. Our research systems house a
diverse assemblage of corals and their allies, including several colonies of Tubastraea
sp. (“sun polyps”). For those unfamiliar with these corals, they are azooxanthellate and
feed on zooplankton and particulate organic matter captured by their tentacles (which
are, in most reef aquaria, extended only at night or near “dusk”); as such, these corals
require feeding if they are to survive in captivity over the long term. In our systems,
however, we have opted not to target feed them; rather, they receive dissolved
organic material provided by dosing Vîtamarin-C, Vîtamarin-M, CoralAminô, Restôr,
MicrôBacter7, and Reef BioFuel. The interesting observation that we have made comes
with regards to the growth of these Tubastraea colonies: they continually grow and
reproduce. This observation suggests that the corals are obtaining sufficient organic
material of the proper molecular composition to not only survive, but also to
reproduce. Future experimentation of this “technique” with anemones and
azooxanthellate soft corals and corallimorpharians is planned, and we will publish the
results on our website.

Interesting.